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Responsible For Your Actions

Is a person responsible for his actions even though God has ordained all things? Please give Scripture to support your believes.

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 ---Mark_V. on 8/1/11
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Nana, if predestination is nonesense, then you must know more then God. Are you God? Your passages proof nothing. Only that those who know about God and reject Him are responsible. That is True. You know yourself because I have told you, and you too are responsible. You have no execuse. "His visible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they (you) are without execuse, because although they knew God, the did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts..." Rom. 1:20-21.
---Mark_V. on 8/11/11


Man is accountable (responsible) thereafter he has heard and seen:
John 15:22: "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."
John 15:24: "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father."

James 4:17: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
Thus, as concerns accountability, 'predestination' and 'original sin' are nonsense.
---Nana on 8/11/11


Micha, I believe you gave a great passage, but those were the words King Artaxerxes was giving to the people of Israel and he was not defining what free will meant. God never said we had free will to come to Christ. God would not make a mistake when He knows the lost are in slaves to sin and believers are in slaves to Christ. The king was decreeing they had permission to volunteer. My New King James uses ( volunteer ).
---Mark_V. on 8/11/11


Francis, if you read the context of those words you would have known that James and the other leaders did not want the Gentiles to revel in their freedom in Christ, which could cause the Jewish believers to follow that same liberty and violate their conscience. So James proposed that the Gentiles abstain from 4 pagan idolatrous practices that were violations of the law of Moses so as to not offend Jews. So He finished that Moses for generations had preached in every city in the synagogues every Sabbath. He did not say that the Saturday Sabbath was still in effect.
---Mark_V. on 8/11/11


believers. Acts 15 is not in your Bible?
---leej on 8/10/11

yes it is an the apostles in acts 15 encourage the gentiles to be in synagogue every sabbath day to hear the word of God/ moses of old:

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY

Why would they say EVERY SABBATH DAY, if the gentile converts were going to church on sunday? WOuld you tell anyone that they could here the word of God EVERY SABBATH DAY IF IT WAS AVAILABLE EVERY SUNDAY?
---Francis on 8/10/11




Loraine Boettner points out much that is wrong with Roman Catholicism. For instance, they forbid divorce on any grounds but for the right fee, grant annulments.

And as one that believed in the soverignity of God, some on this forum would not care to read anything from one they would call a Calvinist.

See The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination - one of his better writings.
---leej on 8/10/11


The apostles write to gentile converts: Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If I were a gentile convert i would ask: Why is moses of old not preached every first day in our houses?

Then the gentiles request:

Acts 13:42 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

You mean all this teaching about Jesus, and the gentiles could not request paul to teach then on the NEXT day or next week sunday?

When protestant and JW come to my house, they always tell em about sunday or next sunday. But in the bible, both apostles and gentiles settle on EVERY SABBATH and NEXT SABBATH
---francis on 8/10/11


Mark V.,
Just because Loraine Boettner goes on an on on a rant, it does not make it the truth all he says. That "Lydia the seller of purple", could not be said that she was dead, blind or in need of a surgeon. She was not in need of an earthly call unto the heavenly such as John the Baptist issued, for it is stated that she already "worshipped God". Bunching all people and calling them dead and blind when they are not is not quite right. What would the wrong logic say next, that the men in Acts 19:1_7 were heathen and dead?
---Nana on 8/10/11


//francis If only you understood the reason, and value of circumcision.

If only you understood the rest the Christian has in Christ. Hebrews 4

And if only you understood that the Jerusalem council did NOT impose laws that were strictly Jewish onto Gentile believers. Acts 15 is not in your Bible?

While the Jewish Christians still continued in the Mosaic rites & customs, such was not practiced by Gentile believers.

