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Christians Here For Tribulation

My friend who has the problem with fear told me the other day that Christians will not be here for the tribulation and I told her I totally disagree with her, that we ARE going to be here for the tribulation. What do you say?

Are there scriptures to back up her theory?

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 ---Donna5535 on 7/28/11
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Since we are surrounded by such a great cloub of witnesses, let us make every effort to enter through the more narrow gate ....---johannes_davidstone on 8/22/11

You talk a good game JD, but where are your cloud of witnesses to prove any points you are making.
This wakes the sleeping people/sheep.
---Trav on 8/28/11


The Valley of the dry bones was given to Ezekiel so that no one understands that good peoples are, sometimes, taken away in battles, plagues, and famines to be spared from evils.

Example: I Will have Mercy on whom I Will have Mercy and Mercy triumphs over Judgments {for the final Judgment was to come following the Resurrection at the appointed time} was given to Moses concerning the terrible plagues in the desert. Paul shows us concerning the mere appearances of 'law'.

Thus, the army is Resurrected to come and stand in the Armageddon battle as written concerning the 6th bowls {ie. 666} for the general 2/3 is written concerning 6th Seal/8 = 7th seal and bowls + 1 {8+6 = 14 Jacob and Laban} no one could count them is written.
---johannes_davidstone on 8/22/11


For example: ~6 seals ~ 6 Millennium BC + ~2000 {trumpets and bowls} = ~8 Millennium

Noah was 350 following the flood:

50/300 = 0.166666666666666

300/50 = 6. Wings of eagles.

If: 7026 before the flood Bc + ~6000 + ~2000 = ~15,000,

+ 1 Millennium.
---johannes_davidstone on 8/22/11


For example: ~6 seals ~ 6 Millennium BC + ~2000 {trumpets and bowls} = ~8 Millennium

Noah was 350 following the flood:

50/300 = 0.166666666666666

300/50 = 6. Wings of eagles.

If: 7026 before the flood BC + ~6000 + ~2000 = ~15,000,

+ 1 Millennium. 16000 as the decimal shows us.

Since we are surrounded by such a great cloub of witnesses, let us make every effort to enter through the more narrow gate when the watchperson opens the gate so that the peoples hear The Word of God and place it into practice entering the green pastures and the still waters.
---johannes_davidstone on 8/22/11


Revelation 3:10

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"

The above describes the time of the tribulation. The church of the Lord Jesus Christ will not go through the tribulation. In order to go through the tribulation one must take the mark of the beast, and that mark of the beast would condemn one to hell!!!
---mima on 8/22/11




The meeting in the air is to reward believers 2 Tim 4:8, Rom 8:18
Jew and Gentile body of believers - 1 Thess 4:14,16
Redemption of our body 1 Cor 15:51 / Romans 8:23
iii. shall we ever be with the Lord 1 Thess 4:17 -this is permanent

The kingdom coming is to fight unbelievers
He shall stand on Mount of Olives - Zech 14:3-9, Acts 1:11-12
He comes for the tares Mat 3:11,12, 13:40-43, Amos 9:8-9
he doth judge and make war - Rev 19:11-13
---michael_e on 8/22/11


rhonda, it was you that said that clouds do not imply judgement and that you live by every word of God. i was pointing out a reference in God's word that says differently than you did and that judgement is part of His foundation.

in some versions, it reads "in the clouds" in others it read "in clouds". to prove a point, you present your capitals, and i will present my witness as God requires.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he [Jesus] which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
---aka on 8/17/11


Rhonda, what are you jawing about now? i do not believe in the secret rapture theory, and i was pointing out God's foundation from God's word. His nature is in the end as it was in the beginning.
*****

what??? oh gosh - whatever lol I learn to keep your empty responses out of my responses seeing you don't even understand the verses you are referencing in regards to the topic presented ...you must have got lost in your OWN translation ...carry on darling i understand most here are TRULY not interested in sharing understanding in Holy Scripture ...only here to provoke incite and cause strife
---Rhonda on 8/17/11


//I gave you the verses//
MATT 24:29-31
JOHN 17:15
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54
JOHN 11:24
JOHN 12:48
DAN 12:1-3
(Heb 9)
you won't find it in your listing of OT scripture, it was kept secret, jonnie
---michael_e on 8/16/11


Pretty convuluted logic Micheal-E. Which is always the case when someone is stretching the truth or making their own truth in the ever silly pursuit of their own manmade heresy.

