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Core Christian Doctrines

Is there a single, core christian doctrine on which ten people can find complete agreement?

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 ---Allan on 8/25/11
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"Your throne, O God..." Heb. 1:8. Mark_V (2)

Based on the Greek, many respected (trinitarian) scholars, prefer a different rendering than the one you've posted:

Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as "probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day." His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8:

"God is thy throne for ever and ever."

University of Cambridge professor and New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be "construed so as to mean Thy throne is God"- p. 32, An Idiom Book of NT Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: "God is your throne...."
---scott on 9/1/11


"Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever" Heb. 1:8." Mark_V (1)

Remember that when Paul wrote these words he was quoting Ps. 45:6.

Psalm 45 celebrates an Israelite king's marriage, and the psalmist applies verses 6 and 7 literally to an ancient Israelite king (Solomon?). In fact, the trinitarian NASB Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Ps. 45:1, "Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ."

And the highly trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970, explains in a footnote for this verse:

"The Hebrew king was called ... 'God,' not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient pagans, but as meaning 'godlike' or taking the place of God'."
---scott on 9/1/11


"Interpretation is wrong." Mark_V

You might consider becoming familiar with the topic at hand before jumping in. In reality you have helped me make my point to Micha9344 in response to his post on 8/29/11.

This wasn't about Proskuneo (Gk) or Shachah (Heb), but about the English word "Worship". The meaning has changed over time. Wycliff's translation shows that it originally had a broader meaning than it does today.

While (in English) "worship" could include the meaning of honor or dignity it now, generally, carries a fairly narrow connotation of reverence directed toward God.

Witnesses never "worshipped" Jesus Christ with the narrow meaning attached to it today.
---scott on 8/31/11


Scott, I do know one thing, that interpretation is wrong, why? Because of the Second Commandment, and God does not contradict Himself and later say, worship your father and mother. Not a chance. You can use man's words in order to try to make what you believe fit your theology, but I will use the Word of God. You then use that intepretation to make your point. Sound pretty rediculous to me since you already know what the First and Second Commandments are. Just more false heretical doctrines to prove a lie. David uses what the RCC teaches to make his point and he too is wrong.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


And when I use the word chant you are well aware that I'm talking about rote prayer being said over and over and over and over and over and over----such as the RCC rosary!!
---mima on 8/30/11


You mean like Psalm 136 :

"Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.
to him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever."
---Ruben on 8/30/11




David 2: The Bible tells us we are saved by grace through faith, faith in the Son of God. Not a created angel. "He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself" If we do not have that, what witness do we have worth possessing? First, then, we lay it down as undeniable Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, as God. This is the express testimony of the Father Himself,
"But to the Son He says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever" ( Heb. 1:8). Is it not clear from this express declaraton from the Father's own lips, that the Son of God, and God as being the Son? How else is He "the brightness of God's glory, and the express image of His Person"? (Heb. 1:3).
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


Okay here's on that testifies directly about Christ is God.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

now my question to those who will disagree,
1 did i lie?
2 did the translator lie?
3 did i not understand?
4 am i now anathema?
---andy3996 on 8/30/11


Sorry Rob, I didn't see your question. Yes at John 14:9 ('seen me, seen the Father also') and John 10:30.

For the context at John 14:9, note also verse 10, 'Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me?'

Jesus is talking of unity of purpose. Jesus is at 'one' with his Father in carrying out his Father's will and purpose- John 10:30.

Ultimately, Jesus said (again in the context of John 14)- 'the Father is greater than I am'- John 14:28. The resurrected Jesus is also subject to his Father- 1 Cor.15:28.

The rendering of John 1:1 you gave is a polytheist, trinitarian rendering. I worship only one God- Jehovah. Jo.1:1 reads, 'the Word was a god'.
---David8318 on 8/30/11


However Wycliffe defined 'worship' does not define its meaning today. 'Worship' could have a totally different meaning today c700 years later.

In the KJV (Genesis 1:28)'replenish' is used. When translated this word meant 'fill.' Today it means 'refill', totally reversing this verses meaning.



A little study may show 'worship' today having a very different meaning than that meant by Wycliffe.

More to the point is to consider to whom 'worship' is directed

When directed towards God the Son it refers to one who is in very nature God (Philippians 2:6), who asks us to pray to Him (John 14:4), who is Creator, Saviour, Redeemer and the Rock.
---Warwick on 8/30/11


John 1:1
"In The Beginning Was The WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD."
Can it be any plainer.
---Harold on 8/30/11




leej, i.m shocked, the OT is fulfillment in the new. No salvation in the OT filfilled in the New?. Have you not read Hebrews?
When the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true, you think they searched the NT...

