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False Teacher Tactics

There are many people who say the are sharing the Word of God, but when the preach they don't use a Bible. These people prance around, change the tone of their voices, and have music playing loud. These people use the subtle tactic of hypnosis on others. What are your thoughts?

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 ---Rob on 8/23/11
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"The LXX -YHVH - KYRIOS" Cluny 8/30/11 (2)


(6) LXXP.Oxy.VII.1007 (third century C.E.)

(7) AqBurkitt (end of the fifth century or the beginning of the sixth century C.E.)

(8) AqTaylor (after the middle of the fifth century C.E., but not later than the beginning of the sixth century C.E.)

(9) SymP.Vindob.G.39777 (third of fourth century C.E.)

(10) Ambrosian O 39 sup. (end of the ninth century C.E.)

These ten manuscript fragments indicate that the translators of the Hebrew text into Greek used the divine name where it occurred in the Hebrew text.
---scott on 8/31/11


"The LXX -YHVH - KYRIOS" Cluny 8/30/11 (1)

If I understand your point (and I may not):

Over the past several decades many fragments of ancient Greek versions of the Hebrew Scriptures have been discovered wherein the divine name was found written, usually in Hebrew letters. This indicates that the divine name was used in Greek versions until well into the ninth century C.E. Here are ten manuscripts that contain the divine name:

(1) LXXP.Fouad Inv. 266 (first century B.C.E.)

(2) LXXVTS 10a (first century C.E.)

(3) LXXIEJ 12 (first century C.E.)

(4) LXXVTS 10b (first century C.E.)

(5) 4Q LXXLevb (first century B.C.E.)

Continued
---scott on 8/31/11


The question is: When has or will your organization "come out against" the NIV because of the "lifestyle" of Dr. Marten Woudstra, the Chairman of the NIV OT Committee and NIV "Stylist" V. Mollenkott?
Indeed Many of our preachers point out this weakness in the NIV, do your preachers and teachers warn your members that GREBERS vieuws are "spiritist reeceived through demons? or do they keep using excuses. as said before in main doctrines most translations do not differ. except of course the new world translation who appears to be a translation out of this world.
---andy3996 on 8/31/11


Yes Scott, do refresh my memory about how long Watchtower used Greber's spiritualistic translation for, being fully aware that he had communed with demons. Was it 40 years?
---Marc on 8/31/11


"Come out against Greber's translation?" Marc

You shouldn't need an answer from me at all. You already know the answer because you have a "WHOLE article" in front of you that provides it, remember?

The question is: When has or will your organization "come out against" the NIV because of the "lifestyle" of Dr. Marten Woudstra, the Chairman of the NIV OT Committee and NIV "Stylist" V. Mollenkott?

Your silence on this repeated issue is deafening.
---scott on 8/31/11




Scott,

So exactly when did your organisation come out against Greber's translation?

I shouldn't expect an answer too soon!
---Marc on 8/31/11


just as the JW's claims they never where an affiliated organisation of the UNITED NATIONS. (is it the beast or the prostitute in your doctrine?) also now because the CRITIC, JW denies the affiliation with GREBER. a sad story when a religion canot be honest about their affiliations.
at least the other sects never denied their affiliations
---andy3996 on 8/31/11


"Greber"- Marc

Ahhhh, the vanishing "WHOLE article". Phhht gone just like that.

Greber was never one of Jehovah's Witnesses, he was at one time a Catholic Priest.

He had nothing to do with the NWT. He was one of many translators cited by the WTS.

In spite of the accusations against Dr. Marten Woudstra, the Chairman of the NIV OT Committee and NIV "Stylist" V. Mollenkott, I carry with me a copy of the NIV in my preaching work, along with the NWT. I do not agree with their "Lifestyle" choices, but there are aspects of their translation that I like.

The accuracy of Bible translation stands or falls on adherence to the original languages and their intrinsic meaning.
---scott on 8/30/11


Scott, as I have told you I have no problem calling God Jehovah, or Yahweh etc. I used Jehovah as that is what you insist He must be called. However your claim is without Biblical support.

In our church we sing numerous hymns where we call God Jehovah and that is fine by me. We call God Jesus, and Lord, and Yahweh, all fine with me. Do you imagine God gets in a fury over this, or does He look upon the heart, not the external forms? Why do you make such a fuss over something nonBiblical?

