ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Ceremonial Spiritual Christian

I see two sides of Christianity, ceremonial and spiritual, which do you think you are and why?

Join Our Christian Penpals and Take The Christian Living Quiz
 ---paul on 8/22/11
     Helpful Blog Vote (4)

Post a New Blog



Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, muslims unitarians believe as you, that He was a created son. You are welcome to believe and give amens to those who oppose the eternal Son of God.
---Mark_V. on 9/2/11
OR Calvinists who believe the Son was GENERATED from the beginning begotten in eternity past.

Was Jesus then Begotten TWICE? This is what you all believe, that the son's initial eternal existance prior to His incarnation was dependent upon the Father. This totally denies the truth of Isaiah 43:10-11.He could not then be teh BEGINNING and END First and Last Alpha and Omega. Two Alpha's??? That would be GREEK suicide!
---kathr4453 on 9/3/11


Scott, you said:
Before you go relegating people to the "darkness and the shadow of death" have you ever honestly considered why (from a scriptural perspective) many disagree with you and other Trinitarians on this point?"
I know they do. They are not Christians for all Christians believe in One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Another reason they disagree with me because they are from cultic religion. Heretics to the faith.
Jesus Christ in His humanity was always submissive to the Father, had to be, the reason He was sinless in His humanity, and died a perfect death. Something not you or me could ever accomplish. Like I said, you don't have to believe it.
---Mark_V. on 9/3/11


"Jesus in His humanity was submissive to the Father."
Mark_V (1)

Before you go relegating people to the "darkness and the shadow of death" have you ever honestly considered why (from a scriptural perspective) many disagree with you and other Trinitarians on this point?

I've often asked you (with no response) 'If Jesus was only submissive to the Father because of, or during, his "humanity", how do you fit verses like 1 Corinthians 15:28 into your Christological view?:

"When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." ASV

Continued
---scott on 9/2/11


"Jesus in His humanity was submissive to the Father."
Mark_V (2)

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians after Christ's death and resurrection and he was obviously talking about a future event that had not yet happened.

How do you explain this?

Additionally, after Christ's resurrection Paul writes:

"For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Cor 8:6 NASB

There are valid, scriptural, reasons that sincere Bible students question the conclusions that you and others pontificate about while ignoring clear scriptural evidence that contradicts you.
---scott on 9/2/11


James L, you are welcome to join her group. I cannot account for what you believe. I don't make decisions for anyone. I only tell them how it is.
Jesus in His humanity was always submissive to the Father. That did not mean He was not God the Son in His nature. Now you don't have to believe this, because you don't have to. The Eternal Sonship of Christ is, as it were, the central sum of the New Testament, to remove which is to blot out all light, and to cast the church into darkness and the shadow of death. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, muslims unitarians believe as you, that He was a created son. You are welcome to believe and give amens to those who oppose the eternal Son of God.
---Mark_V. on 9/2/11




I have to agree with Kathr of the Sonship of Christ.

Good stuff, Kathr. Well put.


Mark V,
Kathr's arguments are the same I have used against those who deny the deity of Christ. When you misunderstand what it meant to be a son, and try to press onto scripture the idea of an eternal Son, it should take you in the direction of JWs, Christadelphians and such as those. Why? Becuase they are actually reading that scripture says nothing of an eternal Son.

The Son said "the Father is greater than I"

Those words cannot be removed from scripture, Mark V. It would help to study what it meant to be a son in the OT.
---James_L on 9/2/11


MarkV, every one of us cannot see what is right in front of us. Thats why its called blind faith.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
"

Children have blind faith. Thats why Christ said we must be as little children. That faith comes from within us. Some people have hardened their hearts to such faith and will perish without it, because THAT Is exactly the faith Jesus is looking for. But not all men have faith, just as scripture states.

Faith is NOT a work. If scripture says its not, why do you insist that it is?

All we need is a mustard seed of it. God takes care of the rest.
---CraigA on 9/2/11


CraigA, MarkV doesn't realize how everyone is witnessing his DIVERSION of the Gospel, now making it about an eternal Son rather than SIN.

NO ONE is saved because they believe their was an eternal son from the beginning. However one IS SAVED if one believes the Word who was from teh beginning who was with God and was God was made FLESH, who's name was given Jesus meaning SAVIOR, and they place their faith in The Only BEGOTTEN SON of God who Died for our Sin, and rose again for our Justification.

