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Justification An Event

Is justification a once and for all event or does it just count for past sins?

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 ---leej on 8/24/11
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Jim, I know exactly what repent means, else I would not be born-again. And I do not keep changing my mind, for I have no need to repent from any sin which is nonexistent, for I have the mind of Christ and I live daily in righteousness, and not in sin nor in repeating sin. And I have no wonder if I have any unrepented sin, for I know full well that I am consecrated and sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit with signs following, and there is no place pernitted for sin.
---Eloy on 8/31/11


Amen....mima
---JIM on 8/30/11


Eloy..I'm sorry, but i see that you really don't know wat it means to repent.
Let me ask you this. Do you keep changing your mind or keep turning away from a sin that you repeat?
It must be very difficult to go through life wondering if you have sin that you did not (repent of)turn away from and not having enough faith in Jesus that His death was enough to pay the price for your sin.
---JIM on 8/30/11


Which is to suggest that everyone had better be perfect when Jesus returns...... really?
---CraigA on 8/30/11


"No unrepented sin is, nor can ever be, forgiven."
---Eloy on 8/30/11

The above statement does several things.
1. It condemns the author for no human being can even remember all of their sins.
2. It has a chilling limiting effect on the powers of Almighty God.
3. A close story of the Samaritan woman at the well story will prove repentance is not necessary for salvation to be granted.
4. The most important repentance and a person can engage in is the changing of one's mind about who the Lord Jesus Christ is.
---mima on 8/30/11




Eloy, Jesus was made sin for us, No where does it say He was made repented sin for us.

Shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound? God forbid, don't YOU KNOW your old man was crucified with Christ. Not just our repented sin was crucified with Christ, or only part of our old man.

ALL SIN, past present and future is dealt with when we are crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


Eloy...I hope you understand this.
Christ entered Heaven once to appear for us in Gods presence. He does not have to keep offering Himself again and again the way the high priest use to in the most holy place.Otherwise Jesus would have to suffer all over again.By His sacrifice He did away with sin.Christ sacrificed once to take away the sins on many(those who believe). Heb.9:24-28
---JIM on 8/30/11


Eloy........Col.2:13-15
---JIM on 8/30/11


Jim, you err. Only the sins that are repented of, can and are forgiven. period. No unrepented sin is, nor can ever be, forgiven.
---Eloy on 8/30/11


Haz27. Yes, based on what you are saying that our NEW MAN cannot sin, and that new man is a new creature IN Christ, aren't we now under the Law of Liberty? If one actually know teh depth of this law, it's actually harder to keep than the 10 commandments.

The Law said an Eye for an Eye, the Law of Liberty says...turn the other cheek, etc.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11




Warwick:
You judge people are NOT Christians based on breaking 10 commandments.

As all professing Christians break 10 commandments in some way during their life I guess that makes them imposters.
Remember, even looking at women lustfully is transgression.
And what about those who have divorced and married another?
As James2:10 says, "if you offend in ONE point, you are guilty of all".

But, consider God's love for the world. God is love. 1Cor13 even describes Him. And He asks us to forgive one another 7x70.

But you suggest God is less forgiving than He wants us to be.
Your doctrine implies that once we've been forgiven coming to Christ, God no longer forgives 7x70 for breaking 10 commandments.
---Haz27 on 8/30/11


Warwick, You are suppose to have the Spirit of the law in your heart and mind, yet you sin yourself. So are you saying since you sin, who have the laws in your heart, you are lost? That is what you are suggesting. Again a salvation by works. You cannot escape from your own bondage. You want to force works into salvation. And no matter how you put it you don't want to leave the external law behind and enter into internal grace of Christ.
You are not dumb, you know the truth, You know all sin, why insist on works?
Here is why, because of Saturday Sabbath. Otherwise you would never even mention the law, because you already know the Truth. So there is a purpose. It cannot be to stop people from sinning, since you cannot do that.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11



---Haz27 on 8/29/11
Do you not think it would be better to ask yourself those questions?
Ask yourself has Haz27 offended MORE than once, hence guilty of ALL

"So speak ye and so do, as they that will be judged by the law of liberty"
---francis on 8/30/11


Mark, if we have Gods Law imprinted upon out hearts and minds surely we will not be Lawless. I contend that if we claim to be saved (therefore having the internal Law) but disobey God's moral Law (as opposed to ceremonial law) but nonetheless live Lawless lives we are hypocrites. Not Christians at all.