Maybe you have little of Spiritual importance in your life?

BTW I have never said you insist on any pronounciation! However regarding Jehovah, the options (for an English speaker) are somewhat limited.
---Warwick on 8/30/11


Scott,

If you wish to believe that Metzger's footnote ''It may be mentioned that English translations of Codex Bezae have been published by...Johannes Greber'' is communicating you a secret coded message that Metzger is recommending Greber's translation, then what can I say??!!
---Marc on 8/30/11




....when the preach they don't use a Bible. These people prance around, change the tone of their voices, and have music playing loud. These people use the subtle tactic of hypnosis on others. What are your thoughts?-----Blog Question

Leave them behind. These entertainers could be false. They have not been taught, or led by GOD to honor the prophets, who are Witnesses testifying truthfully to all things fulfilled by Christ.
Ask Christ, the only teacher for answers.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---Trav on 8/30/11


"You insist God's name is Jehovah." Warwick (1)

Perhaps you should pick one side of an argument and stick with it.

On one hand you're arguing that Jesus is Jehovah because the Messiah would be named "Jehovah is our righteousness", then you argue that Jehovah is not really God's name. Which is it?

Do you not stop and think about these things before hitting send?

My original comment to you was regarding your use of translations that have removed the divine name, YHWH (however it is pronounced) and replaced it with LORD almost 7,000 times. Even leaving YHWH untranslated, or the Hebrew tetragammaton in place would be better than the presumptuous removal that you are apparently comfortable with.
---scott on 8/30/11


"Insist" Warwick (2)

I have never "insisted" on any pronunciation (nor do Witnesses). This is about YHWH vs. LORD (Adoni) and translations that have replaced one with the other, literally changing the inspired word of God.

Additionally FYI:

In Japan Witnesses call God "Ehobah", Cantonese= "Yehowah", Maori= "Ihowa", Swahili= "Yehova", Awabkal= "Yehoa", Tahitian= "Iehova", Zulu= "uJehova", etc. All of course are appropriate.

If now you are arguing that Yahweh is preferred then we can expect to hear you pronounce lots of biblical names differently. Jehonadab is now Yehownadab. Jehonathan becomes Yehownathan, etc.,
---scott on 8/30/11


Scott,

The Watchtower, Feb 15, 1956 has a paragraph of quotes from Greber's own introduction to his NT setting out how he communicated with spirit beings. The article then describes the cover of it, discusses another quote from Greber, then WT says, ''Under this impression Greber endeavours to make his NT translation read very spiritualistic.''

Next paragraph then tries to water down Greber's spiritualism, more quotes from Greber's NT etc .

WT also requested additional copies of the Greber translation for its offices from the Greber Foundation, as well as quoting it 7 other time in other editions.

Did WT at that time speak against the Greber NT?
---Marc on 8/30/11


\\Jehowah is first found in the SEPTUAGINT (greek translation of the HEBREW PENTATEUCH, and was a compound name of YHWH and ADONAI. \\

Actually, only ONE ms of the LXX uses anything approaching "Jehovah".

All the others, as well as printed editions, render YHVH as KYRIOS.

\\that is why JEHOWAH is found in the early KJV because they translated then mostly from the GREEK SEPTUAGINT and USED the HEBREW as REFFERENCE\\

You've gotten it backwards. The KJV was translated from the HEBREW, with reference made to the LXX, Vulgate, and other versions.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/30/11


Scott, very tricky, par for the course with JW's.

I wrote "You insist God's name is Jehovah." Which is true.

I then wrote "Let us forget there is no Biblical support for this spelling or pronounciation..." You replied "Prove that I have insisted on this pronunciation." I have nothing to prove, I did not say that.Okalee Dokalee?

This is misdirection, an attempt to hide the fact you are unable to contradict what I wrote on 29/8.

Just as your answer of 26/8 was an attempt at misdirection, to take the 'eyes' away from what I posted on the same day.