This is the one I have placed my faith in. John 3:16 says we must believe in the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. The ONE who was Conceived of the Virgin Mary.

Is there any other Jesus in Scrpture who bore our sin?...NO!
---kathr4453 on 9/2/11


Considering the RCC developed this THEORY I have to wonder how much Roman and Greek Mathology wasn't laced with this development. In Mathology, gods MORPHED from one form to another. They want you to believe an eternal son MORPHED into a man. That even Mary Morphed and is now floating around space.

There is a difference between Morphed and Conceived.

JW and Mormons believe Michael the Archangel MORPHED and then went back into heaven and morphed back into Michael the Archangel.

Angels are also eternal Sons of God.
---kathr4453 on 9/2/11


Craig, the topic has great implications. The salvation of many. How can anyone present the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ if they don't believe the Father sent the Son to manifest Himself in the flesh and suffer for our sins in the flesh? He was the Son from eternity. I don't say this because I'm a trinitarian, but because it is the Word of God.
We should hold on the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God in His divine nature, as His eternal and only-begotten Son. Faith in Him as such will enable us to ride through many a storm, and bear the terrible indignation which will fall upon His enemies. Their whole object and aim is to overthrow the Deity of Jesus Christ by overthrowning His divine Sonship.
---Mark_V. on 9/2/11




Craig 2: He died in His humanity, and was raised up by the Father. The same will happen to us.
"For if we have been united together in the Likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection". The Eternal Son of God who is divine did not die, His humanity did. The One born of Mary, the body He manifested. Yet without sin. There is no other doctrine more important then His eternal Sonship. For if He was not sent, then He was born. But how can He become the Son when He is sent? How could the Eternal Father be an Eternal Father without an Eternal Son?
---Mark_V. on 9/2/11


Why cant we just agree that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and stop nitpicking?

And judging someone as non-Christian because they dont see eye to eye with you is a bit childish. I honestly expected better from you, Mark.

Jesus is the Christ. That is what we must believe. We must also believe that he is "I AM" just as he stated he was.

This argument is pointless. It really is.
---CraigA on 9/1/11


Kathr, You fight it. You refuse to believe. The word of God is in front of you and your reject it. The very same way the lost reject the Truth, you call it free will, I call it blindness. It's in front of them, but they are blind and do not see it, so they reject it with all their being.
You ask me:
" NOW go back to john 1. WHO was in the Beginning, who was WITH GOD in the Beginning." Jesus Christ just finished telling you that He was. Who was the Word? The Son of the living God.
Kathr, who was speaking the words? The Son, Jesus Christ. He was with the Father before the world was. He said so. Did you not hear Him? He testifies of the Father because He is God eternal. Who was manisfest in the flesh.
---Mark_V. on 9/1/11


And now Father, Glorify me with Thine own self, with the Glory I had with thee before the world was. NOW go back to john 1. WHO was in the Beginning, who was WITH GOD in the Beginning.

John 1, as I stated before NEVER says in the Beginning was a begotten Eternal Son.

You know MarkV, if we stuck right with scripture, we would have NO PROBLEMS showing all, JW, JEWS, Mormons a truth one can all agree on.

I actually believe satan congered up the eternal son theory through the RCC They murdered anyone who disagreed with them. Paul nor Peter felt the need to DEVELOP any doctrine about the Trinity.


SO WHY DID THEY?
---kathr4453 on 9/1/11


MarkV, it would appear you are the one who does not believe in the Christ of Scriptures. I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IN jOHN 17. Yet you seem to be saying the God Man Jesus was with the Father from the beginning. I believe the LOGOS/ Word is who was with the Father from the Beginning .

We all know that the RCC Mary and Jesus are not the Mary and Jesus of Scripture. But you insist they are. HOME TO ROME, or should I say Markv, you never left.
---kathr4453 on 9/1/11


MARK sorry it took some time
""andy, when someone says they had a vision from God in this age, they can never authenticate it's coming from God"? THIS SEEMS to be a problem for those who refuse the word of GOD as CENTRAL standard.
THATS' what false prophets will do they SAY THEY have a newrevelation NOT from THE WORD.
BEFOREa prophecy/revelation/vission canbe accepted it needsCarefull examination of the body of elders.
1has to agree with BIBLE.
2 CANEVER undo TRUE bibledoctrines (differnt from human churchrules)!!!
3 canever contradict itself or any former given revelation...
4 IS NEVER for pure personal gain, for all gifts, prophecy and revelation included, is given for the building of the church
---andy3996 on 9/1/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Franchises


