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Explain Daniel 3:25

Is Daniel 3:25, proof that Jesus Christ was in the furnace. What notion could this idolatrous king have of the Lord Jesus Christ? And could an Idolatrous king have been anointed by God to speak in the power of the Holy Spirit?

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 ---kathr4453 on 8/25/11
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Mark 12:29-37
Jesus said : Hear O Israle the Lord our God is ONE LORD.

VS 35, Jesus said, how say the Scribes that Christ is the Son of DAvid? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, the Lord said to My Lord Sit thou at tmy right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David Himself therefore calleth him LORD, and how is he then a son?

That verse says more than you think. Jesus never referred to Himself as an eternal son.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


The RCC who DEVELOPED the Doctrine of the Trinity has added a "Mother of God" who is in their system of belief the supreme deity beside a host of demi-gods, one for every day of the year (and more), all of which mythical and man-invented deities are worshipped and prayed to. Praying to saints as well as Mary totally disobey 1st TImoyth 2,5
"For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus" - 1 Tim. 2:5
Are they truly the AUTHORITY on the Doctrine of the Trinity???? NO. Both Jesus and Mary to them are CO-Redeemers.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


Spiritual abuse includes any of the following:
Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being
Submission to spiritual authority without any right to disagree, intimidation
Unreasonable control of a person's basic right to make a choice on spiritual matters
False accusation and repeated criticism by negatively labeling a person as disobedient, rebellious, lacking faith, demonized, apostate, enemy of the church or God
Spiritually abusive behaviour is condemned as being one of the worst forms of sin due to its capacity to diminish or even to destroy an individual's relationship with God.

MarkV is a spiritual abuser....REPENT!
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


Kathr, I was going to agree with you concerning what Paul wrote. Jesus never stops been God. He had the powers of God for He is God and never stops been God. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He reserved His powers in order to be submissive to the Father. In His incarnation, He had two natures, one of flesh, though without sin nature, and One of Divine nature.
I do not stop answering because you are teaching heretical teachings. You are not a Christian, for in order to be saved you have to believe in the Son of God. And you not only don't believe in Him, but you have the guts to speak against Him. What you are really doing is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit testifies of Christ. And there is no forgiveness for that.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


--Jesus , as the Word, was in the beginning with the Father, He came to earth and became flesh thus relinquishing His Godship to become man.

Upon His ascension He reassumed Hid Godship.

Therefore He is God in Heaven and man on earth.--
Paul

This is how Ive always understand Christ being fully God and yet fully man. The One who created all things and yet the one who was submissive to the Father while here on earth.
---CraigA on 8/30/11




Paul, the WORD , who was made to be flesh did not relinquish His Godship to become man. Phil 2 states, He was still equal to God, but made himself a servant, becoming obedient unto death.

And MarkV...PIPE down with your yadda yadda yadda out of control comments.

THERE is NO PROOF that pror to Jesus incarnation He was an eternal Son of God. No where is that stated in scripture, and MANY GREAT Christians who know much more than you markv disagree with you, INCLUDNG John McArthur and Charles Stanley.

So, with that, please LEARN how to discuss, and not RAM and call names to those who disagree with YOU!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


Andy gave a good passage for everyone concerning Jesus Christ,
"For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the "church of God which He purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20:27,28).
Now as we know that Christ was human and did shed His blood on the cross, but God who is Spirit has no blood. Here Jesus Christ is discribe as God for only He Himself had human blood. Paul believed so strongly in the unity of God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ that he could speak of Christ death as shedding the blood of God-who has no body (John 4:24: Luke 24:39) and hence no blood.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


Paul, Jesus is as much Fully GOD fully MAN in heaven today as He id Fully God Fully man on earth. There is only ONE mediator between God and man, and the scriptures say it is "the MAN Christ Jesus", yet He is STILL God, Still the Almighty Lord GodAlmighty, still the Beginning and End, Isaiah 44:6, Rev 1:8, Rev 22:13, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 41,4, iSAIAH 48:12, AND still THE WORD, Rev 19:13.

So, just looking at this DUO ONE person, why is it so hard to believe or grasp in ONE God in three persons.

