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Sorry He Had Made Man

This verse has always troubled me " "And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." Man's wickedness could not have possibly caught the Father by surprise. So how would you explain the verse to one who question "God's omniscience?

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Warwick- I never said Thomas used God's name in vain. Thomas didn't use God's name at John 20:28. Whatever Thomas meant when he said 'my Lord and my God', Thomas certainly didn't believe the pagan trinity doctrine.

Regardless of what the imperfect man Thomas said or meant, what really matters is what Jesus Christ said and believed, which you and your trinitarian co-horts avoid.

The resurrected Jesus Christ said he was 'ascending... to my God'- John 20:17.

Everyone can see you are a pervert. The Watchtower article of December 1, 1972 p.735, which exposed immoral perversions, the article which you hate is out in the public domain for everyone to read. You even describe those perversions as 'ordinary'.
---David8318 on 8/23/11


"We must always remember that..." Warwick

Caught with his apologetic pants down again.

And we must also "remember" that Jesus' prayer to God (John 17) didn't conclude with verse 5.

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them [His disciples], that they may be one, just as We are one". John 17:22 NASB

"Did we or any man, or angel share such glory with God? The very idea is nonsense." Warwick

Apparently the answer is yes. Either our Lord and redeemer, Jesus Christ was wrong, expressing a 'nonsensical idea', or you are. I'm going with you on this one.
---scott on 8/22/11


Warwick will you answer this?

there is no God but one...yet for us there is one God(who is that God), the Father-1Corithians 8:4,6

Paul says there is no God but one, the Father. The Father made Jesus both Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36). Why do Paul and Jesus say the Father is the one and only person who is God?(John 5:44,17:3,1Timothy 1:17,2:5, Ephesians 4:6). Peter says,"The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus...God exalted him to his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins(Acts 3:13,5:30). (the God of there forefathers(YHWH-Joel 2:26, I)raised and exalted Jesus)

Is God a three persons thing or one person who says I,me,mine?
---willa5568 on 8/22/11


Willa, the differentation is in the relationship, as I explained. "He was careful to distinguish His relationship with the Father from our relationship with the Father. He is God's Son by nature and by right but we are God's sons by grace and adoption."

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ." This is akin to John 20:17 and does not contradict what I have written.

We also must remember that Scripture says Jesus was fully man and fully God, as John 1:14, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8, 2:14, 10:5 etc perfectly demonstrate.

As to the spirit He is God and as to the flesh He is man. This is what Scripture says.
---Warwick on 8/22/11


Scott, you are losing your touch. Your attempts at deception and evasion are becoming more and more obvious.

I wrote:

"We must always remember that this same Jesus said "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

"Did we or any man, or angel share such glory with God? The very idea is nonsense."

Neither you or me, or any apostle, or angel can honsetly claim this. Only Jesus, fully God and fully man-"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"
---Warwick on 8/22/11




David, Thomas doubted Jesus had been resurrected. Jesus showed Thomas He definitely had been. And Thomas says -The Lord of me and the God of me but you relegate this to using the Lord's name in vain?

This is truly pathetic even for you who accused me of sexual perversity, and that without any basis in reality.
---Warwick on 8/22/11


"If you send the only son you loved so much..."Mark

I actually do have an only son. And while it's ludicrous for me to make a comparison with the things I've asked of my son to what was asked of the Son of God, with all of our similarities, my son is not me.

He reflects my qualities, some good and, sadly, some bad. But he is not me.

Regarding Christ's being "submissive to the Father": This was not just in "the flesh" as you have stated. After Christ's death and resurrection Paul said:

"When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:28
---scott on 8/22/11


Warwick- you wrote, 'He was careful to distinguish His relationship with the Father from our relationship with the Father. He is God's Son by nature and by right but we are God's sons by grace and adoption.'

And your point is what?

But I do agree that the relationship between God and Jesus is as you say- 'distinguishable'. A careful Bible student will and can easily distinguish between Almighty God and the Son of God- they are very distinct.

More reason to understand why the resurrected Jesus referred to his Father as 'my God'- John 20:17,18.
---David8318 on 8/22/11


Trinitarians are fascinated by the sayings of imperfect men and pay little heed to what Jesus Christ believed.

