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Explain Romans 3:4

Romans 3:4 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Is every man a liar, be looked at as a liar or is there some other meaning? Please explain.

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 ---TheSeg on 7/25/11
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Paul, consider the source. Markv has manifested that he is not Christianed, but rather a proven sinner. Therefore he does not share the mind of Christ as we do, but instead his mind is still without Christ and lacks the discernment which comes from God. Not until he becomes born-again will he become part of our family and engrafted into our body, and until then his thinking is ungodly and his judgments are erroneous even as he is sinuous.
---Eloy on 8/4/11


Seg part 1

With all due respect you are not very good at debate, you try to simply throw another scripture into the mix which you feel is combating the prior premise.

With little to no explanation from you it is hard sometimes to attempt to figure out exactly what point you are trying to make or disprove,

Im left in wonder often after reading your posts, I mean you no disrespect simply projecting an analysis.

The unjust judge is applicable to this how?

Eloy is correct, though God is not respect of persons He view His children John 1:12 a lot different than unbelievers. Ps 1:1-5
Pr 3:33 The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.


Paul
---paul on 8/2/11


Seg part 2
Rom 3
I dony know if its out of ignorance or malicious, but you have misrepresented this text. This is an OT quote to support the fact that under the law righteousness could not be obtained but now through Christ and faith it could be.
Ro 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

I dont know the extent of your studies but they appear to be quite rudiment which is fine, but employ. 2Tim 2:15.

Paul
---paul on 8/2/11


Mark

An unbeliever is just that, one who does not believe, why complicate it?
---paul on 8/2/11


Paul, A-men brother. sinners delight in miscontexting and misapplying verses to blaspheme and to support their sin. Romans 3:23 refers to the sinner Jew being equal to the sinner Gentile, and is in no way referring to all flesh nor blaspheming the righteous. lit. Gk: "as each sinned, indeed whoever lacking glory of God." Rom.3:23. And this verse is connected to the immediate preceeding verse 22, lit. Gk: "Even the righteousness of God by obeying Jesus Christ onto each and upon whosoever them obeying: seeing there is not a difference,... The Jew was commanded to be holy, but they joined with the sinners around them and became equal to the sinner nonJews.
---Eloy on 8/2/11




seg, A-men. sinners lack discernment, and they sinuously count all people, being the sinners and the saints, the same. However God is pristinely and crystal clear, that by each person's individual fruits that they bear we know whether or not they are converted. If it looks like a sinner, walks like a sinner, sounds like a sinner, and smells like a sinner, then indeed it is a sinner and not a Christian: "And together will be the destruction of the transgressors and the sinners, and consumed they that forsake Yhwh." Is.1:28.
---Eloy on 8/2/11


Are you a sinner right now? yes you are.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/11

Mark

This is where you and I disagree, I dont think God sees me as a sinner after conversion for I have repented and He has forgiven.

Therefore He does not see ma as a sinner, a sinners lot is hell. That is NOT MY LOT.

Why is that so tough for you to understand.

If you are still a sinner, which I don't think you are, please repent and receive salvation.

Paul
---paul on 8/2/11


There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
And a widow saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
Though I fear not God, nor regard man,
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
Hear what the unjust judge saith!

//And Eloy is correct?
It would appear that some of your guys posts indicate that you feel God sees sinners an non sinners the same.//
Rom 3:9! What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise.

//For according to your theology repented or not your always going be seen by God as a liar.//
No, according to the bible, Rom 3:10 As it is written!
1Jn_2:1 an Advocate!
---TheSeg on 8/2/11


Paul 2: God is called God because He is God. He is shown as man, crying or repenting, or with legs and arms so that we as humans can understand from a man's view. He has no arms or legs, He is never sorry of anything. He made this world and all that is in it the way He pleased. He knows every single person who will be born and what they will do with their lives before they are born. Nothing is unknown to Him. The one's that don't know is us. For we are not infinite as He is. The fundamental difference between a man of faith and the man of unbelief is, the unbeliever is of the world, and judges everything by worldly standards, views life from the standpoint of time and sense, and weights everything in the balances of his own carnal making.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/11