If only you would try to read early church history you would learn that the successors of the Apostles did not teach Sabbath keeping. But you have chosen to remain blind to the truth, chosing instead to stand in judgment of those more knowledgeable of Christ and His word.
---leej on 8/10/11


Ezr 7:13-16 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. Forasmuch as thou art sent of the king, and of his seven counsellors, to enquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem, according to the law of thy God which [is] in thine hand, And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation [is] in Jerusalem, And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:
---micha9344 on 8/10/11




---leej on 8/9/11
If only you understood the reason, and value of circumcision
---francis on 8/10/11


Chria, thank you for asking. I can see by your answers you want to know the Truth for the glory of Christ.
You are correct that people have a choice. And the reason they are held responsible. But the choice they make while lost, will never be for Christ unless their wills are freed from the bondange of sin. That is why they do not have free will. They are free in a sense that no one puts a gun to their heads, but as for spiritual matters, they are dead in sin, spiritually dead. They cannot please God. While dead in sin, they are not willing to come to Christ or love Him. They cannot create a love for Christ on their own.
---Mark_V. on 8/10/11


Chria 2: Let me give you an example. As the physical eye once blinded cannot be restored to sight by any amount or intessity of light falling upon it, so the soul dead in sin cannot acquire spiritual vision by any amount of Gospel Truth presented to it. Unless the doctors's knife or a miracle restore the eye to its normal condition, sight is impossible. And so unless the soul be set right through regeneration it will never comprehend and accept the Gospel Truth. In regeneration God bids the sinner live, and immediately he is alive, filled with a new spiritual life.
Lydia the seller of purple gave heed to the things which were spoken by Paul because the Lord had first opened her heart (Acts 16:14).
---Mark_V. on 8/10/11


MarkV,micha9344 I've been prayerfully following your discussion. Mark, while I understand what you say of free will, (It tool a bit of time to process), I tend to agree with micha. wish to add Isaiah 65, especially vs 1-3. "1 I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me,
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, Here am I, here am I.
2 All day long I have held out my hands
to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
pursuing their own imaginations
3 a people who continually provoke me
to my very face..."
I believe God reveals Himself even to those who do not/will not choose Him, all creation testifies, and all have a choice.
---chria9396 on 8/9/11


//Because the doctrines of God remain the same in OT and NT, One can quote from any part of the bible and still be teaching the truth.

In other words, you are saying that the Apostles made a mistake at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) in that they did not impose Jewish laws onto Gentile believers?

If Jesus never changes, then does that mean physical circumcision is still required of believers?
---leej on 8/9/11


Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not,
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

Because the doctrines of God remain the same in OT and NT, One can quote from any part of the bible and still be teaching the truth.
Whenever we read the word " scriptures" in the NT, it referrs to the OT
Acts 17:11 and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And in Both OT and NT people are responsible for their own actions
---Francis on 8/9/11


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You want to try and use the responsibility of man to teach that the Old T. law still has us in bondage so we are responsible in keeping Saturday Sabbath. ---Mark_V. on 8/9/11
Where in this blod do you see anysuch thing from me?
You have a problem.
---francis on 8/9/11


MARK-V Ofcourse these are SDA teaching:

Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve,
Deuteronomy 30:19 I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Only because they are BIBLE teaching
---francis on 8/9/11


"Lee saw what you did so he answered."
---Mark_V. on 8/9/11
As I read what francis quoted and expressed, I find pettiness in Lee's comments.
Of course, the queen of petty will find such uncalled for comments as
timely... I did not see anything 'SDA' on francis repply. Do you (Lee and Mark v.)reserve to yourselves the sole right of quoting OT Scripture?

Very nice Lee, now Ruben (by your proding) gets back at you with "Eurcharist, Infant Baptism, Bible & Tradition, Faith & Works...", and there you have it, the blog has been redirected and hijacked even also by whom started it!!!!
FYI,
I am resposible for all I said.
---Nana on 8/9/11


francis, I answered the questions with passages concerning the question. You want to try and use the responsibility of man to teach that the Old T. law still has us in bondage so we are responsible in keeping Saturday Sabbath. But we are not responsible anymore. What was given to Old T. people was only the milk of the Truth which does not save anyone. Not the meat which brings salvation. I saw when you answered that you would find a way to introduce your SDA's believes, but I was not asking for been responsible for the Old Law. This was concerning what God ordained and how sinful we are even though He ordained all things. Lee saw what you did so he answered.
---Mark_V. on 8/9/11