Take Marc's fascination with Thomas' words- 'my Lord and my God'. The imperfect man Thomas needed convincing, and he may have said '... my God' out of sheer surprise or delight that Jesus had been resurrected. Trinitarians can wax lyrical all they want over the sayings of an imperfect man. In the final analysis, will Thomas' words lead to salvation? Is my faith dependent on Thomas' remarks? NO!

I'm more interested in what Jesus Christ said on the matter. The resurrected Jesus said, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God'- John 20:17,18.
---David8318 on 8/22/11


//you may have a case if Jesus said-I ascend to our Father and our God. But He doesn't, drawing attention to the differentation between His Father and our Father and His God and our God-Warwick//

I quote you "The very idea is nonsense". His God our God, there is no differentiation.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ(Ephesians 1:3)
It seems like Paul understood what Jesus said.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead(1Peter 1:3)
Peter understood. Curse these heretics for such blaspheme!
---willa5568 on 8/22/11




Marc,

will you be bold enough to answer this.

there is no God but one...yet for us there is one God(who is that God), the Father-1Corithians 8:4,6

Paul says there is no God but one, the Father. The Father made Jesus both Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36). Why do Paul and Jesus say the Father is the one and only person who is God?(John 5:44,17:3,1Timothy 1:17,2:5, Ephesians 4:6)

Is God a thing(He's either a person,place or thing) consisting of three persons or one person who says I,me,mine?

"scripture interprets scripture"
---willa5568 on 8/22/11


David wrote: "John 20:28, 'Ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou' [My Lord and my God], it is to be noted that a substantive [ie.'God'] in the Nominative case used in a vocative sense [in address to Jesus] and followed by a possessive ['of me'] could not be anarthrous [ie. without the definite article 'the']."

Let's for the sake of the argument accept that at face value. So Thomas has called Jesus his God. How could an Arian hold that as a theologically correct position? Do you believe Thomas was correct to claim Jesus as his God?
---Marc on 8/22/11


"We must always remember that...Jesus said "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." Warwick

And we must also "remember" that Jesus' prayer to God (John 17) didn't conclude with verse 5.

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them [His disciples], that they may be one, just as We are one". John 17:22 NASB

"Did we or any man, or angel share such glory with God? The very idea is nonsense." Warwick

Apparently the answer is yes. Either our Lord and redeemer, Jesus Christ was wrong, expressing a 'nonsensical idea', or you are. I'm going with you on this one.
---scott on 8/22/11


David, you wrote 'I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to MY GOD, and your God'- Jo.20:17,18 (AV).

Now you may have a case if Jesus said-I ascend to our Father and our God. But He doesn't, drawing attention to the differentation between His Father and our Father and His God and our God. He was careful to distinguish His relationship with the Father from our relationship with the Father. He is God's Son by nature and by right but we are God's sons by grace and adoption.

We must always remember that this same Jesus said "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

Did we or any man, or angel share such glory with God? The very idea is nonsense.
---Warwick on 8/22/11


Scott, if you send your only son you loved so much to die, would you say he had the same nature as you? He could not have a dog's nature or a cow's, but your own nature. And if he died by been submissive wouldn't that tell you he honored your request? If he didn't he would sin by rebelling against you.
Now hear God's Word,
"For what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, in sending Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to be a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3).
Jesus was submissive to the Father the reason He never sinned. "He that does not believe God, has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son"
---Mark_V. on 8/22/11


Marc,
you didn't read my post
//Why did Thomas say "the Lord of me, the God of me", because Jesus is the King, the seed of David and Gods representative .It would be odd that 20:17 says Jesus wants Thomas to know he is going to their God and then is Thomas' God//
And yes what you say makes three Gods, idolatry.

there is no God but one...yet for us there is one God(who is that God), the Father 1Corithians 8:4,6

Answer this: Paul says there is no God but one, the Father. The Father made Jesus both Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36). Why do Paul and Jesus say the Father is the one and only person who is God?(John 5:44,17:3, 1Timothy 1:17,2:5, Ephesians 4:6)

Is God a person or thing?
---willa5568 on 8/21/11


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Mark,

are you reading the scripture your posting? The son of God gives us insight to know Him(God) who is true who is God the Father, the true God. How does that prove Jesus is God? It says the exact opposite, the Father is the true God. It says to "know him who is true". Who is the him, it is the true God who's son is Jesus, not God the son.

