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Meaning Of Son Of God

Does the bible say that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, or the eternal Word of God? Do you believe the two phrases 'Son of God' and 'Word of God' mean the same thing?

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 ---James_L on 8/23/11
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Marc has finally summoned the courage to consider Prof.Moule's examination of John 20:28 and has been confronted with the inconvenient truth that 'the article before 'theos' may therefore not be significant.'

On face value, the expression 'The God of me' is thus not what Thomas had in mind in the sense Marc believes. Neither does Thomas call Jesus 'his God'. Thomas already knew YHWH (Jehovah) was his God. Thomas is not identifying Jesus as 'the God' at Jo.20:28 however much Marc plays with Thomas' words.

Again, Marc's faith begins and ends with the words of the imperfect man Thomas & mean more to Marc than that of Jesus' words. Salvation depends on Jesus and his words. Jesus said, 'I am ascending to... MY GOD'- John 20:17.
---David8318 on 8/25/11


"Jehovah is a person with a number of names" Warwick

No-
"I am Jehovah, that is my name..." Is 42:8 ASV

"That men may know that you, Whose Name alone is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the Earth". Psalm 83:18

Brown-Driver-Briggs:

"[YHWH] appears 6,828 times in the Biblia Hebraica...This number...is quite remarkable [when] compared with titles given to God..."

"He is also called Jehovah-Jireh" Warwick

No. A place in the land of Moriah was given this name.

If you used translations that have not removed the divine name (6,828 times) perhaps you would be more familiar with it.
---scott on 8/25/11


Warwick- as usual, your verbal diet of lies continues. Everyone can see it was you who began quoting the Watchtower Dec.1, 1972 article, not me. Your original use of this article is still on the 'Father Jesus God' thread.

To quote what you said- 'Apparently touching improperly is forbidden! This comes from the Watchtower 1st December 1972, p. 735. Apparently love-making techniques had to be approved!' (Warwick 7/6/11)

That article doesn't mention 'improper touching' and is just another Warwick lie. Warwick is bent both physically and spiritually if he believes the perversions discussed therein are 'love making techniques'.

Beginning to feel the heat Warwick? Lies aren't going to get you out of the cesspit you've dug.
---David8318 on 8/25/11


David, it is not me who is 'lying.' It was you who began writing about the Watchtower article of December 1, 1972, not me.

I merely wrote about the WTS ban on 'improper touching' during sexual relations between married couples. I wondered what this meant, and asked you to spell out what this term involves however you won't, satisfying yourself with branding me a sexual pervert. You are a true and representative product of an unbalanced evil cult.
---Warwick on 8/25/11


Paul part 1,
Look. I don't appreciate the allegations and accusattions. I answered Mark Eaton as to the purpose of this blog, because this topic was being dragged through 5 or 6 different blogs, and each time it never received anything more than surface comments and allegations of someone denying the deity of Christ.

SO, I suggested to Mark V that we take it up in ots own thread.

And, you say I am trying to contort the word of God? How do you knwo my motives? I have done my best to give a reasonable answer to every one of your questions, or to ask you to clarify so that I can answer. Please don't accuse my motives unless I tell you what my motive is.
---James_L on 8/25/11




Paul part 2,
You're so good at asking questions, how about you answer one.

In Genesis 22, why did GOD say that Isaac was Abraham's ONLY son?

Now let's see how you twist scripture to answer that, if you even do answer.

Here's another one concerning Jesus' use of "F"ather and "f"ather

Did Jesus tell the disciples to pray the THEIR "F"ather in heaven? YES or NO ???

Does that mean that the disciples were sons from eternity ???

From Scripture, please.

Hint:
You're gonna have to look deeper than English punctuation and capitalization to get a grasp of scripture
---James_L on 8/25/11



James

Jesus is the SON of God, this was from the beginning or from the foundation
(John 17:24) of the world.

He was the SON during creation (Gen 1:26) and (Eph 3:9)

He was the SON when the three Hebrew boys stood in need of His deliverance as the fourth man in the furnace.(Dan3:25)

He was the SON when He was born (1John 4:14) as savior

He was the SON at His baptism (Mark 1:11)

He was the SON upon His temptation(Matt 4:3)

And thought the entire NT, but unless God reveals it to you it will continue to be a mystery to you. Matt (16:15-17)

There is ALL the proof one needs to make an informed decision, so that is all I can do for you.