Paul, I want you to think. Now is God omniscient? He is. He knows everything. Are you a sinner right now? yes you are. Does God know? Yes He does. Does He see you as a sinner? Yes He does, He is not blind. You are making an arguement that God does not see your sin. He told us, "All come short of the glory of God" All people. He said that to make us understand what kind of people we are. We would be worse if He didn't restrain sin. He knows your thoughts before you commit your sin and makes provisions for it before you even act on your thoughts. You are His child. He makes sure that you will make it to the end because you are one of the Elect. Born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/11




Mark

All men are not looked upon as neighbor.

The priest was not neighbor unto him nor was the levite but only the Samaritan who showed mercy onto him.

The question of whether the Samaritan was a believer or not never came into play, but only that he had shown mercy is what defined him as such.

And Eloy is correct in saying that sinners and nonsinners are not viewed the same by God.

It would appear that some of your guys posts indicate that you feel God sees sinners an non sinners the same.

For according to your theology repented or not your always going be seen by God as a liar.

No thank You,

Paul
---paul on 8/2/11


Paul, A-men brother. It is plain also on this website on which persons are of Christ, and which persons are not of Christ, by the substance and manner of their words in which each publicly posts here for all to see.
---Eloy on 8/2/11


Paul, after posting the passages in Luke 10: concerning the parable of the good Samaritan, which really confirms what Micha said, and which Jesus commands believers to do, you then ask
"You positive of that?"
He must have been since the passages you gave proof he was. The Samaritan was an example of what believers are commanded to do.
And you agree with Eloy who is so wrong. He does not separate the one's with faith towards God, who are aquitted, and the ones that are not. He places all people under the same title. Psalm 116:11 "I said in my haste, "all men are liars"
Do you keep every command and so never sin? Then you are a liar by God's standards.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/11


-Unbelievers are not our brothers, but they are our neighbors...
---micha9344 on 8/1/1

Lu 10:36 "So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"
37 And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

You positive of that?



Eloy

Great post.

Paul
---paul on 8/1/11


The saint is not the sinner, neither is the sinner the saint. The wheat is not the tare, neither is the tare the wheat. We born-again Christians from Christ know and understand that there are both "truth-tellers" and "liars" in the world, there are "maligners" and "aligners", "dishonest" and "honest" people: Little children, be not deceived, for indeed not all people are liars, neither are all people truth-tellers: not all people are "righteous", nor are all people "sinuous". There are both good and bad people in the world, and you will know each of them by their fruits that they bear.
---Eloy on 8/1/11


Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
--Unbelievers are not our brothers, but they are our neighbors...
---micha9344 on 8/1/11


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Micha, very good passages. The point is that no one is without sin. And as for Paul, the passage the context does not say that all human's are liars. It does not have to say that. We all know everyone lies. Some might not even know they are lying, but when they give something that is not Truth no matter what they are talking about, it is a lie nevertheless. That is my point. So my argument was that while in the flesh we will sin. Sins of Ommision and sins of commision. We are forgiven sinners only because of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 8/1/11


Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
---TheSeg on 8/1/11

I think maybe I'm starting to get somewhere with this.

You see their unbelief affects Gods being the truth not one little bit.

That's why it says let God be the truth and every (unbelieving) man be a LIAR.

I don't understand why ANYONE would deduce that this passage meant that all men are liars.

And Seg, If they don't believe they are not my brother.
---paul on 8/1/11


Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
---TheSeg on 8/1/11


Forgive me, but maybe you should be looking at your brothers, and why they dont believe. Before, you start overcoming anything!
---TheSeg on 8/1/11

I'm sorry Seg but I find it hard to follow your logic.

All of my brothers do believe or they would not be my brothers in Christ.

And I have overcame through Christ and His Blood, the Word of my testimony and not loving my life unto death.

And that is why I'm not seen as a LIAR which is my original premise.