Trav
Allow me to make it very clear for you.
YOUR OPINION OF ME MATTERS NOT TO ME.
I can elaborate if you would like me to.
Paul
---paul on 8/30/11

Elaborate on paulpaul. Never presumed 1 sec it would. Just spotlighting arrogance ....self elect pastors fool some of the sheep some of the time....but, not all.
Two or More Scriptures for witness provides the light...it is up to the sheep to avoid the teeth.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---Trav on 9/1/11


Kathr, I know you don't believe in the real Christ of the Bible so you won't believe His own words, but here it is,

"And now O Father, glorify Me beside Yourself, with "the glory which I had beside You before the world ever was" (John 17:5).

His Father was His father always. He had the same glory as the Father. This glory must be the glory of His divine nature, for His human nature He had not then assumed before the world ever was. Then "the glory of the Only-begotten of the Father" they had the same glory before the world was. And you don't believe in the real Jesus Christ, how can you believe in His words?
The anti-christ oppose the real Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/1/11


Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." The church of God, purchased with His own blood. In complete accord with this are the words of I Timothy 3:16 which reads, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." And once more in I John 3:16, it is written, "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us."
---kathr4453 on 8/31/11


\\First I want to say I have never judged Cluny as lost!!\\

Yes, you have, mima.

On several occasions.

**YOUR OPINION OF ME MATTERS NOT TO ME.**

As my father used say, "Likewise, I'm sure, paul."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/31/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Lead Generation


but we can say someone is not saved if they do not believe Jesus is the Son of the living God by faith. Many here admit they don't, so we can take them at their word and assume there is no salvation. It does not mean they will not be saved later, only that at this moment they do not believe through faith. Faith is absent.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11

Yet we have some here who deny the WORD who IS GOD was made flesh, also denying the WORD of God. They continually insist THE WORD was an eternal son prior to His Incarnation. Yet cannot prove through OT scripture there was an eternal son from the beginnig. We KNOW how Jesus is His BEGOTTEN SON, yet no scripture tells us how God had an eternal God JR from the beginning.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/11


Mima, I think you should recant what you just said,
"First I want to say I have never judged Cluny as lost!!!"
you have said that much so many times. Why you even said you were going to pray for him to be saved. I mention to you that we do not know who is saved because we cannot see the heart, but we can say someone is not saved if they do not believe Jesus is the Son of the living God by faith. Many here admit they don't, so we can take them at their word and assume there is no salvation. It does not mean they will not be saved later, only that at this moment they do not believe through faith. Faith is absent.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


Will say it until you prove differently.
There is no light in you or from you.
Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---Trav on 8/30/11

Trav

Allow me to make it very clear for you.

YOUR OPINION OF ME MATTERS NOT TO ME.

I can elaborate if you would like me to.

Paul
---paul on 8/30/11


andy, when someone says they had a vision from God in this age, they can never authenticate it's coming from God. How can they? We have to believe what they say. What we do know is that it is coming from man, not from God. Take the Christ of the tortilla in New Mexico. They said it was a sign from God. Would you believe that? Would Christ show Himself in a tortilla? I don't think so, yet those people believe it. What someone believes is not always holy. Eloy claims his vision is from God. Would God give him a vision where he points out to his wife at the Great white Throne of Judgment? I don't think so. His wife could be save by God before she dies. No one knows what God is going to do. Yet people believe what he says. Just nonesense.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


Send a Free Thanksgiving Ecard


I have tried to show them through scriptures as well as through my experiences but it is to no avail.
---paul on 8/29/11

What scripture? Like Cluny,been there experienced that. Understand you perfectly. You damage those who assume you know what you are talking about.

You glorify you. It is all about you as stated twice.
Would be one thing if you had an interpreter. You don't.
You can't even testify to what you are saying.
A dangerous type of emotionally driven, self promoting minister.