The reason it's hard is because man had to somehow define it in human understanding, because it is hard to understand, yet we mesed up by bringing God down to our level of understandig.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


Kathr 2: And the passage right after those in Acts 20:27,28 is passage 29,
"For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock" We are warned of wolves willing pervert the word of God, but will never be able to deceive the Elect.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


MarkV, I suppose your accusations against me are also against all who disagree with you. I will show Dr. Stanley what you said about him, and see what he says about such dogmatic vicious comments.

OH, and Dr. Stanley who you LOVE also must be depraved too since he too does not believe in total depravity.

Your comments don't hurt me markv, they only make you look vicious, hateful, dogmatic and not to mention, the sight of foam running down each side of your mouth as Calvin too must have looked like when me murdered those who disagreed with him, and even over believers baptism too. Calvin said he was regenerated at his INFANT Baptism. WRONG!

Your father is a murderer and was from the beginning!
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11




Kathr

I was pointing out to you in John 3 that the Spirit is as the wind and that He is not confined to any of the constraints that we are.

Therefore Jesus did not have to be in the flesh to be with His Father from the beginning.
Paul
I am also not saying that Jesus is not God, what I am saying is that He is not God exclusively.

Jesus , as the Word, was in the beginning with the Father, He came to earth and became flesh thus relinquishing His Godship to become man.

Upon His ascension He reassumed Hid Godship.

Therefore He is God in Heaven and man on earth.


Paul
---paul on 8/29/11


Kathr, you cannot see the Truth because, the Father has not reveal it to you. Heretics will do their best to reject the truth. Remember when I told you that fallen man is depraved, and has no free will? He is free to make a choice but his will is in bondage to sin. No one holds him from receiving Christ, but he won't come because he is not willing to. You are a good example to what I said. The Truth of the eternal Sonship of Christ is stated plainly in Scripture, no one is stopping you from accepting it, you are just not willing to believe it. No one is stopping you. No one has a gun to your head, you are free to make a choice yet your will, will not let you. That is how fallen man finds himself, spiritually depraved of the things of God.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


Kathr 2: Man's ruin lies mainly in his perverse will. He cannot come because he will not. Help enough is provided if he were only willing to accept it. Paul says " The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, "neither indeed can it be." so they that are of the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7). But there are those who do receive Him, and they did so because they "Were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God: For they "beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and Truth"
But you will not believe, enough help is given, yet you are not willing to believe.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


King Neb foreshaddows the anti-christ. Builds a Golden image to himself. Is rebuked, sees Gods hand. YET again after seeing God's hand EXALTS himself and ends up with the beasts of the earth for 7 years.


His son again EXALTS himself and again Daniel prophesies their doom and downfall and babylon is overthrown.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/11


Isaiah 43,10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11I, even I, am the LORD, and beside me there is no saviour.

Rhonda, there are not two Gods. Read Isaiah 41-48. You will see SEVERAL times God takinhg here declares >I AM beginning and end at least 3 times, and I AM more than that.. Not only so, but there is only ONE God.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/11


Saddam Hussein considered himself to be the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar and had the inscription "To King Nebuchadnezzar in the reign of Saddam Hussein" inscribed on bricks inserted into the walls of the ancient city of Babylon during a reconstruction project he initiated..He named one of his Republican Guards divisions after Nebuchadnezzar.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/11


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" And now, O Father, glorify Me beside Youself, with the glory which I had beside You before the world ever was" (John 17:5). markv//

MarkV, you TWISTED again that verse, It doesn't say Glorify me BESIDE Yourself.


It says, Glorify me WITH THINE own self, with the Glory that I had WITH THEE before the world was.

John 1 does not say"

In the beginning was the Son and the Son was With God and teh Son was God.

It says very clearly in the Beginning was THE WORD..
---kathr4453 on 8/29/11


Chris9396, I'm aware believers use Jesus Christ interchangeably. Here I had to make the distinction for those who distort the Truth. Jesus name was given to the incarnated Christ who was born of the Holy Spirit. When Scripture speaks of Christ as the only-begotten Son of God, it speaks of Him as such in His divine nature. Thus when John says, "And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only-Begotten of the Father" (John 1:14) that glory was the glory of Christ's divine nature, for how could His human nature, which was marred more that the sons of men, shine forth with the glory of His divine? This glory of the Only-Begotten of the Father is most evidently the same glory as that of which Jesus speaks in those touching word:
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