Is that what you were asking?

Paul
---paul on 8/1/11


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Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
1Jo 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
---micha9344 on 8/1/11


Paul, The Seg is correct. What you fail to see is that you overcome because of Christ. And you are not counted with a debt because Christ paid for it. The glory goes to Christ for helping you overcome. You are not saved because you overcame. You overcame because of Christ. And Rev. 21:8 speaks of those who did not overcome, who didn't have Christ to help them overcome and so not forgiven, because by the deeds of the law no one can be saved. Salvation is only through Christ. Overcoming is also only through Christ. The whole picture of the believer is to give the glory to Christ. And to thank Him and honor Him as God. ( Romans 1:21).
---Mark_V. on 8/1/11


Matthew 24:11_13: "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Endure and overcome are used quite extensively.
---Nana on 8/1/11


Im confused, here Paul.
If God draw you, give you faith, put the true in front of you, die for you and forgive you! What did you overcome?
Besides, you only believe it, because, he gave you the true! Again, what did you do!
Forgive me, but maybe you should be looking at your brothers, and why they dont believe. Before, you start overcoming anything!
---TheSeg on 8/1/11


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Re 21:6-8


Scripture is teaching us that to those who overcame were not counted among these disobedient ones.

1Tim 1:5-16

This has been the premise of my argument the entire time, once you have overcome the curse Gal 3:10-13 of sin through and by Jesus blood . Rev 12:11 you are no longer viewed by God Heb 10:10 as a liar, murderer, sexually immoral etc.

I am not saying we are sinless 1John 1:8 but that we are not under the curse which pronounces us guilty. 1John 1:9
We are under the blood of the new covenant which declares us justified by Christs righteous deeds. Rom 5:8-9

Paul
---paul on 7/31/11


Reba, great answer. Carnal, in the Grk. is "Sarkikos" which literally means "flesh" This discriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in ( 1 Cor. 3:1-3). in this passage Apostle Paul is addressing the "brethern" referring to Christians. He goes on to describe them as "carnal." The key here is, while a Christian can be carnal, for a time, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some I see abuse the idea of a carnal Christian by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to a live the rest of their lives in complete carnal manner, which really is no evidence of being born again or new creation ( 2 Cor. 5:17).
---Mark_V. on 7/31/11


Are these words true?
This world had a beginning, and it will have an end!

Some say everything, must be done before the end!
Because, if we wait for the end. It will be too late!
As some have said Rev. 21,8!
There must be some way to make a clear distinction!
As to whom they are, and who we are.
As said the apostles 1Jn_2:19!

You still dont believe this! So, when will you at the end?
As it is written!
Rom 3:10-12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

See, you still dont believe it!
So maybe, when its to late?
Thats, why Christ said Rev 1:8!
Peace!
---TheSeg on 7/31/11


Rev. 21,8 Is talking about the unsaved. As long as we are human we are going to sin. But the unbelievers are habitual sinners. Christians may sin but they do not live in that sin. They repent & leave it. They DO NOT practice a lifestyle of sin. A born again believer is human therefore may tell a lie. However, they will repent & they will not practice lying. When God looks at you, does He see your works(sins) or does He see the righteousness of Christ? That's the difference between a liar & a Child of God.
---Reba on 7/30/11


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Paul, if there is no exception, then everyone goes to hell. I know I'm not. I have hope in Christ. And, I'm not lying right now. I have the Truth. God tells us (believers)
"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." Only those saved have the Word, (Christ). If I claim I have not sinned I make God a liar. we are the sinners, not God.
And "If we say that we have not sin, we deceive ourselves, (and hear this, talking to believers) and the Truth (Christ) is not in us"
We are in Christ and have to admit sin. Listen to what he says, "My little children, (believers) these things I write to you, so that you may not sin" why? because we do.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/11


All liars who are not redeemed go to hell.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/11

Mark
My Bible gives no exceptions, it simply says ALL LIARS.