Nothing but evasion by attempted misdirection. You have been well, and long, trained in the WTS Fool the Christians School.
---Warwick on 8/30/11


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Actually Jehowah is first found in the SEPTUAGINT (greek translation of the HEBREW PENTATEUCH, and was a compound name of YHWH and ADONAI. that is why JEHOWAH is found in the early KJV because they translated then mostly from the GREEK SEPTUAGINT and USED the HEBREW as REFFERENCE. NOW it's the oposite and we came to see that "the name" is the acronym YHWH instead. it is a technique however of some to focus on minor subjects to avoid the real question...
ARE YOU SAVED BY GRACE OR THROUGH WORKS AND FORMALISME.
in fact a very antichristian jewish document gives a doubtfull legend of the origins of Christ's power... naturally majority of Judaism doesnt accept this vieuw (i hope)
---andy3996 on 8/30/11


Scott, having been visited by countless JW's over the years (including last week) I am well aware how they spell and pronounce Jehovah. The pronounciation follows the spelling. Do you not pronounce it Je-ho-vah? There is no Scriptural basis for this spelling or pronounciation. Are you saying YHWH was pronounced Je-ho-vah? Is it not pronounced Yahweh?

I agree that YHWH appears in the OT but Jehovah is a name made up from this. Jehovah is not in the Bible.
---Warwick on 8/29/11


"I have the book." Marc

So do I, and I have quoted it accurately regarding the three translations of Codex Bezae, including Greber's, in it's footnote.

And something else that I have, exposes your next comment as clearly false.

"The Watchtower had a WHOLE article dedicated to Greber." Marc

In addition to Metzger's book I also have this particular WT article, and I can assure you that it is in no way an article about Greber. It has 42 paragraphs and Greber is only mentioned in Par 10.

So who is being "purposely misleading again"?

You have already said you wouldn't examine ("Parse") scriptures with me so apparently, this is what's left. Brilliant.
---scott on 8/29/11


"Insist God's name is Jehovah." Warwick

Prove that I have insisted on this pronunciation. This is false.

You posted: "Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is my name!..." 8/24/11

And I responded:

According to Brown-Driver-Briggs:

"[The name- YHWH] appears 6,828 times in the Biblia Hebraica...This number in itself is quite remarkable considering the name compared with titles given to God, namely: God (2,605), Almighty (48), Lord (40), Maker (25), Creator (7), Father (7), Ancient of Days (3) and Grand Instructor (2)."

Sarah called Abraham Lord (Ge 18:12).

God's name is not LORD.
---scott on 8/29/11


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"Hater of GOD"- Rob

So...I answer your question about "The name found in Psalm 111:9", (8/26/11) something that your studies in Hebrew should have revealed...

...and now you ask if I'm a "hater of God"?

A simple "Thank You" would have sufficed.
---scott on 8/29/11


You cannot teach the Word of God without using a Bible,for the scriptures are truly Gods words.If you go around trying to preach using your own interpretation of the Word,and do not teach directly from the Word,then it is not Gods teaching,but your teaching,that makes you a false teacher. Look at ezekiel 22.26.People who teach their own way just because theyre used to the customs and traditions of this world,they are not true teachers of the word,and you need to stay away from them.They do not teach the difference between the holy and the common.
---James on 8/29/11


fear,tradition,moral majority are the general tactics i have seen/heard used.
---kevin5443 on 8/29/11


Scott, a simply pathetic answer.

You contradict yourself.

You insist God's name is Jehovah. Let us forget there is no Biblical support for this spelling or pronounciation for the moment.

So "Jehovah" is God Almighty. However Jeremiah 23:6 says the coming Saviour's name is Jehovah. It doesn't say Jesus stands in God's stead (as per Moses in Exodus 4:16 which you say makes Moses God) but that His Name is Jehovah.

You would have us believe that in one instance the name Jehovah means God Almighty but then in another instance it doesn't mean God Almighty!

This obfuscation comes from having a starting point which holds that Jesus cannot be the God, no matter what Scripture says!
---Warwick on 8/29/11


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No, Scott, purposely misleading again!!

You claimed Metzger used Greber for support. False!! Metzger merely footnoted Greber translated the Bezae MS. I have the book.

However, Watchtower had a WHOLE article dedicated to Greber. Watchtower wrote, ''Very plainly the spirits in which ex-priest Greber believes helped him in his translation.'' (The Watchtower, 2/15/56 pp.110-111). Watchtower KNEW he communicated with demons and for 30 years used his John 1:1 ''a god'' as support for their heresy.