Are you willing to answer any of the questions I have asked in previous posts without the philosophic language used by trinitarian dogma?
---willa5568 on 8/20/11


Willa,

Rather than cutting and pasting from Thayer's you should actually read the rest of what he was saying at point 4.

Don't forget Thayer had unitarian tendencies. Despite this, the fact that Thomas called Jesus ''THE GOD of me'' raises difficulties for Arian heretics like you and Scott, something that Thayer also minimally alluded to.

You still evaded my point and a quote from Thayer is not engaging with the argument. Thomas called Jesus ''THE GOD''. If the Father is THE GOD and Jesus is also THE GOD (as Thomas declares), then on your account there are two THE GODS. On the Trinitarian account we look to Matthew 28:19 and it all makes sense ''baptising them in the NAME of the Father and of the Son'' i.e The God.
---Marc on 8/20/11


"The next question". Mark_V

So what is the question?
---scott on 8/20/11


Scott, The Son came from God, Has Godly nature, the Holy Spirit comes from Christ, has a Godly nature. No one sees the Father, the Son was seen, the Holy Spirit no one sees. All with a Godly nature. John 17:2-5 Christ prays for Himself. "Father glorify Your Son, that your Son may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to many, as you have given Him, and this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, "with the glory which I had with You before the world was"
---Mark_V. on 8/21/11


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"John 20:28, 'Ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou' [My Lord and my God], it is to be noted that a substantive [ie.'God'] in the Nominative case used in a vocative sense [in address to Jesus] and followed by a possessive ['of me'] could not be anarthrous [ie. without the definite article 'the'].

The article ['the'] before 'theos' may therefore not be significant."

'An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek', by C. F. D. Moule, Professor of Divinity in the University of Cambridge, 1953, p.116,117.

Teachers of the trinity thus 'grasp at straws' claiming Jesus is God by what Thomas said at Jo.20:28. The resurrected Jesus said to Mary- 'I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to MY GOD, and your God'- Jo.20:17,18 (AV).
---David8318 on 8/21/11


Scott/Willa,

'Jesus spoke these words, lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said:''FATHER, the hour has come. Glorify your SON, that your SON may glorify you, as you have given him authority over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him...And now O FATHER glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you BEFORE the world was.'''

According to The Watchtower wasn't Jesus a mere angel before the world was? So does that mean an angel and the Father shared the glory?

JWs and other arians have a creature having the same glory as the uncreated Father???
---Marc on 8/21/11


Scott/Willa 2: So the next question is, and where there is no understanding? that means there is no union with Him, for only those who have the understanding to know "And we know He has come" He has given us understanding that we may know Him that is True" and finishes with, "This is the true God, and eternal life"
If you go by the chain of events you will see but may not understand. God sent the Son, "For what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, in sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to be a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3). He was literally His proper and peculiar Son.
---Mark_V. on 8/20/11


"And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and everlasting life" ( 1 John 5:20). Mark_V (1)

Agreed. According to the same bible writer, Jesus recognized this 'true one' (his heavenly father) as the "only true God". John 17:3

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." ASV
---scott on 8/20/11


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Mark,

let me help concerning 1John 5:20. "...we may know him who is true" this speaks of the Father. "He is the true God and eternal life". The Father is the true God. Jesus Christ gave us an understanding of this true God.

John also says this " this is the testimony, that God(the Father) gave us eternal life, and this life is in his(Gods) Son"(vs.11), "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God(the Father) is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son"(vs.9), "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God(the Father), and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him"(vs.1)
---willa5568 on 8/20/11


Marc,

Theos: whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way ,God's representative or viceregent, of magistrates and judges

Because it says God does not mean it has to be the God. Is that clearer for you? Why did Thomas say "the Lord of me, the God of me", because Jesus is the King, the seed of David and Gods representative (1Corinthians 15:23-28 also Joseph being exalted by Pharaoh which is a typology). It would be odd that 20:17 says Jesus wants Thomas to know he is going to their God and then is Thomas' God

John 20:23these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ(messiah), the Son of God" not to show Jesus is "God the Son".
---willa5568 on 8/20/11


Marc,

If you don't agree with my answer, that doesn't concern me, I gave what you asked.