Re 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
---paul on 7/30/11


Paul, you said,
"But to say we are liars is to say we are hell bound, for all liars go to hell."
All liars who are not redeemed go to hell. Just as all sinners not redeemed also go to hell. Christ only forgives sinners. Even Paul said, "It is not I that sins, but sin that is in me" His sinful nature was still with him and has not been redeemed, the reason it dies. For we don't have two natures, we have one, and a new creation. Only Jesus Christ had two natures, one human which was sinless, and one Godly nature. We only have one nature which is sinful. There would be no warnings to Christians about sin if sin did not exist in the believer. But before God we do count ourselves righteous.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/11


Paul 2, We are forgiven sinners. We are not in bondage to sin as the lost. Everything they do is sin no matter how great it looks to us, because without faith it is sin before God. All believers have a choice, walk in the spirit or walk in the flesh (carnally). Christians who become carnal at times in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Heb. 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close relationship with Him and be trained to obey Him. In the passage in (1 Cor. 3:1-3) Here Paul spoke to Christians and describe them as carnal. But Christians do not remain carnal, for James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/11


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2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We are not imputed we are the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

This was not possible with the Old Covenant, but when Christ became sin for us abolishing sin in the flesh once and for all, and for all, we are now righteous through Christ Jesus.

If their are those who desire not to claim this promise I have no problem with them.

Where I have a problem is when people chastise me for grabbing a hold of this precious promise.

Does this mean I am sinless, no, it means I am in right standing with God "Righteous"

Paul
---paul on 7/30/11


JOhn, You presume that you know better than the truth because you refuse to study the truth and remain in darkness, then you feebly mock a spirit filled man whom has spent 3 decades in serving Jesus and translating his holy scriptures. Not all English translations are wholly inacurrate. Some of the mistranslated words that I find in the KJV are accurately translated in the Geneva Bible and William Tyndale's Bible. So before you foolishly condemn yourself by mocking the righteous, do your homework and know the truth before you bring dissing opposing the those of us whom have researched and do know the truth.
---Eloy on 7/30/11


Markv, "are imputed the righteousness of Christ, we don't become righteous. We are declared righteous only because of Christ. Remove that righteousness and nothing but filth is there. 1 John 1:8 is very clear. "if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us" How more clear can that be? Claim no sin in us, no truth is in us." well said. I agree.
---chria9396 on 7/30/11


That is another mistranslation. The greek word.....
---Eloy on 7/29/11

So for over 2000 years of the worlds best minds/scholars. Literally millions of them. And they had it wrong.

BUTT Mr. Eloy in his infinite wisdom got the Greek right!

LOL!!!!!

How silly are we today!
---John on 7/30/11


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That is another mistranslation. The greek word "pas" not only means "all", but also means "each" or "individual" depending on the context oif use. Therefore, lit.Gk: "Engender this not! but come to be God whom true, and individual persons erring, according as it has been written, So that you can be justified in them words of you, and you victorious in the judgment." Romans 3:4.
---Eloy on 7/29/11


When someone says they are not sinners, that to me tells me he is claiming he is without sin,
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11

That is not at all what I am saying, I know we all sin and come short.

What I am saying is that if we confess our sins he cleanses us of our sins, thus making us redeemed from sin and walking in His righteousness which is our only justification.

But to say we are liars is to say we are hell bound, for all liars go to hell.

But by no means do I say I am sinless, just forgiven and viewed by God as such.
Paul
---paul on 7/29/11


The Seg, you are right again. Actually there is about four people now who claim to be sinless. One I know wants to be identified with Christ and leave the flesh out. But we are still here. And as I said before, we are imputed the righteousness of Christ, we don't become righteous. We are declared righteous only because of Christ. Remove that righteousness and nothing but filth is there. 1 John 1:8 is very clear. "if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us" How more clear can that be? Claim no sin in us, no truth is in us. Thank you brother, peace
---Mark_V. on 7/29/11