Then WHAT makes you think anything you say is not more than what Joseph Smith stated was truth?And exactly how did Peter or Paul convince the Jews in Acts that Jesuss was the Christ? Looks to me they quoted and proved through OT scripture.

How many heritics are here on CN??? So Jesus quoted New Testament too ?

Sorry leej, your hostile answer without thinking first leaves you without any credibility.

NO wonder you have NO influendce on anything you say.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


alan8566_of_uk: mima said, "I would caution all that use idols and chants and responsive prayer readings that they are not fulfilling God request that we pray in truth and spirit.

alan8566_of_uk said, "That Mima is purely your judgmental view."

That, alan, is the biblical view.

alan8566_of_uk said, "Also,
Is it not a responsive prayer chant, Mima, when you lead someone in your "sinners's prayer"?"

Any prayer, as in the "sinners's prayer", that is repeated is from the head, not the heart.
---Steveng on 8/30/11


Matthew quotes Isaiah 40:3 in Mt 3:3 when speaking of John the Baptist announcing the coming of the Messiah.

For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Howbeit in Isaiah 40:3 the spelling is LORD meaning Jehovah.

Not a good verse for those who belong to the JW camp!
---leej on 8/30/11


MarkV has been given every opportunity to show me and everyone else where the Bible says 'Jesus is God' and where JW's and the NWT have got it all wrong.
---David8318 on 8/30/11

I have asked repeatedly for someone in your line of thinking to explain this verse, and specifically the parts of Who is being spoken of and what is the fullness of Deity:

Col 2:9 "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"
---Mark_Eaton on 8/30/11


SCOTT, Roman Catholics believe the title "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" only to be applicable to the Catholic Church.
wouldn't you agree that today's RCC is totally different then the RCC 100 year ago? if so many changes can occur in a hundred year how much will have changed in 1500 years. NEVERHTELESS, it really doesnt matter concerning the early creeds what the church believes today, we are obliged to see what was meant when it was written. because as to my knowledge, the creeds all where written to deal with heresies (like rejection of Christ GOD and MAN) of that particular day.
therfore when i read a creed of 381AD i see it through the eyes of 381AD
---andy3996 on 8/30/11


"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)."-Rutherford, Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.339
SO GOD COMMANDS US TO BREAK THE TEN COMMANDS and HAVE OTHER elohim BEFORE HIM? if christ isn't God then nothing can justify worshipping or praying to Him.

Unless CHRIST IS GOD then we are without sin in worshipping and bowing before HIM.

I think the JW'S should once finally make up their mind in what they really believe.
---andy3996 on 8/30/11


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"Don't know where you got that Wycliffe interpreted (honor) as a replacement for (Worship)...don't think Wycliffe was that dumb. Stop inventing stuff" Mark_V

"Replacement for worship"? "Interpreted Honor"? No, I said he rendered (translating from the Vulgate) Matthew 19:19 and John 12:26 using the word "worship".

Inventing stuff? Do your homework to avoid embarrassment.

"worschipe thi fadir and thi modir, and, thou schalt loue thi neiybore as thi silf." Wycliff, Matheu 19:19

"If ony man serue me, sue he me, and where Y am, there my mynystre schal be. If ony man serue me, my fadir schal worschipe hym." Wycliff, John 12:26
---scott on 8/30/11


True it is my writing but I believe it is the Bible that is judgmental about such actions.

And when I use the word chant you are well aware that I'm talking about rote prayer being said over and over and over and over and over and over----such as the RCC rosary!!
---mima on 8/30/11


David, why won't you answer the question I asked you on 8/29/11?
---Rob on 8/30/11


\\Interesting leej, you place NO OT scripture here.\\

Is it necessary?

\\ SALVATION was first formulated on the Old and flfilled in the New.\\

That's arguable.

\\ yet you fail to use OT scripture to formulate the Godhead. \\

kathr, you yourself did not mention Genesis 19, when Abraham bowed down to the figure of the Trinity and addressed them collectively as YHVH.

Or in the Psalms, where it says, "By the WORD of YHVH were the heavens made, and all their hosts by the SPIRIT of His mouth."

And Revelation is NOT in the OT, as you claimed.