Your turn to answer my question. Lets start with this one.

Focus focus focus

there is no God but one...yet for us there is one God, the Father 1Corithians 8:4,6

There is no God but one which Paul says is the Father. Jesus is Lord, whom God made Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36). How exactly do you explain the Father being the one and only person who is God(John 17:3, 1Timothy 1:17,. Ephesians 4:6, Mark 12:29[notice 32,33 when the expert says he and him, one person], and how does "God the Son" fit into this equation without changing what is written here?
---willa5568 on 8/20/11


Scott, let me see if I can break this up for you.

"And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding that we might know Him that is true. And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and everlasting life" ( 1 John 5:20).

Here is the declaration of the Holy Ghost, "We know" Says holy John, "that the Son of God has come" But how do we know that the Son of God has came? "by the personal and experimental manifestation of Him as the Son of God to our soul" (Gal. 1:16). And who understand and "Know Him that is true?" Those to whom "He has given an understanding"
---Mark_V. on 8/20/11


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Willa/Scott,

Focus. Focus. Focus.

Why did Thomas call Jesus ''THE GOD of me.''?

Focus on the question only about John 20:28.
---Marc on 8/19/11


Marc,

..Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him, just as you yourselves know. This man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed..But God raised him up..Acts 2:23-24


The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his servant Jesus Acts 3:13

YHWH, the God of there forefathers, glorified His servant Jesus but Jesus is YHWH too?

Address these please
---willa5568 on 8/19/11


Marc,

For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing Gods purpose at his appointed time. 1Timothy 2:6

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? Not only this, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation. Romans 9:10-11

God and Jesus are separate! We rejoice in God through, we are reconciled through and have a mediator between us and God. By the man Christ Jesus.
---willa5568 on 8/19/11


Marc,

there is no God but one...yet for us there is one God, the Father 1Corithians 8:4,6
There is no God but one which Paul says is the Father. Jesus is Lord, whom God made Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36). How exactly do you explain the Father being the one, only God(1Timothy 1:17), yet Jesus is God as well?

Romans 15:6, 2Corinthians 1:3, 11:31, Ephesians 1:2,3,17, James 1:27, 1Peter 1:1-3, Revelations 1:6, 3:12

Here's a few more to expound on if you so wish. I can go on and on. The Father being his God means every time Paul says "grace and peace from God the Father", it also is evidence Jesus isn't God. Jesus praying to the Father, who is his God, is also proof.
---willa5568 on 8/19/11


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Theos: whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way ,God's representative or viceregent, of magistrates and judges

it is not limited to God in the way you refer. And considering Jesus was Jewish, elohiym which is Hebrew, would agree with what I say as well, since it can refer to judges or rulers

Now you explain this. ..Go to my brothers and tell them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. Thomas, who Mary was to tell this, is as Jesus says, his brother and has the same God and Father. Jesus said the Father is the only God. Does not this reject his deity? God the Father has no brother and is the only God. Only means no other, including Jesus.
---willa5568 on 8/19/11


Marks,

I have an intriguing question. YHWH is three persons, yet they are one YHWH. YHWH in the OT says I, me, mine, my and so on. Is YHWH a thing or person? And if a person, how can he be three persons and say these personal pronouns? And if a thing, which is what you are saying, how can it speak as a person? Is YHWH a thing or person? YHWH the Father, YHWH the son, YHWH the holy spirit, three persons of the same "essence" but one YHWH. 1+1+1=1 essence? If YHWH is not a man that He should lie, He does not change, cannot be tempted, cannot die and has been seen by no man, did He change His mind and become a man and deny who He is, and submit to himself? Unless of coarse YHWH is a thing.
---willa5568 on 8/19/11


Scott,

'Fess up now: Are you really Willa?

"Both" of you are incapable of addressing a very simple point and prefer to bait and switch to another verse. Demonstrates a basic dishonesty and lack of courage to deal with the verse we're actually discussing.