You know mark, so many people talk about sin.
But I can help looking at the law given to Moses, by God.
About adultery, and how them, caught! Should be stoned to death!
But when Christ was asked, about it! How he replied to them, well to all of us.
Most of all is the lesson, one should be taking from this.
Was it about keeping the law? I would think after so many years.
One would see the truth, but no! To this day I see people enforcing the law.
Over the forgiveness of God! It has never been about the law!
So, when someone walks up to me, and said I am Sinless!
I know what their really saying is.
I believe!
Peace!
---TheSeg on 7/29/11


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The Seg, very good points you made. I also do not believe anyone is sinless. Even the smallest of sins is still done. God knew this would be if we remained in our unredeemed bodies. He planned it that way. Otherwise He would have redeemed our bodies also. Yet if we remained here, with the world, we were bound to sin. Unless we were robots walking around holy. What I meant was that when a person is truely saved, spiritually, not physically, he is one body in Christ. And if that person dies, the Spirit goes to be with God. The spirit needs to be holy to enter the presence of God.
---Mark_V. on 7/29/11


Mark, believe I know. But, I look at two things here.
A man who does not believe all men are liar.
A man who believe he is sinless.
Sinless, to me mean you never committed sin.
He said, the truth is not in man!

Because I stand in Christ it does mean, I have never sin. Sinless!
It means I was forgiven not I was sinless!
Shouldn't we always speak the truth?
Where is the truth in saying I am sinless?
Rightly said, it should be, I've been forgiven!
Not, I am! Only one person can say I am!

And if I can remember my sins, am I sinless?
2Pe_1:8-9
The Lord speaks of a day. Where he says, Heb_8:12!
Till that day, mark!
Peace!


---TheSeg on 7/28/11


The Seg, as for the passage, "every man a liar" In the context of these passages, it concerns the promises of God. If all mankind were to agree that God had been unfaithful to His promises, it would only prove that all are liars and God is True (Titus 1:1). God will fulfill all His promises He made to the nation.
What I believe though about lying, is that all have lied and most everyone still does in some way are another. We are declared righteous by the imputation of Christ righteousness, we don't become righteous.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11


Paul, I believe where the misunderstanding is, the spiritual and the physical.
Spiritually we are sinless baptized into one body in Christ. Physically we are still sinners in need of Christ everyday. When someone says they are not sinners, that to me tells me he is claiming he is without sin, which is not true. We all lie and commit sins day in and day out. So we are not sinless. When we sin in the physical it effects our spiritual. 1 Cor. 6:11-20 explains this. We were bought by Christ, and our bodies do not belong to us anymore. We are one body in Christ spiritually. When two come together we become one, spiritually.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11


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/All men have possibly lied but once repented of you are no longer known as a liar by God.
paul on 7/25/11//

Seg

Maybe Bill is right in saying all we have is a misunderstanding.

Happy birthday by the way, and my hand is OK, surgery Thur morn.

I don't know that all men have lied for I don't know all men.

However due to the fallen nature of man it is likely.

I agree with that, where I disagree is saying that we are still labeled and viewed as liars by God after repentance.

We are no longer known as liars then, we are known as Gods righteousness.
Not liars whose lot is hell.

But according to David their is no hell so maybe liars will be ok. lol
---paul on 7/27/11


There you go again! You are not saying your lies are forgiveness.
You are saying, where is a man out there that has not lied.
Big difference!

So, I guess I'll just have to be satisfied, with your post
//All men have possibly lied but once repented of you are no longer known as a liar by God.
paul on 7/25/11//
By the way thank you this was my birthday!

Anyway Paul
How is the hand?
---TheSeg on 7/27/11


Where is God, Christ or forgiveness, in your words? Nowhere!
But, you simply saying it a view or an opinion.
This is where I said:
All men are liar!

---TheSeg on 7/27/11

Seg what exactly is your point?
Does it matter how or why you saisd it?

You said ALL men are liars which I said you cant back up in the scriptures, and you cant for it is not their.

What is the big deal?

It is you opinion, why cant you just accept that and move on.

This is not personal, you made a statement which involved me, I called you on it, and you cant back it up.