Gloty to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/30/11


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I would caution all that use idols and chants and responsive prayer readings that they are not fulfilling God request that we pray in truth and spirit.
---mima on 8/26/11

That Mima is purely your judgmental view.

Also,
Is it not a responsive prayer chant, Mima, when you lead someone in your "sinners's prayer"?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/30/11


MarkV- Where is the verse you want to show everyone where Jehovah's Witnesses have got it all wrong? The Bible says 'Jesus is God' so shouts MarkV.-

'You follow the New World Translation, which tried to remove anything that would say Jesus is God.'- MarkV 8/29/11.

MarkV has been given every opportunity to show me and everyone else where the Bible says 'Jesus is God' and where JW's and the NWT have got it all wrong.

Neo-Platonic trinitarianism has made MarkV impotent, because he cannot find any scriptures that say 'Jesus is God'- why? Because it is not a Bible teaching. MarkV and trinitarianism teach what is false.
---David8318 on 8/30/11


MarkV- you live in a world of your own. You were wrong about the meaning of the Greek word 'stauros' on the other thread, and you are wrong about Jehovah's Witnesses on this one.

You insist JW's worship Jesus Christ when they do not. Your internet source is incorrect. JW's worship Jehovah as instructed by Jesus Christ- Mt.4:10.

In addition to looking for the scripture that says 'Jesus is God', can you also show us all where the Bible says 'Eternal Son of God'? I'll make it easy for you- you won't find any. It's only in your mind.

Jesus existed long before he came to earth. Problem for trinitarians is that their pagan trinity doctrine negates the Christ. They don't believe in Christ because they say 'Jesus is God'.
---David8318 on 8/30/11


Scott, I don't know where you got that Wycliffe interpreted (honor) as a replacement for (Worship). I don't think Wycliffe was that dumb. Stop inventing stuff. The verse reads "Honor your father, and your mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself" Jesus never told anyone to worship their families.
No where in those passages is worship mention. Just another smoke screen.
---Mark_V. on 8/30/11


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The doctrine of the Trinity while not formalized until later, is based exclusively upon Scripture. Many verses of the Bible speak of the 3 beings - Mt. 3:16-17, 2 Cor. 13:14, Mt. 28:19, 1 Cor. 12,4-6, Eph. 4:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2, Jude 20-21, 1 John 5:7???, John 1:1-2, 2 Cor. 3:17 as well as a few others.

leej//

Interesting leej, you place NO OT scripture here. SALVATION was first formulated on the Old and flfilled in the New. yet you fail to use OT scripture to formulate the Godhead.

How about Isaiah 44:6, 41:4 Rev 1:8, Isaiah 48:12 Rev 22:13.

NOW use these OT scriptures FIRST to prove your point.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


The point is leej, yu will never prove Jesus Christ is GOD just by using NT scriptures to prove it. When Jesus spoke He never proved Himself by NT scriptures. He quoted OT scriptures.

He stood in the Temple and preached right out of Isaiah 61 to PROVE who He was/IS. Read Luke 4:18-30 to see teh reaction of those who heard Him. They wanted to KILL Him right then.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/11


"Worship" Micha9344

That change was not a theological one, but one based on an increasingly more narrow 'meaning' of the English word "worship" over time.

The English word "Worship" means worthship, or honor paid to dignity or worth (in addition to what is directed toward God). This usage survives in the [British] expression 'your worship.' In the marriage service of the English Church occurs the phrase (or used to), 'With my body I thee worship.'

Wycliffe rendered Matthew 19:19, 'Worship thy father and thy mother,' and John 12:26, 'If any man serve me, my Father shall worship him."

This is the only sense in which JWs understood 'worship' as it's directed toward Christ.
---scott on 8/29/11


"You think He became the Son of God at birth." Mark_V

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe this. But don't let the facts get in the way of your well-researched criticisms.

Question Mark_V-

1 Cor 8:5, 6 Reads:


"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." NIV

Who is God according to these verses?
---scott on 8/29/11


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"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)."-Rutherford, Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.339
---micha9344 on 8/29/11


The doctrine of the Trinity while not formalized until later, is based exclusively upon Scripture. Many verses of the Bible speak of the 3 beings - Mt. 3:16-17, 2 Cor. 13:14, Mt. 28:19, 1 Cor. 12,4-6, Eph. 4:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2, Jude 20-21, 1 John 5:7???, John 1:1-2, 2 Cor. 3:17 as well as a few others.