Crusades? Inquisitions? The wheels are falling off your bill-cart!!!
---Marc on 8/26/11


The Hebrew name Jehovah is generally translated in the AV by the word LORD printed in small capitals, to distinguish it from the rendering of the Hebrew _Adonai_ and the Greek _Kurios_, which are also rendered Lord, but printed in the usual type. The Hebrew word is translated "Jehovah" only in #Ex 6:3 Ps 83:18 Isa 12:2 26:4 and in the compound names mentioned below. It is worthy of notice that this name is never used in the LXX., the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Apocrypha, or in the New Testament. It is found, however, on the "Moabite stone" (q.v.), and consequently it must have been in the days of Mesba so commonly pronounced by the Hebrews as to be familiar to their heathen neighbours.

Easton's Bible dictionary
---leej on 8/26/11


"The Tetragrammaton...held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced..." leej

The key here is "later Jews", based on later Jewish tradition, even superstition, and probably a misapplication of Deut 20:7.

The divine name was commonly used by God's covenant people, the Jews, until unscriptural tradition got the better of them. But Christ told the Jewish religious leaders in his day:

"[you are] invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down, and you do many things such as that." Mark 7:13 NASB
---scott on 8/26/11


Warwick,

I've tried to make sense of your recent comments, weeding through the red herrings and insults, to find something that relates to what I've said to you.

In the end I will quote the wise sage Ned Flanders and just say:

Okalee Dokalee.
---scott on 8/26/11


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Scott, JW's can't have it both ways. In John 1:1 You say the first use of 'God' (with the definite article) means this is 'the God' and the second is 'a god', because it lacks the definite article.

However in 20:28 the definite article accompanies both Lord and God when referring to Jesus. But you say that does not mean He is 'the God.'

So in John 1:1 the presence of the definite article with God (theos) means this is 'the God' but the presence of the definite article before both Lord and God does not mean Jesus is the Lord and the God!

What cultic deceit this is!

BTW the NWT translation is contradicted by 17 major English Bible translations, on this Scripture. And many other Scriptures, of course.
---Warwick on 8/26/11


Yes, there are a lot of frauds and charlatans in the world.
---Eloy on 8/26/11


Lee of many names: "Usually those who really do not know the Bible use this verse to justify their obedience to certain laws found ONLY in the Old Testament."

Here's a good example of a False Teacher tactic! Getting past the the laughable contradiction that a person who uses scripture is the one who doesn't know the Bible, the claim that only New Testament repeats of the Old Testament are valid is an invalid assumption.
---jerry6593 on 8/27/11


Scott, the original languages which the Bible was written is Hebrew, Armaic, and Greek which I do study. I do this so I can know and understand scripture in the true context which it is written.

This cause me to ask if you are a hater of GOD, along with being a hater of HIS WRITTEN TRUTH.

I ask this because of the way you tend to distort, pervert, and avoid the truth, as it is written in GOD'S WORD, Romans 1:25.
---Rob on 8/27/11


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Did God really write that law onto believers heart?

The verse in context speaks of a covenant DIFFERENT from the one made with Israel coming out of Egypt.
---leej on 8/26/11


The interesting thing is they are written by GOD. The individual bearing them....carries the responsibility and recognition honor of them.

Some not recognizing them, might spurn even the thought that GOD could implace his "New" version in a physical mind or spirit of heart.
I've seen this verse, ignored. Made jest of etc. Imagine if you can the lack of faith.
---Trav on 8/27/11


Scott, devious!

Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and My God'John 20:28

The Lord says Jesus name is Jehovah Our Righteousness Jeremiah 23:6

Peter calls Jesus "our God and Savior Jesus Christ..." 2 Peter 1:1

But you will not accept the obvious, that Jesus is God!

However in Exodus 4:16 The Lord is speaking to Moses and says "as if you were God to him.", And this you say makes Moses God! This is feeble, even for you.

Gills Exposition of the Bible says "Aaron was to stand between Moses and the people, and speak for him, and Moses was to stand between God and Aaron, and in God's stead.." That is Moses was acting on God's behalf.
---Warwick on 8/26/11


Scott, wrong again.