My question is: Can we willingly, purposefully disobey God's moral Law (which includes the 10 Commandments) and still claim we are Christians?

Note that I am not saying such obedience bought our forgiveness as this was Jesus' gift. I am saying that such obedience shows whether we truly love the Lord our God, with all our heart, soul and mind.

James (2:13) says we are going to be judged by the law that brings freedom.
---Warwick on 8/29/11


Francis:
Agreed, the law is perfect. Perhaps you missed my quoting Rom8:3 that the law was WEAK through the flesh.

You claim that we are saved by grace but if we do not comply with 10 commandments we are not Christians.

As the law is SPIRITUAL (Rom7:14), how well do SDA's comply with it? Perfectly?

Remember James2:10
"Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE point, he is guilty of all".

I know many SDA's and I know they have offended MORE than once, hence guilty of ALL (including Sabbath).
Your doctrine says they are NOT Christians.

Interesting that you don't quote James2:12.
"So speak ye and so do, as they that will be judged by the law of liberty"
---Haz27 on 8/29/11


//Lee, I am not an Adventist and don't attend an Adventist church. Clear?

What is clear is much of your theology matches theirs. Are you then simply one that belongs to another Sabbaterian group.

//I asked you: "please tell me which Adventist here has said Sabbath observance is necessary for salvation."

See my previous posts! While Adventists do not tell us Sabbath obverance is necessary for salvation, their Investigative Judgment doctrine states that in order to qualify for eternal salvation,one has to acquire a level of holiness and to do that, one must observe the 10 commandments.

In short, they tell us one is saved by grace alone, but you have to earn it like any other free gift.
---leej on 8/29/11


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Lee, the Barnes quote says is well, the law written on our hearts and minds is not a new law but one internal with new strength allowing us to resist temptation. But we don't always live up to the potential, do we.

My question was: Can Christians willingly have a lifestyle which flouts the Law which God has put in our hearts and in our minds?"

Your correct answer should have been a simple no!

If a person claims to be Christian, therefore having the new internal law, but intentionally lives lawlessly then they are no Christian.

Jesus says all the Law and the prophets are summed up in loving God with all our hearts and souls and minds, and loving our fellow man. Can Christians reject what He says?
---Warwick on 8/29/11


kathr you're correct saying "Keeping the LAW never CHANGED anyone"

But remember the law (being spiritual, Rom 7:14)was "weak through the flesh" Rom8:3.

As for being sinless, you've seen the many scriptures I've quoted where God says believers cannot sin and we are righteous as opposed to being sinners.

As for the fellowship of his sufferings/being made conformable to his (1Pet4:1), I believe we have done this. Our old man is crucified with him Rom6:6.
---Haz27 on 8/29/11


why do you think God would expect that you can comply with it now in the flesh when it failed the first time.
---Haz27 on 8/29/11

First of all There was NOT a problem with THE LAW.
Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them,

FAULT IS WITH MAN not God's law

Second are you sugesting that Jesus DOES EXPECT US TO
1. worship other gods.
2. worship idols.
3. misuse God's name.
4. Not keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Dishonor our father & mother.
6. Murder.
7. Commit adultery.
8. Steal.
9. Lie.
10. Covet.

GOD FORBID
---Francis on 8/29/11


warwick - unlearned.

Barnes: [The old law could be broken, to remedy this God gives, not a new law, but a new power to the old law. It used to be a mere code of morals, external to man, and obeyed as a duty. In Christianity, it becomes an inner force, shaping mans character from within.]