Thomas called Jesus ''THE GOD of me.'' (John 20:28) This runs counter to your Watchtower dogma that Jesus is only a god.
---Marc on 8/19/11


"if Jesus is THE God of Thomas, how many THE Gods are there?"Marc

Well there is at least the one that Jesus referred to as HIS God three times. Rev 3:12

Does the Almighty God have a God? How many Almighty Gods are there?
---scott on 8/19/11


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Willa,

You didn't address my point but wandered off somewhere else.

Thomas called Jesus THE GOD.

If Jesus is not THE God of Thomas, why did he call Jesus that?

Alternatively, if Jesus is THE God of Thomas, how many THE Gods are there?

Remember, let's stick to one verse at a time and not go off on a journey elsewhere.
---Marc on 8/19/11


Mar(c)k,
John 20:17 Jesus replied..I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Mary was to tell this to Thomas, who was not present. Theos is not limited to God, it can also speak of God's representative or viceregent, who Jesus was. Explain this please. Jesus who is God, and knew he was prayed "that they may know you the only true God". How can the Father be the only true God, yet Jesus, who said the Father was the only God, acknowledge he is God? Is he confused or have you changed the meaning of only? In the OT YHWH says"I am the Lord your God, there is none besides me".
---willa5568 on 8/18/11


Willa 2: You are just like Thomas, but you are not blessed because you do not believe He is Lord of heaven and earth. That He came in the flesh to die in the flesh for your sin. You will always have a hard time believing it, because of the hardness of your heart. Without the Lord of heaven and earth, there is no Salvation. No matter how much you twist the Scriptures which speak of His incarnation. For the witness of Scripture is that He has always been the Son of God who came to die for your sins, spoken by the prophets and fulfilled by Christ Himself in the flesh.
---Mark_V. on 8/18/11


Willa,

Then why did Thoms call Jesus ''The Lord of me and THE GOD of me'' (John 20:28)?
---Marc on 8/18/11


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Willa, your just like Thomas. "flesh and blood cannot reveal this truths" Remember when Jesus appeared to the disciples and Thomas was absent? Jesus had just with the door close, where they were hiding? when Thomas was told that Jesus had appeared he was not convinced about who Jesus was. Eight days later the doors were locked again and Jesus appeared to them again. Jesus knew that Thomas did not believe He was the Lord of heaven and earth and in the flesh. When Thomas put his finger in Jesus hand and his hand on His side, Thomas answered Him and said, "My Lord and my God" John 20:19-29. Jesus said, "Have you believed because you have seen Me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"
---Mark_V. on 8/18/11


His power and authority was given to him as Psalms 110 says(Matthew 28:20 which was after his resurrection). He did not agree to go, the Father sent him(John 12:49, 14:24, 20:21)and he even prayed the cup he had to drink would be taken. Read Revelation 3:12, does he say that as a man at the Fathers right hand? Read Ephesians 4:4-6( One God and Father of all) the Father is the one God, also read 1:1-3,17. The Father is his God who Jesus said is only true God. Hebrew 13:20-21. YHWH is an I, me, mine, his, him(singular person), but you say he is three persons making one thing. I will not go in to the OT, it would take to long, but isn't Jesus the prophet Moses spoke of?
---willa5568 on 8/18/11


Mark,

And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.) Jesus will be subject always because everything he has, the Father, his God and ours, gave it to him. In Isaiah 9:6 it says "might God(el) not elohiym. "El" is not limited to God at all. Look in Brown Driver and Briggs Hebrew lexicon or Strongs. Elohiym can be judges, rulers, angels, gods or godlike as well. Psalms 110:1 YHWH says to my lord(which is adoni here and is never used in reference to God which would be adonai) is reference to his kingship on the throne of David, read the rest.
---willa5568 on 8/17/11


Willa, the doctrine you teach is a lie and not in Scripture. You deny the deity of Christ. In His humanness He was submissive to the Father. He had to be in order to fulfill what was written by the prophets. The Father and the Son from all eternity agreed, He would willingly come to be a sacrifice for sin. Old T. and New T. passages proves beyond doubt that the Christ of the New T. bears the title Jehovah or Lord in the Old T. Zech. 12:10 links Christ with Jehovah. "they shall look unto Me who they have pierced" Rev. 17: describes Christ in the same language. Jeremiah 23:5.6 Christ is declared to be "Jehovah our righteousness"
---Mark_V. on 8/17/11