Chris9396 2: " And now, O Father, glorify Me beside Youself, with the glory which I had beside You before the world ever was" (John 17:5). This must be the glory of His divine nature, for His human nature He had not then assumed. Then "the glory of the Only-begotten of the Father" must be the same "glory as He had with Him before the world was." And we are told,
"And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding that we might know Him that is true: And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and everlasting life" (1 John 5:20).
It's very clear that those who do not have the understanding of the Father will continue to argue.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


"Belteshazzar chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you," Now did the King understand? He did, but you didn't. MarkV//

MarkV, Belteshazzar is the name King Neb gave to DANIEL. according to the name of King Nebs gods
who told King Neb what his dream was about. NEVER was KING NEB filled with the Holy Spirit to interpret anythng, of did King NEb himself speak in the power of the Holy Spirit IN HIM.

MarkV, CAN you read?
---kathr4453 on 8/29/11


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Isaiah 44:6 God identifies Himself as the Beginning and End, and there is only ONE GOD.

Revelation Jesus declares Himself Alpha and Onega, Beginning and End, First and Last THE ALMIGHTY.

There are not TWO Alpha and Omegs's Beginning and End and First and Last, and there are NOT TWO "I AM"'s in Scripture.

Daniel 3:28 said an angel was in the furnace. And that's that.

There was no one named jesus Christ before His Incarnation. AND there was no eternal son prior to His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/11


MarkV, you have totally missed the whole point here. When Balaam saw the Angel of the Lord bloockig his way, he immediately fell down to the ground in reverance and awe.

AND again I never said Jesus teh man existed prior to His incarnation.

You said Christ did. I say Christ goes with Jesus. ONLY the IDEA and PLAN of Jesus the Christ/ the Messsiah existed with God prior to His incarnation.

Just as YOU did not exist before your birth, however Gods PLAN of bringing many into Glory is all that existed.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/11


Read Jesus explanation to Nicodemus as to how spirits operate and it may help your perception. John 3:8

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11
After Paul said The Son of God was not God, he ended with this. NOW, this verse in no way says SPIRITS...plural. It says Spirit, as in the Holy Spirit.

That is also false doctrine, and Mormonism. Putting all what Paul stated together, I understand now why he is so dogmatic about who he believes was in the furnace and why.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/11


Kathr, you said to me:
"Gee, if King Neb know He was the Son of God, I wonder why he didn't fall and bow down."
You must have not read the whole story. What I do know is that your reject passages (the Word of God).
What does the King say to the people?
"I though it good to declare the signs and wonders that the Most High God has worked for me. How great are His signs, And how might His wonders. His kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation." then he said:
"Belteshazzar chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you," Now did the King understand? He did, but you didn't.
---Mark_V. on 8/28/11


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The second person of the Trinity was GOD. Not a creature in the form of a man or angel who was made flesh.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11

The second person of the trinity is the Son of God, not God.
******

interesting how so many who embrace the pagan trinity NEVER AGREE on what this MYSTERY is (Rev 17:5)!!!!

This is WHY the Apostles were INSPIRED by The Father in Heaven through Christ Jesus (THE ONLY GODS) to WARN about the other christ contained in this mystery trinity 2Corin 11:4

The Father in Heaven and HIS son (not sun) Christ are the ONLY GODS 1Corin 8:6 ...there are no "other" gods!!
---Rhonda on 8/28/11


Paul:

1) Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I Am" - indicating pre-existence

2) That does not necessarily mean that he made lots of cameo appearances in the Bible. Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists also believe Jesus made earlier appearances - as the archangel Michael.

3) The term term "sons of God" is used several times in the Bible to refer to angelic beings (including Satan), so the singular "son of God" would be the singular form.

Seeing "a son of God" in the furnace would most likely refer to an angel. Whenever Jesus pointed out scriptures that referred to him, he typically pointed to ones that referred to "son on man", not "son of God".
---StrongAxe on 8/26/11


MarkV, "Jesus Christ was not in the furnace, Jesus the human was not born yet of the Holy Spirit. Christ the eternal Son of God was in the furnace. The Bible says, "and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God" In the form. He did not say was Jesus Christ." I sometimes use Son of God and jesus Christ interchangeably, but agree Jesus in the form of man, was not yet born. As I read your post, I thought of Rev 13:8
"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." depending upon ones interpretation, (discussed in other forums) the Lamb (Jesus Christ) was slain from the foundation of the world. your thoughts?
---Chris9396 on 8/26/11


\\The second person of the trinity is the Son of God, not God.\\

Wrong, paul.