The law here is moral law, not ceremonial - civic laws given only to Israel.

//Can Christians willingly have a lifestyle which flouts the (moral) Law which God has put in our hearts and in our minds?"

No, because when one become a Christians, he acquired a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17) that abhors sin. And we come under His loving discipline much like a father to a child. Hebrews 12.
---leej on 8/29/11


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Eloy..you say:"it is not given for any future sin that has not been committed not repented of".
Eloy.....I'm sure that you are aware that Jesus paid the price for your sins. How many of your sins were in the future, seeing as you were not born until 2000 yrs later.
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us.
---JIM on 8/29/11


Haz27, question, You say you are sinless correct? Is that because the LAW is now being kept in you to a perfect T.

Interestingly enough Keeping the LAW never CHANGED anyone

Being changed from Glory to glory by the Spirit of Christ, in 2 Cor 3 never says we are being changed by keeping the 10 commandments by His Spirit.

The power of His resurrection in us is above and beyond anything we could possibly ask or think according to His Power that works in us.

To know the Height debth length and width of and to grow up into the fullness and stature of Christ, is beyond the 10 commandmants. This comes through the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/11


I see some on here do not fully appreciate or understand the freedom we have in Christ. People try so hard to muddy up the gospel. For unless you change and become as little children you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
---JIM on 8/29/11


romans 3:19-29 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guiltybeforeGod.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: by the law is the knowledge of sin.But now therighteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (...--...)By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
---andy3996 on 8/29/11


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Warwick:
Considering your previous comments that failure to comply with 10 commandments as a lifestyle means a person is not Christian, I ask the following question.

Firstly God says:
Rom8:2 "we are made FREE from the law of sin and death"
Rom7:6 "NOW we are DELIVERED from the law"

So if God set us free/delivered us from the law because it could not work in that it was WEAK through the flesh (Rom8:3), why do you think God would expect that you can comply with it now in the flesh when it failed the first time.

Remember the law is SPIRITUAL (Rom7:14) so our spiritual man does them naturally.






---Haz27 on 8/29/11


Cluny said:
"Justified = Just as if we never sinned.
Oh, yes. I remember this bit of bumper sticker theology from my Baptist days...."

Rom 8:10 "If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness".

Rom 6:17,18 "we WERE servants of sin", but now we're "servants of righteousness".

1Pet 4:18 "If the righteous are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?"

Cluny, either your a new creation, righteous in Christ OR you're a sinner. God describes 2 different groups in scriptures.
Righteous OR sinner.
Sheep OR goats.
Wheat OR tares.
Do you really label yourself a sinner?
---Haz27 on 8/29/11


Lee, evasion!

Matthew 22:37-40 "Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" Jesus here says the whole Law is encompassed by these two commandments.

We know from Jeremiah 31:33, and Hebrews 10:16 that God has put His laws in our hearts and in our minds.

Barnes' notes on the Bible say "not a new law, but a new power to the old law."

My question: Can Christians willingly have a lifestyle which flouts the Law which God has put in our hearts and in our minds?"
---Warwick on 8/29/11


Warwick, Concerning your question about the law in a persons heart, Heb. 8:10 tellls us the reason. By its nature, the Covenant of law was primarly external. It was a Covenant of obedience. There was no salvation through that Covenant. But the New Covenant is internal. The law in our hearts and minds is the Spirit of the Law, Christ Spirit, who is the Spirit of the Law in believers.
"In that He says, "A New Covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" Soon after the book of Hebrews was written, the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and it's Levitical worship ended. (v. 9:1-10) speaks of ordinances from (v.1) and closing with (v.10).
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


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Mark_V:
I agree that we should not be judgemental and condemn others to hell. None of us in the flesh are able to perfectly obey the law, even the legalists fail.
Fortunately our old man was crucified.

But we are a now a new creation man hence we should not regard each other according to the flesh (2Cor 5:16).
This is were legalists falter in that they cant see past the flesh and judge/condemn others.