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---Mark_V. You used six posts to say "and man is still held responsible for their wicked sins." I used one. Are you slow, or do you just feel that somehow you must contradict every post i post? ( EVEN WHEN YOU AGREE WITH WHAT I POST)

LEE what does the new covenant and Old covenaht have to do with people being responsible for their own actions?
---francis on 8/9/11


Anyone that has ever bothered to study early church history to see what hte successors of the Apostles taught should be able to see that.
---Lee on 8/9/11

You mean like the Eurcharist, Infant Baptism, Bible & Tradition, Faith & Works...
---Ruben on 8/9/11


//1: The entire Bible is the word of God, not just the NT, thus i gave scriptures from joshua, deuteronomy and also James.

While true not everything in the Bible is a command directed at us. For instance, God instructed Noah to go build a boat, He also commanded the Jews to observe the Sabbath, howbeit, neither of these commands pertain to the church as the church is under the New Covenant and not the old. Anyone that has ever bothered to study early church history to see what hte successors of the Apostles taught should be able to see that.
---Lee on 8/9/11


francis, what blog are you in? You are not in this one. I did answer the blog question. God foreordains everything that comes to pass and man is still held responsible for their wicked sins. If you took the time you would have known. And before you answered with what you did, God already knew what you would do, reject the Truth or believe it. Do it for the glory of God, for for your own glory. All I can do is give you the Truth. I cannot make you read it or believe it.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/11


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---Mark_V. on 8/8/
Sorry after 4 post i still have NO IDEA what you are saying. DO yourself afavour, just try to answer the blog question
---francis on 8/8/11


francis 3: And the biggest story ever told is the story of Jesus Christ. We are told that Christ was "Foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20. It was the ordained plan of God that Christ should come into the world, that He should suffer, that He should die a violent death, and thus make atonement for His people. God simply permitted sinful men to sinfully lay that burden upon Him, and overruled their sinful acts for His own glory in the redemption of mankind. Those who crucified Christ acted in perfect harmony with the freedom of their own sinful natures, and were alone responsible for their sins. And there is much more.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/11


francis, theres many Scriptures,
1. The sale of Joseph into Egypt by his brothers was a wicked act, they will be held responsible for. They were jealous of him and sold him and then lied to their father. Yet we see that it was overuled not only for Joseph's good but also for the good of the brothers themselves. When it is traced to its source we see that God was the author. It had its exact ordain place in the divine plan. Joseph later said to his brothers,
"And now be not grieved nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither, for God did send me before you to preserve life..So now it was not you that sent me hither but God..And as for ye meant evil against me, but God meant it for good" Gen. 45:5,8: 50:20.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/11


francis 2: in this story, God was not responsible for their wickedness. His brothers acted out of their own wicked hearts. All God did was permit them to act on their own sinful wicked actions, to accomplish His foreordain will. By the sale, Joseph was raised to power to be able to help the people.
2. It is also said that God hardened Pharoah. Ex. 4:21, 9:12. and the very words which God addressed to Pharaoh were,
"But in every deed for this cause have I made thee to stand, to show thee My power, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth"
God did not hardened a good heart, Pharaoh's heart was already hardened against God Ex. 5:2-9.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/11


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---Mark_V. on 8/6/11
PLEASE save your comment. It is useless and ridiculous.
1: The entire Bible is the word of God, not just the NT, thus i gave scriptures from joshua, deuteronomy and also James.

