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What Is A Dragon's Tail

In Revelation 12:3-4, what does the reference to the dragon's "TAIL" imply? Were the stars (angels) involuntarily drawn (swept) away?

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 ---Leon on 8/16/11
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Mark and Legends, I want to thank you both.
May God bless and keep you safe.
---TheSeg on 1/31/12


Legends, thank you for your answers. They are a lot of things we really don't know for sure, but when we put things together from the whole of Scripture and what was mentioned in the Old Testament much of the picture is revealed to us. I'm not saying someone is right or wrong on any symbolisms. What I do know is that they are not merely symbols. If the images given are symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain. You did say, the fallen angels legendary teaching, again you say something is not truth but a legend, when you don't really know if you are right.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


If Revelation is god's word, why didn't he speak more clearly so you all would understand?

How do you know which parts to believe as literal and which to believe as metaphor?
---atheist on 1/31/12


Mark,
Forgive any blind hypocrisy on my part.
Concerning the stars in Rev12. I offer no symbolic meaning that's impressed me enough to say, This is what I truly believe 1/3 stars are symbolic of.
My point was, there were 12 stars mentioned earlier in the chapter. Those 12 stars(Whatever they are symbolic of) were on the Woman's head who was seen in heaven clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet.
What I don't do is assume that the stars mentioned later in the chapter are not those same 12 stars in the context. Neither do I assume 1/3 stars equals 4 stars even though, contextually this has more merit than billions. Which is a key part of the fallen angel legendary teaching.
Not upset! Just pointing out inconsistencies.
---Legends on 1/31/12


Mark i cannot make it much clearer.
I am asking what if these are God's angels defeated defending the good???
Why is the assumption made that these angels are the same ones that fight with the devil??
I would agree if God cast them down but he didn't or Revelation would of said.
The were drawn, swept aside, and cast down, by the devil.
Does not say they joined him. To assume so is just assumption.
They could of been thrown aside because they stood between the dragon and the woman. Again assumption.
What if it is symbolic of the first martyrs and not angels.
They loved not their lives until death. Assumption.
---chris on 1/31/12




Legends, I really don't get what your upset about. You know the words in Revelation are symbolic. You know people here give their intepretation of what they think is symbolic, and you disagree and give us your interpretion of what is rediculous but don't give us your answers why their's are, and yours are not. You are doing the same as everyone else who is answering. Most people who don't know what the symbolic passages mean look for help from well known theologians. But somehow you are correct and they are not. It's symbolic not literal passages. We know they cannot be stars, for stars are bigger then earth. So give us all a break. Be nice, tell us what the symbolic passages really mean.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


Here's what you're inferringly ADDING to Jesus' words.

"and Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
And if Satan WHO WAS ONCE LUCIFER, A FALLEN ANGEL, cast out Satan, THE AFOREMENTIONED FALLEN ANGEL, he is divided against himself, how shall then his kingdom stand?
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, WHO ARE FORMER ANGELS, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges."

Sad that most people can't recognize the ADDITION.
Outstanding example of adding to scripture because of TRADITION... making the word of God have no effect!
---Legends on 1/30/12


And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself, how shall then his kingdom stand?
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
---TheSeg on 1/30/12


Judge this blog's accuracy on context not interpretation. PLEASE!
-WOMAN appeared in HEAVEN
(NEVER says this heaven was a vision of the spiritual heaven. BUT offers hints of using the hosts of the natural heaven i.e. sun/moon/12 "STARS" as a way of conveying a spiritual truth.)
1st BIG unaddressed issue: WOMAN was in the SAME heaven that the STARS were in(which are being ASSUMED to be angels).
POINT: There was no WOMAN/Israel/Mary in HEAVEN when angels were ALLEGEDLY being dragged out.
Also: contextually the only STARS mentioned were the 12 used as a CROWN on the woman's head.
Could it be that 1/3 of 12 STARS = "4" STARS
... NOT however many billion?
Interpretation doesn't trump context!
---Legends on 1/30/12


Chris, you are not making any sense. If they were cast down, it couldn't be for good reason. If they were defeated angels, why were they fighting with the good angels? You have good, and you have evil. There is no good good. Why would good fight good? The word "Cast" down is "Ballo" The verb in all applications retains the idea of impulse. To cast, throw, thrust, to put, to strike. To be cast down.
---Mark_V. on 1/30/12