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Willa 2: Similar comparisons are found in other passages (Ps. 68:18: Eph. 4:8-10: Ps. 102:12, 25-27 etc.
Christ is also identified as Elohim of the Old Testament. In Isa. 40:3, Christ is spoken of as both Jehovah and Elohim (Luke 3:4). In Isa. 9:6-7 Christ is called "The mighty God (Elohim)" It is apparent that Elohim in the Old T. is God in the New T. (Greek, Theos). Adonai is another Title from the Old T. meaning Lord, is often used of Deity as wll as human masters. It is used by Ps. 110:1. in a clear reference to the Second Peterson "Jehovah saith unto My Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies they footstool" there'ss much more. So, your are teaching a lie. You have the wrong Jesus.
---Mark_V. on 8/17/11


Markv, I love your answer to willa. The truth is the truth no matter if one believes it or not. Jesus was God in the flesh. They were one and are one. The Holy Ghost makes three. Some won't believe but it is called the Trinity.
---shira3877 on 8/17/11


Harold,

You've taken Hebrews 13:8 out of context. It sits among a list of moral and spiritual expectations about how we should be, not as an explanation of God's ontology.

The Bible is replete with examples of God changing his mind. For example the Golden Calf incident: ''So the Lord relented (i.e. changed his mind) from the harm he said HE WOULD do to his people.'' (Exodus 32:14)
---marc on 8/16/11


Mark,

You doctrine denies Gods word. Jesus plainly said he had a God but you have shown no where he said "I am God". You use, I and the Father are one, before Abraham was I am, which can be understood in a very different way, to make your doctrine correct. And you are correct, flesh and blood cannot reveal it. What is hard to understand, Jesus said the Father was his God whom he also said was the only true God. Peter preached he was a man that God worked through. Paul said the Father was his God, he is the man who mediated between us and God, and that there is one God, the Father. But "this was in his human nature"? That is not what scripture says, is a flat out lie and is idolatry.
---willa5568 on 8/16/11


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Willa, you have not been listening as usual. I'm not trying to convince you or to change you or to make you believe. I told you already that "Flesh and blood cannot reveal this to you, but only by our Father in heaven, He has to reveal it to your heart." All I do is put His Word on line for you to read. Not any problem for me to do. The fact is, that when a heretical view of Christ is mention, or a legalist answers, I get the complusion and joy to answer with the Word of God. Nothing I say, of my own, will ever turn you. Only the Father in heaven can, that is why I give His Word.
---Mark_V. on 8/16/11


He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and a gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1Peter 1:20,21)
Ephesians 1:4, same statement.
Christ was loved, we were chosen. None of this makes either preexistent.

You have presented your stance and I mine. This can continue for ages, so let us continue on in other discussions because you have given me nothing to prove him to be God and apparently I, nothing to prove he is not for you.
---willa5568 on 8/15/11


Nonetheless, because you have treated the LORD with such contempt in this matter, the son who has been born to you will certainly die-2Samuel 12:14

Then David prayed to God for the child and fasted. He would even go and spend the night lying on the ground-2Samuel 12:16

While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept because I thought, Perhaps the LORD will show pity and the child will live-2Samuel 12:22

I find it odd David would believe God may change his mind yet we are told He will not. God does not change His plan, but He can and does change His mind concerning men . Another example is Ahab!(1Kings 21:21-29) Also Hezekiah,
---willa5568 on 8/15/11


Mark,
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light(John 1:6-8)

Jesus said to them..Just as the Father has sent me, I also send you.(John 20:21)

John was sent from God and came to bear witness and we are sent by our Messiah, who spoke the words the Father told him, just as the Father sent him.

And I give you the words of Christ "this is eternal life, that they know you(the Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

The only true God sent Jesus, yet you do not believe he is the son of God.
---willa5568 on 8/15/11


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Hey Marc
What about these: God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, God does not change, if God can change his mind how can anyone rely on his salvation, he might just change it again.
What about his omniscience or is there something like mans sin that he doesn't know about.
---Harold on 8/15/11


It's interesting that people here deliberately alter what the Bible has recorded God said. Genesis 6 clearly states that the Lord said "I am sorry I made men" and that he was "grieved".

