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Best Church Structure

What do you feel is a better Church structure, non-denominational or denominational? And for what reason?

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 ---paul on 8/12/11
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Francis

When a church would spread as it should their would be no grantee that all the pastors in all the home churches would or could be known after massive population growth in the early church.

So that argument is segmented to a very small time frame indigenous to Paul's day.

And non-denoms are in alot of cases linked together from city to city.

If transferable membership is what you consider church structure, consider this.

In the satanic churches their is a high arkey with known members where membership is transferable so what does that prove.

If you like the predictability of the Catholic church that is great for you, but don't denigrate what should be your family for the sake of preference.
---paul on 8/17/11


which ever one works... why ? because it works....
for example i am non-denom,yet i run the office of the local baptist church..why? because someone has to ,and the non-denom church in this town is way too legalistic :(
---kevin5443 on 8/17/11


---paul on 8/17/11
Sorry all the pastors in my church do believe the same that is why we are a church/ denomination.
All the priest in the RCC believe the same. That is the proper church structure.

PAUL how could you not know the structue of the church?

I gave you many example why your structure is flawed, you asked I answered with scripture and examples.

The word of God assures us that ALL members must have THE SAME DOCTRINE
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

why faithful men? because they will continue to teach the TRUTH, thus a structure where all men of God teach THE SAME TRUTH
---Francis on 8/17/11


Francis

Please head this.

No church, even yours, believes the same.

How do you know my church is not exactly like Christs and yours is.

It all boils down to interpretation of scripture.

Who is to say who is right or wrong and how do you determine it, by the Word which we already determined is translatable.

So I do because you say so or visa versa.

What you are is intolerant and ignorant of God, why else would you speak against something that is of the Father for the Father and by the Father.

If you truly had Him in your heart you would not attempt to destroy a church, just as I would never do to your church whether I agree with your doctrine or not.
Truly hope you see this.

---paul on 8/17/11


ever denomination, every church says the same thing" God shows outand blesses"

In a biblical church structure, when one member leaves a city to go to another city, he knows who his pastor is before he gets there. EXAMPLE: The apostle paul would know that if he went to a certain city peter would be the pastor, or Timothy, or titus. If a non denominational member leaves one city he has to in your own words " LOOK FOR A CHURCH."
Where as others go to THE church. Catholic for example do not have to look for a church, they know before hand who their bishop, parish priest and local priest is BEFORE they get to that city. That is a biblical structure
---Francis on 8/17/11




Francis If you would know where we failed and denominations succeeded there would no longer be need for non-denominational church to exist. with all due respect we are only there because you failed Christ's standards.
---andy3996 on 8/17/11


Did that suprise you or did you really think your structure was biblical?
---Francis on 8/17/11

My structure is Biblical, and it is only your opinion that says it is not.

God shows up their and blesses so He thinks its Biblical and that is all that matters to me.

Paul
---paul on 8/17/11



---paul on 8/16/11
Jesus is the same is not about the person, beacuse once he was a boy and he grew up to be a man. It is his DOCTRINES
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange DOCTRINES

The structure of non-denominational churches is that they endorse a variety of pastors from different denominations and some of non-denominations which has different doctrines

Thus they cannot be the church which God speaks of

PAUL you asked the question about scructure, I am just showing that in both administrative and doctrinal structure non-denominations are faulty. Did that suprise you or did you really think your structure was biblical?
---Francis on 8/17/11


"Francis" ...non-denominational structe does not have the same doctrine
cannot rightly ordain elders in every city
Members have to "look for a church" in every city they go
Does not have a chain of accountability
however you have a good knowledge upon your own denomination, you don't seem to understand that a "non-denominal church-structure" can be more austere and severe as a denominal one. and a denominal church structure can be way looser then the non-denominal.
On the other hand, and here i agree with Paul, however we try to explain "how it works" you only seek quarrel as it appears. Please accept that different churches(even within the same denominations have different ways.
---andy3996 on 8/17/11


\\My reasons include the fact that non-denominational structe does not have the same doctrine
cannot rightly ordain elders in every city
Members have to "look for a church" in every city they go
Does not have a chain of accountability
---Francis on 8/16/11\\

You don't actually think that the SDA has the authority to ordain elders ANYWHERE, do you, francis?