IT'S NOT THERE MIKE!

Time to reconciled with G-d and HIS Scripture. He wrote it in plain black and white.
I gave you the verses.

(Now where's the Pepto Bismol. Actually I need Maximum Strength to cover that last post of yours.
---John on 8/16/11




There isn't a "secret" catching away now it was only secret until it was revealed to our apostle Paul.(Rom 16:25)
The same with the body of Christ, predominately gentile, never revealed until Paul.
Deut. 29:29 God says he can keep things secret.
---michael_e on 8/15/11


i don't know about perry stone's teaching on the non-event, but i do know that he will sell you "the meal that heals", a communion kit. he promises it will heal.

fineprint - no money back if no healing

makes good sense. no healing, it is your fault. healing, see... money well spent.

WOF TBN

Donna, i know you like these teachers with "charisma". please do not give away your money anymore, open the bible, and read it with no suggestion from people "ordained by God".
---aka on 8/15/11


Donna5535 - I STRONGLY encourage you to go to Perry Stone's website and get the new offer he has on the rapture - this will really help answer some of yours and others questions on this and if it is Biblical or not.
---Leslie on 8/14/11


Rhonda, what are you jawing about now? i do not believe in the secret rapture theory, and i was pointing out God's foundation from God's word. His nature is in the end as it was in the beginning.
---aka on 8/13/11


Psa 97:2 .

think about the implications.
****

the implications of perverting Holy Scripture as MANY who love to worship and serve their lying false ministers and the antichrist rapture theory?

USING Psalms 97:2 to IMPLY it is related to the RETURN OF CHRIST is absurd

and THAT would be the first time anyone has gone to such great lengths to prove a man made doctrine of the antichrist rapture theory

think about it EVERY WORD from Holy Scripture states WHEN Christ returns the judgement (aka tribulation) has ENDED

there are MANY judgments in Holy Scripture - dangerous to MIX them up to serve a fairy tale of mortal men
---Rhonda on 8/13/11


//clouds DO NOT imply or refer to any type of judgement those who are TRULY living by EVERY Word Luke 4:4//

oooooohoooohoooh!

ummm... the entire Word would like to have a word with you.

Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

think about the implications.

The King of Kings establishes his kingdom by total spiritual separation (judgement) which was, is, and will continue happening even when He returns.
---aka on 8/8/11


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there are some who "will meet the Lord in clouds [judgement]. And so [those] shall ever be with the Lord."
*****

clouds DO NOT imply or refer to any type of judgement those who are TRULY living by EVERY Word Luke 4:4, John 14:15 are being judged NOW Acts 26:6 1Pet 4:17

Christ returns at END of tribulation at 7th and final trumpet of 7 trumpet plagues ...Christ RETURNS to BIND Satan then RESTORE government of GOD on earth

The Lord Christ Jesus will be ruling as KING OF KINGS from Jerusalem ...those who are resurrected and receive promise of salvation and immortality inherit their new born life as sons of GOD to be with Christ and also rule on earth 1Corin 15 AT His return not before
---Rhonda on 8/8/11


//do you believe we just stay in the clouds or make a u-turn and come back to earth?// --michael_e on 8/7/1

i believe there are some who "will meet the Lord in clouds [judgement]. And so [those] shall ever be with the Lord."
---aka on 8/7/11


Jesus said to his disciples, "In the world you all will have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. If you all were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you all are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you. Blessed be you all when that malign you, and will persecute and say all evil word against you, lying falsely, on account of me. Rejoice and raise high, that the bonus plenteous yours in heaven: for so they persecuted the prophets, them before you."
---Eloy on 8/7/11