The Lord says Jesus name is Jehovah Our Righteousness

Of course Jehovah's righteousness is expressed and accomplished through the Messiah.. simply because the Messsiah is Jehovah Our Righteousness.

From Gill's Exposition of the Bible " he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, because he is the author of righteousness to his people, and is only so, no creature could be the author of it, unrighteous man cannot be the author of righteousness, and the righteousness of an angel is of no advantage to man,.."
---Warwick on 8/26/11


//We know from Jeremiah 31:33, and Hebrews 10:16 that God has put His laws in our hearts and in our minds.

Usually those who really do not know the Bible use this verse to justify their obedience to certain laws found ONLY in the Old Testament.

If they knew better they would realize their position can be totally ridiculous.

One such OT law is in De. 25:5-8 which states one must take his deceased brother's wife if he left no offspring.

Did God really write that law onto believers heart?

Be careful as you may get stuck with your deceased brother's wife or maybe even end up with more than one wife.

The verse in context speaks of a covenant DIFFERENT from the one made with Israel coming out of Egypt.
---leej on 8/26/11


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Scott, apparently you are under the misapprehension that I am not happy to use Jehovah. I am, full aware that there is no Biblical basis for pronouncing or writing YHWH (a Biblical name for God), as Jehovah.

But you are obsessed by it.
---Warwick on 8/26/11


Jehovah =The special and significant name (not merely an appellative title such as Lord [adonai]) by which God revealed himself to the ancient Hebrews #Ex 6:2,3 This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place. Whenever this name occurred in the sacred books they pronounced it, as they still do, "Adonai" (i.e., Lord), thus using another word in its stead.

Easton's Bible Dictionary
---leej on 8/26/11


We know from Jeremiah 31:33, and Hebrews 10:16 that God has put His laws in our hearts and in our minds.
---Warwick on 8/25/11

Ruling clarification on Heb 8:10, Jer 31:33:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:

And so he did, and it can been found to be as he said.

Just can't find a denom attached anywhere though...other than Israel. Ruling with EL.

Some want to rule using his name, some want to rule by the power of his officers names.
GOD rules with who he decides to rule with. Not the other way around.
---Trav on 8/26/11


I myself am leery of those preaching ecumenicalism because there is only ONE way to God through Jesus Christ. To say other religions have their own way to God is of the anti-christ. The bible says to come out and be ye separate.
---Jason1072 on 8/26/11


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"The name found in Psalm 111:9". Rob

If by "name" you mean "Beth", this is the 2nd letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Notice verse 1 where you'll find "Aleph", the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Verse 17 has "Gimel" the 3rd Heb letter, etc.

Psalm 119 is an acrostic psalm where succeeding sections begin with succeeding letters of the Hebrew alphabet.

If you look at the Hebrew text you will find that Verses 1 - 8 all begin with Aleph. Verse 9 - 16 with the letter Beth. Apparently some translations inform the reader of this by inserting the word "Beth".

Then verses 17 - 24 all begin with Gimel, and so on.

Hope this helps.
---scott on 8/26/11


"Greber"- Marc

Zzzzzz

Again- Greber's translation was cited in reference to his textual treatment of several verses. There was no endorsement of Greber's lifestyle, religion or politics.

Is Metzger also a 'demon lover' for citing Greber? Take your time...I'll wait.

The WTS has also cited the NIV numerous times but without commenting on the controversy surrounding the "lifestyle" (the moderators prefer that I am not more specific) of the Chairman of the NIV OT Translation Committee or Mollenkott.

Shockingly the WTS has cited all of the translations of the Catholic church in spite of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.

(Psssst- They've know about that for over 100 years).
---scott on 8/26/11


"In Genesis God is called Elohim, the plural of majesty which intimates the Trinity." Warwick

There is no scriptural basis for such a wild conclusion. And to my knowledge, no Hebrew scholar (commenting on the 'plural of majesty') has suggested such a thing.

If Elohim "intimates the Trinity" how do you explain that Moses was called Elohim...by the Almighty himself? Ex 7:1 (Likewise angels and Judges were even referred to as 'Elohim'.