The Son has the same divine nature as the Father, hence is likewise God.

This was settled at the Council of Nicea.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


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Jesus is the same identity
---paul on 8/26/11


Sorry guys spell check changed this word from entity to identity.

Suppose to be entity though.

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


The second person of the trinity is the Son of God, not God.Paul//

Paul, this is where You and I will part ways.

Only God can rais the dead, as Jesus said I AM THE RESURRECTION.

Jesus is God, the Great I AM. I Am that I Am
Jesus was that ROCK that followed Israel in the wilderness.

He was the bread that came down from Heaven.

Anyone who denies that Jesus is not Lord and God I really want nothing to do with.

Thomas said "MY LORD and MY GOD!"

The Lord our God is ONE!

And stating "Second person" of the Trinity in no way means 2nd im power or second in position or authority.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


Jesus is the same identity spoken of in Gen as us in our image and in the furnace which was placed into Mary's womb and born as Jesus.Paul


OH DEAR, sounds like anothe MORMON here, or else someone is smokin crack.

Jesus is the Son of God , and not only that the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God.

Paul God's SEED was placed into Mary's womb, and that SEED is Christ Jesus. God's SEED is just that God's SEED. And God's SEED met with Mary's EGG and inside Mary's womb a baby was formed. A GOD MAN was born 9 months later. There has never been before or after anything like Him.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


Paul reread your post

it appears as if you say that Jesus IS NOT GOD

in reading your other posts i know that this is not what you tried to invoke. so please reread and reformulate before others take this to slander.
---andy3996 on 8/27/11


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//Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus is the Son of God as He says He is.// paul

1. because the christian cannot separate from Judean roots. As Godliness is now, it always has been.

2. because there is a need to explain Godliness to others using our logic. Godliness is a mystery that cannot be explained. it can only be accepted.

it's kind of the same concept of water baptism v. spiritual baptism. we see it plainly in the scriptures, but just in case, we will fall back to what was.
---aka on 8/27/11


Kathr, you can say that Jesus always existed if you want, but when you use the name Jesus before His incarnation it implies that Jesus in His humanity already existed. He was born, He was to be name Jesus. He is the Messiah, when He came in human form to die for our sins. But He always existed in His nature as the Son of the living God. Prophet's spoke of a coming Messiah. He manifested Himself many times in the Old Testament. The Humanity of Christ is evident first of all in the fact that He possessed a true human body composed of flesh and blood. He did not possessed a human body before other then He appeared in a form of a body.
---Mark_V. on 8/27/11


Does anyone know why this blog does not update on the weekends?

I have begged the mods (literally) to explain why but for whatever reason they will not do so.

The bloggers instructions say they are updated every two hours, I don't see any exceptions for the week end.

Looks like they would be more vigilant on the weekends for typically people have more spare time to blog.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Paul


---paul on 8/27/11


The father, the son,and the Holy Spirit are all one. They all exist within eachother,and you cant have one without the other. Jesus would pray in order to show us how to pray,so we could lead by his example. Jesus always said "I and the Father are one". He never said they were seperate entities.
---James on 8/27/11


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The second person of the Trinity was GOD. Not a creature in the form of a man or angel who was made flesh.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11

The second person of the trinity is the Son of God, not God.

Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus is the Son of God as He says He is.

Jesus is the same identity spoken of in Gen as us in our image and in the furnace which was placed into Mary's womb and born as Jesus.

Read Jesus explanation to Nicodemus as to how spirits operate and it may help your perception. John 3:8

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


fJesus Christ was not in the furnace, Jesus the human was not born yet of the Holy Spirit. Christ, the eternal Son of God was in the furnace. ---Mark_V. on 8/26/11

Gee, if King Neb know He was the Son of God, I wonder why he didn't fall and bow down.

Do you not know what Christ/Messiah means?

But no matter what MarkV, you believe it was, and so does Paul PROVING that heathens before salvation could SEE Christ! You just admitted so. Thanks for that anyway.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


You know, what concerns me too is that in these last days, many will say, here is tth Christ, There is the Christ WE SAW HIM, etc, and those who don't know their bibles, or are so pig-headed about their OPINIONS without facts will certainly be bamboozled by it all.

So you thing EVERY little detail, EVERY WORD of God doesn,t matter? It certainly does.