2: This is the blog question:
"Is a person responsible for his actions even though God has ordained all things? Please give Scripture to support your believes." It has nothing to do with if a person is lost or saved, so your comment on my James quote about being saved is baseless. PLEASE save your comments
---francis on 8/7/11


francis, i want to correct something I said when I answered you the last time. I said Paul was speaking in Hebrews 6 but it was the writer of Hebrews not Paul. I suppose I said Paul because I had just answered Paul. Sorry for that. I will give you an answer to your quesions later tonight. Have lots to do today. Peace I leave you
---Mark_V. on 8/7/11


Paul, if He drew all man to Himself, why are so many going to hell? If we were spiritually separated from God when lost, and He draws us to Himself (and you said all people), what then separates us from Him again? There is no curse after you have been saved. He has already spiritually baptized you into one body in Christ, made you a part of His bride. Placed you in the heavenly places with Christ. How can a person be separated again? There would be a lot of Scripture to indicate that. So, we do know if God draws you to Him, you are with Him forever. And as we know many are not with Him. So not all man are drawn to God.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/11


Paul 2, I decided to put the blog because I was sure you were interested in discussing Scripture. When you say, "my false teachings" My teachings come from God's Word. If you feel that something is false, give me reason and show with Scripture. Otherwise please do not accuse me for discussing the Word of God.
"Remember the former things of Old, for I am God, and there is none else, I am God and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure....Yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed, I will also do it" Is. 46:10,11.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/11


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francis, as I told David on another blog, you give passages that speak for the foundamentals taught in the O.T. In Hebrews 6, Paul was speaking to Jews who wanted to hold on to O.T fundamentals-the milk, the ones you are giving. Those people were not saved by repentance of dead works. They were the milk not the meat of the Word. The meat of the Word is salvation through faith in Jesus Christ works.
The James passages do not support your view, only gives the actions of man. Not whether he is saved or not. We all know those very well.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/11


Mark

My friend I truly am sorry, I feel If I had a friend here it was you.

But I must sign off Cnet, It is consuming way to much of my time and I am allowing myself to become someone I laid to rest years ago.

I have enjoyed our time together and hope we can maintain some kind of friendship, I gave info on the what church do you go to blog that will allow you to get in touch if you so desire.

I hope you do but if not I completely understand and again you can stream my broadcast Sun morn at 8:30. Life in the Word, just goggle fox radio 910, listen live.

If I don't hear from you I am sorry for disrespecting you and God bless you going in and coming out.

Love you like a brother, Paul
---paul on 8/6/11


Mark

I am a very abrupt person and for the most part it has served me well and allowed God to use me in ways He can not use others.

But If my words have offended you I truly am sorry and will be mindful of how God made you and consider that in my responses to you.

Dont take my comments personal, i do not intend them to be personal, as I said I think you are a good man.

One of the best here for sure, I cant believe some of the stuff I read here coming form self professed Christians.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 8/5/11


"No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11

I did not have enough space with this limited word count to fully explain my comment.

But what I am referring to is your false doctrine that says that only a select few will receive salvation when the Bible time after time says He died for ALL man kind.

That is limiting God to your interpretation and perception of who God is and what scriptures mean, possibly hindering someone to cry out to God.
And I ask you what have I said that did not need to be said or get personal with you?
I appreciate conversing with you but you do not have to respond to me if you don't feel inclined to do so.

Paul
---paul on 8/5/11


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Is a person responsible for his actions even though God has ordained all things? Please give Scripture to support your believes:

Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve,

Deuteronomy 30:19 I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We are responsible for our own actions.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
---francis on 8/5/11


"Just get out of His way and serve Him and let Him be God"
you would answer as best as you could with a godly answer,
---Mark_V. on 8/5/11

Are you saying this is an ungodly answer and if so what makes it so?

And yes i am saying that John 12:32 is saying that due to Him being lifted up, signifying His death, that he will/has drawn all men unto Himself.