Not sure you're really thinking your comments through to any logical conclusion, let alone a scriptural one.
---scott on 8/26/11


"The Lord says"- Warwick (2)

Jer 23:7 "Therefore...days are coming, saith Jehovah, that they shall no more say, [As] Jehovah liveth, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt,

23:8 but, [As] Jehovah liveth, who brought up and who led back the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries... And they shall dwell in their own land."

23:36 "...For every man's own word shall be his burden: for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of Jehovah of hosts, our God."

Jehovah's righteousness is expressed and accomplished through the Messiah that he 'raised up' and sent for mankind's benefit.
---scott on 8/26/11


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"The Lord says"- Warwick (1)

Irony alert.

Read the account using a translation (ASV, DBY) that has not replaced YHWH with 'LORD'.

Jer 23:1 "Woe unto the shepherds that destroy...! saith Jehovah."

23:2 "Thus saith Jehovah...Ye have scattered my flock..saith Jehovah."

23:4 "I will set up shepherds...they shall fear no more...saith Jehovah."

23:5 "Behold...saith Jehovah, I will raise unto David a righteous Branch..."

23:6 "Judah shall be saved...and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness." (IS our righteousness" ESV, RSV)

Jerusalem Bible-"Yahweh-is-our-Saving-Justice."
---scott on 8/26/11


Scott you wrote. "Why has the bible translation that you use removed it?" In reality the name Jehovah never was in the Bible. God's actual name is YHWH which as anyone can see has no vowels. There is no consensus on how it should be pronounced. If you wish to pronounce it Jehovah you are welcome to do so. However others say it should be Yahweh.

At any rate God says He is concerned with the heart of man, not his slavish obedience to works.
---Warwick on 8/26/11


Scott, what about the name found in Psalm 111:9?
---Rob on 8/26/11


Scott, The Lord says the coming Saviours name will be Jehovah Our Righteousness. Therefore Jehovah alone is not His only name.

In Genesis God is called Elohim, the plural of majesty which intimates the Trinity.

Is He not also called El-Shaddai (God Almighty), El-Elyon, and El-Olam, amongst other names?
---Warwick on 8/25/11


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"Apparently you believe we can only call Him Jehovah!" Warwick

There are, perhaps, many names that you have been called but my guess is that your birth certificate or passport reveals the one name given to you by your parents.

Similarly, from a scriptural perspective, the Almighty has many titles, but one name that he has given himself and it is recorded in His inspired word almost 7,000 times (more than all other titles combined) and it is YHWH, Jehovah, Yahweh...however we chose to pronounce it.

The real question is:

Why has the bible translation that you use removed it?
---scott on 8/25/11


Of course, if you know you're being hypnotized, it isn't very subtle, is it. If you don't like it, leave.
---Blogmeister on 8/25/11


KarenD, that is fair enough.

But I also would like to add unless you are in you 90's or 100's, I don't think you are old enough to be my mother. (smile).
---Rob on 8/25/11


Scott, you appear to be saying that it is incorrect to call our God Jehovah Our Righteousness. Apparently you believe we can only call Him Jehovah!

Likewise you would have us believe we cannot call Him Jehovah-Jireh, (Jehovah Our Provider) that it is only a place name (Genesis 22:13,14). However why did Abraham so name it? Because this place literally is Jehovah Our Provider? No because Jehovah was his provider, as He is our provider. Therefore it is correct to call Him Jehovah-Jireh.

Likewise Jeremiah calls Jerusalem Jehovah Our Righteousness, not because it is Jehovah Our Righteousness (as is Christ) because that was the place where God's Righteousness dwelt.
---Warwick on 8/25/11


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Scott,

Your wheels are falling off. Greber's [mis]translation was used to support the Watchtower's Arian belief that Jesus is a creature. Watchtower had COMPLETE knowledge he and his wife were spiritual mediums and that the demons assisted his translation and yet they still over nearly FOUR decades used his work.

Why do you resist this FACT?
---Marc on 8/25/11


Rob....Don't you worry your pretty little head about me. I'm old enough to be your mother and have seen all the tricks of satan.
---KarenD on 8/25/11


Neither my wife nor I take God's name in vain. For some unknown reason(?TV) my 3 y.o. has begun saying''My God!''. It's sounds very strange.