No big deal, still love you like a brother, no need for pettiness.

Paul
---paul on 7/27/11


Just so, were clear, on what was said.

//Paul- Hypocrisy is sin and that's what I called it. But for the Christian, I believe it often IS unintentional.
---Donna66 on 7/18/11

I understand hypocrisy is sin just as adultery or lying but I don't say everyone but Jesus is a liar or an adulterer.
We are not all hypocrites and their is not NT Bible for that, which makes it a view or an opinion.
Paul on 7/18/11 What Is A Hypocrite Blog//

Where is God, Christ or forgiveness, in your words? Nowhere!
But, you simply saying it a view or an opinion.

This is where I said:
All men are liar!

//...Then is this not insincerity,pretense,duplicity and two-facedness?
OrHypocrisy!
---TheSeg on 7/21/11//
---TheSeg on 7/27/11


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Hey kid!
---TheSeg on 7/27/11

Seg

Is this intended for me?

Assuming it is, why are you resorting to immature name calling?

Is this a default answer, you started this thread to attempt to get people to agree with you which has not worked.

I can appreciate proofing a topic by our peers but at the end of the day it is not about opinion of man

It is about the Word of God which you have failed to use to substantiate your point that all men are liars.

So why take such a juvenile approach to play the brother offended and wont hear card.
What is my offense that would render me as a heathen man and a publican.
Because I question you for calling me a liar which is a damnable offense.

---paul on 7/27/11


Hey kid!
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
---TheSeg on 7/27/11


Seg and Mark,

Paul, as I read his posts is saying God does not see him as a sinner any longer, therefore by Christs righteousness, sinless. I don't see him saying he doesn't have to ask forgiveness when he sins, or hope not, because that is a thing Jesus taught in his model of how we address God in our prayers. There is a vast difference in committing sin, as we all do, and practicing sin, or better said, living to fulfill our sinful desires. It doesn't seem Seg there is a disagreement just misunderstanding what is being said.
---willa5568 on 7/26/11



So, why would you want to ask someone.
Who has clearly (I think) admitted to you!
He is a sinner, anything.
---TheSeg on 7/26/11


Seg

I asked you to illustrate to you that you do not have an answer, for your statement is factually inaccurate therefore it has no answer.

Which obviously you have figured out, I think the lack of an answer on your part says it all.

Just in case I will ask you one last time,

If ALL men are liars, which you say they are.
And all liars have their place in the lake of fire, which they do.

Then why did Christ die, and who will make it to heaven.

And for the record I am not sinless, I'm forgiven which allows me to be a Child of God, not a sinner.
---paul on 7/26/11


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Seg

If you have not seen any truth in my posts then you my friend dont know much truth.

To use your scripture to illustrate my point.
1Jo 1:8-9

You see I said I have had sin so I am not deceiving myself, the latter part of this fine text determines that upon confession of our sins He cleanses us of it, which makes us His righteousness, not sinners.

I am not saying that I am perfect or have reached perfection, what I am saying is that I am not a sinner who practices sin.

God calls me His child, not a sinner,

Again, If you are a sinner repent and follow Christ for salvation.


Mark
I think you know what Im saying is true.
---paul on 7/26/11


here we go again: sinful...sinless.

I can guaranty, I am guilty of all of these (except one...but in my mind...therefore guilty)

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

most are past...some are present. since i am biased and we all live in pretense, i am not the judge of myself.

when you meet me, i hope you witness in me what the Spirit offers: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
---aka on 7/26/11


Paul
You have made it clear you are not a sinner!

So, why would you want to ask someone.
Who has clearly (I think) admitted to you!
He is a sinner, anything. As you told me:
//you must bare the fruits of a sinner to be one in God's eyes.//
These are the first true words I have heard from you!
1Jn_1:8-9

Rom_3:25- for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,
1Ti_1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation!
Why say, I am and not, I was?

And what of That day?
2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive
2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred!