I am just interested where it actually says that the third of stars swept from heaven were angels fallen to evil ways.
We assume they were angels, but why assume they are evil?
Because they were cast down?
Do we not assume too much?
Does cast down not mean defeated?
Rather than fallen to evil?
The dragon swept a third of the stars.
If God had cast them out then surely Revelation would say God cast a third of the host from heaven?
We are told his followers will fight until the very death.
So what if these angels are not fallen but defeated?
If they were cast out from God then yes I agree they were fallen from grace.
It doesn't say that anywhere
---chris on 1/30/12


Gordon, you had a lot to say before to me yet never answered my question. If you want someone to believe what you say and you believe it is true, why not provide us with what books God told you were not legit and which ones not in the Bible are? You have communication with God and so do I, and so does all genuine Christians. So did God lie to us who believe that the Bible as it is, is inspired by God or was He lying to us? you said all you had to do was ask Him so please, be a good brother and help us.
---Mark_V. on 1/28/12


Mark V., There is also a Book of JASHER, which was not included in the Canonical Scriptures. I forgot to mention that one.
---Gordon on 1/27/12


Chris, Good points you've made. Could it be, that it was BECAUSE of Satan's strong influence upon the one-third of the angels to rebel against GOD, is, then, what caused GOD to banish these evil ones from Heaven? And, that, although it was GOD who cast them out, it was really the influence of Satan that got them kicked out, not JUST so much that GOD kicked them out. It's like when some Christians say that "GOD doesn't cast anyone into Hell, it's the people that refuse Salvation that send themselves there! Even though at the End of the Day, it IS GOD that physically casts them into Eternal Damnation, but it was REALLY by the person's own choice that they end up there. So it is with the Dragon and the stars.
---Gordon on 1/27/12


Gordon, first, Enoch is not in our Bible. Maybe yours but not the Holy Bible. Second, you said:

" Not ALL of the "Extra-curricular" Books of the Bible are legitimate. But, the Book of ENOCH is one that is! We have to allow ourselves to be open to GOD's TRUTH to discern which ones are of GOD. HE will let anyone know who WANTS to know"

You said "anyone who want to know, God will tell him" So God told you which one's are Truth and which one's are not? I also asked Him and He told me His Truth has been around for thousands of years and they are written down in what we call the Bible. Must be that God is deceiving Christian left and right. So which one's did He tell you were not Truth?
---Mark_V. on 1/27/12


its interesting to note that the dragon cast the stars to earth not God. That is clearly stated.
it also is interesting to note in the first few verses the dragon is in heaven not on earth.
It is not until after the battle with Micheal that the dragon is cast down to earth.
So if the third of angels are cast down to earth. The dragon is in heaven all this time.
How can the angels cast down be the same ones as with the Dragon?
---chris on 1/27/12


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Micha, Then what ARE the "stars" in REVELATION 12?! Of course the "stars" are the rebellious angels that followed Satan. This is not that mysterious or complicated. And, the fallen angels followed Satan WILLINGLY. Because GOD made the angels, as well as mankind, all with free-will.
---Gordon on 1/26/12


The word here translated 'drew' from the Greek is 'syro' or 'syrei' in its form.
It is involuntary also translated 'dragged'.
whether it is talking about the fallen angels or not, it is involuntary.
Check out the other uses of this word in scripture, none are voluntary.
Jhn 21:8, Acts 8:3, 14:19, 17:6.
It is still opinion to say the 'stars' were/are angels.
---micha9344 on 1/26/12


Mark V., You did not read my comment very well. I said nothing to the effect that "Satan and his fallen angels LEFT HEAVEN VOLUNTARILY". Would you go back and re-read, thoroughly, my last comment? I said that the fallen angels WERE NOT TAKEN INVOLUNTARILY....Meaning, that, the fallen angels were not taken involuntarily BY SATAN, rather, they went along with Satan in his Rebellion VOLUNTARILY and WILLINGLY (by Satan via his Dragon's tail). I said nothing about whether they left Heaven on their own accord or if they were kicked out by GOD Himself. Satan and the fallen angels were, of course, kicked out of Heaven by the GOD Who rules and is Enthroned in Heaven. Please, re-read my commentif you don't believe what I'm saying.
---Gordon on 1/26/12