//the bible says meet him and not meet him and go away.
---aka on 8/7/11//
just curious, do you believe we just stay in the clouds or make a u-turn and come back to earth?
---michael_e on 8/7/11


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//1st Thessolians 4:17 says we will meet Him "in the air" and we will be with Him in heaven.//

there are different versions that say air some say clouds. the second part does not say be with him in Heaven. it says with the Lord forever (wherever he is.)

in the old testament, when the Lord came in clouds, it refers to judgement.

the bible says meet him and not meet him and go away.
---aka on 8/7/11


Rev 7 (AKA:The PAUSE). We are Mid-Tribulation(Note: no one is Raptured at this point either). The Wrath of G-d begins for the wicked.
---John on 8/5/11

Mid-Trib? Are you kidding me? The seals are Tribulation? I bet you believe the Tribulation starts when John is called up (Rev 4.:1).

Have you ever read The Revelation?

The seals hold a scroll closed. The contents of the scroll is the message, not the seals. The seals are not part of the message (wrath), they are separate.

Look at the fifth seal. If we are the middle of God's wrath, why do the souls under the altar practically insult God by asking "how long before you avenge us"? Because, the wrath has not started yet. God has not avenged them yet.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/6/11


Michael, We are told the church will not be here Armageddon. The word Armageddon is used only once in the entire Bible. Rev. 16:16 is speaking of the seven plagues, right before (v.16) during the time of the plagues Jesus Christ says, "Behold, I am Coming (Parouisa) as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments (mentioned by Jesus in His parable of the wedding feast where one did not have his garment and what happened to him) lest he walk naked and they see his shame. And they gather them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
(Rev. 16:15,16).
Who is Jesus talking to? To the Church. At the time of (v. 15) while the plagues are falling, which is the tribulation.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/11


So exactly where do you see this wrath for the wicked only in the Revelation?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/5/11
YOU NEED TO STUDY!
But its a good question.

HERE'S YOUR ANSWER...

Rev 7 (AKA:The PAUSE). We are Mid-Tribulation(Note: no one is Raptured at this point either). The Wrath of G-d begins for the wicked.

But what about the believers?

It is at this piont where G-d pauses and seals His Elect for their protection. They will still suffer great Tribulation, but they will NOT die.

From there on ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON THE WICKED LITERALLY!!!

Read it!
---John on 8/5/11


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//the tribulation is not the Day of Wrath//
Maybe you can explain the difference.
--michael_e on 8/5/11

FUNNY.... I THOUGHT I DID SEVERAL TIMES.

HERE IT IS AGAIN...

Tribulation is for Believers ONLY!
It comes from the word Tribul. A sled use to separate the Chaff from the Wheat.(Testing your faith)

Wrath is for the wicked ONLY!
---John on 8/5/11


Wrath is for the wicked ONLY!
---John on 8/4/11

So exactly where do you see this wrath for the wicked only in the Revelation? Or is there another Book in the Bible that discusses the Tribulation?

In Rev 6:16, I see the people declaring that the Wrath of God is starting.

Is this the wrath of the wicked you are talking about?

Seems to me, the Tribulation has not yet started in Rev 6. Seems to me, according to your statement, only the wicked should be on planet earth at this point.

Is this correct?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/5/11


//the tribulation is not the Day of Wrath//
Maybe you can explain the difference.

Where does Jesus in Matt 24 tell His disiples(representing Israel) they will meet him in the air?
And why would they ask him in Acts 1 when would he restore the Kingdom?
who is speaking, to whom is he speaking and what is he speaking about, commonly called "right division"
---michael_e on 8/5/11


Excellent post MarkV!
---John on 8/4/11


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Michael e, the tribulation is not the Day of Wrath. Sorry but you are confused. Matthew 24 is referring to a future event. The very same word "Prouisa" meaning Second Coming of Christ is found in both Matthew 24 and 1 Thess. 4:16-35) describe by Paul. Here also the event is not silent. Everyone will see Him. And what happens to all who are not "caught up?" Matthew 24 says, "For as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. " This people were having fun, marrying and such "until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the Coming of the Son of Man be" Seems to me those who are not caught up, will die.
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11