One last thing!
I am still persuaded!
Rom 8:36 As it is written...
---TheSeg on 7/26/11


Paul, I was surprise to hear what you just posted. You seem to imply, as some two or three have, that you are sinless. Is that what you are saying? I sure hope not. You do realize that God only saves sinners, do you not? Are you a sinner? If you are, then Christ has forgiven you. If you claim you are not, then there is no salvation for you. We are forgiven sinners. We are not perfected yet, but are being transformed day by day through sanctification by the Spirit. If you are not a sinner, then you don't need sanctification or to take up your cross, you have arrived.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/11


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Seg

I assure you I have been form poverty to prison to the pulpit and without a doubt realize I have broken so many commandments that God probably had to invent some to cover my perverted past.

However when i gave it all to Him and He forgave me that it was all behind me, I am not a sinner I am a Child of the most High and enjoy His forgiveness, past, present and future.

So how can I be a sinner if I have been forgiven of my sins, you must bare the fruits of a sinner to be one in God's eyes.

If your bearing the fruits of a sinner you'd do well to repent and live for Christ.

And again, If all liars go to hell, and they do, how can an Heir of Heaven be a liar?

Paul
---paul on 7/26/11


Mima

Which of these should make me feel I am guilty of being a liar, adulterer and murderer?

Mt 5:6

Mt 5:8
Mt 5:19

Whoever does and teaches shall be called great, so you can do and keep them.

Is once a sinner always a sinner your take, because the Bible teaches once your forgiven you are no longer guilty, so why do you attempt to be again?

Scripture teaches those who stole steal no more, go and sin no more.

All those you listed carry the penalty of hell so how can you be any of those and be an heir to the kingdom.

It cant be, if you say you can please provide scriptures or admit it is your opinion.

What kind of Child of God remains to be any of those things?
---paul on 7/26/11


mima
I have met very few people who have said the words you wrote.
I also believe if a person would really look at himself or herself. With a truth-filled eye, they would also see your words. I believe very few would ever have the heart to look at themselves, as having broken all.

I am one who believes I have broken all. This is why I feel as thought. I can take any hand or any foot that is attached it to my body, and still be able to esteem it better then myself.

1Co_12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

God Bless
---TheSeg on 7/26/11


paul, you asked a question and then answered your own question. You know that only through Christ can you be saved. For the simple reason that you are forgiven. God knows that in the flesh you would still sin, for He left us here with an unredeemed flesh. Knowing the struggles we would have, is the reason He commands us to be godly. The one who has come to Christ for spiritual completion is then trained by the Word to discern truth from error and holy behavior from unholy (2 Tim. 3:16,17). "Repentance from dead works" is an Old T. form of repentance and is turning away from evil deeds that brought death and no salvation, but we have moved forward in Christ to who did the perfect works on our behalf.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/11


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Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar

Just because some do not believe God: His promises, his laws, his statues, does not make the word of God on none effect. It means that they are telling lies, and God will be true according to all his word
---francis on 7/26/11


Not only is ever man a liar but everyman is also an adulterer and a murderer. I call your attention to the book of Matthew Chapter 5. If after reading the words of Jesus there you still think you're not guilty of all these sins you might be in for a surprise!! But not a pleasant one!
---mima on 7/26/11


//Is every man a liar, be looked at as a liar or is there some other meaning?//

i think this verse along with the verses around it is a comparison. let God be true, and every man a liar when it comes to judgement.

in the other category...we live in pretense until the Lord comes.
---aka on 7/26/11


You keep talking about fire and brimstone. To who Paul, me?
You think I'm afraid of sinning? I am a sinner!
You like so many, seem to think God is your enemy, and not your savior.
---TheSeg on 7/25/11


Seg

Will you answer this question?

If all liars go to hell, and they do.
And all men are liars, which you say.

Then why did Christ die and who is going to heaven.

And I don't see Christ as my enemy, what an absurd assessment.

He is my savior who has saved me from my lies.
My redeemer who has redeemed me from my lies
My sustainer who keeps me in the truth.

I can assure you I have told the truth to my own ruin and the ruin of those around me.