Will say it until you prove differently.
There is no light in you or from you.
Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---Trav on 8/30/11


First I want to say I have never judged Cluny as lost!!! Oh I know he says some outrageous things and is very brassy and condemning but still I believe he has salvation. Now comes this statement from Cluny,"I HAVE spoken in tongues, and God showed me eventually there was nothing of the Holy Spirit about this." I have never heard nor read of a person being informed by God that any tongues, even false tongues, were false the wisdom to discern false tongues comes from a discerning spirit and therefore this statement by Cluny confirms his salvation to me!!! Along with many other things he is written.
---mima on 8/30/11


\\ i've always been of the kind to put everything to the test. so i wonder "how did God show you it isn't from Him? dream revelation or what?\\

Experience. Looking at what was actually happening, and how this speaking in tongues actually affected my life and that of those around me.

I took a hard look at the doctrine (correctly, contradictory doctrines) that came with these signs.

I believe in the Holy Spirit and His gifts, not in Pentecostal/Charismatic piety.

They ARE different.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/30/11


Cluny, did you really understand the revelation received? sounds to me that (there was someone in a cave receiving revelations that christians lied, so he founded a religion against the lies causing indirectly every suffering in many parts of the world)
one should always be carefull with revealed things and test it, i've always been of the kind to put everything to the test. so i wonder "how did God show you it isn't from Him? dream revelation or what?
---andy3996 on 8/30/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Mortgages


Paul, you said, "people fear what they don't understand." So you must fear because you don't understand what you are saying when you speak in a tongue (singular) gibberish.
1 Cor. 14:39 goes with (v.40). "Let all things be done decently and in order" When everyone starts speaking in a tongue (gibberish) there is only disorder. Who gets the glory? man. Does it bring anyone to Christ? no, why? because the gospel is not been preached so that those who hear can understand.
Second, (v.39) speaks of languages (tongues) plural. If they are done in order, the gospel can be preached in another language. There is no language in "tongue" (singular)
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


\\Mark and Cluny and any other doubters have never experienced this therefore it cant be.

I find that mind set so restrictive and confining.\\

As I've said, paul, you really know nothing about me.

I HAVE spoken in tongues, and God showed me eventually there was nothing of the Holy Spirit about this.

Do you get it now?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/29/11


Cmon mark, your back with this teaching?
---andy3996 on 8/29

Andy

Mark and Cluny and any other doubters have never experienced this therefore it cant be.

I find that mind set so restrictive and confining.

It truly does limit what God can accomplish in someone to close something off that you have never experienced.

I have tried to show them through scriptures as well as through my experiences but it is to no avail.

So I don't bother anymore, it will not stop me from appreciating and operating in this gift myself.

People fear what they don't understand and its easier to attack it then to understand it.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 8/29/11


Cmon mark, your back with this teaching? even most baptists (originators of this specific teaching against William J. Seymour)don't believe it again.
for one i am glad that "pentecost" never became a denomination in its true sence. nowadays we have baptists, evangelicals, methodists, anglicans, romans, orthodox and from every christian branch that embraced the experience of pentecost. Pentecost (NOT THE CHURCHES) is the fastest growing movement and has caused more reunions then division. grnted some are fundamentalist in their belief and others very conservative. but thats what makes this so DIVINE that every tongue praises God with a heavenly language. 1 Corinthians 14:39 St. Paul's conclussion.
---andy3996 on 8/29/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Personal Loans


Paul, I do love you so what I say is in love. I know it's hard for someone who already has a theological bias on a doctrine to change. But you are a preacher and has to know.
The tongues (plural) was one of the gifts spoken of in 1 Cor. 12:29,30 was for languages in the Apostolic Church. Tongues were spoken of in many languages so that the Church which had no New Testament printed at the time could receive the Gospel in their own language. People were now been told to understand the Gospel of Christ when they had always gone by the Old Testament. Paul had trouble with the Corinthians because of the fake tongue (singular) so gave chapter 13 of the importance of love over all gifts.
---Mark_V. on 8/28/11


\\I don't feel special, this is a gift even you yourself could have.\\

As I already said, paul, I passed through the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement already, and God opened my eyes to its errors and delusion and shallowness.

I understand more than you think.

||It matters not to me, nor am I hurting anyone by doing so.||

But you ARE deceiving yourself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


I don't feel special, this is a gift even you yourself could have.

And I don't live my life for anyone here...
It matters not to me, nor am I hurting anyone by doing so.
.... you don't understand.
---paul on 8/26/11

Even Cluny? How generous. ha.
You don't understand even yourself. You cannot interpret but you ignorantly babble on?
You make merchandise of Christians on topics you say GOD's book needs help with? When does the mouth of the body of Christ charge the toe or leg of body for help?
I've interpreted your tongue & tinkling ministry.