Mark V., The Book of ENOCH is a legitimate Book. GOD is revealing this through some of HIS people and Prophets today. Religious MEN canonized the Books of the Holy Bible, not GOD. They also changed the Name of the Son of GOD from "YAHUSHUA" to "JESUS". The name "Jesus" is not even Hebrew, so, it could not have been His real Name! So, what religious men have done GOD has ALLOWED, but, not ordained Himself! HE allows it for HIS Purpose that, for now, we cannot understand. Not ALL of the "Extra-curricular" Books of the Bible are legitimate. But, the Book of ENOCH is one that is! We have to allow ourselves to be open to GOD's TRUTH to discern which ones are of GOD. HE will let anyone know who WANTS to know!
---Gordon on 1/26/12


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Gordon, I believe you got it backwards. They didn't leave voluntarily, they were cast out by God. They sinned voluntarily but did not leave heaven volutarily.
"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast out to earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Rev. 12:9).
---Mark_V. on 1/25/12


There is no way that the fallen angels (one-third of the stars) were taken involuntary. Else they could not be justifiably be held in Condemnation before GOD. I mean, right? The fallen angels willingly followed Satan in Rebellion against GOD. They more than likely believed satan in thinking that he would, somehow, eventually win against GOD. Boy, were they ever bamboozled.
---Gordon on 1/25/12


Chris, Let's not mention the Book of Enoch. Since it is not in Scripture. There was many books written but did not pass as canon.
Second, Revelation is the only book in the Bible that mention's it is the revelation of Jesus Christ, and that blessings come to those who read it or hear it's prophecy and keep those things mentioned. They concern things that must shortly come to pass, for the time is near. It has been over 2,000 years since this revelation was given "time is near" refers to literally "epochs, eras, or season's. It will take long, that people will question whether He will ever come (Matt. 24:36-39: 2 Peter 3:3,4). Time looks long to us, but not to God. All His children (the elect)need to come to faith.
---Mark_V. on 1/25/12


Mark let's move on. Sure we can discuss things verse by verse.
Revelations an emotive book, some believe it has been and others that it is to come.
Two of the major verses that give insight to this are the first and last verse of Revelation.
I know Enoch is not canon but just bare with me for a second.
Enoch writes prophecy and states it is to a distant generation. Which I believe is in reference to Noah.
The verses in Revelation intimate that the events there are quickly upon us.
So first one needs to define if Revelation is a book at least partially fulfilled or yet to pass. Without which discussing the dragon's tail could mean different things.
So we could discuss the first and last verse of Revelation.
---chris on 1/24/12


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Chris, I did read the context of what you wrote in the other blog and you said I twisted what you said. I only repeated what you said. Lets set the rules.
If we speak of one passage lets stay with that passage and read the context to why is was said. (Rev. 12:3.4) Pre-trib believers believe this happens during the time of the tribulation. Others who are not Pre-tribe believe different. The "woman" is suppose to be symbolic to "Israel." The dragon is symbolic of the work of satan through "anti-Semitism" Everything symbolic of someone or someplace. Do you want to try something to that effect? If not that is ok with me.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/12


Rev 12
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

I believe here the stars are angels I do not necessarily believe though that they are fallen angels. In the sense of going over to the devil.
I tend to think they are scattered and fall to earth.
Maybe some perish.

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels,

I understand that many see these angels with the dragon as being the ones cast down. Yet they could easily be the dragon's own forces of evil.

I do not think heaven means the sanctuary of the same name but the skies.
---chris on 1/22/12


Mark just my thoughts.
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Here I see the stars as being as the twelve tribes of Israel.
The woman being the Jewish church which brought forth the old testament. The child is the birth of the Christian church from the old faith. The ascendency of the child to sit on the throne with God, is the sacrifice of Christ and his ascension. Hence he will rule with a rod of iron. Rev12 4,5,
The devil waiting to devour the child is the temptations of 40 days and 40 nights. Where the devil would of stopped the birth of the Christian church if successful in tempting Christ.
---chris on 1/22/12


Chris/Legends, I admit there's many interpretations of Revelation. The reason is because much of it is symbolic. And because many words in Scripture have different meanings depending where you find them and the context in each passage.
But Chris, you speculate they are not angels fighting in heaven, and if they are not human beings and we know they are not, what are they? If you want to discuss one passage at a time, it is more simple because the words have many meanings, but one meaning on each passage. I am more then willing to go that way. Because angels are not always angels, and when speaking of stars it depends on the passage. Take a verse at a time and we can read the whole context of that verse. Peace I leave you both.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/12