---paul on 7/25/11


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Paul,

I think you and theseg are in agreement. He is saying we have all lied, so we are condemned without having the righteousness of God. And you are saying "liars", as the verse you used, are those who practice lying just as a drunkard does not have a drink but lives in drunkeness. I may be wrong, but that is how I have taken what you both have written. Maybe I'm wrong though?

Gods peace and grace
---willa5568 on 7/25/11


TheSeg, what is it that Scripture says you find so hard to understand and more importantly belief?

The keywords to your doubt in Romans 3:4, "every man a liar" is without any exception. That is simply put, no man that was/is/is to come is exempted from this declaration.

It's either you call God a liar for declaring this or you belief in His Word that "every man" are indeed liars. It's as clear as day and night.
---christan on 7/25/11


What Paul is saying is simply this: "What God says is to be believed above anything man says."
---Bruce5656 on 7/25/11


Paul, God bless you man!
All men have possibly lied. Not definitely? Who Gandhi.
I never met him, nor do I really know anything about him.
But, I know he lied.

You keep talking about fire and brimstone. To who Paul, me?
You think I'm afraid of sinning? I am a sinner!
You like so many, seem to think God is your enemy, and not your savior.
You think by me calling, absolutely everyone a liar, I am condemning them.
No, Paul!

I would rather you go before God thinking you are a liar, and be found to be truthful. Then for you to go before God thinking you are truthful, and be found to be a liar.
Its just that simple with me, Paul!
---TheSeg on 7/25/11


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This answer is worth repeating.
"The Seg - Have you ever lied in your lifetime (even a white lie to spare others feelings)? I'm sure the answer is yes, we ALL have. So yes, EVERY man is a LIAR. Just as it only takes ONE time of killing someone to make you a murderer, it only takes ONE lie to make you a LIAR."
---Leslie on 7/25/11
---mima on 7/25/11


All men have possibly lied but once repented of you are no longer known as a liar by God.

If you are a liar this is your reward.
Re 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Rom 3:4 is saying God holds not the possibility to lie and if disagreement ensues between God and man that God is the truth.
Nu 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Joh 14:6
God is truth, go against Him and you are a liar.

---paul on 7/25/11


When answering this!
Put some weight on the end of the line.
As well as Romans 3

"That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

It does mention the truthfulness of God as with that of men. Also makes clear there is no comparison!
So, he is not saying compare God with man, that just wrong!

But more about how YOU might overcome then you are judged!

Because as Leslie and mima, so delicately put it. Everyone has lied.
Rom_3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom_3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Mat_15:18-19 false witness, blasphemies!
---TheSeg on 7/25/11


I think that ROMANS 3:4 is really emphasizing how GOD never changes. That He is always Truthful and never lies. Though human beings can change from day-to-day. They can be honest at times, and at other times will lie. But, GOD doesn't need the fallen nature of mankind to "look good in comparison". GOD is always Righteous and Truthful no matter what any one says or does.
---Gordon on 7/25/11


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When it says, let God be true & every man a liar, I believe it to be saying, if what a man says is contrary to what the Word of God says, then believe God rather than man. There a lots of teachings going on that are claiming to be gospel when it is full of man made additions to God's word. God CANNOT lie, man can & will lie. Easy-peezy, If God's word says it, believe it.:-)))
---Reba on 7/25/11


Ro 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."

It is teaching that whether the Jews follow the Oracles of God or not that it does not call into question the faithfulness or authority of God.

If it comes to God being correct or man being correct that God, who is the truth, will always be the governing authority.

A liars lot is hell.
---paul on 7/25/11


The Scripture is very repulsive to most people. The Scripture in fact does say, that every man is a liar and no amount of twisting and turning will let you escape from that judgment. Condemnation comes not from everyman being a liar but rather from failure of the vast majority to receive and accept what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross of Cauvery. Many is the discussions I've had concerning this Scripture. But mankind as a whole refuses to face the true!!!
---mima on 7/25/11




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