1 Corinthians 13
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
---Trav on 8/26/11


In other words, you "feel" (there's that word again) that you are just a little bit special.

Where is the humility here?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/11

That is your view not my declaration.

I don't feel special, this is a gift even you yourself could have.

I know you don't desire it so it wont come.

And I don't live my life for anyone here so they can say what they want to say.

It matters not to me, nor am I hurting anyone by doing so.

Mark

God knows our hearts therefore He knows what I am. saying.

I don't expect you all to understand, but that is just it, you don't understand.

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Auto Insurance


Paul, you said God gives you the interpration of Gibberish?"
How? "How can you authenticate it's coming from God? God tells us
" For I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them" ( Ezek. 11:5). If you do not know what your saying how can He know what's in your mind? The Apostles were given gifts and they could authenticate by the Spirit they came from God. How can you or anyone authenticate they come from God without a witness of any kind? Since no one can understand "Gibberish" It cannot be interpret. Think of what Eloy said, he was at the Great White Throne of Judgment and wanted us to know his wife was going to hell. Are we to believe it came from God?
---Mark_V. on 8/26/11


\\... so how do you explain its origins?\\

I've already given one: you are simply speaking in yourself. And I'm not the only one here who suggested it.

\\As I let go of my control it takes over ....

The Bible says, "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." The fact that you are putting your mind in neutral and your mouth in high illustrates the spiritual danger to which you are exposing yourself.

\\It edifies me not for I don't even know what my spirit is saying, unless God gives me the interpretation.\\

In other words, you "feel" (there's that word again) that you are just a little bit special.

Where is the humility here?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/11


No, you merely THINK you know what it is or where it came from,
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/11

No Cluny I am very sure where it came from, it is not a language I know or have studied or practiced so how do you explain its origins?

As I let go of my control it takes over and comes forth, praying in the spirit and communing with God.

It edifies me not for I don't even know what my spirit is saying, unless God gives me the interpretation.

Doubt all you want, if you ever experience it you will doubt no longer, till then God Bless you friend.

Paul
---paul on 8/25/11


I have never known a man who spoke in tongues to be against speaking in tongues. But a certain resentment and criticism always comes from those who wish they too spoke in tongues.
---mima on 8/25/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Holidays


\\I know what it is and where it came from and I will continue to use it to Bless God with.\\

No, you merely THINK you know what it is or where it came from, and you have nothing to prove your point, other than subjective feelings, which are NOTHING to go on.

Going merely by what we feel will ultimately lead to spiritual delusion.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/11


Paul, even the elect will walk away from someone speaking gibberish. They need to hear the Truth of the gospel. When God is ready to save someone of the elect, He will have someone present the Gospel Truth and they will believe, they will repent, and they will confess the Lord Jesus. If He is Mexican or a latin country, I could speak the gospel of Christ to them, in their tongue, for I know how to speak in Spanish. Now Spanish might be gibberish to you but it is another language. There's a difference. "Tongues" other languages, or "Tongue" gibberish, which only edifies one-self.
God knows what we will pray for before we do, and He does not understand gibberish. He gives us instructions how to pray.
---Mark_V. on 8/25/11


I am ceremonial. Worship and listening are good but love is a verb.
---Scott1 on 8/25/11


Again, you have no basis for this other than "I feel so", which matter we've discussed earlier.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/11

Thats correct, so again it is up to you to believe it or call me a liar.

It's your choice, it really does not matter either way to me.

I know what it is and where it came from and I will continue to use it to Bless God with.

And you never told me how crowded it was on the ark. lol

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Health Insurance


\\But don't tell me that the sweet language the the Lord has given me is wrong, for He did not think so when He gave it to me.

And He is a Spirit so of course He understands spiritual language.
\\

Ah, but is this in fact a spiritual language that God gave you?

Again, you have no basis for this other than "I feel so", which matter we've discussed earlier.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/11


''If you want to be among those whom God calls ''my people''...there are genuine Christians today striving to live by those [Bible] principles, who are willing to die for them..they're at peace with one another, have love for one another and united in unselfishly aiding those who seek to know the truth [unlike those other churches].'' (Is the Bible the Word of God?, p. 179)

''[The JWs] are the most loyal citizens anyone could wish for:..don't dodge taxes...their moral ideals, personal honesty.'' (The Bible God's Word or man's?, p. 182)

''The Pharisee stood and prayed thus, 'God, I thank you that I'm not like other men...I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I possess.''' (Luke 18)
---Marc on 8/24/11


Paul could you define ceremonial. The only ceremonial people in the Bible that comes to mind is the Pharisses. But I don't think this is what you mean. Hopefully I am a recovering pharisse. Trying to be more Christ (spirit) like.
---Scott1 on 8/24/11

If you can envision Mary and Martha that is kind of what I am referring to.