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Legend thank you for your reply.
I was just interested basically on your view of stars is all.
Revelation is complex and written in time of John's imprisonment. In a time of great persecution of Jew and Christian. I often feel it was written for the Christians of his time to understand. Is it to come or has it be been, is much discussed.
If it is to come then I think the stars are angels in this case. I am just not sure they are cast down in the sense many see.
i.e. fallen from grace.
Cast down seems to either mean destroyed or bound by.
When Micheal fights the dragon and all his angels, to me it says this is the dragon and everything he has.
Not necessarily the angels mentioned above.
Just a thought.
---chris on 1/22/12


Mark,
Here are my stances without your hacking up what I've said. If you disagree, disagree with a correct version of my stance.
Yes: No fallen angels.
No: Interpreters were not FORCED to write the word angels in places(like Revelation chapters 2-3) when they SHOULD HAVE used the word messengers.
No: You have no scripture showing where God called ANY angel Lucifer or satan.
Yes: The apostles and Prophets' writings about satan matches the predominant Jewish view.
No: Bible is not FULL of errors. The apostles/prophets wrote flawlessly.
Yes: Whatever translation of the Bible you are reading has A F-E-W errors in translation.
Yes: Enoch tends to agree with the false legend of fallen angels.
No: Enoch is not a canon.
---Legends on 1/21/12


Chris,
My stance to your views on Rev.12 was posted on the Why is satan called lucifer blog. I see that you, Mark and I have filled it to full.
BTW, God bless you both!

I don't believe there to be in merit to thinking that the stars in that chapter are to be interpreted to be angels. Just as the angels(stars according to 1:20) in chapters 2 and 3 were clearly not angels but HUMAN MESSENGERS to the seven churches. Jude 1:13 calls false teachers wandering STARS. The LORD also told Abrahan that his HUMAN descendants would be like the STARS in heaven... the natural heaven filled with natural stars.
Mark, Love you but you do twist words in responses... sometimes. Not always! LOL
---Legends on 1/21/12


Mark,
Clarifying about FORCED writings. Examples:

"0ne-third of the stars(angels) were cast out."
This particular case, the word angel is ADDED to the interpretation of the passage outside the apostle's writing. The reasons given for doing this don't stand up to interpretive rules. I question the addition.

"How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer(the devil)"
Again, religious tradition trumps Isaiah's writing so much that people actually argue against my saying that this is not about some fallen angel formerly named lucifer.
Words within PARENTHESES are always subject to scrutiny. Similarly, translations from original Greek/Hebrew words are subject to scrutiny. The apostles/prophets words are not.
---Legends on 1/21/12


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Mark
maybe it is me who doesn't clarify myself well enough. I have not said they are not angels. I was asking what if they are not fallen angels, but angels who Satan has defeated, there is a difference?
Also these are angels the devil cast down not God. In reptillian type creatures the tail is often a method of attack, symbolic or otherwise.
Yes I know a couple of verses later it is talking about the dragon and his angels. I am sure he has a big army of dark angels and demons already.
Are we right to assume these are the same angels that were cast down?
Yet again you twist my words. I am not the only one you have done it to
---chris on 1/21/12


MARK
Where in there do I say the stars are not angels.
'What if they are not'
Refers to fallen.
If the angels are stars and a third fell. It is often assumed they become fallen angels.
What if they are not but the casualties of the war in heaven.?
We see angels as immortal but are they when pitched against their opposites dark angels and demons. Maybe there is a cost to both sides not just one?

chapter Rev12
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Does that not apply to all who defend God.?

I was asking Legends his view as he does not believe in the fallen angels.
---chris on 1/21/12


Chris, you say,
"What if they are not but the casualties of the war in heaven.?"
Lets say you are correct, who are this casualties of war? What are they? We know they are not human beings and you say not angels, so what are they? We know that most of Revelation is symbolic. At least I do. We know that some of the symbols represent something or another. That a literal star is not meant is evident from the part that to him was given a key, that is, the authority (Matt. 16:19: Rev. 1:18), to open the bottomless pit. An intelligent being must be intended. It has been observed that a star is used as a symbol of the angel, in this case fallen,(v. 1:20). As early as the days of Job, there is similar use of the word (Job 38:7).
---Mark_V. on 1/21/12