Just as Moses lifting the serpent in the wilderness brought healing and salvation to all people in need through mercy, so did Jesus when he was lifted up offer healing to all people.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Please don't take my words personal that's not my intent.
---paul on 8/5/11


Paul, if you want to discuss things with me, please do not accuse me of anything unless you give me the reason.
You said,
"why do you limit God" without a reason for saying it. You say stuff and no reason for saying what you say. You get personal. If you accuse me of something please explain?
Concerning ( John 12:32 ) you gave it, so now give me the context and interpretation of what that passage means to you. You are not suggesting that the passage means that because He is lifted up all man will be drawn to the Father and given to Him, or you? I will stop answering you until you do. I don't want to be accuse of something else.
---Mark_V. on 8/5/11


Paul 2: you wanted me to answer your questions concerning God. It was not concerning me. I'm sure if someone you were teaching ask you a question or gave you and answer you did not like, you would not tell him,
"Just get out of His way and serve Him and let Him be God"
you would answer as best as you could with a godly answer, giving him Scripture and context so that he could learn. If this answers I give make you stumble, then please do not answer. I do not want to make anyone stumble discussing the Word of God. Thanks
---Mark_V. on 8/5/11


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His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside himself.
---Mark_v. on 8/5/11

This is exactly what free will is.

And why are you pleading the intent of the will case? No one has said that a man can use his own will to come to God.

That is not what I am discussing here, what i am discussing is whether or not man has a free will of his own to be able to do or not do what God says.

And therefore be held accountable to God for his actions.

I don't know why were discussing whether or not a man can use his will to come to God.
The Bible plainly teaches no one can come to Christ lest the Father draw him, but then He said If He be lifted up He will draw all men unto himself.

---paul on 8/5/11



Mark

It is also written
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Did you catch that ALL MEN part of that declaration?

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joh 7:37- 38
John 14:23
And so on and so forth,
Mark you seem like a good man, why do you try so hard to limit God?
Just get out of His way and serve Him and let Him be God
---paul on 8/5/11


Paul, concerning Romans 1, He finds them guilty because although He shows His attributes, they are not willing to give Him glory, honor or thanks. Man possesses a fixed bias of the will against God. Man is free, but cannot originate the love of God in his heart. His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside himself. Just as a bird with a broken wing is "free" to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates Him? Jesus said,
" And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather then the light, for their works were evil" John 3:19.
---Mark_v. on 8/5/11


Donna5535 2: in the final analysis it is not a question of the sinner's willingness or unwillingness, for by nature all are unwilling. Willingness to come to Christ is the finished product of Divine power and operating in the human heart and will in overcoming man's inherent "enmity"
For by nature the sinner is at enmity with God, and if not for Divine power operating within him, he would remain at enmity. For it is written
"Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power" ( Ps. 110:3). For it is written:
"No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11


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Paul, how can God judge if the choice had no moral significance?
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11

You keep speaking of motives, the will is motivated by our desires or lusts.
An idle word is without intent or motive yet we will give account for it. Why?

Because we have been made privy to Gods will through a conscience which has been give to all men by Gods revelation to all, which as your reference in Rom 1 teaches that we are all without excuse.
Knowing the will of God it is up to us to keep our will in line with His as Jesus in the garden.
You are attempting to say man is not subject to Gods judgment for lack of motivation to do right by mans will,
We have a will and a responsibility to line it up with Gods
---paul on 8/4/11


God forordained everything that comes to pass.
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11

This is not true, In your logic this is how it is but that does not make it so.

You cant prove that God ordained someone to rape children, molest babies, kill the innocent and perform all the atrocities that men do based upon their own sick twisted desires, that is inaccurate and not an accusation that can be placed on God.

If we are under Gods absolute control then why does he tell us to conduct our vessels unto honor and then give us His Word to teach us to do so?