Paul
---paul on 8/25/11


JamesL, Bringing in Abraham and Isaac, where he acknowledges Isaac as his only son, knowing Ishmael was too a son absolutely means HEIR.

But I think it's hard for those who have never been challenged beyond their comfortable place.

I will point out though, Just as the RCC refer to Mary as the Mother of God, and that Mary today is floating around in space as though she were a god, is actually where this whole trinity concept of the pre BC eternal son came from.

I promise, no born Again grounded in the scriptures Jew would explain the Trinity in this way.

And untaught Gentiles would never understand what you are saying here.

ALL scripture is for edification, etc. Scripture teaches scripture.
---kathr4453 on 8/25/11


lit.Gk: "In beginning being the Word, and the Word being from God, and God being the Word. This One being in beginning from God. He being in the world, and by him the world came into being, and the world knew him not. Concerning the Son of him, the coming of the heir of David, down from flesh, marked out the Son of God in power, down from Spirit of holiness, out from resurrection from death. But when came the fulness his time, sent forward that God whom Son of him, coming of a woman, coming under law, in order that them under law he can redeem, so that the adoption of sons we may receive." Jn.1:1,2,10+ Rm.1:3,4+ Gal.4:4,5.
---Eloy on 8/25/11


James, you said to Paul,

"The Word of God became flesh. He was not the Christ, or Jesus, until He became flesh. He was the Word of God."

Christ became flesh, He was the Word. When He became flesh the name Jesus was given to His humanity. But He has always been the Christ. The very reason He said,
"Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). His listeners immediately understood that Christ was claiming to be eternal and thereby was asserting to be God. The Old T. evidence for the eternity of Christ is both direct and indirect. In Messianic prophecy Christ is spoken of as the Child to be born in Bethlehem "Whose goings forth have been from of Old, from everlasting" ( Michah 5:2 ).
---Mark_V. on 8/25/11




James 2: When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" This "I am" is the climax of a series of affirmations in John 8 beginning with "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). The Jews took up stones to stone Him, which was the prescribed penalty for blasphemy.
Isaiah 9:6 Christ is declared to be not only "Mighty God" but also "everlasting Father"
"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, All thing were created by Him, and for Him, and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist" Col. 1:16,17.
---Mark_V. on 8/25/11


James 2: When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" This "I am" is the climax of a series of affirmations in John 8 beginning with "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). The Jews took up stones to stone Him, which was the prescribed penalty for blasphemy.
Isaiah 9:6 Christ is declared to be not only "Mighty God" but also "everlasting Father"
"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, All thing were created by Him, and for Him, and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist"
Col. 1:16,17.
---Mark_V. on 8/25/11


David,

You plagiarised Moule. However, on the same page 117: ''Finally, note that the use or non-use of the article may be due to the influence of Semitic idiom rather than deliberate desire to modify the sense. A noun in the construct state in Hebrew is never allowed to carry the article, and this may sometimes be sufficient to explain anarthrous noun in a Greek equivalent phrase..Conversely, the use of the article with a virtual Vocative (cf John 20:28) may also be due to Semitic idiom.''

In any case, article or no article, Thomas called Jesus his God. Arians explain!
---Marc on 8/25/11


Ge 6:18 "But I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall go into the ark-you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.

James again you are wrong and trying to contourt the Word of God to back you up.

The example you site is the only one, to my knowledge, where a household with more than one man child was referred to as a only son.

You are truly stretching and making it up as you go.

In the OT sons in the plural is used 1075 times.

Come on, stop fabricating and recreating in the name of Jesus.

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


Paul part 2,

You are thinking of "son" the same we sould today. If a man fathers 4 boys, we say he has 4 sons. But in biblical times, he would have 4 children but only one son.

Therefore she said to Abraham, Drive out this maid and her "son", for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my "son" Isaac. (Gen 21:10)

There are two different words used for "son". In the very next chapter, God tells Abraham to offer his ONLY "son" (gen 22:2, 12, 16)
---James_L on 8/24/11


Jesus called God "Father" at 12 years old, but that's not the same as Jesus being the Son
---James_L on 8/24/11

James

That is RIDICULOUS, notice in the text that when Jesus refers to Joseph it is a lower case f.