//Donna5535, I listed verses to study...
MATT 24:29-31
JOHN 17:15
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54
JOHN 11:24
JOHN 12:48
DAN 12:1-3//

Make sure as you read these verses,who is talking, to whom are talking and what are they talking about. You might also want to notice where you as a gentile believer, a member of the body of Christ, is mentioned in any of these scriptures.
---michael_e on 8/4/11


Donna5535, I listed verses to study...
MATT 24:29-31
JOHN 17:15
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54
JOHN 11:24
JOHN 12:48
DAN 12:1-3

YES, We will meet the Lord on the Last day in the Air. The dead will rise first, then the living.

Matt:31
"And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other".

Tribulation is for Believers ONLY!
It comes from the word Tribul. A sled use to separate the Chaff from the Wheat.(Testing your faith)

Wrath is for the wicked ONLY!
---John on 8/4/11


John, I believe Christians will be here for the Tribulation....it's proved in Revelation someone asked, "Who are they over there?" (I paraphrased that) and they were the ones that Overcame in the end.

But now I'm confused if there is going to be a Rapture. If Jesus is coming again and we meet Him in the air (1 Thessolians 4:17) and it also says we are changed into our glorified body, when does that Rapture occur? That's what I'm studying now...when and if there is going to be a Rapture or just Jesus coming back to set up His Kingdom on earth. That's the MILLION dollar question today 8/4/11.
---Donna5535 on 8/4/11


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Mark E, Now that we know His coming is not silent. Another thing, the word "coming" when use of Christ Second coming is "Parousia"
Second, when speaking of the Church, the saints are the Church. There is no two kinds of churches. Concerning the Church, the saints, if it is taken up before the tribulation, why are the saints mentioned Rev. 13:7, and also 14:12. Paul wrote his New Testament letters to the "churches" of the saints (1 Cor. 14:31). What does this tell us? Wherever there are saints, there is the Church. Even if the saints mentioned in Rev 13,14 are only the tribulation saints after the rapture, wouldn't they, as sincere believers in Jesus Christ still be the Church?
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11


the trib is a prophesied event (exa. isa. 13 jere. dan etc) of Christ pourihg out His wrath.
Matt 24 is Christ speaking to the representatives of Israel(not us)
Our apostle Paul speaking to the Church(us), the body of Christ(not prophesied) says we are "not appointed to wrath"
The body of Christ will be complete before the trib.
---michael_e on 8/4/11


Donna5535 read my posts. They give you all the verses/info you need.
In G-d there is no confusion, in apostasies there always is.

NOTE Thessolians 4:17 does NOT say when!

PAUL TELLS US
2THESS2:

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction"

Paul wrote these 2 Letters to the Thessolonians, because they heard rumors from APOSTATES that the church had already been "Raptured" in Jerusalem and it was too late for them to get saved.

That is what these letter were about. Not the future

DId you google Margaret McDonald? The Witch who started this Heresy

---John on 8/3/11


//Donna5535, do you have enough information now to confront your friend?
---John on 7/30/11//

John and everyone who posted a response. I got so confused that I went to the Lord in prayer and told Him, "Lord I'm confused, please clarify this for me."

So I started a study on the tribulation and the Rapture. 1st Thessolians 4:17 says we will meet Him "in the air" and we will be with Him in heaven. I only got so far and had to stop. But I am so confused and until I do a study on this, I'm going to decline on telling my friend anything. Let her think she's right, what do I care? LOL (for now I don't). I care what is TRUTH, not what she thinks.
---Donna5535 on 8/3/11


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Is it silent? No. Everyone will hear His Coming.
---Mark_V. on 8/3/11

Understood. As I have told you before, I do not believe in two returns of Jesus. Only one, not at the end of the Trib. but at the beginning for all to see. How else will those who say "save us from the wrath of He who sits on the throne and from the Lamb" know about Jesus?

Anyway, you did not answer my question.