But we are sanctified and perfected through the one offering of the body of Jesus Christ (Heb10:10,14).

The glorification comes later.

We are holy as he is holy, because if the root (Jesus) is holy, the branches are also holy Rom 11:16.

Our Christian walk you spoke of is the walk of faith.
---Haz27 on 8/29/11


Warwick //So my question to you is: The law which is upon our hearts, and in our minds does this not include what was commanded and which was condemned in the 10 Commandments?

The only law the Lord has put into the hearts of believers is the one that fulfills the law, namely to believe in the name of our Lord Jesus whom He has sent, and to love ones neighbor. Romans 13:10, 1 John 3:23.

The 10 commandments involves one law given ONLY to the Jewish nation and was a sign of that covenant God made with Israel when they came out of Egypt. It is obvious since there is no Sabbath command in the New Testament which depicts the New Covenant.

Are you a Sabbatherian? Probably on the edge of falling into that pit called legalism.
---leej on 8/28/11


Its a done deal!
BUT>>> HERE's THE PROBLEM TODAY....

Way too many so-called "Christians" use the "I'm saved by Grace" as an excuse to be lazy.

IT GOES>>

"I'm not under the law. I'm saved by grace." So now I can go on and sit on the couch all day, watch TV! Drive my unoffensive Buick and just "ACT" nice. That means I'm saved.

NO SANCTIFICATION AT ALL!!!(Except ofcourse making potato salad at Potluck)

NOW CONTRAST THE APOSTLES...

When they converted to Christ.. ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE AND THEIR LIVES WERE ABSOLUTE HORROR ENDING IN TORTURE AND DEATH.

But hey you do make good potato salad.

Where's that Remote? American Idol is on. "Cnristian"?
---John on 8/27/11


Rhonda, your claims are false. You say,
"not one word in Holy Scripture abolishes Gods Holy LAWS although lying counterfeit christianity teaches their sheep they all have a license to sin "in" their christ 2Corin 4:11"
First, you admit to be a heretic, who opposes the Christian faith. Second, no one here has claimed they have a license to sin but you. Third,
2 Cor 4:11 refers to the potential physical death constantly faced by those who represented Christ. Our mortal bodies" is another term for Paul's humanness (v.10:, 5:3). Paul faced death every day, yet he was willing to pay that price if it meant salvation for those to whom he preached (Phil. 2:17, Col. 1:24, 2 Tim. 2:10).
---Mark_V. on 8/28/11


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Past only. Jesus showed the separation of past and future sins in His remarks to the adulteress:

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

If you want license to sin in the future, you can buy indulgences from the Catholic Church (if they haven't run out), but I doubt that Jesus would respect them.
---jerry6593 on 8/28/11


\\JIM said: "Justified = Just as if we never sinned.\\

Oh, yes. I remember this bit of bumper sticker theology from my Baptist days.

The pastor loved to preach this slogan.

His wife later divorced him for adultery.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


forgiveness, or being freed, is granted when repentance for the particular sin is completed, it is not given for any future sin that has not been committed not repented of. There is no such thing as automatic immunity given to anyone whom chooses to do sin, for God is not mocked, for whatsoever a person sows, that is what the person will reap.
---Eloy on 8/26/11


God Almighty only justify those who are elected into His covenant of Grace. And only those who are elected will receive His precious gift call FAITH. Because without FAITH no one can please God. Which is to say that outside of receiving His gift of FAITH no sins will be forgiven. And when the sinner repents, God will most definitely forgive the sinner of his sin and turn him to His Son Jesus Christ because of His gift of FAITH.
---christan on 8/27/11


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Lee, I am not an Adventist and don't attend an Adventist church. Clear?

I asked you: "please tell me which Adventist here has said Sabbath observance is necessary for salvation."

As you have avoided an answer I take it you know none has!

I have another question. First a little explanation:

We know from Jeremiah 31:33, and Hebrews 10:16 that God has put His laws in our hearts and in our minds.

Barnes' notes on the Bible say "not a new law, but a new power to the old law."