One desired to ceremonialy serve Christ through service and one desired to experience Christ on a personal level.

That is what I am referring to.

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


If people hear you speaking in gibberish, how shall they believe
---Mark_V. on 8/24/11

If an unbeliever heard you speak in a tongue, he would walk out.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/11


Mark

According to your doctrine, if God has destined them for salvation they would accept Christ no matter what I am speaking or not, so how could they walk out of they are destined for that time and place.

That is your doctrine, not mine.

Mark, God gave me the ability to communicate with Him in the Spirit, it is not meant to edify the Church or for the sake of unbelievers.

I dont expect you to understand it, but I still love you my brother.

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Dating


He never mentioned to pray in a tongue.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/11

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints,

Mark their are many different tongues spoken about in the Bible.

If you choose to ignore it or discount it that is your choice.

But don't tell me that the sweet language the the Lord has given me is wrong, for He did not think so when He gave it to me.

And He is a Spirit so of course He understands spiritual language.

If you don't understand something, don't speak against it.

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


Paul 2: If people hear you speaking in gibberish, how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? So then faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the world of God.
As I said before this subject is a very touchy subject for many who do gibberish talking. There is not much need for the original "Tongues" (Plural) languages since we have believers who can now interpret in Spanish, English, and almost all languages when needed. I interpret in Spanish when the pastor ask me to interpret what he is saying and someone is in the church who does not understand English. We have mikes we use for them so they can hear.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/11


Paul could you define ceremonial. The only ceremonial people in the Bible that comes to mind is the Pharisses. But I don't think this is what you mean. Hopefully I am a recovering pharisse. Trying to be more Christ (spirit) like.
---Scott1 on 8/24/11


\\I have not been taught nor is it in my own will which allows me to speak in a tongue that I know not.\\

That remains to be seen. I know what you claim for yourself, but that doesn't mean anything.

\\You have not experienced it so you don't understand it.\\

paul, you know nothing about me.

As a matter of fact, I passed through the charismatic movement, and I know what I'm talking about, what I've experienced, and what I've seen.

I will say no more.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Health Treatments


Reba could just as easily been describing what took place on the day of pentecost. When The Holy Spirit is involved many times miraculous things take place. Someone speaks in their native tongue another person hears in their native tongue and these native tongues are different.
---mima on 8/24/11


TRAV, apologise apologise apologise.
---andy3996 on 8/24/11


Paul, I don't believe what you say to us is a lie, that you really do what you say you do. What I believe is that what you do is wrong. There is two kinds of tongues, languages, and tongue (singular) gibberish. And as a pastor you should know that God has given us a way to pray. He never mentioned to pray in a tongue. He would not understand what you are saying. It might make you look religious, and give you excitment, but does not glorify God but you. I do believe as Reba said, that in some circumstances, God will give the gift of tongues in certain siduations like she mentioned. But not what is going on now in the Churches. If an unbeliever heard you speak in a tongue, he would walk out.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/11


Reba

This is the same tongue as in the second chapter of Acts on the day of Pentecost.

I have encountered such events as well.


But scriptures bare out other accounts of tongues with a different administration.

Paul
---paul on 8/23/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Affiliate Program


You have two choices here, accept what I am telling you through my first hand account or you can call me a liar and say my gift is of the devil.

I'll leave that up to you.
---paul on 8/23/11

I personally would never trust your first hand account. Nothing personal, just an observation. Scripture calls for an interpretor. You offer no interpretor or interpretation....other than you are a some tongue holy man. By your own experience accounts.
Trapped into a blog corner you place a choice about your unknown,unproven,uninterpreted "gifts".
Hmmmm. Getting a pretty good idea.....from your lack of scripture supporting your ministry of opinion.
---Trav on 8/23/11


I heard a missionary speak about the Holy Spirit's guidance in tongues once. He said there was a new missionary unfamiliar with the language & was witnessing to a native in the village. The man received Christ as his saviour. Afterwards the missionary talked with the man & said how could you understand this man since he wasn't speaking your tongue? The native said, oh but he was speaking my tongue, perfectly. The missionary heard English & the other heard his native tongue. Another story where(English) using Spanish while reading to a Spanish speaking audience. This is what I call the gift of tongues. I'm not sure of the other forms of "unknown tongues".
---Reba on 8/23/11


I have not been taught nor is it in my own will which allows me to speak in a tongue that I know not.