Legend
Rev 9 v1
Rev 12, v3,4,8,9,11
If the angels are stars and a third fell. It is often assumed they become fallen angels.
What if they are not but the casualties of the war in heaven.?
We see angels as immortal but are they when pitched against their opposites dark angels and demons. Maybe there is a cost to both sides not just one?
Maybe they are just rendered unable to defend themselves and cast to earth?
The dragon appears in heaven, a third of the angels in heaven are cast down. Micheal wages war in heaven on the dragon and his angels.
Why do we assume these were the same angels that fell from heaven?
I am sure Satan has an army without them.
---chris on 1/19/12


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//If you know you know something, please share. But, if you know you don't know please hold your comments to asking questions.// Leon

with all due respect, that is like telling my boy, "if you are going to get a hit, get in the batter's box. if you are not sure, then do not even try."

how can one iron be sharpened if the other is instructed not to even draw his sword as it is?

That's how God gives believers Bible insights as the Holy Spirit leads.
---aka on 1/19/12


Legends, I just answered you on another blog. You suggest there is no fallen angels, no fallen satan, it was all made up, made up because people were forced to write 'angel' and we should not believe Scripture because it is full of errors, but then tell Chris that Enoch is not canon material, but you don't believe what is canon already because writers of Scripture were forced to put down things that are not true. Don't you know how rediculous that sounds? Look, I agree with you that Enoch is not canon material, it has many contraditions to the rest of the Word of God. But come on, "No fallen angels, no fallen satan" You go too far Legends.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/12


Bloggers, teachers, preachers, authors etc. are FORCED to put the word "angels" in parentheses after the word stars in Revelation.
Why? Because the Bible does not. Therefore whether you know you are doing it or whether you are doing it out of religious traditional habit, YOU are doing something that most bloggers teach others NOT to do.
As far as Enoch is a reliable means to marry the term stars with angels, I can only say this: Enoch isn't in the Canons... for good reason! And you may want to start thinking that this is one of those reasons.
The question is flawed! Angels don't get drawn away voluntarily or involuntarily. PEOPLE DO!
---Legends on 1/18/12


LXXXVIII. The Punishment of the Fallen Angels by the Archangels.
88
And I saw one of those four who had come forth first, and he seized that first star which had fallen from the heaven, and bound it hand and foot and cast it into an abyss: now that abyss was narrow and deep, and horrible and dark.
This comes from Enoch and though many do not recognise Enoch because he is not in canon. Most of the people up until canon read those gospels.There are two or three connections with stars and angels, what you interpret is up to you. There seems little doubt that John read Enoch.
---chris on 1/5/12


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"...not everyone is at the same level as another. No use putting anyone down unless they argue as heretics do. There is many innocent believers trying to put their own understanding to participate with other brothers and sisters..."

True & I appreciate that Mark. I'd like to encourage all bloggers, at all levels of understanding, to do the following. If you know you know something, please share. But, if you know you don't know please hold your comments to asking questions.

You use the word "speculating" a lot & have often said that's what I do. :) Speculating to me is considering (meditating) on what Scripture says. That's how God gives believers Bible insights as the Holy Spirit leads.
---Leon on 1/3/12


Leon, please don't get me wrong here with my answers. I love to discuss passages with anyone. It keeps me sharp and allows me to read the context of passages given. But a person can make a lot of errors by speculating things not written in the Word. There is so many things to go through when interpreting. A person can make a mistake and we must be allowed to make them since we are human, and not everyone is at the same level as another. No use putting anyone down unless they argue as heretics do. There is many innocent believers trying to put their own understanding to participate with other brothers and sisters. That was all.
---Mark_V. on 12/31/11


Leon, you did not offend me. The fact is that I never answered your question. I answered Legends, for he had a different definition for angels and stars in Scripture. If you had asked me about your question, I would have told you what Rev. 12:3,4) was talking about. That was easy. I just read what others wrote and commented on what Legends wrote. I'm sorry you left and when you got back everyone made a mess of your question.
---Mark_V. on 12/28/11


"AGAIN, answers to my original questions are too easy if you take the open book (Bible) test."

Wow ~ You seem to be stuck there Mark! Sorry I offended you. :) The absolute best answers are Bible answers. That's my whole point.