When referring to God it is with a upper case F denoting GOD.

Lu 2:48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed, and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously."
id to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?"

Plainly Jesus was referring to God as His Father.

The baptism was to endue Him with power from on high to start His ministry.


Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


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Scott, Jehovah is a person with a number of names and titles, including Jehovah Our Righteousness. Why is He called our Righteousness? That's hard! For the one reason, He is our Righteousness. He is also called Jehovah-Jireh meaning Jehovah Will provide, because He will provide.

Why is Jesus called Creator, Redeemer, Saviour because He is. Why is He named Jehovah Our Righteousness? For the same reason, as Romans 3:22 says.

Jerusalem was called Jehovah Our Righteousness only because God's presence was there above the mercy seat, between the cherubim.

Jerusalem has no inherent Righteousness, only the Righteousness bestowed via the presence of Jesus Jehovah Our Righteousness.
---Warwick on 8/24/11


Scott I admire your tenacity even though you are wrong.

The difference between you and many others here is you are locked into the doctrine of an autocratic organization which will brook no opposition. From long experience I know that your doctrine is laid down for you book by book, chapter, verse, and word.

The WTS in its arrogance considers it is Gods sole voice upon the earth. If true that means God abandoned the world for more than 1800 years! Nonsense.

This is an organization which commands how JW's live even down to bedroom behaviour and medical proceedures doggedly insisting certain things are against God's word. But then the WTS changes its mind so it wasn't God's word after all.
---Warwick on 8/24/11


James

Why is it when your wrong about something you just ignore it and trudge right on?(not the Son till baptism)

That should be enough to cause you to reevaluate your train of thought.

I don't see the relevance of the topic to start with.

What changes about His position or purpose either way.

Is it impossible that He was always with the Father as the Son?

I get a bad feeling about your whole premise, this is what is wrong with the body.

It is divided over matters that mean nothing alot of times.

I think Dan 3:25 says it all anyway, but you wont answer that, will you.

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


\\Not so.
"...I must be about My Father's business?"
Paul\\
---paul on 8/24/11

Paul, Isaac was Abraham's "only son" (Heb 11:17 - monogene), the same exact word used of Jesus as God's Only Son (John 3:16).

But Abraham had other "children"

All the children would call him "father", but he had only one "son"

Jesus called God "Father" at 12 years old, but that's not the same as Jesus being the Son.

Read Deut 25:5-10. A man would raise up a son for his dead brother. The child would be the offspring of the living man, but the son of the dead man. This "son" would carry on the family name and be the HEIR of the dead man.
---James_L on 8/24/11


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aka,

Elohim (which is plural, called the plural of majesty or excellency) is the word of most frequent occurrence. When it is distinctly used for the one true God the article is often added(Morrish Bible Dictionary)

The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty , or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.(Smiths bible dictionary)

These are fellow Trinitarian scholars. As I said, one person, doctrine doesn't change grammar.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11


"Elohim" aka

"And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee Elohim (God - Pl) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." Ex 7:1 DBY

One Moses.

The plural (Elohim) is generally referred to by Hebrew scholars as the "Plural of majesty". It assigns importance or grandeur to a singular person.
---scott on 8/24/11


Willa - //Why does it say "God(singular)said", verse 27- //

v 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. ..."

not only would God be an it, but He sounds kind of crazy.

Willa, do you understand that you are making our point better than we can. Isn't it mysterious that God uses both singular and plural?
---aka on 8/24/11


//Why does it say "God(singular)said",...//

Thank you willa!

That is the whole point!

Why would God singular use a plural word for God? Kind of mysterious isn't it?

1 Timothy 3:16

Thank you!
---aka on 8/24/11


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"Jesus...literally is Jehovah Our Righteousness." Warwickian special pleading-

Then Jehozadak, whose name means "Jehovah Declared Righteous" or "Jehovah Is Righteous," was literally Jehovah himself. (1Chron. 6:14, 15)

And Zedekiah, who's name means "The Righteousness of Jah", was literally Jehovah.