What your passively saying is that man has no say and that God is forcing His will.
---paul on 8/4/11


Donna5535, first if I mention "you" while answering, it's not refering to you personally. That's for everyone.
God does say choose. It can never be said He never gives man a choice, for He refuses no one who wants to come. Man will not choose Christ because man has no desire for Christ so is not willing. His will is in bondage to sin. God, the Spirit has to induce everything necessary for you to be willing. Makes you alive to Christ, gives you faith and repentance, and when you see your rebellion against God you will ask for forgiveness and ask Him to be Lord of your life. When you choose Christ, you will have a motive because your desire is now for Christ. He gives you the desire for Christ. People lost have no desire for Christ.
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11


Paul, you said,
"OK, so do you feel you excercisde your own will here or do you feel God orchestrated these events?"
God forordained everything that comes to pass. He knew what I would do and what I would choose. He did not make me choose evil, I chose to sin, it was my choice, my own motives. When I look back, I thought I had done great, but I hadn't. God already knew what I would do and how my life would turn out. How my wife would die, and how I will too some day. I'm held responsible for what I do. He chose to save my wife before she died. And I'm so thankful that He came into our lives. Now I have a different motive, that is for Christ. I now am inslave to Christ. My will is not free, I'm free from the bondage of sin.
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11


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Mark_V, I think you left out the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit.

Of course God gives everyone a free will, "I put before you life and death, choose life." (Deuteronomy)

The HOLY SPIRIT LEADS AND GUIDES. HE DOES NOT PUSH AND SHOVE AND MAKE US DO SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT TO DO. It's called a "choice."

Why didn't the Holy Spirit stop Eve from eating the fruit? Because she had a choice. God tells us to CHOOSE LIFE. But God knows some folks will choose to get angry and murder someone. It's not His fault. He doesn't lead a person to murder someone, that is what the devil does. WE ALLLL have a free will. CHOOSE LIFE!
---Donna5535 on 8/4/11


What I did in my marriage that also caused this to happen to me. I was just as guilty as her.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/11 FROM cheated no unsaved husband blog

Mark

OK, so do you feel you excercisde your own will here or do you feel God orchestrated these events?

Their is no middle ground of God allowed it to take place.

It was your will or His that caused it.
---paul on 8/4/11


Paul, how can God judge if the choice had no moral significance? Romans 1:18-23 talks about the wrath of God, it is showing us that even though we knew about God we did not honor Him as God nor gave Him glory nor thank Him. Why? because we did not want to. Our motives were not for God.
The will of the lost person is in bondage to sin. The will of a save person is in bondage to Christ (God). Neither of them have free will. There wills are for or against God. "Why do you not understand My speech? "because you are not able to listen to My words" He does not listen because he has different desires?
"You are of your father the devil, and "the desires of your father you want to do"
---Mark_V. on 8/4/11


I'm not sure I understand the comment about "motive". Without "motive", every action would be unintentional.
Both men and God have "motives".
God has free will. He would not be GOD if he didn't. NO ONE tells God what to do.


However, in His Word, God often tells US what to do...but doesn't necessarily force us.

There are many things also about which we have NO choice!
Circumstances occur daily over which, we have NO control. Does everything happen by chance? If God has "free will", not likely.

How many times do you recall "circumstances" that, LIKE IT OR NOT changed the whole direction of your life? Accident? Or under God's control?
---Donna66 on 8/3/11


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If a choice just happens, pop's out, with no rhyme or reason for it, then it cannot be judged good or bad.
---Mark_V. on 8/3/11

Mark

These choices which just pot out do so as a result of the laws God has placed in our hearts.

He gives us His Word to gauge our actions by therefore they are not arbitrary or random by nature but premeditated based upon our perception of right and wrong.

When Eve took that first bite we were declaired free thinkers with the ability to discern independent of God.

Free will may not be in the Bible but the will of man is.

And that is the will a man has inside himself that is independent of God though Influenceable by God.

Were judged for what WE do.