So my question to you is: The law which is upon our hearts, and in our minds does this not include that which was commanded and that which was condemned in the 10 Commandments?
---Warwick on 8/27/11


Haz, your inner man has changed, a new life lives in you, but every believer at rebirth is just beginning their Christian walk. What you suggest is that the walk is finished (glorified) at regeneration. But regeneration is a transformation. We are been transformed by the Spirit. The doctrine of Glorification refers to that time when, at Christ Second comming, the true believers, both living and dead, will have ful and final redemption of their bodies and reach their final state. The salvation of the elect will be complete. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "This corruptable must put on incorruption, and their mortal must put on immortality"
---Mark_V. on 8/27/11


Haz 2: There's danger to suggest that your not been sanctified, don't have need for correction or anymore revelation from the Spirit. That you have arrived holy forever. When someone thinks that way, you can see what it does to people. They can be judgmental and condemn others to hell, they can say what they want and everyone has to believe them because they are perfect already and they cannot sin. One guy here displays that attitude. You haven't and I'm glad.
Gal. 2:20 in the context is speaking of justification by faith in Christ, not by works of the law. It was Paul's rebuke of Peter. Before grace a person was under the law. (v. 18) "for if I build again those things which I distroyed, I make myself a transgressor"
---Mark_V. on 8/27/11


Amen Haz, so correct
---duane on 8/27/11


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Mark_V:
JIM said: "Justified = Just as if we never sinned.......
This is how God views those who are in Christ"

I recall you said similar regarding our inner man. We both agreed on this but differed as you say our flesh sins whereas my understanding is by faith we believe our old man is dead, crucified because of sin.
I no longer live but Christ lives in me Gal 2:20

If our old man is dead in God's eyes, should we not also see each other as a new creature (2Cor 5:16) and not judge according to who is transgressing the law (sin).

The law is SPIRITUAL Rom 7:14 so there's no way the flesh can meet the requirements of perfectly keeping the law.

Praise God we are justified by his grace Tit 3:7
---Haz27 on 8/26/11


//not one word in Holy Scripture abolishes Gods Holy LAWS although lying counterfeit Christianity teaches their sheep they all have a license to sin "in" their Christ 2Corin 4:11

Obviously you are not knowledgeable of the position found in Romans 6:1,2.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer?

Your judgmental view is totally contrary to what the Bible teaches and depicts the fact that you really have little if any knowledge of it or maybe its Author.

Any good Bible dictionary will reveal to you that the Decalogue is really part of the law of Moses.

READ!
---leej on 8/26/11


Scott //There are some 600 commandments in OT not just 10.
*****

there are 613 mosaic laws - the ordinances GIVEN by Moses ...hence laws of Moses aka Mosiac

God ALLOWED the documentation of the Mosaic laws to demonstrate mans need to rule above GOD ...man always thinking his ways are better than GODS ways

GOD ONLY GAVE ten commandments

not one word in Holy Scripture abolishes Gods Holy LAWS although lying counterfeit christianity teaches their sheep they all have a license to sin "in" their christ 2Corin 4:11

Christ abolished Mosaic laws in Col 2:14

True believers of the Word Christ Jesus understand HE is the LORD of the Sabbath who loves us when we OBEY Gods LAWS aka 10 commandments
---Rhonda on 8/26/11


Scott //There are some 600 commandments in OT not just 10.

Howbeit, the 10 commandments is what the Adventist magnify. Jesus said that if you love me you will obey my commandments. Adventists when they see the word 'commandments' immediately interpret it to the 'ten commandments'.

While they say we are not saved by obeying the 10 commandments, one can lose salvation by not obeying all the commandments.

In short, salvation is free but you can lose it. Likewise justification can only be retained if one passes the investigative judgment (sins are pardoned not forgiven). Thus, salvation unto eternal life is NOT by grace alone to that denomination.<
---leej on 8/26/11


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Warwick //
Lee,from another thread, please tell me which Adventist here has said that Sabbath observance is necessary for salvation.