David believes Thomas was doing what my son is doing. Why? John wrote that Thomas SAID TO Jesus ''My God!'' and David's Arian Johnny-come-lately heresy demands Thomas can't be saying that ABOUT Jesus (i.e. Jesus IS Thomas' God). Rather Thomas is just exclaiming the word 'God' as a reaction to Jesus' resurrection. Isn't this taking God's name in vain?

David castigates me for proof-texting Thomas' words. Quite odd since Jesus praised Thomas for his comment. Heretics like David pick and choose Scripture because their earthly masters demand it...or you're out of the organisation.
---Marc on 8/25/11


'The NIV and Dr. Virginia Mollenkott- 'Stylistic consultant". Marc

I never said that she was an NIV translator.

However, Greber was not used in any capacity (consultant, translator or otherwise) of the NWT as was Mollenkott.

And again, her book, 'Sensuous Spirituality', discusses her spirit guide, contact with her dead mother, using Tarot cards and I Ching.

Greber's translation was, again, simply listed along with other versions which similarly translated Jn.1:1.
---scott on 8/25/11


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You're absolutely right Rob. "These people" use socio-psychological manipulation to convince, mesmerize & get poor souls to do their bidding. These hard sell, "roaring" false prophets (more like profits ~ whether in pulpits, on tv, radio, internet) personify their father, the devil! They specifically prey upon the weak (physically, emotionally, economically & functionally illiterate).

"Be sober, be vigilant ~ because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour..." (1 Pt. 5:8)
---Leon on 8/25/11


"Intentionally misleading" Marc

The English version of Greber's translation (of Codex Bezae), is noted in a monograph of one of biblical studies' most eminent New Testament text critics, Bruce M. Metzger.

See Metzger's "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration" (3rd enlarged edition, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992) p. 50 n.


Maybe the devil made him do it.
---scott on 8/25/11


Scott says Watchtower stopped using Greber from 4/1/1983, yet they knew he was a medium in 1956 (WT, 2/15/56).

WT also used Greber to support their doctrine that Jesus is a creature in The WT, 9/15/62 p. 554, 10/15/75 p. 640, 4/15/76, 231, & Correspondence to Greber Memorial Foundation 12/20/80.

Scott, your argument is intentionally misleading.
---Marc on 8/25/11


Scott wrote: ''The NIV used Dr. Virginia Mollenkott as a consultant throughout its creation. Her book, Sensuous Spirituality, discusses her spirit guide, contact with her dead mother, using Tarot cards and I Ching''

The real facts: She was a stylistic consultant, not translator, for the NIV in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Mollenkott says ''[my] job was simply to make sure the translation would communicate clearly to modern American readers, and the style was as smooth and understandable as possible.'' Her Sensuous Spirituality came out afterwards in 1982.

Contrast this with the Watchtower's knowledge that Greber communicated with demons, yet they still used his translation for supporting their belief that Jesus is a creature.
---Marc on 8/25/11


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Scott,

After quoting favourably and extensively from Greber's introduction to his demonically-inspired translation, Watchtower leaders wrote, ''Very plainly the spirits in which ex-priest Greber believes helped him in his translation.'' (The Watchtower, 2/15/56, vol.LXXVII, no. 4, pp.110-111)

In a letter to Greber Memorial Foundation from The Watchtower, dated 12/20/80 (Reference: EG:ESF), thanking the Memorial for a gift of his NT and 'Communication with the Spirit World of God', Watchtower wrote ''we wonder about the possibility of obtaining a few additional copies of The New Testament.''

Still love them demons, Scott?
---Marc on 8/24/11


Thanks for the info, andy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/11


Cluny The Staten vertaling is the dutch translation ordered by the state "to provide a trustworthy translated bible. it was translated 16th 17th century and is often compared with the English KJV.
before that we only had bible translated from translations who really wher of no good quality.
---andy3996 on 8/24/11


JWs,

Jesus always had Father's glory, hes ''God manifested in flesh'' (1 Tim 3:16), has Father's essence (Philippians 2:6). Father's glory existed in him before world's creation (John 17:5). Father's glory gifted to Jesus because he fulfilled Abrahamic promise (Isaiah 42, John 17:22). Jesus' glory to disciples was to reflect the oneness of Jesus and Father (John 17:22).