If we look at the book of Revelation for a timeline, when do you see Jesus return? Is it at the beginning in Rev. 7 with the appearance of the great multitude or is it at the end in Rev 19 with Christ on the white horse?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/3/11


Good answer Mark V, that Scripture definitely makes things clear for me!
---Mary on 8/3/11


Mark E, one thing we have to remember when reading this passages. First, (his coming) is only one time. The Bible does teach that Jesus Christ will return for His people. "I will come again and receive you to Myself" (John 14:3). But will He come invisibly? Will the Church disappear? Does the Bible really teach vanishing Christians? The verse quote by Left Behind, gives 1 Thess. 4:17 for support. Is Paul discribing a silent return of Jesus Christ before an apocalyptic seven-year tribulation? We don't need to guess. The very first words gives the answer in 1 Thess. 4:16,17. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout" Is it silent? No. Everyone will hear His Coming.
---Mark_V. on 8/3/11


Wow... what diversity in answers.

For all you people who are quoting Matthew 24, let me ask you a question. Which scriptures illustrate the answers to which questions?

Let me explain. Christ was asked THREE questions and gave us the remainder of the chapter as an answer. So the Tribulation He speaks of, is it the answer for His Return or for the end of the age?

So, unless you can defend your position with other scripture, Matt 24 tells us nothing of TIMING.

Another issue I have. Jesus tells us to be ready for His coming in Matthew 25. Yet, most of you seem to think that His coming is in Rev 19 at the end of the Tribulation. If I have read The Revelation, how can I miss the timing of His coming?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/2/11


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If the Holy Spirit is removed after this suppose rapture. Then how do people get saved that were(cough! cough!) "Left Behind".
---John on 7/31/11

Which side are you on?

If no one can get saved during the Trib it says this is not simply some "trials" to go through. This time is something entirely different. Scripture bears out what it is.

Rev 6:17 "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

The Tribulation is all about God's WRATH
---Mark_Eaton on 8/2/11


Good points MarkV!
The Preterist were correct in SOME of their assessment. As in all of scripture we have first the physical then the spiritual.

We have the Temple, we now have Jesus as the Temple. We had the Exodus to the promise land, we now have the second coming. We had Nero who is 666 we now have the antichrist coming.

Scripture is always written in 4 layers. Someday I will explain the other two.
---John on 8/2/11


John 2: Preterism was started by Luis de Alcasar, and "pre" points back to the past, and see all the majority of prophecies of Matt 24 and the Book of Revelation as having already been fulfilled either in the fall of Jerusalem 70-AD or in the fall of Rome. They also believe even the Second Coming of Jesus somehow mystically occured in 70-AD and the Antichrist was Emperor Nero. Futurism started by Ribera, see the opposite of Preterism, they see the majority of Revelation's prophecy from chapter 4, as yet on the horizon. This way the Antichrist has not come, and the Pope is not charged as the antichrist. Great trick, now you have millions believing one or the other.
---Mark_V. on 8/1/11


//Are there scriptures to back up her theory?//

Are there scriptures, pertaining to the Church the body of Christ, to back up your theory?
---michael_e on 8/1/11


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John, I agree with you. In the Roman Church there was never a question of the end times. There was a question about who the Antichrist was. It wasn't until the reformers labeled the Pope as the Antichrist that all these problems about the end times began. History tells us that at the Council of Trent, papal leaders and Jesuits decided a way to counteract Protestantism and bring defactors back to the mother church. They decided this was to be done, not only through the Inquisition and torture but also through theology. Two Jesuits, Luis de Alcasar and Francisco Ribera were asigned to come up with something to oppose the pope been the antichrist. Rebera came out with the Preterist view, Alcasar with the Futuristic view.
---Mark_V. on 8/1/11


//CAME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION,//

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

there are versions that include "the".

blessed are those people who depend on Jesus despite great tribulation.

may God have mercy that depend on the "rapture" to save them from THE great tribulation.
---aka on 7/31/11


REVELATION 7:14 And I said unto him sir,Thou knowest,And said to me, these are they which CAME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION,and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
---RICHARDC on 7/31/11


BTW...