Those that would reject the Trinity are those that have to believe there are 3 gods, not one God consisting of 3 entities or personages.

NWT John 1:1 in [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with with God, and the Word was a god.

The translation 'a god' violates what is known as Colwell's law which the JWs admit is true, however, refuse to acknowledge the problem with their translation.
---leej on 8/29/11


"Mainline Christianity" andy3996

The Reformation dates between 1517 and 1648. What "mainline" or "GENERALLY ACCEPTED FAITH[s]" existed in 381 CE?

"Roman Catholics believe the title "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" only to be applicable to the Catholic Church...directly founded by Christ... Further, they maintain that the Catholic Church...is "the one, true Church of Christ" that does not include those groups that have emerged from the Protestant Reformation. They are considered by Roman Catholics to be "false" claimants."

'The marks of the church (Nicene Creed)'. National Catholic Reporter, August 8, 2008 Richard Brien
---scott on 8/29/11


"The Nicene Creed (325) and other local creeds did this [described the three-in-one trinity] BEFORE the Athanasian." Cluny

As was the case with your statement (in all caps no less) that the Coptic language "DOES NOT" have an indefinite article, this too is false.

The Nicene Creed only states that the HS is 'believed in', not that it is equal to the Father or Son...or is God. That came later in 381.

Somehow I believe that you already knew this.

What other (earlier) creeds are you referring to that describe the Father, Son and HS as 3 persons in one God?
---scott on 8/29/11


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David, is there anywhere in the Jehovah Witness Bible where Jesus said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father", and "the Father and I are one"?

How about, in tne beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God?
---Rob on 8/29/11


I suppose that it has been demonstrated that not only have ten professing christians unable to agree on a single core doctrine, it seems very unlikely that even five can agree.

Disagreement is common and essential among men, but such acerbic language is completely unnecessary, especially among those who claim to speak in the name of the same God.

What does such virulent division say about professing believers?
---Allan on 8/29/11


David, many have showed you passages after passages, and no matter the amount, you are not willing either to believe He is the eternal Son of God. You say you do but you really don't. You think He became the Son of God at birth. You do not study for the Truth, you study for the right of the Jehovah Witnesses and in so doing you follow error after error. So you will not listen to Truth no matter if it is right in your face. Your own Charter says the worship of Christ. You cannot explain the error after error the witnesses have shown. All you can do is be a slave to their cause. You are not willing to accept the Truth. And no one can make you, God has to reveal it to you, in order for you to be willing.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


David 2: "Now hear what the Father says to the Son,
"Your Throne, O God, is forever and ever" A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You. With the oil of gladness more than Your companions" And, You, Lord in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands" (v.10-12) quoted from Ps. 102:25-27). The Son who created the universe (John 1:1-3) one day will destroy the heavens and earth that He created but He remains unchange. Once again an O.T. testifies of the Son's Deity. Immutability is yet another characteristic of the Divine essence.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


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Are there two Fathers?

Jesus could not perform the miracles he did without the help of the Father. Jesus said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." The prayer example Jesus gave did not say "Our Jesus", but instead said "Our Father", for the father is who we must worship. There is but one God, the Father, OF whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we by him.

John 5:30
John 10:25-38
John 12:49
John 13:3
John 14:10-31
John 16:23
Ephesians 3:14
Colossians 1:3
1 John 2:1

---Steveng on 8/29/11


MarkV- I do follow the Bible, it's just that you are so steeped in false religion and pagan worship you can't see it. Shows us from your Bible where it says 'Jesus is God'. Show me and everyone else where JW's have got it all wrong and the Bible says 'Jesus is God'.

You are a Neo-Platonist trinitarian, majoring in Hellenic philosophy to understand your 'God'.

The only form of defence you have is to misrepresent Jehovah's Witnesses with lies. JW's have not changed the Bible. It was abundantly clear right from the beginning that the trinity was/is a pagan false doctrine. It stands to reason that you cannot be a trinitarian and a Christian- they are a contradiction in terms.
---David8318 on 8/29/11


MarkV, again you are wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses do know how the NWT was translated. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise the errors found in your trinitarian translations.

For example, MarkV and Hellenic trinitarians mistranslate John 17:11 by including the word 'name' twice, when it only appears once. They do this to corrupt the Bible, changing it to make it appear Jesus has the same 'name' as the Father.