Only BISHOPS of the apostolic succession have the authority to ordain presbyters and deacons.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/17/11




Francis

Now lets look at the good things from a non-denom church, same as a denom.

Saves souls
Worships God
Visits widow
Visits fatherless
Uplift saints
Educate saints
Feed hungry
Offer assistance
Heals infirmaries
Gives hope
Inspires change
Promotes holiness
Counsels those in need
Sings praises
Teaches children
Fellowship
Grows future leaders
Promotes unity in community
Represents Christ
Offers family support
Encourage growth and development
Outreach programs
Assist churches
Spread Gospel
Officiations
Marital counseling
Family planning

And these are a few services just off top of my head, I think the pros have it.

Paul
---paul on 8/17/11


My reasons include the fact that non-denominational structe does not have the same doctrine
cannot rightly ordain elders in every city
Members have to "look for a church" in every city they go
Does not have a chain of accountability
---Francis on 8/16/11

None of which you have proven to be true.

I mean you no disrespect but these are matters for Church leaders of which you are not.

You have answered the question with your opinion and it is duly noted.

Paul
---paul on 8/16/11


Cluny, "But how do you know for sure this is the Lord speaking in either case?"
How does one ever know?
First of all, they must be born again.
His sheep know His voice Jn 10:16.
if it lines up with the Word of God.
Cluny, How is it you believe something is from God?
---Chria9396 on 8/16/11


\\Do you think it's possible for the Lord to speak the same message, at the same time in 2 different places without any planning on the part of man?\\

Yes absolutely. I was having dinner with friends last Friday. Our waiter was looking depressed. One said I want to give him an extra $20 dollar tip. The other said he had the same feeling at the exact same time. How do I know it was God was because it was good and God is always good. It is also called confirmation. HS will pour out ideas for ministry when we are open to it. And he also gives the idea to many people for confirmation.
---Scott1 on 8/16/11


Francis

Jesus is the same always.

I have answered all this already.

I find you very unqualified to be a serious voice in this matter thus exhausting my interest with you.

You will reject my attempts no matter how valid.

So good luck and good by, its not in you to know these matters.

Find your calling and stick to it.

You cant even answer a basic question.

Paul
---paul on 8/16/11


Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
My pastor can go to any city and ordain an elder, knowing that this elder hold the same doctrinal belisfs as he does.
how does one ordain another or even endorse another who does not hold the exact same doctrinal beliefs?
If you beleive in a pre millinium tribulation, now can you endirse a post millinium believer?
If you believe that people go to heaven the moment they die, how can you endorse one who believes that the are in the graves until resurrection?
---francis on 8/16/11


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What is your desired outcome and intention.
---paul on 8/16/11
All i do is answer the blog question: " What do you feel is a better Church structure, non-denominational or denominational? And for what reason?"

My reasons include the fact that non-denominational structe does not have the same doctrine
cannot rightly ordain elders in every city
Members have to "look for a church" in every city they go
Does not have a chain of accountability
---Francis on 8/16/11


Let say you are correct that only ones who believe identically will make it to Heaven, then who will they be.
---paul on 8/16/11

My purpose in this blog is not to identify correct doctrine, or right denomination, but to answer your question. To be a church, members in brazil must believe idetically to members n Germany. When there is a difference in beliefs a conference must be called.

A good church structure has a level of countability, that if one pastor in Japan, preaches something different than one is ST. Lucia, then comeonething must be done.

This is not the case in non-denominational structure. You can preach whatever pleases you, and who is to stop you?
---Francis on 8/16/11


---paul on 8/16/11
If you think for one minute that the apostles has different teaching and different beliefs then you are wrong.

Ac 15:2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

Please study to show thyself approved and stop giving emotional based jargon.

Paul
---paul on 8/16/11


But how do you know for sure this is the Lord speaking in either case?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/16/11

Cluny

How do you know it is not?

I've noticed when it comes to anything supernatural about God you tend to be super skeptical.

Have you never had a spiritual encounter with God?

He is a Spirit and He moves in the spiritual realm.

It is more than an intellectual choice to follow Christ it is also a spiritual journey.

This means different things to different people but spiritual none the less.

Where does your spiritual skepticism stem from?

I am not a hyper spiritualist but I do enjoy Gods Spiritual manifestations.

Paul
---paul on 8/16/11


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\\Do you think it's possible for the Lord to speak the same message, at the same time in 2 different places without any planning on the part of man?\\

In theory, yes. I'm not denying the possibility.