BLOG QUESTION BIBLE ANSWERS:
1.) Rev. 12:4 says the dragon's tail "drew" away (dragged down) the stars (angels). They "willingly" followed & were cast to earth, in defeat, with him.
2.) Rev. 12:7-10 gives the contextual match up. The Bible speaks for itself! The verses explain "who" the stars are & shows they chose to follow (tail) the dragon/Satan/Devil/Serpent in rebellion against God.
---Leon on 12/27/11


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Leon, I believe anyone here has the right to answer anyone. Whether they like it or not cannot be known by anyone of us. You post questions and give evidence you don't like anyone's answers. Petty those who do not understand and all they have to do is open the Bible as you said,
"AGAIN, answers to my original questions are too easy if you take the open book (Bible) test." There is many on line who do understand and are ready to answer. You just don't like their answers. You can answer any of mine. I will give you an answer if I can. If not, then I will tell you I don't understand and need your help.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/11


Mark: You be Mark & I'll be Leon. Since you've determined to judge me & my motives, let's look at "Mark". If a line of questioning doesn't fit into your neat little box, the way you think it should, then it is out of order/invalid. I find your attitude & views to be very narrow & sanctimonious. But, I do recognize you are who you are & it's not my place to try & change you.

Once before I suggested to you that if my blog questions weren't to your liking you could graciously bow out. Obviously, you misunderstand my intent & questions, & mistake my chastening for ridicule. Blogs that aren't to my liking I don't respond to. Why don't you do the same? :)
---Leon on 12/24/11


Leon, I agree with Micha, and also with AKA. You post questions not to find out something or debate on something, but to see what others say, and then judge them. You knew what the reference was already. When someone answers you tell them:
"AGAIN, answers to my original questions are too easy if you take the open book (Bible) test:"

Why ask if they are too easy? To redicule what they say? Because that is what you did. Why not ask a hard question? Maybe you can learn something yourself.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/11


"Yes, the question posted does imply alot. Wouldn't it have been better to let the Word speak for itself without adding personal speculation or unsupported interpretation?
---micha9344 on 12/15/11"


HUH?!!!

AGAIN, answers to my original questions are too easy if you take the open book (Bible) test:
1.) Rev. 12:4 says the dragon's tail "drew" away (dragged down) the stars (angels). They "willingly" followed & were cast to earth, in defeat, with him.
2.) Rev. 12:7-10 gives the contextual match up. The Bible speaks for itself! The verses explain "who" the stars are & shows they chose to follow (tail) the dragon/Satan/Devil/Serpent in rebellion against God.
---Leon on 12/22/11


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Yes, the question posted does imply alot.
Wouldn't it have been better to let the Word speak for itself without adding personal speculation or unsupported interpretation?
---micha9344 on 12/15/11


Anno, Annis, Tannis,

Yo Ho Anno Moses.

The number is figurative and non exact as the infinite decimal.

1 planet divided by or ratio of the 3rd planet.

Ephraim was not without Scepter Hills.

Jonah sign concerning Babylon called Ninevah, where One sign is given and the nation believes and becomes among the Prophecy for Empire(s) during the days of Jeremiah and Daniel the Governor.
---johannesque_estonia on 12/14/11


"From now on I, suggest that no one responds to any of LEON'S post. We will only make a mess of it. Bless his return to save us from ourselves."

Those are great swelling words AlsoKnownAs. Never compare me to the Almighty. If you must, compare me to the alternative! Thank you! :)
---Leon on 12/12/11


"Wow! I go away & when I return, look at the mess you guys have made of my blog! " Leon

from now on, i suggest that no one responds to any of LEON'S post. We will only make a mess of it. Bless his return to save us from ourselves.

He has the answers, and apparently (like his other blogs), men/women are not allowed to answer according to their understanding...faith to faith.

fortunately, we have another Savior that considers our cry to Him and forgives us for our lack of understanding.

Bless His return to save us from ourselves.
---aka on 12/11/11


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Legends, hope your Thanksgiving went well. Mine was great, missed one of my sons. Blessed is the Lord thy God.
Concerning the answers, many are speculations. The Psa. passage you gave does not show anything to the topic. Psa 74 was a plea for relief from oppressors, and might have been written or sung by a later Asaph choir (Psa. 50:73). The word dragon is "Tannin" and has many meanings depending where you find it. It could be a huge fish (Gen. 1:21: Job 7:12: Is. 51:34) a marine or land monster, a dragon (Jer. 51:34) a sea serpent, a water animal, a whale, and also a snake (Ex. 7:9) and so many more.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/11


Wow! I go away & when I return, look at the mess you guys have made of my blog! You've imagined Scripture every which way but the right way. Incredible!