According to SDA doctrine of Investigative Judgment, one will retain justification only if one acquires a sufficient state of holiness. In order to accomplish that, one has to observe all the 10 commandments.

True, that their position is contradictory to what else they say, but do research yourself especially Ellen White and her Messages and Biblical commentary.
---leej on 8/26/11


Warwick:
I answered your question in "Finish it here Aug" blog.

Jed:
You quoted "Faith without works is dead".
True.
What are our works?
Jesus was asked this question in John6:28,29.
Jesus answered: "that you believe on him whom he hath sent".

As Rom 3:28 says "a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
---Haz27 on 8/26/11


Haz, I understand what you are saying and doing. You pick passages that are meant for those who are not in Christ. And then you stick them to believers. Then you conclude, "see, we are sinless."
What you fail to see is that everyone sins. But those who are in Christ are not under the law anymore. You suggest that Christ bought you with a prize, His own blood, and that the devil can take you away. As if the devil was greater then Christ. A believer is bought only once for all time. It does not mean he will not sin, only that when he sins he has a Mediator. It does not give anyone a license to sin, because He is transforming us each day to be more Christ like. You are either under the law or under Grace.
---Mark_V. on 8/26/11


"Is justification a once and for all event or does it just count for past sins?"
Justification as I read and understand it just count for past sins and
whosoever christian sins again requires the Lord to plead his case
before the Father anew.

1 John 2:1_3 'My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

Do you know what you say you know?
---Nana on 8/26/11


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Justified = Just as if we never sinned.......
This is how God views those who are in Christ.... Jed, Gods grace is the biggest motivator for living a godly life. Christ gave is life for us, so we want to do what He did, treat people as He did, go where He goes, say what he says. I would question any christian who would just out right commit sin.
---JIM on 8/26/11


Lee,from another thread, please tell me which Adventist here has said that Sabbath observance is necessary for salvation.

I have not seen anyone say so.
---Warwick on 8/25/11


Jed:
Your not understanding what I am saying.

You say Christians can sin.
But 1John3:8 says that those who sin are "of the devil"

1Pet 4:18 says "If the righteous (i.e Christians) are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear".
Here we see 2 different groups of people.
Group 1 Righteous
Group 2 Sinners
Clearly you cant be both righteous AND a sinner.

John 8:34-36 says "he who sins is a servant of sin"
But Rom 6:17 says "we WERE servants of sin"
Rom 6:18 "we became servants of righteousness".

Please study scriptures to understand that Jesus truly set us free from sin and we're justified once and for all.
---Haz27 on 8/25/11


Paul:
Your posts about sin lead me to ask these questions of you.

You said: "you must repent of your sins if/when you commit them.

What happens if you forget too?
What if it's habitual sin?
What definition of sin do you use?
If Christians are righteous in Christ how can they still be sinners?
---Haz27 on 8/25/11


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Haz27, Where have you read that we do not have to obey God's word anymore? By your definition, even murder would not be a sin. Transgression of the law is still a sin. Unbelief and blasphemy are not the only sins that one can commit. You are sinning everytime you do somthing not in accordance with God's ways. In fact, the Bible says he that knows he ought to do somthing and doesn't do it, to him it is a sin.

And for those that think you can ignore God and still be saved just because you said a prayer once, please read James "Faith without works is dead." That doesn't mean people will never sin, that's what God's grace is for. But you can't be purposely rejecting God's ways and ingoring His Word and expect to be saved.
---Jed on 8/25/11


It is through that fellowship and from the Word, that one can know what is expected of him.
---leej on 8/25/11

Leej

I agree with you the only problem is that alot of times I find people justify their sins and don't head the correction of God.