But how do you know for sure this is the Lord speaking in either case?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/16/11


---paul on 8/16/11
If you think for one minute that the apostles has different teaching and different beliefs then you are wrong.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

Jesus is the same always and his DOCTRINES are the same. the church does not have different doctries among them, that was addresses:
1 Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you, and I partly believe it. For there must be alsoHERESIES among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

THE DIFFERENT DOCTRINES OF THENON-DENOMINATIONAL CHURCHES ARE HERESIES
---Francis on 8/16/11


Francis

What is your desired outcome and intention.

Would you like for me to stand in the pulpit Sunday morning and tell Gods people that because they have different views that they are not truly Christs people?

And close down Clearview Church because we don't all believe the same and differ from main stream churches and "your" church?

I hope this illustrates to you how ridicules your premise is.
---paul on 8/16/11


Francis

One mind is a mind to serve Christ

This is getting old, no matter how hard you try you will not find scriptures that say everyone must believe the same in order to be a Christian or a Church.

I'm glad you have a concordance and you know how to use it for word searches.

But If you will study the Word you will find a God who realizes diversity in people, we see it with how He dealt with different peoples personalities.

Let say you are correct that only ones who believe identically will make it to Heaven, then who will they be.

I will not carry on this foolishness with you for I am way to busy for it.

You answer my question and I will continue our conversation.

Paul
---paul on 8/16/11


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1 Corinthians 11:18 I hear that there be divisions among you, and I partly believe it.
For there must be also HERESIES among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
---Francis on 8/16/11

Francis

DO NOT take Gods Holy Word and corrupt it to make it what you need it to be to prove your point.

The scripture in 1 Cor you quoted is Paul rebuking the Church at Corinth for a specific fault.

They were eating and drinking unorderly in the House of our precious Lord and he was correcting them on that regard.

This is a very deceitful tactic and case in point to why men differ in the Word.

You are taking scripture and twisting them in an attempt to recreate the meaning.

---paul on 8/16/11


---paul you are wrong
Romans 15:6 That ye may with ONE MIND and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of ONE MIND,

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of ONE MIND,

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Do people at times have different teachings? YES! It is called HERESY

1 Corinthians 11:18 I hear that there be divisions among you, and I partly believe it.
For there must be also HERESIES among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
---Francis on 8/16/11


Cluny, Thanks for your question, it is important to guard against believing something on the basis of feelings, but rather search the Word. Yes, I've had objective (as opposed-to subjective) "evidence"...that was of the Lord....the Spirit DOES testify, and confirms WITH THE WORD. I can assure you that was one thing I prayerfully checked into. How to prove that to you, I am not sure. I believe the Spirit is able to bring into one accord even those separated by distance, in different denominations, all who are of the BOC.
Cluny, i have a question for you. Do you think it's possible for the Lord to speak the same message, at the same time in 2 different places without any planning on the part of man? Why/why not?
---Chria9396 on 8/16/11


there is more, but Paul do you suppose that those ordained bishops in every ( different cities) had also different beliefs?
apparently, when reading Paul's letters to the churches one can see that Paul continuously needed to remind them of their unity in Christ
also Peter needed to "vouch for Paul" in one of his letters, since others allready started to misuse scriptures.
---andy3996 on 8/16/11


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Paul do you suppose that those ordained biships in every ( different cities) had also different beliefs?
---francis on 8/15/11

If they had the ability to process thought they had a different belief of some sort.

On the fundamental belief of Christ and Him crucified they were all of the same accord on matters of salvation.

Its the matters of sanctification where they and men today differ.

Read Acts 15 and you will find that this is no new thing for men of God to differ.

The oneness is through salvation, I know you just want to be right but you are wrong.

I know that is hard to cope with but its gona happen in life.
This does not disqualify someone from ministry or determine Churchship.