So was a place- "Jehovah Will Provide" (Genesis 22:14) and an alter "Jehovah is Peace" (Jg 6:22-24) and yes, Jerusalem Jer 33:16.

You are stretching for a literal application in one case because you want it to fit a failed premise, while in every other case it's figurative?

You're embarrassing yourself with this.
---scott on 8/24/11


Mark Eaton,

Other translations say in him YLT, Rotherham Emphasized, English Revised and in ESV's note it says,by means of or in. What does the end of the verse say all thing were created through him and for him proving in fits the context better.

Colossians 2:12-you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead. God raised the him in verse 2:9, making him man, not God. It speaks of Gods divine nature being fully in Christ, a physical man, not a phantom as the Dosetics said. He was the image of God as Adam was, completely full of Gods nature just as we are full of Adams nature. Read the first three verses of the letter, Gods son.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11


Mark Eaton,

Please explain this.

1Corinthians 8:4,6-there is no God but one...yet for us there is one God, the Father
Is there anyway to say one or two more people are God as well if the Father is the one God and as Jesus said in his prayer to the Father, "the only true God"?

Please don't ask me a question as a response, just answer my question with an explanation.

Shalom
---willa5568 on 8/24/11


To my understanding, He was The Word, The Son, and The Christ from Eternity to Eternity.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/11

I understand what JamesL is saying. It's like saying, when my wife was a little girl. However she wasn't his wife when she was a little girl. YET so many read scripture this way concerning Christ. Jesus the Christ or Messsiah is the name Given to the Begotten Son at His birth.

Did teh Son of Man exist tooo from eternity past? Did the Son of David also exist in eternity past? so what happened 2000 years ago is only a figment of one's imagination?
---kathr4453 on 8/24/11


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\\Why is it important to try and define Him in this way? What purpose does it serve?\\
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/11


The purpose is a clear, biblical understanding of the difference between His nature and His position.

If these distinctions aren't made, we cannot account for the scriptures which say that Jesus is equal to God (Philippians 2:6) and that the Father is greater than He is (John 14:28)

and a difficulty at Hebrews 1:5, the Father saying "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"

When all aspects of Christ are muddled together, it gives rise to blatant, rampant heresy, as we have see on this thread as well as others.
---James_L on 8/24/11


Warwick- your lies regarding the Watchtower article of December 1, 1972 are becoming more apparent. Nowhere in that article does it mention 'improper touching'. Rather, the article detailed specific immoral activities in Satan's world any right-minded person, Christian or non-Christian would avoid.

I'm sure if you had been around in Paul's day, you'd have lambasted him for dictating what goes on in people's bedrooms when he gave counsel such as, 'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement,' (Heb.13:4) or 'males with males, working what is obscene' (Ro.1:27).

The only reason I can see for your criticism of the Watchtower for defending clean moral behaviour is because that is something you lack.
---David8318 on 8/24/11


Kathr4453- Proverbs 8 does state wisdom 'came to be beside him (God) as a master worker (8:30).

But where in Proverbs 8 does it say 'and Wisdom was God'? Please point this out otherwise your use of Proverbs 8 in this discussion falls flat.

Wisdom is 'beside' God. Wisdom is not the God it is 'beside' just as 'the Word' is not the God it is 'with'- John 1:1.

Thus, you have not refuted my conclusion put before Allan in that trinitarians are polytheists in their rendering of John 1:1. Trinitarians have 2 God's at John 1:1- the 'God' with whom 'the Word was with', and the Word who is also 'God'.
---David8318 on 8/24/11


So correctly God is an I.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11

Hmm.

Please explain what this verse means:

Col 2:9 "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"

Who is the Him in the verse and what is the fullness of Deity?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/11


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Scott, the coming Saviour,our Lord Jesus is named Jehovah Our Righteousness because He literally is Jehovah Our Righteousness.

"There is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10) but those who believe are made righteous "...through faith in Jesus Christ..." Romans 3:22. A living righteousness gained throught the unmerited favour of our living God, Jesus Christ.