Answers to my original questions are too easy if you take the open book (Bible) test:
1.) Rev. 12:4 says the dragon's tail "drew" away (dragged down) the stars (angels). That is to say they "willingly" followed & were cast to earth, in defeat, with him. Huh?
2.) Okay, read Rev. 12:7-10 for the contextual match up. The Bible speaks for itself! The verses explain "who" the stars are & shows they chose to follow (tail) the dragon/Satan/Devil/Serpent in rebellion against God.

Guys, please connect the dots! :) (Rev. 12:3-4 & 7-10)
---Leon on 12/10/11


literally, 1/3 = .3333333...

2/3 = .66666666666...

2/3 of the Judeans {among hills of Judah and in the diaspora Ephraim among nations, peoples, and languages} is written in Isaiah.

666 talents of Solomon... they will shine like the stars whom impart wisdoms...
---johannesque_estonia on 12/6/11


literally, 1/3 = .3333333...

2/3 = .66666666666...

2/3 of the Judeans {among hills of Judah and in the diaspora Ephraim among nations, peoples, and languages} is written in Isaiah.

666 talents of Solomon... they will shine like the stars whom impart wisdoms...
---johannesque_estonia on 12/6/11


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Seeing it can only be "speculation" about whether "1/3 stars" represent:
a)humans
b)1/3 heaven's angels
c)fill in the blank...
... Can we not see that it's unbelievably presumptive to ask:
"Were the stars (angels) involuntarily drawn away?"
The question is moot!

Scriptural evidence is NOT there(outside speculation) that the 1/3 stars represent "1/3 Angels".
There are biblical proofs that STARS MAY mean humans.
-OT Gen13/ STARS and sand are Abraham's descendants.
-NT Jude13/ HUMAN teachers compared to "wandering STARS"
-NT Revelation1:20/ Stars in Jesus' HAND are "messengers" grk=aggelos, mistranslated outside of context as angels.
---Legends on 11/24/11


Chria, Not all translations agree with the term "angels" being in this particular passage.(See Young's translation Below)
Context points toward the "overseers" (God's human messengers) who were the heads of the seven churches. I am of the belief the stars were the pastors not angels. Some(not me) even believe that John had seven different messengers assigned to the task of delivering his revealed letters to the churches.
BUT, the context definitely does not support the idea of "angels" being the stars to the churches.
"the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies" Rev1:20 Young's
---Legends on 11/24/11


Blessings Mark,
The exodus, dragons and leviathon were were written about in the Psalms and referred to Pharaoh and his army who were dashed in the Red Sea.
"Thou didst DIVIDE THE SEA by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers."Psalm74:13-15

Good point about critiquing speculation about the 2/3 stars being angels or covenant people. My speculation based on OT history remains the latter.
Happy Thanksgiving!
---Legends on 11/24/11


What if the stars falling and rising always see The Face of GOD and were the Kingdom coming among us as The Light of peoples?

The Transfiguration shows us that The next Temple is Light, the figs desired by Jesus when He returned from The Temple. 144,000 for 1,000 years and I want to give these the same.
---johannesque_estonia on 11/13/11


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"Joseph: No? Oh! So, please explain if you can."--Leon on 10/8/11
I apologize for my delayed response, I just noticed the question.
Leon "the angels kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation,.." Jud 1:6. That sounds voluntary to me. They may have been deceived, but they were not coerced. And because of that the Father "did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment." 2Pe 2:4 Also note that the angels are called "his angels" which suggest a voluntary following. Rev. 12:9
---joseph on 10/21/11


Legends, hello again. You said that John never said that stars were angels. Those exact words are not found. But you said that in those passage stars are the covenant people, and that dragons are croc's, Pharaoh is a dragon, and those are all speculations also. What you are doing is the same thing those others are doing, looking for what those symbols mean. They give stars as angels and you give covenant people as the stars. Just two different views. No different then yours. I believe they are angels myself. I'm speculating.
---Mark_V. on 10/19/11