It's clear that God changed his mind about creating men. The language is not written to accommodate man's lesser brain, but to tell us EXACTLY what God felt.

Don't add your thoughts to Scripture as though your thoughts are Scripture.
---Marc on 8/15/11


Willa, I give you the words of Christ though you don't believe He is the Son of God.

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and have come into the world.." John 16:27,28.

Jesus said, the Father loves those who love Christ, because they believed that He came from God. And so He pray's to the Father
"I in them and You in Me, that they may become perfectly one, so that "the world may know that You sent Me and loved Me before the foundation of the world" John 17:23.

Since the foundation of the world the Father has loved Him. But you do not believe that He was sent by God, and One with God.
---Mark_V. on 8/14/11


Mark,

chose this day whom you will serve". What glory is there in creating something that can not chose to love you? God created man with a desire for man to love him not chose who will and will not love him. If your God is the true God then His love is not for the world and He does not desire anyone to come to the knowledge of Christ except those created to. You cannot desire something opposed to your plan. Thelo(desire) to will, have in mind, intend ,to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish
to love, to like to do a thing, be fond of doing to take delight in, have pleasure
---willa5568 on 8/13/11


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Willa, you will have to study to know that the desires of God and His decrees are totally different. You gave 1 Tim. 2:4 as proof that He desires something but cannot accomplish what He desire because somehow man won't let Him. There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin, He hates sin with all His being (Ps.5:4, 45:7), thus, He hates its consequences. God does not want people to remain wicked. Yet God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels" prepared for destruction for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Rom. 9:27).
---Mark_V. on 8/10/11


Josef, When one loves, they
desire the very best for those loved. True love is not negated by the others choices, whether good or evil. As a mother, i love my children regardless of their choices, and grieve over the poor ones. When we regret, we may wish we did not do what we did, or could undo it, but with God, being perfect and omniscient, I believe regret to simply mean to be sorrowful or to bring pain. Our loving God would of course feel sorrow and pain
over poor choices on the part of the loved one.
keeping in mind God's ultimate plan of salvation, which amazingly demonstrates His love, there is hope for something much greater, The end result surpassing the pain and sorrow.
---chria9396 on 8/9/11


Knowing all things does not mean having no feelings. lit.Hb: "When Yhwh saw that the wickedness of man was increased upon the earth, and all the imagination and thoughts of his heart was only evil every day, Yhwh regretted that he had made man upon the earth, and sorrowed in his heart, and said, I will destroy mankind which I have made, from off the face of the earth: from man to beast, the crawl and fowl of the air, for I am regretting that I have made them. But yet Noah found grace in the sight of Yhwh." Gn.6:5-8.
---Eloy on 8/6/11


God saw all that he had made and it was very good!(Genesis 1:31)

Then the LORD God commanded the man..you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die(Genesis 2:15,17)

..What is this you have done?..(Genesis 3:13)

This is what the LORD says, Give your household instructions, for you are about to die, you will not get well...I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears. Look, I will heal you(2Kings 20:21,25)

Do not harm the boy!...Do not do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God (Genesis 22:12)

since he wants(desires) all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth(1Timothy 2:4)
---willa5568 on 8/6/11


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Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Your insight into this, and your views concerning it, are appreciated.
---Josef on 8/4/11


It was not that God was sorry for having created man but that He was grieved because of the actions He must take against man because of their sins. It no more pleases God that he had to destroy the height of is creation in the flood than it does that He must cast some into Hell. God is righteous and must punish sin. Thank the Father that the Son took on that punishment for all that accept him as Lord.
---Harold on 8/4/11


Josef, I just don't understand how Christians can think of God as a man. He made the plan. It's before Him past present and future. He has written down for us. Has told us the beginning and the end. How could He regret what He made and is already complete before Him? It was His choice to create. His own reasons. He is never wrong. He is perfect. How could anyone even think He made a mistake is outside of my comprehension. God is Omnipotent also, and what that means is that God holds all power over His creation. No part of creation stands outside the scope of His sovereign control. If He is not Omnipotent, He is not God. Lets just give Him a name other then God.
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11


---James_L on 8/3/11
---aka on 8/3/11


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Josef,

I didn't regret having my son over a piece of cake, but if we tread outside of my ability to fathom,

If my son were to become a child rapist and murderer, I would regret ever having him.