Jerusalem is called Jehovah Our Righteousness, for a totally different reason because the presence of Almighty God is there "...enthroned between the cherubim.." Isaiah 37:16. John 20:12 records two angels were seated where the body of Jesus Jehovah Our Righteousness had been, one at His head another at His feet also Jerusalem!
---Warwick on 8/24/11


16 should not read created by him, but rather in him, which is attested to at the end.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11

I prefer not to read INTO Scripture but out of it. The text is plain, All things were created BY HIM. Sorry if this does not fit your theology.

Col 1:16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things have been created through Him and for Him"
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/11


If you go with the trinitarian rendering of John 1:1- 'the Word was with God, and the Word was God', then you have 2 God's.David8313//

That is not true.

Just as Proverbs states WISDOM was with God, doesn't mean WISDOM was Jesus Nephew or God's second cousin.
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Proverbs 8:
17I love them that love me, and those that seek me early
shall find me

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.


So David, is WISDOM in competition with God or a little god?
---kathr4453 on 8/24/11


mark eaton,

I am YHWH your God, there none else(Joel 2:27). A them does not use personal pronouns(one person) like I, me, mine, him, his, unless you change simple grammatical rules of coarse. Over 20,000 times personal pronouns are used in reference to YHWH our God in the OT alone. Even Jesus himself agrees with this saying, "that they know you(the Father), the only true God". How many is only, if the Father is the only true God? Jesus is the only born son, like none other, of the only true God, thus the son of God. The holy spirit is the power of the Most High(Luke 1:35), not God. Both are of God, Him being the source they come and came from.

So correctly God is an I.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11


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here is what trinitarians say if John 1:1 speaks of the Son. "In the beginning was the Son. The son was with the Father(since he had to be with somebody it couldn't be anyone else) and the Son was the Father", except for some unjustifiable reason you change God in the last section of this verse.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11


the Word from eternity (was)
the Christ from His birth (is)
the Son who becomes King (is to come)
---James_L on 8/24/11

We are discussing the same person. Why is it important to try and define Him in this way? What purpose does it serve?

To my understanding, He was The Word, The Son, and The Christ from Eternity to Eternity.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/11


"Employed full-time by the WTS"- Warwick

So what's the going rate for a heretic in today's economy?

Jehovah's Witnesses don't have paid ministers. They don't even pass collection plates. (It took a while to get used to that, what with my Baptist upbringing and all).

They certainly do not 'employ' people to defend their faith, no matter where and how they chose to do it.

I work full-time in the secular world like most Witnesses...and everybody else.
---scott on 8/24/11


Mark Eaton,

Colossians 1:1,2--Grace to you and peace from God our Father. We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you. 12-14-giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the saints inheritance in the light. He...transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15-firstborn of all creation, 18 says He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. What creation is spoken of? The Kingdom of God, notice in 16 the creation spoken of is governmental. 16 should not read created by him, but rather in him, which is attested to at the end.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11


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"Jehovah Is Our Righteousness" Warwick

Jeremiah 33:16 tells us that even Jerusalem was to be called "Jehovah is our righteousness". Clearly that does not mean that Jerusalem was Jehovah.

Jehovah's righteousness will be accomplished (and is being accomplished) through our Savior Jesus Christ.

"For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Cor 8:6 NIV
---scott on 8/24/11


It's far DEEPER than trying to disect the Trinity.

As the "resurrected" Lord stood before the disciples, He says: "These are my words which I spake unto you" Lk. 24:44 , and goes on to say that His resurrection had been predicted throughout the Old Testament words of God. He had made both His words and the words of God into flesh as He stood there. He didnt say "Look everyone, Ive risen!". He just stood there, reminded them of the words of the prophets, and His own words, and said "These are my words". He was so powerfully and completely the word made flesh.

Those words spoken through the Prophets, and through Angels God Now said are spoken directly to us through His Son.
---kathr4453 on 8/24/11


Allan- there is only one God I agree, and that is what John 1:1 states. God as in the Almighty God.

'The Word was with God, and the Word was a god.' There is only one God in this statement.

If you go with the trinitarian rendering of John 1:1- 'the Word was with God, and the Word was God', then you have 2 God's. The 'God' with whom 'the Word' was with, and the Word who is also 'God'.