So MarkV, if the Christ pre-existed, did the KING preexist too?
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


MarkV. Bible Lesson 101

We find that the Hebrew word "Mashiyach" is translated both "Messiah" and "anointed" and that Messiah, does indeed, mean anointed.

The English words "Messiah", "Anointed", and "Christ" all come from the same Hebrew word and, are used interchangeably. In other words, when we say Jesus Christ, or Jesus the Christ, we could just as accurately say Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Anointed of the Lord.

Jesus Christ is the Name and title of the One who is FULLY GOD FULLY MAN. There is no Jesus without Christ, and there is no Christ without Jesus.

---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


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of fourth resembles [to] [a] son [of] gods (or [a] son [of] God, or [the] son [of] God)

--StrongAxe on 8/26/11


Your options indicate that perhaps it could mean the Son of God, and your other scriptures use son in the pleural sense not the singular.

It cant be proven or disproven so it is a mute point, now do you believe that Jesus was not with the Father from the beginning.

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


"'You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me.'" (John 5:39) So, I can see that the scriptures are testifying of Jesus being in the furnace. And the word "angel" can mean a "messenger", and not always one of God's created spiritual beings whom He uses. Jesus is also called a "man", at times, though He is much more than humans are. So, I can see He could be called an "angel" though He is so more than the angels and humans.
---Bill_willa6989 on 8/26/11


Kathr, you have spoken against Calvinism, which exhalts God and the eternal Son of the living God. And now you support the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormon's, Unitarians, and Socinian's. All against the eternal Sonship of Christ. Jesus Christ was not in the furnace, Jesus the human was not born yet of the Holy Spirit. Christ, the eternal Son of God was in the furnace. The Bible says, "and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God" In the form. He did not say was Jesus Christ. We are later told He who appeared was an Angel. Your twist of words cannot cannot change the Theophanies. Which comes from the Greek words for God (theos) and "to appear" (phaino) which means the appearance of someone, in this case Christ.
---Mark_V. on 8/26/11


And if opinions count I will guarantee you that more people believe this is referring to the being which was to be born in flesh and become our Savior (Jesus).

---paul on 8/26/11

But then again paul, one would have to first believe the Trinity is three separate individuals. One being before His incarnation in the form of a man already, and then just putting on flesh, the epidermas of man.

So it's more than just what you may think.

The second person of the Trinity was GOD. Not a creature in the form of a man or angel who was made flesh.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


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\\Cluny, verse 28 assures us that King Neb was totally aware of what he saw and WHY he saw what he saw.\\

Please notice my words FULL SIGNIFICANCE. Even since Christ came, "now we know in part," as St. Paul said in 1 Cor 13. How much MORE was such knowledge of spiritual things only partial before then?

Even were this a created angel, he still would have appeared in male form, as they always do elsewhere in the Bible.

BTW--I don't think your salvation depends in what you believe about the identity of the fourth person in the fire.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


Paul, I also believe it is important to state many believe Michael the ArchAngel was Jesus Christ, who was born too of the Virgin Mary, and after he rose from the dead, shed his flesh, and returned to Heaven as an angel and or Spirit.

Now, one must ask, how did that happen BIOLOGICALLY with the Holy Spirit overshaddowing Mary. Did The Holy Spirit overshaddow Mary and INSERT an already person in Mary's womb, be it the second person of the Trinity, or an angel. THEN that being could never be FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN.

So, yes, it goes far deeper than you think.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11




And it's NOT just my opinion that angels were created beings, and God nor any part of the Trinity were not!
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


Kathr
Two points were being made, I was referring to the fact the this entire premise of your blog question is your opinion, not the trinity or created beings.

And if opinions count I will guarantee you that more people believe this is referring to the being which was to be born in flesh and become our Savior (Jesus).

Who was from creation which is the true point up for debate here, you took off on one detail and abandoned the point, for you cant disprove it.

You seem like a nice person but we are talking about Biblical truths here which must remain intact.

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (SMA).
---Scott1 on 8/25/11

Could we all remember that these names are Babylonian.

Their CORRECT names are Hanaiah, Azariah, and Mishael.

That is, unless you want to read the Book of Belteshazar.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/26/11


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and Paul, If perhaps this is just an angel, would that in any way CHANGE what you believe? I'm sure you have enough supporting scripture with out this one...correct?
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11

Exactly right,

I didn't start this thread, you did.