If he became a staunch defender of evolution, and led millions of people to abandon their faith in Christ, I would regret ever having him.

Whatever the most wicked I can think of is how everyone on earth was acting in the time of Noah.

Ultimately, though, any analogy is going to fall short because we are trying to comprehend the incomprehensible.

If shape God into "something" that we can wrap our brain around, we will have a very unbiblical image of Him.
---James_L on 8/3/11


The expression used
"It repented the Lord that He had made man upon the earth" and "it grieved Him at His heart" is an expression of men, and must be understood so as not to reflect upon the honor of God's immutability or felicity. He never changes and He never fails. The writer, writes as if God were a man so that the readers can understand how wrong it is for man to sin from God's point of view. He wrote what He was inspired to write. Then the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them"
God created man so that he was able to fall. Christan is correct.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/11


Because although GOD is Omniscient, knowing all things aforetime, He still has feelings and emotions. He is Love itself. Therefore, as anyone who loves can testify, that it's PAINFUL when the ones you love spurn and reject you. When you reach out to people in love, and then they hate you and spit in your face, it HURTS. Plus, just because of the large degree of sin in mankind at that time. It caused ruin and destruction to His beautiful Creation. It would hurt an artist who painted a beautiful picture for someone to come along and flippantly douse it with black india ink, and then mutilate it to shreds.
---Gordon on 8/2/11


Very good James L, but do you regret having your son because of his actions? There is a difference between being disappointed in man's actions, and regretting that man was ever formed. I doubt seriously if you have ever regretted the fact that your son was born because of the selfishness that you knew beforehand is the nature of a child. I know that is a weak comparison, yet it is that type of comparison that I have difficulty explaining. However, you gave a great response. I agree Scott that the preordained provision for man salvation through His son is the ultimate show of love. So why destroy the man after making the provision? Yes Cluny, I agree. That is why I posted this question. Thanks all.
---Josef on 8/2/11


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---James_L on 7/31/11
---aka on 8/1/11


This verse is just before the flood in Gen 6. This verse shows the great amount of love God has for us. Even though we were evil and knew we would become evil. God still loved us. He stepped in to save us through Jesus who would come thousand years later.
---Scott1 on 8/1/11


I don't see why someone would think that God's omniscience must be compromised, just because He is disappointed.

I have a 5 year old son, and one on occasion he had a friend over. I cut two pieces of cake, not quite the same size, and told my son to offer one to his friend.

Guess which one I knew he would offer? The little one.

Guess which one he actually did offer? the little one.

I knew beforehand that my son would keep the biggest piece for himself, but I was still disappointed when it actually happened.

Was I surprised? no
---James_L on 7/31/11


God does not makes mistakes.

"Perfect is his activity."
De 32:4,5

MClintock and Strongs Cyclopaedia: "God...is said to repent [nacham', feel sorry], but this can only be understood of his altering his conduct towards his creatures, either in the bestowing of good or infliction of bad-which change in the divine conduct is founded on a change in his creatures...[in this way] God is said to repent." 1894, Vol. VIII, p. 1042

Gods righteous standards remain constant. (Mal 3:6, Jas 1:17) No circumstance can cause him to change his mind about these. However, the attitude and reactions of his intelligent creatures toward those perfect standards can change, causing God to feel either gladness or regret.
---scott on 7/31/11


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This is a good reason not to take Genesis literally. If it is literal, it means that God screwed up when he created human beings. :-)
---John.usa on 7/31/11


Some of the ancient stories in the Bible are told in terms that the primitive people of the time could understand.

A problem comes when people from other times read ancient stories with their contemporary understanding.

That's the problem you've fallen into.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/31/11


God gave us freewill, but he wished we would have used the better side of it,but Noah had! that is why in the day of wickedness he spared Noah and his family.
---Candice on 7/31/11


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