Trinitarians are thus polytheists, as their rendering of John 1:1 shows. Of course, trinitarian polytheist theology is unscriptural.
---David8318 on 8/24/11


If Elohiym is plural in substance, God is an it.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11

To put it correctly,

God is a THEM.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/11


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Jesus Christ was not the Son of God until His baptism, when His ministry began. His baptism signified His future death and resurrection.
---James_L on 8/24/11

Not so.

Lu 2:48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed, and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously."
49 And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?"

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


"Son of God" = physical description of who the Lord Jesus is to human-beings. Human-b.s can easily understand the meaning of SON. "Word of God" = is a spiritual description to human-b.s of what the Lord Jesus Christ is.
---Adetunji on 8/24/11


YAHUSHUA (JESUS) is both the Son of GOD and the Word of GOD. He is first and foremost the Son of GOD. He is the express Image of the Father. He is the Fulfillment of the Word of GOD. The "Word of GOD" and the "Son of GOD" do not mean the same thing, but, they are "Titles" that apply to the same Person (the Son of GOD).
---Gordon on 8/24/11


"Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD...." Warwick

The translation that you cite has replaced the Tetragrammaton, (YHWH), with LORD (Adhohn).

According to Brown-Driver-Briggs:

"[The name- YHWH] appears 6,828 times in the Biblia Hebraica...This number in itself is quite remarkable considering the name compared with titles given to God, namely: God (2,605), Almighty (48), Lord (40), Maker (25), Creator (7), Father (7), Ancient of Days (3) and Grand Instructor (2)."

"Lord", Adhohn or Adhonai, can be used by Children to their their fathers (Ge 24:9, 42:30) Even Sarah called her husband Lord (Ge 18:12).
---scott on 8/24/11


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Elohiym being a plural noun does not mean plural in substance. If it were plural it would be Elohiyms. Example Deut. 11:16-Take care lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods(elohiym) and worship them.. Notice it says them making Elohiym plural and translated gods. Why does it say "God(singular)said", verse 27- So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them. he and him are singular pronouns, meaning one person not multiple and that is why a singular noun is used. The prounoun determines if it is plural or singular. If Elohiym is plural in substance, God is an it.
---willa5568 on 8/24/11


"the word became flesh"-this word is Gods promise which now has been fulfilled since he was born. His preexistence is in Gods plan not as a person.
---willa5568 on 8/23/11

You should read Colossians 1 along with Hebrews 1. Both chapters contain rich information specifically about Christ.

What you would have read in Col 1 is this:

Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

Christ was the firstborn of all creation. He was begotten as the Son before the earth was formed.

His "Sonship" cannot start only after He was born to Mary.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/11


"David has nothing what Scott has when it comes to JW word-games." aka

It's called humor aka.

'hyu-mer'-

"The quality that makes something laughable or amusing, funniness. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor."

"The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd."
---scott on 8/24/11


Scott, we know Jesus, whom Thomas called "My Lord and My God", is Jehovah- "... This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness", (Jehovah Tsidkenu) Jeremiah 23:6.

Revelation ch.1 talks of Jesus' return "..every eye will see Him even those who pierced him vs.7. Jesus says '"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty"' vs.8

The same Jesus Peter called "our God and Savior.." 2 Peter 1:1

Jesus who is "in very nature God." Philippians 2:6

The same Jesus whose mortal enemies said of Him "...you a mere man claim to be God."

Yes we know who Jesus is.
---Warwick on 8/24/11


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Paul,
What I mean, the Word of God has always been with God, and has always been God. Is, was, and always will be.

The Word of God became flesh. He was not the Christ, or Jesus, until He became flesh. He was the Word of God.

Jesus Christ was not the Son of God until His baptism, when His ministry began. His baptism signified His future death and resurrection.

Because He suffered death, He became heir to the throne of God. He has not inherited the throne yet, but at that appointed time when His kingdom is established. Then He will be King of Kings

The man Jesus Christ, who was, and is, and is to come.

the Word from eternity (was)
the Christ from His birth (is)
the Son who becomes King (is to come)
---James_L on 8/24/11


JEHOVAH the original Hebrew would never have this, translated in our language
it would be written YHWH and pronounced YAHWEH or AHWAH (nobody is a hundred percent sure) so to make this an doctrinal arguement is
unwise.
or
shrewd.
i myself interuse both Yahweh and Jehowah i don't see any problem. since it isn't a name in the sense of JESUS. as Jesus is called IMMANUEL yet EMANUEL is not a name in the correct sense.
---andy3996 on 8/24/11


Aka, I believe you are right Scott is in a different league than David. Maybe he is even employed full-time by the WTS to draw Christians away from Biblical faith. He certainly is a wonder at word games.