I have dealt with doubters before and this will go no where.

You have not experienced it so you don't understand it.

It is when my spirit makes utterances for me, it flows out not with any thought of my own.

Again you can accept or reject it, makes no difference to me either way.

Seek and you shall find,

Paul
---paul on 8/23/11


Paul,

Why do you only leave room for two options concerning your tongues?

Either your tongue is a genuine, humanly unknown language, or it is of the devil?

I have never heard you speak in tongues, so I could not judge the matter. But a third option is that it could be a manifestatnon of the flesh desirously longing for a deeper connectino with God through an experience.
---James_L on 8/23/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Abortion Facts


Someone once stood up at such a gathering and said, "Pater imon o en tis ouranois, agiasthito to onoma sou...."

Someone tried to interpret this as the usual, "O, my children I am with you to bless you....."

It was actually the Lord's Prayer in Greek.

\\You have two choices here, accept what I am telling you through my first hand account or you can call me a liar and say my gift is of the devil.\\

Third alternative: you could simply be mistaken and are just speaking in yourself.

I've seen too many churches where people TAUGHT you how to speak in tongues.

If it is something that can be taught, it is clearly not a gift.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/11


I also deny that "tongues" is a heavenly language known only to God. It cannot be supported in scripture without appealing to ambiguous passages and reading into the text.
---James_L on 8/23/11

James

Many times were tongues spoken for reasons other than as a sign to unbelievers.

I speak in tongues when praying in the Spirit, sometimes when praising and when the Spirit gives utterance in a service as a message to the Church.

You have two choices here, accept what I am telling you through my first hand account or you can call me a liar and say my gift is of the devil.

I'll leave that up to you.

Paul
---paul on 8/23/11


"which do you think you are and why?" Spiritual. It is the Spirit that gives life, and I choose life. The ceremonial church is not necessarily void of the Spirit and Life, but I have been in a ritualistic dead church in past, was led to a nondenominational church. Difference in this instance was night and day.(or life and death) There is much significance, and beauty in certain ceremony, but must include the Spirit.
---Chria9396 on 8/23/11


\\... weighed in the balance ceremonial Christianity is more harmful and limiting to one's relationship with Christ.
---mima on 8/23/11\\

mima, Christ attended services in the Temple AND in the Synagogues, which were richly ceeremonial, and He never condemned them on those grounds. In fact He even LED various ceremonies in the Synagogue AND in the home--and Jewish domestic life is still very ceremonial in itself, with set prayers for different actions of daily life.

Ceremony in Christian life and worship cannot be avoided, even if it's denied.

Taking up the collection, for one thing, is a ceremonious act in many Protestant and Pentecostal churches.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Acne Treatment


\\I find your pentecostal, charismatic and evangelical type churches focus more on the Spirituality of the Christian experience ...\\

Oh, they all have their own ceremonies, too.

Just because it's not written down in a book, or even a bulletin, doesn't mean they don't have ceremonies.

They are just as liturgical, in their way, as a Papal High Mass.

Any time people gather together to worship, there is going to be SOME kind of order and pattern. The real question is will it be something they made up on the spot, or will it be following the pattern passed down from the times of the Apostles?

Spontaneity is NOT necessarily spiritual.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/11


Andy3996,

I do not deny tongues, some believers do speak in other languages as the Spitit gives utterance.

What I deny is that tongues is THE evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor 12:30 "all do not speak with tongues, do they?"

Paul is speaking of spirit-filled believers who might prophesy or heal but do not speak in tongues.

I also deny that "tongues" is a heavenly language known only to God. It cannot be supported in scripture without appealing to ambiguous passages and reading into the text.

Pentecostal? absolutely. The Holy Spirit has not left us, nor taken His gifts back. But I do not follow fancy superstitions
---James_L on 8/23/11


Paul,

I agree that neiter your, nor my, proposition was meant to be a blanket thrown on all of a particular persuasion.