---paul on 8/16/11


id Jesus tell us to have a "church structure?" Did Paul? br>---Donna5535 on 8/15/11
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

there is more, but Paul do you suppose that those ordained biships in every ( different cities) had also different beliefs?
---francis on 8/15/11


Scott1 on 8/15/11 This is pauls statement "It is more likely for a non-denom to believe the same all across the world simply because most have found error in most main stream denominations which unifies."
---paul on 8/14/11

I would like to test it. Now denominatioal CHURCHES must have the same beliefs or they could not call themself a church
---francis on 8/15/11


//I would like to test Paul and Chria9396 theory of unified beliefs in non-denominational church.//
Francis

I would like you to test to see if all of the same denomination churchs have the same belief. I think you would be surprised that the numbers are fairly equal. Do not confuse precepts and preferences. I go to a non-denom church but I am mostly baptist. There are somethings baptist do well but then there are somethings that we do not do well. Don't miss the forest because of the tree.
---Scott1 on 8/15/11


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Did Jesus tell us to have a "church structure?" Did Paul? Did the Apostle Peter?
---Donna5535 on 8/15/11
YES they all did
---Francis on 8/15/11


Did Jesus tell us to have a "church structure?" Did Paul? Did the Apostle Peter?

I think they didn't call themselves anything except BELIEVERS. And if I had a church, I'd call it "God's House" or House of Believers in Him.

When people put labels on themselves (I was raised a Catholic) and I didn't get a thing out of Catholicism except God is in heaven and the belief in the Trinity. So I came out of it COMPLETELY and now call myself a Believer in Christ Jesus -why can't we just do that?
---Donna5535 on 8/15/11


\\A friend of mine in China would share what God was speaking to his church, and I would share the same. Amazing how God was/is able to do and speak by His Spirit the same thing, \\

Do you have any objective evidence that this is God speaking?

Or are you just assuming that it is, because you "feel" it is so?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/15/11


I would like to test Paul and
Chria9396 theory of unified beliefs in non-denominational church.

What i would like to do, is find out how many here are members of non-denominational churches, then pose a few doctrinal question. If it is true that they all have the same beliefs all answers MUST be the same with supporting scriptures.
ANY TAKERS?
---Francis on 8/15/11


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\\Do you honestly believe that from the time of Paul until now that the doctrine through all of the hardships of the Orthodox Church has remained intact and unblemished.

Or do you believe that men through the ages have done their best to preserve the Churches doctrine and relied upon the guidance of the Spirit in matters of question?\\

It's not either/or.

It's both/and.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/15/11


At times I have been privileged to see the unity of the Spirit in different nondenominational church bodies on opposite ends of the globe. A friend of mine in China would share what God was speaking to his church, and I would share the same. Amazing how God was/is able to do and speak by His Spirit the same thing, without anyone consulting one another, or a man made calendar. The church there is so unlike here, meeting where and when they can, always on the move to escape detection by authorities. There the harvest is plentiful, and the reaping unlike what is seen many times in our USA. It is also a persecuted church, much here remains in certain comfort zones, as do our "Christians"
---Chria9396 on 8/15/11


So you are saying again that because churches may very in doctrine that they are not churches.
---paul on 8/14/11

NOT ME THE BIBLE:

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling,

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
---Francis on 8/14/11


From what has been handed down from the Apostles, received, lived, put into practice, and passed down to us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/11

Do you honestly believe that from the time of Paul until now that the doctrine through all of the hardships of the Orthodox Church has remained intact and unblemished.

Or do you believe that men through the ages have done their best to preserve the Churches doctrine and relied upon the guidance of the Spirit in matters of question?

Paul
---paul on 8/14/11


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Those two options don't really predict any type of consistent structure. I have seen nondenominational churches which were very structured and even overly controlling..guys walking around with head microphones on communicating re the action in the congregation. I've seen in some instances less structure in some denominational churches. Personally, I prefer a less formal setting and am usually just more comfortable in nondenominational churches.
---jody on 8/14/11


Your quote " have known a lot of Pastors, good men, who have differences in their beliefs" Tells me that what your members belife is what ever the pastor believes.
---francis on 8/14/11


Francis

I did not say these Pastors were all non-denominational for they were not.

I was a part of the AFMC association of fundamental ministers and churches which was comprised of all different denominations which came together for common fellowship.

It is more likely for a non-denom to believe the same all across the world simply because most have found error in most main stream denominations which unifies.

I have been in alot of non-denoms and they did all pretty much believe the same.