Paul
---paul on 8/3/11


Strongaxe, thanks for answering. Good Scripture. Many like those in Scripture. Choose. And guess what? They are not willing. Why? Because they have a natural ability like all humans, but not a spiritual ability. If anyone could come on their own, God would never reject them. But guess what? They have no spiritual ability. They just don't want to come to Christ. Why? Because they are in bondage to sin. They cannot escape from bondage, God has to set them free, so they are able and willing. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: For they are foolishness unto him, and "he cannot" know them, because they are spiritually judged"
---Mark_V. on 8/3/11


Alan, I just want you to think about what I am going to say.
If a persons will is free, from any desires are inclination, or motives, and he makes a spontaneous choice, then the choice has no moral significance. If a choice just happens, pop's out, with no rhyme or reason for it, then it cannot be judged good or bad. When God evaluates our choices, He is concern of our motives. The second fault free will has is, if the will is totally neutral (free) why would it choose right or left? For anyone to take a step in one direction, we would need to have a motive or inclination or desire. Without motive there would be no choice.
That is why the Bible does not speak of free will. People have a motive. Its not free.
---Mark_V. on 8/3/11


Mark_V.:

Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
(See also Deuteronomy 30:19, Job 7:15)

Free will is essential for judgment. If Adam was a pre-programmed automaton, he would have done exactly what God had programmed him to (i.e. avoiding the tree). The only reason God had reason to judge Adam, was that he was told to do one thing, but he freely chose to do something else. Obedience is a matter of choice.
---StrongAxe on 8/3/11


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What I did in my marriage that also caused this to happen to me. I was just as guilty as her.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/11 FROM cheated no unsaved husband blog

Mark

Not trying to tare scabs off, but how can you believe man has no free will and that God orchestrates everything in our lives.

But still feel you played any role through your freewill to build up or tare down your marriage?

Not trying to contradict, simply trying to understand.

Is it freewill, no freewill or partial freewill?

And where does our responsibility start and or stop?
---paul on 7/31/11

The phrase free will:
It's mans will aside from Gods will which involves FREE thinking producing free will.

---paul on 8/3/11


Mark_V - didn't King David suffer the consequences of his sins when he was KING of Israel?

He committed adultery and had Bathsheba's husband murdered. This thing that David did displeased the Lord.

So the Lord took David's son away when he was born from Bathsheba.

We ALL suffer the consequences of our sins, Christians and non-Christians.

It's the reap and sow law of God. Don't be fooled, God is not mocked, what so ever a man sows, that shall he reap.

If you sow lies, you will be lied to. And on and on.
---Donna5535 on 8/3/11


Mark V.,
I appreciate the start of this conversation in the correct attitude on both our parts. I have been guilty of reponding without love at times. May I continue to respond befitting Christ.
Maybe our definition of 'free' is different, or at least similar, but not in certain respects.
I have re-read your post a few times to get an imporession of what you mean by 'free'
I have pondered the notion of 'if it is free, it has no motive'(paraphrase).
I must direct you at this time, if my paraphrase is acceptable, to the free gift bestowed upon us through Christ Jesus.
Was there no motive in that which was free?
Does this mean that God does not have freewill, since there is motive involved?
I look forward to your response.
---micha9344 on 8/3/11


Hi MarkV,
apologizes as i dont have the script,but it goes something like ," lean not on Our own understanding."
o.O and "God's ways are Higher"
personally i believe once You give Your life to Christ,it is not Your's anymore so You got no control.
---kevin5443 on 8/3/11


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Mark ... You open up the same old difficulty ... You say that if we have freewill, God can't judge us.

How then can He possibly judge us if we are behaving exactly as He makes us behave?

How can He punish us for doing what He makes us do?

How can it be called disobedience when we are doing what His predestination MAKES us do?

You interpretation of God's omnipotence, by which we are turned into mere puppets, makes a nonsence of the words judge, justified, punishment and disobedience.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/3/11


i think so.Deut 30:19 says "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
we are offered choices to make...
---mj on 8/3/11


There's no mentioned in the Bible people have free will, for a good reason. If the will is free, God cannot judge man's actions. ---Mark_V. on 8/3/11

You play a dangerous game teaching error with no scriptural foundation other than desire and self logic. Dangerous thing you play at.