Paul
---paul on 8/25/11


//Thus salvation is a free gift that one can lose by not obeying completely all the 10 commandments, especially the Jewish Sabbath.
---leej on 8/25/11//
How can anybody be saved. We serve a perfect God. If we could be holy enough Jesus would not have to die and we could follow the Law to be righteous. There are some 600 commandments in OT not just 10. 10 is the number of challenge used in many parables by Jesus. 10 virgins, 10 coins, 10 healed of leporsy. I know I have broken all 10 commandments before and after salvation.
---Scott1 on 8/25/11


"It is a once and for all event because we are not only cleansed of past sins, but we also recieve a right for forgivness of present sins. (2nd Corinthians 5:21, 1John 2:1-2, 1John 1:9, Hebrews 4:16, 1Peter 2:24)
---Rickey on 8/25/11

The above statement is very true and is unbelievable and unacceptable to those who doubt their salvation. In fact salvation is literally too good to be true to the human mind and without divine insight showing someone the way they will never believe this statement.
---mima on 8/25/11


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Usually those that reject the doctrine of justification are those in denominations that preach you can lose your salvation. Their god has slippery fingers and cannot save anyone.

When someone is born again in Christ, God puts his seal of ownership on that person. John 6:27, 2 tim. 2:19, Eph. 1:13, 4:30.

They are really the works salvation people who know little of the Bible or its Author.
---leej on 8/25/11


The Bible says that God's mercy is new every day. This means that salvation is not a once and for all act. It's a daily walk that consists of daily striving to serve Him and daily repenting of new sins that we commited and Him forgiving us daily. Everyone sins, the Bible is clear on that. "If any man lives and says that he is without sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him." and "There are none righteous, not even one!" The key is to maintain your relationship with God through daily trying and repenting for your slip-ups. Those who think that they can say a prayer once and then do whatever they want are sadly mistaken.
---Jed on 8/25/11


Clearly there is ambiguity about what sin is. Examples such as smoking and drinking were even given.

God gave us definitions of sin. Lets use them only to correctly understand scripture.
Below are 3 of His definitions.

Transgression of the law. 1John3:4

Unbelief in Jesus. John 16:9

Blasphemy of Holy Spirit. Mark 3:29

Ask yourself:
Are you under the law of sin and death and transgressing it?
Do you not believe on Jesus?
Do you blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

Answer: Christians do not do these sins.

We are justified by His grace. Tit 3:7.
We are righteous and NOT sinners. 1Peter 4:18
---Haz27 on 8/25/11


Justification means "declared righteous". The moment we make Jesus our Lord we are justified by faith.(Romans 5:1)

It is a once and for all event because we are not only cleansed of past sins, but we also recieve a right for forgivness of present sins. (2nd Corinthians 5:21, 1John 2:1-2, 1John 1:9, Hebrews 4:16, 1Peter 2:24)
---Rickey on 8/25/11


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leej....that is so sad. People seem to think that they have to keep repenting of sin to be forgiven.
The biggest misuse of scripture in 1 John 1:9. John was talking to believers about the false teachers and gnostics in that time. He was stating what they need to do.
People on here need to relize that when you put your trust in Christ you receive forgivness of all sin and you are cleansed of ALL unrighteousness.
---JIM on 8/25/11


Come on Paul......All believers have the Holy Spirit (a built in sin alarm) which convicts us when we do something wrong. If you are not being convicted you need to ask yourself why and talk to God about that.
---JIM on 8/25/11


//Leej
This is a huge misconception, where do you find the scriptures saying you must be convicted of sin before you refrain from doing so?

The Christian, born spiritually of God, will have a relationship with the Lord.

It is through that fellowship and from the Word, that one can know what is expected of him.

Furthermore, those that are children of God, will come under that discipline as God is liken to a Father who loves His children. Hebrews 12.

I believe that as one grows spiritually in christ and His Word, there is a lesser and lesser problem with sin in ones life. All too often, it is sin of omission that we have a problem with, not sins that are evident.
---leej on 8/25/11


Jim //When Jesus paid the price for your sins on the cross, how many of them were in the future? All of them were. He paid the price for all your sins, not just past sins.