Anything other than the KJV plainly stating it is the Son of God is complete opinion.

And If you disagree with the KJV you will have to take it up with King James, though it is widely the most reputable and received of ALL translations.

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


I'm saying that the king was granted a vision, though he probably was not aware of the full significance of what he was seeing.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11

Cluny, verse 28 assures us that King Neb was totally aware of what he saw and WHY he saw what he saw.

and Paul, If perhaps this is just an angel, would that in any way CHANGE what you believe? I'm sure you have enough supporting scripture with out this one...correct?

We all know God said in Genesis, "LET US" make man in OUR image, however was the 4th man in the furnace for a FACT one of the "US and OUR"?

And it's NOT just my opinion that angels were created beings, and God nor any part of the Trinity were not!
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


Reba, No one is questioning the Bible, but only MAN who has given his opinion of what the Bible says.

But Being a good Berean is most honorable, and being obedient to RIGHTLY dividing the word of Truth is a MUST!
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


Why do we mere human beings have to question little things like this in the Bible to death? Why can't we just accept it as God had it written? (Mark 10:14-15) Sure the king was an unbeliever, sure language & sentence structure may have changed somewhat since the Bible was written. Are we, as simple humans, not smart enough to realize that the all knowing God that we serve knows everything that has happened or will happen. He knew before we did about how words were spoken & written. He told the writers what to write & I believe it was inspired down to the jot & tittle. Every crossing of the t's every dotting of the i's. Just take God at His word that He showed the king who he was seeing in the fire. Simple.
---Reba on 8/26/11


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Paul:

The Aramaic at the end of Dan 3:25 is: ... di revi'i dameh lebar-elahin
In English: ... of fourth resembles [to] [a] son [of] gods (or [a] son [of] God, or [the] son [of] God)

"son" is in the construct state, which means it has the same definiteness as the word that follows ("gods" or "God"). Since "elahin" stands alone (and there is no way to tell if it is singular or plural), we cannot tell from context whether it means "gods" or "God". And even if it is "God", we can't be sure if it means "a son of God" or "the son of God".

See also: Genesis 6:2,4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7.
---StrongAxe on 8/26/11


Kathr

This is absolutely correct, therefore the same it true of the opposite, you cant disprove it either. All we can do is accept the King in 1611 translated the text with MODERN punctuation principles when Capitalizing Son.

Its up to you again to accept or reject.


, I'll stick with this that Angels are one thing, teh Son of God is quite another.It certainly has more substance than "OPINION"!
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


No one will dispute the Son and angels differ nor the fact that this is your opinion.

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


James

I have no problem nor do I fear my beliefs being challenged, I dont like when the conversation borders dishonorable ideology.

When you speak negatively of the Son of God indignation rises up and I become troubled.

I have posted many unanswered scriptures to reinforce my point, you call me unlearned you are the one falling short and rewriting text in your own hand to substantiate your points.

I have proven you wrong time and again and you wish to insult my Biblical education.

I have many years of training and education behind me.


Typical diversionary tactics when you trailing engage in personal attacks, I wont go there so answer my questions and we can perhaps continue.

Paul
---paul on 8/26/11


Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants -----

WHY oh WHY then if King Neb was filled with the voice of God , anointed of the Holy Spirit did he not say,Son of God here a second time? That would have been the PERFECT supporting scripture. And he doesn't even say "THE Angel of the Lord", which many say in the OT was the Son as well.

So if King Neb was anointed to speak, then God speaking through him did not QUALIFY what so obviously has been changed in the original text. OR God DID qualify the original text by again explaining it was an angel.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


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\\Cluny, are you saying the ETERNAL Son had a form like a man, or King Neb saw a vision of what Jesus would have looked like if He were alive at that time?\\

I'm saying that the king was granted a vision, though he probably was not aware of the full significance of what he was seeing.

Visions are generally given in a way that the visionary can understand, at least partially.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


It could be that the "4th Person" was so obviously Glorified in appearance that He could be identified as no one else. As far as using an idolatrous king who could observe and speak the Truth...? GOD also used a talking donkey to rebuke Balaam...
---Gordon on 8/26/11


IT COULD BE, maybe it was, It's possible,.....

Now concerning the donkey, as it sems this is PROOF...