Abel Killed Cain of his own free will.
Israel preformed "free will" offering to GOD.
David sacrificed of his own will. Witnesses.
The disciples followed or didn't follow....of their own free will.
Christ chose sacrificial death of his own free will. Being tempted of his self/adversary of other choices.
---Trav on 8/3/11


Micha, thanks for your answer. There's no mentioned in the Bible people have free will, for a good reason. If the will is free, God cannot judge man's actions. The will is never without bias. It always has a reason for choosing what it chooses. If it was free, and we made a decision it could not be judge, right or wrong, because it had no motive. So it's not free. It mentions the will of God and the will of man. And when the will of man is mentioned, it almost alway's says the will of the lost is always rebelious and disobedient. As far as loving Him, we love Him because he first loved us believers. No one who is not saved loves Christ, they are blind, deaf, and children of wrath. In fact they are running away from Christ.
---Mark_V. on 8/3/11


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The whole Old and New Testaments speak about man's responsibilities! And we know from experience that we will be forced to make decisions.
Just how much is determined in advance by God, we really can't know.

Oddly, the same person who insists on his right to direct his own life, may well turn around and claim that all the bad things that happen to him or around him are somebody else's fault.
If he is poor, it's because of the rich. If he commits a crime, it's due to poor "parenting". If He is misunderstood, the other person is "stupid". If he can't pay his bills, somebody is taking advantage of him.

If he decides not to get serious about God, Who does he blame when tragedy strikes?
You guessed it.
---Donna66 on 8/2/11


It is impossible to truly love without freewill.
Does this make God without effect? Heaven forbid!!
Nay, it establishes our Creator, who made man in His likeness.
Does God not know? Of course He does!!
It is the Truth of the Gospel that sets us free, free to become a child of God, heirs unto salvation, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, growing in the Truth of His Word.
---micha9344 on 8/2/11


Paul, here is your chance. You wanted to discuss this questions on another blog and I said I would start one, so go for it. Here is your opportunity. Pick-up your Sword and go for it. What are your questions? So that everyone can answer.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/11

Mark

Thank you for starting this post for that purpose, and we are in the progress of discussing the matter as we type.

You have already asked the question so the ball is in play.

So with sword in hand gallantly jump headlong into the convo.

Here we go,

If God is causing every single thing to happen in your life, and you have zero input through freewill, then how can a just God cause us to give an account for what He has caused in our lives?
---paul on 8/2/11


responsible for actions. let's see
proverbs say
that the diligient will prosper,
having skills will make you succeed
farmer who works his land will have abundant food

but pastors tell you to obey, that self reliance is SIN & just give your 10%. so when you obey them & fail you are condemned that you LACK OF FAITH.
NO SEnSE at all
---mike on 8/2/11


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Paul, here is your chance. You wanted to discuss this questions on another blog and I said I would start one, so go for it. Here is your opportunity. Pick-up your Sword and go for it. What are your questions? So that everyone can answer.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/11


Is a person responsible for his actions even though God has ordained all things?

How and why have He so ordained so many things? One in particular:
Romans 11:4 "... I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

Romans 11:8_10 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway."

The word recompence, do you know what it means?
---Nana on 8/1/11


what about those who died in waco tx & jonestown? I notice that when somebody disagree with another they are labeled or accused of 'lack of faith' disobedient which is sin. how can you exercise your free will when you are brainwashed?
---mike on 8/1/11


Yes! he gave us freewill,so we are responisble for what we do.
---candice on 8/1/11


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Ro 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

God sets all things into motion were accountable to God for our stewardship concerning what we have been given.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Mt 25:14 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
15 "And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability, and immediately he went on a journey.

We'll show how our will aligns with the Fathers Will.
---paul on 8/1/11


Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

in light of these words, do my beliefs matter?
---aka on 8/1/11


Here's just a few of the verses that says, yes we're responsible.2Cor.5:9-10, Wherefore we labour that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him. For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that everyone may receive the things done on the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Matt.12:36, But I say unto you, That every idle word that men speak, they shall give an account thereof in the day of judgement.
Rom.14:12, So every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1Pet.4:5,Who shall give to Him that is ready to judge the quick & the dead.
---Reba on 8/1/11


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