Adventism claims that what sins are forgiven are only those in the past, that one with the help of the Holy Spirit, must strive to achieve a level of holiness by which justification is retained. This is something he cannot know of until after his death. Thus salvation is a free gift that one can lose by not obeying completely all the 10 commandments, especially the Jewish Sabbath.
---leej on 8/25/11


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Paul "had a Pastor justify smoking to me once with that same thought process, by saying "well God has never convicted me of it"

Paul what is biblical proof that smoking is sin?

as some also maintain that drinking is sin, what is the proof?

and even others maintain that women wearing pants is sin.

how can anyone know upon these three examples that it is sin or not?

(defenately there are more examples of my question).
---andy3996 on 8/25/11


Paul said 8/24/11: "you must repent of your sins if/when you commit them.

What happens if you forget too?
What if it's habitual sin?

What is sin anyway?
One definition God gave is "sin is transgression of the law" 1John3:4

Are we under that law?
Rom 8:2 "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death"

Rom 3:19 "whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT."

Rom 4:15 "where there is no law there is no transgression" (sin).

Rom 3:20 "by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified"

Clearly "being justified by his grace" (Tit 3:7) is once and for all




---Haz27 on 8/25/11


LeeJ Justification is a "once and for all event".
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.Whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom 5:1,2,9,18>8:30 NKJV
---Josef on 8/25/11


Paul
******
I usually wait until the Lord convicts me either by His Spirit or by His word.
---leej on 8/24/11

Leej
This is a huge misconception, where do you find the scriptures saying you must be convicted of sin before you refrain from doing so?

I had a Pastor justify smoking to me once with that same thought process, by saying "well God has never convicted me of it"

When Mosses came off the Mountain he never said to keep these commandments as God convicts you,he said keep these commandments.


Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


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Ellen White is quoted saying: "When the sinner has fully surrendered to Christ and lives a holy life, his sins will remain 'pardoned' and 'the blessing of justification is retained'. Pardoned sin, however, is not full forgiveness, forgiveness is only granted on condition of passing the investigative judgment. Ellen White SDA Bible Commentary, Selected Messages."

Thanks leej for this quote.

Clearly Ellen White lacks understanding.
---Haz27 on 8/24/11


leej....we are justified (made righteous) through our faith in Christ. It is through this faith that we receive forgiveness of our sins(all of them) which Christ paid the penalty for.
leej...When Jesus paid the price for your sins on the cross, how many of them were in the future? All of them were. He paid the price for all your sins, not just past sins.
---JIM on 8/24/11


Leej Did you stop sinning after words? If not you must repent of your sins if/when you commit them.

Paul
******
I usually wait until the Lord convicts me either by His Spirit or by His word.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

I suppose that is it really a matter of how well we are versed in His word as well as how well we listen to Him.
---leej on 8/24/11


At the moment of justification, Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer meaning that God counts him as righteous in Christ. When the sinner has fully surrendered to Christ and lives a holy life, his sins will remain 'pardoned' and 'the blessing of justification is retained'. Pardoned sin, however, is not full forgiveness, forgiveness is only granted on condition of passing the investigative judgment. Ellen White SDA Bible Commentary, Selected Messages.
---leej on 8/24/11


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Leej

Did you stop sinning after words?

If not you must repent of your sins if/when you commit them.

Paul
---paul on 8/24/11


1st John 1:9 says If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As born again believers in Christ Jesus, the flesh still sins. Justification means to free from blame, declare guiltless, absolve.

If we say we have no sin, then we are a liar.

Justification counts for past, present and future sins. However, John tells us IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteouness. Which means we're still going to sin as Christians, and like King David in Psalm 51, he confessed his sins and repented for them to God.
---anon on 8/24/11


Rom.4:25-25-But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord form the dead. Who was delivered for our offences, & was raised again for our justification.
Rom. 5:16- And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgement was by one to condemnation, but the free gift of many offences unto justification.
Rom.5:18- Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ehp. 4:30- And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Christ's sacrifice covers past, present & future sins.
---Reba on 8/24/11


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