If the Holy Spirit is removed after this suppose rapture. Then how do people get saved that were(cough! cough!) "Left Behind".

Hmmmm?

Without the HS the Bible is just a useless book.
---John on 7/31/11


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//Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.//
Matt 24 was spoken by the Lord Himself to the 12 as representatives of Israel. Consequently, Matt 24 is all tribulation. Now that the Jews are back in the land, we can see everything being prepared for the final seven years of Daniel's prophecy -Daniel 9:27.
No mention of the Church the body of Christ.
---michael_e on 7/31/11


--Donna5535, do you have enough information now to confront your friend?
---John on 7/30/11


Donna I don't take anything written here personally no need to seek my forgiveness you should ONLY seek to find understanding IN Gods Word ...often times it's difficult to understand some posters ...125 words does not allow for much elaboration or clarification ...I'm here to study and dig deeper into the Word often picking one sentence from a post to further the understanding rather than a "person" to hammer that person - I RARELY use names in my post because I see how many become emotionally charged with their religious beliefs and when I use Scripture they believe I am personally condemning or attacking them ...they would need to take it up with the author Christ Jesus
---Rhonda on 7/30/11


What do you say?Are there scriptures to back up her theory?
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The fact that God says that for THE ELECT'S SAKE it will be shortened, means that the ELECT will be here.

IS the ELECT THE CHURCH?
Colossians 3:12
2 Timothy 2:10
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 5:13
2 John 1:1
2 John 1:13

ALL THESE TEXTS REFERS TO THE CHURCH AS THE ELECT
---francis on 7/29/11


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//Christ RETURNS ONCE and when HE does it happens at the LAST TRUMPET the great sound heard all over the earth 1Corin 15:52 ...the tribulation aka times of sorrow will have ENDED ...Christ RETURNS to gather the elect and RULE as KING OF KINGS on Earth from Jerusalem
---Rhonda on 7/29/11//

Rhonda this is what I believe, so where do we differ? You interpreted the scripture I gave to you and you are right, so where do we differ?
Forgive me because I don't think I understood your first response...I have a really bad headache today and feeling nauseated. So forgive me if I've mis-intrepeted what you first said, that's my error and for that I ask for forgiveness for. Thanks Rhonda.
---Donna5535 on 7/29/11


"Jesus comes back, Jesus kicks ass."

Kinda like the terminator?
---atheist on 7/29/11


1 Thes. 4:15-17
Doesn't tell you when the rapture happens, only that it does. The Lord doesn't come all the way to Earth. We meet Him in the clouds and go back with Him where He came from. If this was the 2nd coming, He would be coming here to be where we are, not coming to take us there to be where He is.
---michael_e on 7/29/11


Gordon,

The scripture we have today is the same Jesus, the Apostles and with their testimony, the church throughout the ages. This "new revelation" is not in scripture anywhere and most certainly was not believed until Miss MacDonald taught such a thing. It seems quite clear the vision that was sealed is opened in Revelation. Also, I must say if our Lord mentioned no such thing and it is not in scripture without distorting verses, there is a false hope. Our hope is for the return of Jesus the Messiah,which will be visible to all, and the resurrection of the dead. Revelation 20:5,6 speaks of the first resurrection after which we reign with Christ 1000yrs. There is no raising of the dead saints before this.
---willa5568 on 7/29/11


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Rhonda, here is scripture to back up that what you are saying isn't true at all.

Matthew 24:31 ...a great sound of a trumpet
*****

so to understand the rapture theory is "true" and Holy Scripture is "not true" ....per your rapture theory YOU have BOUGHT the LIE that this GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET happens and all are whisked away to never-never land

which of course YOU DO comprehend CONTRADICTS Holy Scripture??

Christ RETURNS ONCE and when HE does it happens at the LAST TRUMPET the great sound heard all over the earth 1Corin 15:52 ...the tribulation aka times of sorrow will have ENDED ...Christ RETURNS to gather the elect and RULE as KING OF KINGS on Earth from Jerusalem
---Rhonda on 7/29/11


Rhonda, here is scripture to back up that what you are saying isn't true at all.