Paul
---paul on 8/14/11


\\Where do you think your orthdoxical father derived their original doctrine from?\\

From what has been handed down from the Apostles, received, lived, put into practice, and passed down to us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/11


francis, maybe it is this way in America, I don't know but here in Africa we have vast networks of interdenominal organisations, and we usually do communicate with eachother about members who go from one city to another. if a member comes in my church saying who and what he is, where he comes from usually we do contact the other pastor.
of course no system is infallible. only yesterday a woman arrested her husband who was marrying a second wife in church without her consent. the denomination was a Roman Catholic Church, but the man only lied to the priest so the priest was unaware.
---andy3996 on 8/14/11


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Your doctrines is different from pastor to pastor
---francis on 8/14/11

So you are saying again that because churches may very in doctrine that they are not churches.

I suppose you need to share what church you attend so I can become part of the true church.

And again I did not say those Pastor who disagree are all non-denom.

Facts are that all Pastors very in their doctrine even in the exact same denomination.

So please don't try to suggest that doctrinal differences disqualifies one from being a Church, that's absurd.

Paul
---paul on 8/14/11


This is how it was done in the bible,
---francis on 8/14/11

Which Bible?

I've never seen this before in the Bible.

Is it in second Galatians or the third chapter of Jude?

All jokes aside this is a good idea but not a Biblical one.

And why would this be limited to a denominational church.

Why is it so hard for people accept that Christ is bigger then their brand of doctrinal denomination?
---paul on 8/14/11


That means that you are putting YOURSELF as the center of your spiritual life.

Don't you see?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/11

I will ask you again, please answer with an answer and not a question.

What should a minister do to gather his sermon topics?

If we cant have an open line of communication between us and God then we can not minister effectively.

Where do you think your orthdoxical father derived their original doctrine from?

Paul
---paul on 8/14/11


Paul you prove my point. If one of your members move from one city to another, and change pastors, what they are taught is very different. Your quote " have known a lot of Pastors, good men, who have differences in their beliefs" Tells me that what your members belife is what ever the pastor believes. Once they change pastors, then they are likely taught a very different thing on the same doctrine. That is NOT a church that is confusion.

Notice what the BIble says:Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

Your doctrines is different from pastor to pastor
---francis on 8/14/11


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I have lived n several cities, and a few countries. In every case, My pastor can send a letter to my new pastors days before I arrive asking him to receive my family. My current pastor and I would know exactly which church I would be attending and who the pastor was even before I arrived. This is how it was done in the bible, and is done in the SDA church. The non-denominational church cannot send a letter asking a pastor to receive a mamber because they have no idea where that member would end up, or under whose teaching they would end up. This alone tells you that non-denominational is not of God because God is not the author of confusion
---francis on 8/14/11


Paul, you say the most confusing things,
---christan on 8/13/11

Christian

What I am saying is that I do not have a bureaucratic governing body lording over my ministry telling me what I can or can not preach.

What I do have is a network of Pastors as well as a small board of committee members to keep me accountable to the Word.

No one Person should have absolute control over anything.

If I am completely out of the book these individuals have the right to bring an accusation against me just as in 1Tim 5:19.

But my doctrine is not handed down to me from men but rather gathered from Gods Holy Word.

Those who come to Clearview have faith and confidence in me to lead.

Paul
---paul on 8/14/11


Cluny, i also see the danger of this in our church, yet as Paul says it also increases the sense of responsabilty in the hearts of honnest ministers, i myself am under an apostle who however is an independent minister did enter into covenant ministry with Bishops, whoa are part of Worldwide Pentecostal Networks , who also is in connection with other different worldwide organisations
---andy3996 on 8/14/11


\\I go on by what I feel the Spirit is prompting me to study.\\

paul, you go back to "I feel".

That means that you are putting YOURSELF as the center of your spiritual life.

Don't you see?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/11


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If you will recall the Four Spiritual Laws tract, feelings are NOTHING to go on.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 8/14/11

What system do you recommend a minister go on when determining sermon topics?

I go on by what I feel the Spirit is prompting me to study.

Paul
---paul on 8/14/11


\\I am saying I do as I FEEL the spirit is telling me to do. \\

If you will recall the Four Spiritual Laws tract, feelings are NOTHING to go on.

Glory to Jesus Christ.

BTW--when I referred to episcopal church structure, I was not referring to that body in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury called the Episcopal Church. Had I meant that, I would have originally capitalized "episcopal."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/11


Cluny

I know what you are saying and I agree.
I am saying I do as I FEEL the spirit is telling me to do.
This is where we must do as we feel Christ is prompting us to do and stand accountable for it one day.
FAITH

Paul
---paul on 8/13/11


Roman catholics, SDA, Methodist, do not have the problem of looking for a church. They can find their church in any country, Same doctrine different pastor.