Is he a criminal lawyer by training perhaps?
---Warwick on 8/24/11


Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is my name! I will not give my glory to another..

Jesus says "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 17:5

As God will not give His glory to another it was not gifted to God the Son, but is the glory He always shared with the Father by right, by being "in very nature God."

As God does not give His glory to another how could Jesus give God's glory to the disciples John 17:22?

The glory Jesus conferred upon the disciples was obviously not the glory God the Son shares with the Father, but the God-given glory of the human nature of Christ.

Scriprure does not contradict itself.
---Warwick on 8/24/11


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James, There is one thing clear in Scripture, "Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life. And we have believed and have known that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (John 6:68,69). But if Jesus is the Son of God merely by office or covenant title, or by virtue of His complete Person, where is the blessedness of that voice from heaven proclaiming Him the beloved Son of the Father? It would deceive us were it by name, not a reality, a title implying a relationship which did not actually exist. That is what many have, titles and offices but not the reality. It is a clear revelation made in Scripture that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, by nature. And if by nature, eternal.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/11


Warwick- you are a confused individual. The context of John 20:28 is as you state Thomas needing proof of Jesus' resurrection. Somehow you twist your argument to Jesus' identity.

The context of John 20:28 is not about Jesus' identity. Thomas, a worshiper of YHWH (Jehovah) already knew Jesus to be God's Son.

As I've said before, Thomas' remark 'my Lord and my God' may well have been said at the point of his realisation that Jesus had been resurrected. Thomas needed proof of Jesus' resurrection, not of who he was!

Ultimately, salvation does not depend on the sayings of the imperfect man Thomas. What is more important as you persistently ignore is Jesus' belief- 'I am ascending to my Father... and to my God.' John 20:17.
---David8318 on 8/24/11


Revelation says "And His NAME is called the WORD of God". WHO is that referring to? Jesus Christ. The Alpha and Omega, first and last, beginning and end. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

What I do find very STRANGE is accusing those who call HIM by His Rightful Name are accused of not believing in His Deity or that He is was and will always be eternal.

In the BEGINNING was the Word, an here in Revelation, in the END He is STILL the WORD.

Peter also tells us, the WORD of the Lord will endure FOREVER. We are also orn Again of the WORD. and we know that Born Again is having the Spirit of the Life of Christ in you.

OH, I could go on and on. Also Proverbs 8 "WISDOM", yep, that's Our Lord too!
---kathr4453 on 8/24/11


Warwick: //I wrote that I visited an asylum for the insane, and you ask " What do you mean by "visit"? //

David has nothing what Scott has when it comes to JW word-games.
---aka on 8/23/11


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having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son, today I have begotten you? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son?(Hebrews 1:3,4)

that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit(Matt. 1:20)

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, therefore(for this reason) the child to be born will be called holy- the Son of God(Luke 1:35)

"the word became flesh"-this word is Gods promise which now has been fulfilled since he was born. His preexistence is in Gods plan not as a person.
---willa5568 on 8/23/11


Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom, give ear unto the law of our God [Elohim], ye people of Gomorrah.

Isa 2:3 ...let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God [Elohim] of Jacob,...

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this, I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am I [(1)aniy]: and now the Lord GOD [(2)y hovah], and his Spirit [(3) ruach], hath sent me (refers to 1).
---aka on 8/23/11


"I am Jehovah, that is my name..." Is 42:8 ASV

"That men may know that Thou, Whose Name alone is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the Earth". Psalm 83:18
---scott on 8/23/11


//Who was God referring to in Gen when He said let us make man in our image?//

What word was used for God in Genesis when He said let us make man in our image?

Elohim - plural for those of the Divinity.
---aka on 8/23/11


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James

More to the point, are you saying Christ is the Son but only upon conception on earth.

And that Jesus was not always from the beginning with the Father.

Or that He has always been the Son from the foundation of the world.

Which is it?