Where did the Donkey say...I SEE THE SON OF GOD???

Cluny, are you saying the ETERNAL Son had a form like a man, or King Neb saw a vision of what Jesus would have looked like if He were alive at that time?
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


kathr4453, it would be better to use the term "pre-incarnate Logos," because He was not given the name "Jesus" until His incarnation in the womb of the Virgin.

**For those who do not know, punctuation is very important in scripture, upper case always refers to deity.**

Did you know that punctuation and capitalization are very late, paul, and the practices have varied throughout time and from place to place? Some modern languages still have neither.

Ancient Biblical manuscripts have neither. Old Rite Slavonic STILL will not capitalize ANY words, even divine names, in the middle of a sentence.


Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


It could be that the "4th Person" was so obviously Glorified in appearance that He could be identified as no one else. As far as using an idolatrous king who could observe and speak the Truth...? GOD also used a talking donkey to rebuke Balaam...
---Gordon on 8/26/11


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For those who do not know, punctuation is very important in scripture, upper case always refers to deity.

In Dan 3:25 you find Son of God in the singular and written in the upper cases form indicating deity and singularity in presence.

---paul on 8/25/11

ONLY the KJV has changed from the original To make it singular AND CAPS.

" is like as a son of god," is like as a son of the gods"

It is difficult to revisit scriptures and investigate FOR OURSELVES what is true. We're so use to being taught what someone else told us, feeling it's a sin to challence it.

One thing for sure. NO ONE, admittedly can PROVE through scripture this is Jesus Christ. They ADMIT, "it's only my OPINION!".
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


Dan 3:28 - Dan 6:22 both state God has sent his angel to deliver. in the Strongs concordance angel is just that, an angel.

Now what this does do is VALIDATE Hebrews 1 and 2, that in teh OT God spoke to man through His messengers who were Angels. But in these last days has spoken to us through His Son Jesus Christ.

No where in Hebrews is there any indication that in the OT God's Angels were the Eternal Son or the Son of God.

Hebrews is a great book to verify and clarif truth. As it was written by a Jew who certainly knew more about OT than anyone else, I'll stick with this that Angels are one thing, teh Son of God is quite another.It certainly has more substance than "OPINION"!
---kathr4453 on 8/26/11


Paul,
You have a serious problem. You are unlearned in the scriptures, evident by your constant appeal to English letter casing and puntuation.

You are don't base your beliefs on scripture, you push your beliefs onto the text.

You're scared to death to have your beliefs challenged, which is why you get "troubled" in your spirit when someone gives a rational argument.

You accuse others of malice toward scripture just because they refuse to butcher the word as you do.

And then you call Kathr unteachable?

You need to grow up. Kathr and I disagree very strongly at times, but that doesn't mean she's unteachable. You ahould aspire to learn as much as she has. You'll "feel" better
---James_L on 8/26/11


referred to as "sons of Gods" and this is possible
---kathr4453 on 8/25/11

Kathr

When you see angels referenced it is by the title of sons of God in the plural sense and with lower case lettering.

For those who do not know, punctuation is very important in scripture, upper case always refers to deity.

In Dan 3:25 you find Son of God in the singular and written in the upper cases form indicating deity and singularity in presence.

The same one referenced in Gen 1:26

That is if we are using the Bible as our authority, if you insist on doubting scriptures and undermining the Word of God to substantiate your point then I want nothing to do with the discussion.



Paul
---paul on 8/25/11


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The fourth man could have been just an angel or a preincarnate of Jesus. In the prophets it says that Nebuchadnezzar is a servant of God meaning God had control of the situation.
From Nebuchadnezzar viewpoint gods battled each other just like us humans do. If a human worshipped a god, that god would fight for them. So when Nebuchadnezzar threw them in the fire it was a battle between Nebuchadnezzar's god and the god of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (SMA). When SMA survived it showed that god of SMA was strong. Nebuchanezzar's god (from his perspective) had given him the power to control the known world and have great empire. If Neb. could add SMA's god to his collection of gods Neb would be even stronger (v28-30).
---Scott1 on 8/25/11


"HE is sovereign and we are not, certainly not YOU, kathr. As He told Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/11


let us pray that God's mercy will be fully extended to the man who wrote the above.
---mima on 8/25/11


Kathr

You are amazing, you first state there is no OT scriptures that call Jesus the Son of God.