??? no they have the problem that they loose fellowship if they move anywhere where there's not their type of church and believe me even catholics are not everywhere)
nondenominals do not have this limit because in looking for another church we rather look at the creed (most of our creeds are quite short, and based plus or minus upon the apostolic creed) and churchlife, if Christ is manifest in the hearts, then that we look at the churchlaws which are often mistakelny put next to the creed by denominationalists.
---andy3996 on 8/13/11


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Francis "Roman catholics, SDA, Methodist, do not have the problem of looking for a church. They can find their church in any country, Same doctrine different pastor". YET they have the problem that they loose fellowship moving anywhere where there's not their type of church. nondenominationals do not have this limit because in looking for another church we rather look at the creed (most of our creeds are quite short, and based plus-minus upon the apostolic creed) and churchlife, if Christ is manifest in the hearts. We bypass often churchlaws and rites, which are mistakenly set next to creeds by denominationalists.
When paul talks about our differences the nondenominationalist doesn't differ doctrinally, we differ in expression.
---andy3996 on 8/13/11


Although the non-denominational churches have a network of pastors, not every astor has the same belief, thus this is not a church because God's people are ONE, One faith One lord ONE baptism.
---francis on 8/13/11

What are you saying, that Churches that do not all believe the same are not churches.

You sure you want to make such a foolish proclimation?

I have known a lot of Pastors, good men, who have differences in their beliefs.

Just because the sign is the same in denominational churches does not mean all the Pastors believe the same way, most all of them do not.

It means that they all agree on the main fundamentals of their faith which leaves a lot open for debate.

Paul
---paul on 8/13/11


\\If I did not feel that my messages came from the Spirit of God....\\

Some people here feel the Spirit is telling them that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Some believe otherwise.

I could go on with other contradictory doctrines, but you get the idea.

Both sides say that the Holy Spirit is telling them these completely opposite things.

How do you determine the true and false, as faith in error leads to destruction?

\\Some things ...\\

All you're saying is that you believe what you believe is true because you believe it's true.

Not a very objective standard, is it?

And don't say, "the Bible is the standard", because all are saying that.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/13/11


Paul if a member moved from your congregation to live in Nigeria, how does he know which congregation to worship with?
---francis on 8/13/11

Francis

They would have to find a Church that teaches the Bible.

People get to caught up in following after their brand of religion, they would look for a Church that teaches Gods Word and they would be right at home and ready to pick up where they left off.

Paul
---paul on 8/13/11


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A good church studcture has people over tens, and people over hendreds and so on. This is the biblical structure of authority of pastors, deacon, bishops and so on.
Although the non-denominational churches have a network of pastors, not every astor has the same belief, thus this is not a church because God's people are ONE, One faith One lord ONE baptism.

Now here is the downfall of the non-denominational churches:
Paul if a member moved from your congregation to live in Nigeria, how does he know which congregation to worship with?
Roman catholics, SDA, Methodist, do not have the problem of looking for a church. They can find their church in any country, Same doctrine different pastor.
---francis on 8/13/11


And we know the Spirit approves, because you say so, right?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/13/11

Cluny
Allow me to ask you a question, what are you governed by on a dad to day basis.

The Spirit is the ultimate guide that teaches us all things and brings us into remembrance of what Jesus has said.

If I did not feel that my messages came from the Spirit of God I would not go on.

Some things must be taken by faith with appreciation to the fact that it don't make sense.
---paul on 8/13/11


Paul i presume Cluny refered to EPISCOPIC rather then Episcopal?
Our church acknowledges the apostolic structure, with apostles and prophets, bishops pastors and teachers, deacons and disciples.
---andy3996 on 8/13/11


I wanted to extend an invitation for all to check out our broadcast at 8:30 in the morning (Sunday).

The Lord gave me a very good message on God getting Gods glory and not men.

We cant give out addresses here but we can suggest searches, If you search Clearview Christian Worship Center you will find my site with the radio broadcast link to rout you to the broadcast.

I guess this is ok, if not the mods will correct me.
I understand anonymity but it is upon request of user and I don't care for people to know about me, I have nothing to hold secret.