Paul
---paul on 8/23/11


Scott, I wrote that I visited an asylum for the insane, and you ask " What do you mean by "visit"?

I was there to see two patients Scott and David.

Oxford Dictionary definition of 'name': 1 a word or set of words by which a person, animal, place, or thing is known, addressed, or referred.

I call Him God, Lord, Creator, Saviour, Redeemer. These are titles but by the Oxford definition, also names.

That you would try to make such a feeble point only illuminates your lack of real points.
---Warwick on 8/23/11


Paul,
the purpose o fthe question, or what I'm trying to accomplish:

This issue was being dragged through about 5 blog topics.

It has been touched on by you, me, Mark V, Andy3996, Kathr4453, and others.

I thought it would be best to have its own blog so we might have the opportunity to hash through it.

I am not trying to be allusive at all. I have tried to couple my thoughts with scripture, and it is very hard in 125 words.


David8318,
I don't mean to be a put off, but we've had Jehovah's Witness falshood dragged through about 20 blogs recently, and it would be nice to debate an issue without clouding it with heresy.
---James_L on 8/23/11


Again James, what is your point and what are you trying to accomplish.

You are very allusive and disorienting, what are you saying?

Jesus is the Son is not the Son which is it?

Paul
---paul on 8/23/11


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Son of G-d/Word of G-d. Do not mean the same thing, but Jesus was both.

He is scripture, The fulfillment of Scripture, and The ETERNAL Son of God.
---John on 8/23/11


"Thomas did not use God's name! Nonsense." Warwick

Where in the account of Thomas does he use God's Name? Perhaps you are unaware that 'God' and 'Lord' are not names but titles.

God's name is found just under 7,000 times in the OT. It is made up of 4 Hebrew characters- yod, hey, waw, hey (YHWH). It is most commonly translated (in English) as Jehovah.
---scott on 8/23/11


"I once visited an asylum for the insane." Warwick

What do you mean by "visit"? Just asking.
---scott on 8/23/11


Paul,
short answers

Who was God referring to in Gen when He said let us make man in our image? The Immortal God, the Word of God, the Spirit of God.

And who was in the furnace with the three Hebrew boys? Pre-incarnate Christ

What did the Father mean in Gen 3 when he was speaking to satan? Clarify??

And the three that bare record in Heaven? Not an original part of Scripture (1John 5:7) but there is no conflict, either.

Who was Jesus conversing with when He was speaking to the Father? Ummm, His Father?

I do not deny the deity of Christ, I affirm it.

But, Christ is the "heir" to the throne of God. He is not called King of Kings until Revelation 17.
---James_L on 8/23/11


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I feel that his blog is going fishing and I will be hooked no matter what I answer.

Fist, let me see if I understand the point of the question.

The question is "was Jesus the Son of God from eternity, or was Jesus the Word Of God and then became the Son of God?

I must use Heb 1 and Col 1 to say that my opinion is that Jesus was the Son of God from eternity.

Heb 1:2 "in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world"

Col 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together"
---Mark_Eaton on 8/23/11


David from another site, (just another in a long list where JW's were given the last say) you claim (John 20:28)Thomas did not use God's name! Nonsense.

The scene:

Thomas says he will not believe Jesus is alive unless he has physical proof.

Jesus stands before Thomas, offering such physical proof, and says-vs. 27 "Stop doubting and believe."

What is Thomas immediate and direct reaction to Jesus? vs. 28 To call Jesus "My Lord and My God"-Greek "The Lord of me and the God of me".

What is Jesus reaction to what Thomas says-vs. 29 "Because you have seen me you believe..." Believe what? That Jesus is Thomas' risen Lord and God.

Nothing else fits with the context.
---Warwick on 8/23/11


David, when a heretic cultist calls me a 'pervert' it does not hurt. In fact it is a compliment. In my work capacity I once visited an asylum for the insane. Near the entrance was a man dressed in a smock, perched in a tree like a bird. When I looked at him he said I was insane. Again a compliment considering who it came from.

The WTS article to which I referred only condemned improper touching during sexual relations between man and wife. It did not specify what constituted improper touching was so I asked. When I did so you called me a pervert! And continue to do so without having the manners to explain exactly what my perversion is!

Strange man!
---Warwick on 8/23/11


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