I present scriptures that prove you wrong and you, instead of saying perhaps you were thinking wrong, attack the King, the scriptures and the credibility of the text.

That is ridicules, you do not have a teachable spirit and will stop short of nothing to just be right.

Dan 3:25 plainly calls the person in the furnace the Son of God, so what is the problem.

It is not referring to angels for they are called the sons of men in the OT.

It is not God for it would have said so plainly.

Therefore it is the SON OF GOD, why do you protest scriptures?

Paul
---paul on 8/25/11


I've always assumed God could speak through any one or anything He chose. He spoke through a donkey, why not an idolatrous king? He is God after all. He has no limits. He wanted to prove His point that He was God & there was nothing the king could do to stop his men unless He(GOD)wanted them to be stopped. The best kind of eye witness is one who didn't believe then WHAM there it is in your face. Hard to deny that. Pretty exciting stuff if you ask me.:-)))
---Reba on 8/25/11


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"Is Daniel 3:25, proof that Jesus Christ was in the furnace." For me it is. When seeking to know the Truth, and having just started reading a bible, I came across Dan 3. i'd had RCC teaching, had been taught of the fiery furnace, from a "Religion" book, no mention of a 4th, so all I got from that was that God delivered. That's great, but when I first read this, Imy eyes were opened to who Jesus Christ is, and that He is eternal. I began searching for more. I had no idea that Jesus existed prior to His birth, and is in fact God. God loosed those bonds. This is perhaps my favorite of all since it began a radical change...As for the King, God can ordain infants, or rocks to praise, so why not?
---Chria9396 on 8/25/11


Cluny, many views on this verse, many will say that this was not the Son of God, but as scripture states in many versions states IS LIKE the Son of God. Some versions have son and god in a smaller case.

Since no one has ever seed God or the form of the Son of God at any time, OT. Now an angel also called a son of God would not be out of reach here either.

Scripture, as in the case of Daniel 3:25 would need at least 1 or 2 other OT scriptures to back up what a son of God, or THE Son of God looked like in any FORM. It clearly doesn't say IS THE SON OF GOD.

25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
---kathr4453 on 8/25/11


There is controversy over who was the fourth person that was seen in the fiery furnace. Some suppose that it was an angel sent from God to protect them in the fire. In other places in the Old Testament angels are referred to as "sons of Gods" and this is possible (See Genesis 6:2-4, Job 1:6, 2:1). Later when Daniel was throw into the lion's den Daniel 6:22 states that God sent an angel to protect His servant and shut the mouths of the lions. Daniel 3:25 says the fourth person was "like the son (Hebrew "bar" referring to a son or grandson). The word "angel" in both Testaments means a messenger.

It was an Angel sent when Paul was in Prison.



---kathr4453 on 8/25/11


Kathr

You are amazing, you first state there is no OT scriptures that refers to the Son of God.

I present scriptures that teach you their is and instead of you conceding you attack the King, the scriptures and the credibility of the text.

That is ridicules, you do not have a teachable spirit and will stop short of nothing to just be right.

Dan 3:25 plainly calls the person in the furnace the Son of God, so what is the problem.

It is not referring to angels for they are called the sons of men in the OT.

It is not God for it would have said so plainly.

Therefore it is the SON OF GOD, why do you protest scriptures?

Paul
---paul on 8/25/11


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What I especially notice is verse 28 where King Neb speaks again, but this time calling him an Angel. I would suppose if King Neb had really SEEN GOD as a Grown MAN in the furnace before His incarnation would have called for some astounding scriptures to clarify verse 23.

If God is a Spirit, and no one has ever seen God, and The Holy Spirit is a Spirit, we cannot see, are we to believe that God could and had acually been seen by Neb, and not Moses or David or any other GREAT SAINT.

Well, there goes the calvin theory no matter how you look at it.
---kathr4453 on 8/25/11


There in nothing in any of the Commentaries I read in order to answer this question, that states this 4th person was
Christ. It was only referring to an angel or some heavenly being. In fact, if you read the Bible correctly you will read that the word, "like" is used, not, "is"
---wivv on 8/25/11


I wanted to mention (but the word limit didn't allow it) that the king of Babylon might well have seen the pre-incarnate Logos, but wasn't aware of the significance of what he was seeing.

In the same way, Balaam's donkey was given a massage for his owner, but she herself experienced no change because of this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/11


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