Matthew 24:31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

athiest - not everyone here is using scripture to back up their "theology." And not everyone here is of the same Spirit, the Holy Spirit, so you're getting opingions and reasonings and not the truth of the Word and I'm sorry about that. We need to answer this question with scritpure and scripture only. Very few can do that.
---Donna5535 on 7/29/11


Willa, I don't know about this Ronald McDonald lady. But, just because something pertaining to the End-Times is not directly mentioned in the Canonical Scriptures does not mean that it's not true. Daniel the O.T. Prophet was given Visions of the Last Days that he was to SEAL UP, instead of jotting them down for the Bible. Those sealed-up Visions were only for the people living during the End Times to know about. They did not apply to the Saints throughout the entire Church Age. Does that not make any sense? If not, it should! GOD can reveal "new" Info in the Last Days. HE's GOD. HE can do as HE pleases, in HIS own Good Time! So many in the Church are so blinded to this, and it should not be so. But, alas, it is anyhow. :..(
---Gordon on 7/29/11


It does not matter who is right. Let me explain revelation and the end times. Jesus comes back, Jesus kicks ass, Satan defeated, We win. Maybe God uses a rapture, maybe God does not, maybe God uses something we cannot imagine, but whatever method He chooses it will be the best.
---Scott1 on 7/29/11


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"Yet another example.... You both use the Bible as your ultimate reference and yet you come to completely opposite conclusions.
Why is it that an omnipotent god didn't find a better way to communicate to his believers?"
atheist
Why is it that one person uses a hammer and works to install windows and someone trying to help uses the same hammer and breaks those windows?
Could it be that maybe one of them is using the hammer wrong?
---Elder on 7/29/11


John,

//Margaret McDonald which I googled and found out she (A Witch) started this in 1835.//

you are very correct and also you will find no evidence of this doctrine before 1835. Every scripture that is used concerning this has a specific point. If you do not read everything around it, you will misinterpret it, which is what is happening. I was also a pretriber as well. It takes really examining what someone presents that opposes your belief about scripture to be certain of which is true.
---willa5568 on 7/29/11


"What do you say?" Jesus' disciples asked Him point blank "what [will] be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Jesus answered "...there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be....'Immediately after' the tribulation of those days....Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,...And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together 'His elect' from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mat. 24:3-31> 2Th 2:1-3
Jesus came once, He will come again. I know of no intermediate coming.
---joseph on 7/29/11


//use the Bible as your ultimate reference and yet you come to completely opposite conclusions.//

in calculus, some would get As and others would get Fs. the truth in the book the class used was the same.

//Why is it that an omnipotent god didn't find a better way to communicate to his believers?//

He did. The Lord left us the Spirit of God.

//possible that you each just believe in a different god?//

most probably

//Or may one of you believes in the real god, and the other a false god.//

now, you are catchin' on.

//So which of you has it right?//

When the Lord returns, we will find out. Some will get "As", many will get "Fs".
---aka on 7/28/11


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Anyone who says that Christians will be here for the Tribulation and there is no Rapture, are NOT in line with the Bible---Leslie on 7/28/11

Well Leslie I gave you exact quotes straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ
Himself.

Do you consider Him to be inline with the Bible? Do you dispute Him?

I also gave you Pauls Answer in Thessalonions and why these letters were written.

You may want to re-evaluate your beliefs on this Heresy.

I used to be a Pre-Tribber Myself until someone showed me the word in scripture(as I just showed you) and he also told me about Margaret McDonald which I googled and found out she (A Witch) started this in 1835.(Very Recent Heresy with no history)
---John on 7/28/11


There will be a few Saints who will accounted worthy to be a part of the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Bride of CHRIST. There will be a large number of Saints who will partake of the Mid-Trib Rapture of the Wedding Guests. Then, the remaining Saints who are all left behind will either be martyred (tortured and be-headed: REV. 20:4) or struggle for survival until YAHUSHUA's Second Advent.
---Gordon on 7/28/11


2Thess2
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction"

Paul wrote these 2 Letters to the Thessolonians, because they heard rumors from APOSTATES that the church had already been "Raptured" in Jerusalem and it was too late for them to get saved.