Legends, "But NEVER does John state that stars mean angels"
Rev 1:19-20 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
Interesting idea about the tale Leon, which swept them away.
I agree they (stats/angels)were willing
---Chria9396 on 10/16/11


"what does the reference to the dragon's "TAIL" imply ? A following.
"Were the stars (angels) involuntarily drawn (swept) away?" No.
---joseph on 8/20/11


Joseph: No? Oh! So, please explain if you can.
---Leon on 10/8/11


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The Dragon sent someone to argue concerning the Body of Mo (many waters or seas) ses is written.
---johannes_estonesque on 8/29/11


"what does the reference to the dragon's "TAIL" imply ? A following.
"Were the stars (angels) involuntarily drawn (swept) away?" No.
---joseph on 8/20/11


Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it [the he goat] waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

(he goat - turn a 5 pointed star upside down. elongate the point turned down. what does it look like? notice that everyone wants to be a star these days. notice how the stars are starting to turn upside down on emblems and logos and one point is getting longer.)
---aka on 8/18/11


Bothersome to see John write about 2/3 of the stars being drawn away by the dragon's tail THEN seeing unfounded teachings about the stars. Teachings not backed by God's writers.
YES, the dragon is The Adversary. John says so.
But NEVER does John state that stars mean angels. Neither do any apostles/prophets.
There is more Biblical foundation backing the thought that Stars are God's covenant people(lights shining in a vast dark place). "(Abraham)Count the STARS, so shall Thy seed be."

Also, Dragons are often biblically referring to crocodiles. Specifically NILE crocs. In Psalms, Pharoah was often THE DRAGON casting down ISRAEL, GOD'S COVENANT STARS. Study PSALMS and crocs to know more info about The Dragons' Tail.
---Legends on 8/18/11


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No, no, no moderator! :D The question isn't "What is a Dragon's Tail". Specifically, the question is what is THE dragon's TAIL mentioned in Rev. 12:3-4.

Yes Reba, the 1/3 angels most certainly did go willingly. They weren't forced! Instead, they were deceived & chose to follow (tail) the lying dragon (satan, the serpent). The rebellion, against God, led to their ultimate defeat, disgrace & banishment from God's heaven.

Yes, false doctrine is a twisted (serpentine), blasphemous, satanic "TALE" (a lie/subtle deception) originated (fathered) & used by the forked-tongued devil/serpent/pride-piping DRAGON in a futile attempt to overthrow God.
---Leon on 8/18/11


tribal members generally follow tribal leaders....
---kevin5443 on 8/17/11


Titus 1:2 is also such a mind-blower unless one reads vers 1 & 3
a few interesting things are found in Rev 12 many denominations always disputed about them. evryone of course claiming to have the truth.
who is the virgin, who is the child who is dragon and who are the stars.
who is the dessert, what does the 1260 day imply. sometimes its just better to read things for what they are. since we're only humans
---andy3996 on 8/17/11


i will never understand, why these two verses from the way past are in the middle of text of a future event. why isn't it a future event?

anyway. you can make an argument about being involuntary, but these stars decide where to stand.
---aka on 8/16/11


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I believe the dragon is satan(Lucifer at that time) & a third part of the stars is the angels that FOLLOWED him. I believe they went willingly. IF he was able to force them he'd probably taken them all. TAIL:or TAILED, TO FOLLOW-they followed him. He drew the followers with him. Also, TAIL-the end-false doctrine. It could imply lots or all these things but I truly believe the angels went willingly. DRAW:move or cause to move, attract or provoke. They were attracted to his false doctrine & so followed him.
---Reba on 8/16/11


The dragon is a staggering 1/3 rd. of the populationof (stars) in heaven that defected .The tail represents the momentum of the dragon sweeping across the universe .The revolt was so big that John named the revolt a great dragon.
Involuntary???-no-Anyone and Everyone in heaven or on earth can call it "quits" when they want to.The proof is that spirits and angels do and did there and here.
---earl on 8/16/11


John Wesley

Of the stars of heaven-The Christians and their teachers, who before sat in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

And casteth them to the earth-Utterly deprives them of all those heavenly blessings. This is properly a part of the description of the dragon, who was not yet himself on earth, but in heaven: consequently, this casting them down was between the beginning of the seventh trumpet and the beginning of the third woe, or between the year 847 and the year 947, at which time pestilent doctrines, particularly that of the Manichees in the east, drew abundance of people from the truth.
---paul on 8/16/11


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