Watchtower dystheology orders its followers to believe an angel, a creature, embodies Father's essential nature, and this angel served as surrogate creator (Colossians 1:16). This belief is borrowed from Plato where another creates for God. It's pagan and early Church fought against this heresy when first appearing late in third century.
---Marc on 8/24/11


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\\many cannot afford insurance but pastors can afford benefits & drive luxury cars.
what hypocrisy\\

This might be said about a few pastors of megachurches, but it is not the general rule.

And it's certainly not true for Orthodox clergy, when many have to have secular jobs to support themselves and their families.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/11


\\1247 bibleverses from the STATEN, and tells the truth.\\

What is a "Staten"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/11


I have notice that when it comes to money pastors will quote 1 tim 5:17-18 for they deserve THEIR PAY but when you are struggling & in need of financial help pastors will quote the 'my grace is sufficient'.
sunday school teachers work for free but pastors should be paid.
many cannot afford insurance but pastors can afford benefits & drive luxury cars.
what hypocrisy.
when money comes into the church it is business. but when money goes out it is faith.
---mike on 8/24/11


??? mass hypnosis ???
??? mass hystery ???when you look at foundations of someone's faith you discover truth, not in physical manifestations as discribed. i know a preacher, never goes to church with her bible, but she can quote faultlessly 1247 bibleverses from the STATEN, and tells the truth.
some false teachers donot need any of these, they just say that all the others are wrong and that they ALONE KNOW THE TRUTH...
as consequense WHOEVER DOES NOT FELLOWSHIP THEIR WAY IS CONDEMNED TO HELL AND DISSASTER.
OTHERS JUST SELL CHRIST TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER, with no sanctification involved .MOSTLY they lie only 25% or less. very easy in the era of individualism, where everyone thinks he knows best.
---andy3996 on 8/24/11


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KarenD, with all due respect. I must say ignorance is DANGEROUS.

If you truly don't know who these people are, who they serve, what they are about, and the tactics they use, you are in A VERY, VERY, VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION!

Those people who are ignorant of GOD'S TRUTHS AS THEY ARE WRITTEN IN HIS WORD, are the very people, these people PREY ON!

I guarantee you will never hear these people teach/preach from 2 Corinthians Chapter Eleven, or Second Peter Chapter Two.

KarenD, PLEASE do not allow yourself to be one of the VICTIMS these people PREY ON!
---Rob on 8/23/11


My thoughts are:

STOP WATCHING TV PREACHERS
and
STOP LISTENING TO RADIO PREACHERS

Be a Berean. Learn the Word for yourself.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/23/11


\\There are many people who say the are sharing the Word of God, but when the preach they don't use a Bible\\

Do you mean they do not refer to the Bible during their addresses?

Or they don't stand there with an open Bible or holding one?

The second is hardly necessary. How did the Apostles preach from the Bible, as the NT had not been written?

Furthermore, the ability to quote long strings of verses is no sign one is sharing the Word of God. The only ones who ever quoted the Scripture to Jesus were Satan and Pharisees.

\\These people use the subtle tactic of hypnosis on others. \\

What you describe would not be hypnosis (which needs quiet surroundings), but cheerleading.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/11


Unfortunately the loud noise and lack of Biblical teachings is something all too often found in churches that emphasize 'contemporary' worship services.

All too often they try to sing songs that have 4 verses but seven times or even more.

Yes, I would also vote that we run from them.
---leej on 8/23/11


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The Bible talks about this in:

Micah 2:6-13 and Timothy 4:4

People want to HEAR what "Tickles Their Ears" and they love to SEE what is "Pleasing To Their Eyes".

Prophets, Teachers, Pastors, etc. that use these tactics are often Popular, and In Demand, according to Church advertisements.

While it is certainly possible to teach what is in the Bible using these tactics, a lot seems to be more Wordly Entertainment than Gospel. From my own experiences.

Jesus didn't need to use any of these Circus Dramas when he was preaching. Hmmm.
---Sag on 8/23/11


What are my thoughts? Run from them and stay away from them completely.

What about the ones who aren't as obvious that they are false teachers? How do you tell which ones are false? and which ones are teaching truth?
---anon on 8/23/11


Who are "these people" to whom you are referring????
---KarenD on 8/23/11


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