Paul told them the truth.
That is what these letter were about. Not the future




THE GREAT COMMISION...

Is it until Christ returns?
OR...
7yrs before He returns?
---John on 7/28/11


Anyone who says that Christians will be here for the Tribulation and there is no Rapture, are NOT in line with the Bible, but only in line with their personal beliefs and what their Pastors teach (which is AGAINST the Bible). There are NUMEROUS scriptures to back up the Rapture and Christians NOT being here for the Tribulation, some I have already given. There is NO scriptures to back up there not being a Rapture or that Christians will be here for the Tribulation - if you believe this, let me say you have been DECEIVED and are believing LIES. Of course the only way to know for sure, is when it happens, in which case the ones that have believed this lie, WILL be left behind.
---Leslie on 7/28/11


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Christians WILL be here for the Tribulation.

Jesus said, "I pray that You do not take them out of the world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

Leslie and other rapturists pray, "You don't listen to Jesus, God! You take us out of this world."

Whose prayer if the Father more likely to grant, Leslie?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/28/11


//Christians will NOT be here for the Tribulation. //

//Christians go through the Tribulation.//

do you expect any other answer?

i do. Jesus in His Second Coming will answer. be prepared despite our logic...serve your brother today in the Lord, and this will take care of tomorrow.
---aka on 7/28/11


PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IS A HERESY!!!

It was started (19th century) by a Witch named Margaret McDonald(Google it)passed to John Darby then to John Scoffield who brought it to America.

TRIBULATION IS FOR BELIEVERS! WRATH IS FOR THE WICKED! All believers have gone through tribulation. Why would G-d give "YOU" a pass??? It comes from the word Tribul. A sled use to seperate the Wheat from the Chaff. A testing of faith.

NOW HEAR WHAT JESUS SAID...

MATT 24:29-31.."AFTER the tribulation"
JOHN 17:15 "Do NOT take them out of the world..
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54 "On the LAST day"
JOHN 11:24 "on the LAST day"
JOHN 12:48 "on the LAST day"
DAN 12:1-3

CASE CLOSED!!!
---John on 7/28/11


nothing in Holy Scripture backs up that idea (aka rapture theory) ...tribulation is trials

Israel went through MANY trials ...GOD guided them THROUGH these trials HE didn't take the trials away

John 16:33 Acts 14:22 describe the tribulation that are expected

nothing in Holy Word of God IMPLIES Christians live a life of no responsibility to GOD ...otherwise Apostles lied when they told us to build perfect character, seek to overcome

Truth is the big LIE preaches Christ on the lips live your life as a sinner IN "a christ" 2Corin 4:11

Christ TEACHES follow me and obey

True Christians will be GUIDED through the tribulation JUST LIKE all of Gods people in times past
---Rhonda on 7/28/11


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Leslie and Cluny,

Yet another example.... You both use the Bible as your ultimate reference and yet you come to completely opposite conclusions.

Why is it that an omnipotent god didn't find a better way to communicate to his believers?

On the other hand, is it just possible that you each just believe in a different god?

Or may one of you believes in the real god, and the other a false god.

So which of you has it right?
---atheist on 7/28/11


Christians will NOT be here for the Tribulation. Here is what the Bible says on why (1 Thessalonians 4:18-5:11, Revelation 3:10). Also, if you study the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah), you will see that this is the FIRST event on God's calendar that signals the Rapture of the church. This Feast comes BEFORE the Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur) when the Tribulation takes place. Then is the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) when Jesus will rule and reign in the New Jerusalem for 1000 years.
---Leslie on 7/28/11


It's not what you say, or what your friend says, or what I say. It's what the Bible says.

Christians go through the Tribulation.

And if we die for Christ during it, is that such a horrible fate? As long as Jesus tarries, death is an ever-present possibility, anyway.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/28/11


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