It is a shame that many denominations have forced a choice between truth and experience.

Silly so-called Charismatics clucking like chickens and falling down when someone head-butts them.

Stale, dry Baptists who can't seem to get excited about anything beyond dinner.

When will the Body of Christ come together?

If I have to choose, I side with truth over experience.

And I give a hearty AMEN when you say tongues isn't a sign of anything.

Bless you, brother
---James_L on 8/23/11


I have to say spiritual. Ceremonial Christianity may be necessary for some people but weighed in the balance ceremonial Christianity is more harmful and limiting to one's relationship with Christ.
---mima on 8/23/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Bad Credit Loans


Baptists, etc are usually seeking TRUTH while
Pentecostals are seeking an EXPERIENCE
---James_L on 8/23/11

I could not agree more with your post,only, and I think you would agree, that statement is not absolute either.

And that is not exactly what I am saying that Baptist all stray away from Spirituality.

I use to watch Binghamtown Baptist on TV and they were very Spiritual.

I am simply saying that those demographics typically focus on the various aspects of their particular doctrinal professions.

I am Pentecostal as well, but I vary from the majority of other Pents in my supporting theology.

Tongues is NOT EVIDENCE of anything,

Great post,
Paul
---paul on 8/23/11


Pentecostal who deny Tongues? or isn't that what you meant JamesL?
there are aspects in any denomination, even the freeer pentecostals that are fundamental.
if these things arent sought after then that denomination is only that in name.
So jamesL ca you explain?
---andy3996 on 8/23/11


Paul,

I disagree when you say that non-Pentecostals stray away from the spiritual side.

I am a Pentecostal, and I can tell you what I have observed.

Baptists, etc are usually seeking TRUTH while
Pentecostals are seeking an EXPERIENCE

How many Pentecostal churches harbor false teachers? TOO MANY. "Revelation" doctrines run rampant, false tongues, fake "Word of Knowledge"

Most Pentecostals are always looking for a sign - Tongues especially.

Scripture says that tongues are a sign for UN believers, so what does that tell you?
---James_L on 8/23/11


Paul, I'm a very private, somewhat shy type personality therefore, would never say I'm charismatic or even evangelical in my Christian walk. I am Baptist, so yes, our services are more structured toward order & more quite in general. However, I would have to say that my Christian walk is more spiritual in the fact that my goal is to live my life pleasing my Father. I worship Him in Spirit & truth. It's a more personal spirituality rather than a more open, charismatic one. I talk with God all the time in prayer. I depend on Him. My Dad is the pastor of our church & my husband, daughter,son-in-law & I do the music for the 3 services each Sunday. So I'm active in service but still more quite overall.
---Reba on 8/23/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Bankruptcy


BOTH, one cannot without the other.
HOLY supper Spiritual ceremony
Baptism Spiritual ceremony
Marriage spiritual ceremony
anointing of the sick spiritual ceremony
worship spiritual ceremony
installing of ministry spiritual ceremony
even nonconventional nondenominationals have ceremonies.
noone is seperated from it,
UNLESS of course you meant something completaly else with
ceremonial
and
Spiritual
CHRISTOS KURIOS, Maranatha.
---andy3996 on 8/23/11


"I see two sides of Christianity, ceremonial and spiritual, which do you think you are and why?" Spiritual in the sense that I am dependent upon His Spirit to lead me into His Truth, and to empower me to live out that Truth. Rom 12:1 is my mainstay. I offer myself a living sacrifice, to be led of His Spirit as He sees fit. I view myself as one set apart, and acceptable to Him only in His Beloved Son. Which is for me, true Spiritual worship. You see Paul, as pertaining to service in His kingdom, I know that without Him I can do no good thing. Whether I consider that thing that I do spiritual, ceremonial, or simply a matter of tradition.
---Josef on 8/23/11


I am definitly a Spiritual Christian. Notice I used the capital on Spiritual so there would be no doubt I mean the Holy Ghost,God,Jesus Spiritual. I have often thought I would never want any other kind of walk with God for God is a Spirit and we must worship him in Spirit and in truth. To walk in the Spiritual realm with God is to be outside the usual human walk on this earth for I have a direct line to God through Jesus,as all Christians can, and God often speaks to me in many different ways leading me in my walk for him and with him and in this life. I can speak one to one with God in Jesus Name and I never would want it any other way.
---Darlene_1 on 8/22/11


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.