So if you desire to do so check it out and I hope you enjoy the service.
---paul on 8/13/11


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Paul, you say the most confusing things,

Firstly, "For me I enjoy the freedom of not answering to any one but God." and then you follow it with, "We have a board with a majority rules deciding vote if we get to that place. I also have a network of Pastors by which we can utilize..."

Sound like your "board" and "network of Pastors" will be the absolute ruling over God's Word, which we are told already have been laid by the apostles and prophets, with Christ being the chief corner stone. And you wonder why you are "misunderstood" and "misinterpreted'?

You sound like a mini version of the Vatican and no better than a corporate organisation.
---christan on 8/13/11


Great answer Paul, but... since no man is infallible (not even the pope) how do you verify that what you teach is truely bible and Christian.
---andy3996 on 8/13/11

We have a board with a majority rules deciding vote if we get to that place.

I also have a network of Pastors by which we can utilize each others skills for various reasons, doctrine being one of them.

No group of men denom or non will agree on everything but on the fundamentals we are clear.

Denominational churches have bickered over doctrine for years, I just enjoy being able to teach without a man telling me what to teach.

We do have measures in place to correct if a Pastor is out of line and it is and has worked for years.

Paul
---paul on 8/13/11


The best church structure? I prefer one with lots of beautiful woodwork and stained glass. :)
---Bruce5656 on 8/13/11


In bible based churches there is acountable, and someone is responsible not just for his congregation but for the other churches as well.
---francis on 8/13/11

Francis, I don't think most understand the concept of a non-denom church.
It is no a maverick renegade that shakes its fist at structure and accountability with a do as you please attitude.
We will have sister churches of which I will be responsible for, its already in the planning phase now.


They can go from USA to brazil and find the EXACT SAME CHURCH,
---francis on 8/13/11

So if one is off in their doctrine they all are, that's a great concept.
---paul on 8/13/11


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he best church structure is episcopal, with bishops, presbyters, deacons, and minor orders.
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/13/11

Cluny

This is a great order if now they could stick with the Bible teachings and stop marrying gays they would do well.

Paul
---paul on 8/13/11


The best church stucture is the one given in the bible. There was a church in corinith and one is jerusalem, they all believed and practiced the same. It is not so with non-denominational churches. In bible based churches there is acountable, and someone is responsible not just for his congregation but for the other churches as well.

2 Corinthians 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

I would say (DOCTRINE ASIDE) that the RCC and the SDA church are two of the better ones. the doctrine does not change from pastor to pastor, city to city, or from country to country, and there is acountability.
They can go from USA to brazil and find the EXACT SAME CHURCH,
---francis on 8/13/11


The best church structure is episcopal, with bishops, presbyters, deacons, and minor orders.

Why? This is the structure that Christ ordained.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/13/11


Great answer Paul, but... since no man is infallible (not even the pope) how do you verify that what you teach is truely bible and Christian.
what are your safetynets against heresy? "we all know you will be tempted to say Holy Spirit" but hive me concrete ways, not vague ideologies.
Thanks and LOVE YOU IN CHRIST.
(from one non-denominational to another)
---andy3996 on 8/13/11


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Paul, I have no doubt that there are denominational as well as non that are Spirit filled or led churches, so both MAY be "live" churches. I cannot say one is better then another, for it is where and what the Spirit leads which really matters, is the church following the Word? Do I see Jesus as Lord there, God glorified...I've been to both "types" and believe God is in and works in some of both. He's not bound by denominational walls, and (thank God) many are saved through different personalized) means.
---Chria9396 on 8/13/11


\\To me that is the reason I am and will continue to be non-denominational. \\

In other words, you're not accountable to anybody.

\\The Word of God is my approved text and the Spirit approves the curriculum for the season.\\

And we know the Spirit approves, because you say so, right?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/13/11


I hear it both ways on here.
For me I enjoy the freedom of not answering to any one but God.

I made that statement here before and it was misunderstood or misrepresented.

What I mean by that is that I DO NOT hold fast to any specific doctrinal dogma that head churches or main offices require their network to adhere to.

I don't work from approved curriculum.

Or ask permission from any board if something is acceptable doctrine or not.

To me that is the reason I am and will continue to be non-denominational.

The Word of God is my approved text and the Spirit approves the curriculum for the season.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 8/12/11


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