Also John 14:14- trinitarians corrupt this verse by deceitfully inserting 'me' in this verse (from the 3rd Century onward) twisting Jesus' words- 'if you ask anything (of me) in my name', thus making it appear we are to pray to Jesus. NWT and KjV are in agreement with eachother on the correct rendering.
---David8318 on 8/29/11


David 3: you also said,
"God's word the Bible is the standard by which one is judged- not on your opinions. The Bible does not teach Jesus is God,"
If it is the standard by which one is judged, why don't you follow it? You follow the New World Translation, which tried to remove anything that would say Jesus is God. Yet, even with all the changes they failed to strip Christ of His Deity. They will have to revise that bible again, and since they keep changing their believes they change their theology. Now they have a bible that fits their teachings but not quit. The average witness does not know how his bible came to be, who translated it, or how good or dependable the translation is. The witnesses just accept it as truth.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


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MarkV- you are wrong and you need to check your internet source. You are promoting internet lies. Jehovah's Witnesses have never worshipped Jesus Christ. Their worship is directed only to Jehovah God.

In 1884, the stated aim of the Watchtower Society (the legal corporation of Jehovah's Witnesses) has been to 'uphold the worship of Jehovah God, advocate his kingdom of righteousness under Christ Jesus as the only hope of mankind.'

So as usual MarkV, you promote internet lies regarding an organisation whose sole aim is to understand the scriptures and of course to expose your belief's as pagan, false and Babylonian. While JW's were interested in directing people to Jehovah, your religion directed its adherents to the trenches.
---David8318 on 8/29/11


//scott, in risking to repeat myself the "catholic faith in the athanasian creed" did NOT relate to the RCC, but it pointed out...//

andy, do not worry about repeating what is truthful. scot has no problem repeating what is mis,eading.
---aka on 8/29/11


David, your wrong. You said,
"When asked regarding the issue of worship, Christ said- 'it is Jehovah God you must worship'. Matthew 4:10."
Jesus didn't want anyone to worship Him in His humanity. But He is God in His divine nature. In your Charter of the Watchtower Society of Pennsylvania, Article II, the purpose of the Watchtower Society are given. One of these purpose states:"And for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus But witnesses today teach no worship to Christ, that He was a perfect man, He was not crucified, that He was impaled on a torture stake. In contrast to their earliar books, which pictures depicting the Crucifixion and Christ on the Cross, now they change their terminology.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


David 2: Witness teaching regarding Jesus Christ almost entirely ignore the New Testament. Even though they published hundreds of books, there has to this day been one on the life of Christ. Did the witnesses ever worship Christ? Yes they did. Today's witnesses know that they are taught not to worship Jesus, which has create a problem among the older Witnesses, who are observant of the changes. My uncle was one of them. They have been told now that the word "worship" has different degrees and meanings, so that when one of you is confronted, you will say, well, yes, we do worship Jesus "but" we don't worship Him in the same way we worship God. The same thing the Catholics say about saints and Mary.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11


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The classical Creeds were composed by men who had suffered prison, stripes, torture, wounds, exile, and even death for the sake of the truth.

They wanted to make sure we met the genuine Jesus, not a counterfeit Christ.

What has anyone here suffered for His sake?

Who is ANYONE here to lightly dismiss these summaries of faith?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/28/11


Isaiah 44:6 God identifies Himself as the Beginning and End, and there is only ONE GOD.

Revelation Jesus declares Himself Alpha and Onega, Beginning and End, First and Last THE ALMIGHTY.

There are not TWO Alpha and Omegs's Beginning and End and First and Last, and there are NOT TWO "I AM"'s in Scripture.

Just for those who say the Son was not God.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/11


//For GOD so loved the world...//
That he said
Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
It takes more than Jn 3:16
---michael_e on 8/28/11


The "single, core christian doctrine" is simply...

... to love. A simple word. A word that encompasses all the other lows and commandments. Unfortunately, christians can readily define the word, but does not know HOW to do it. Genuine love will get you into heaven.
---Steveng on 8/28/11


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MarkV- you are wrong regarding Jehovah's Witnesses. They are Christian, and do believe Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

God's word the Bible is the standard by which one is judged- not on your opinions. The Bible does not teach Jesus is God, but Jesus is 'the Christ, the Son of God'- John 20:31. This is what the Bible teaches, this is what JW's believe.

When asked regarding the issue of worship, Christ said- 'it is Jehovah God you must worship'. Matthew 4:10.

Yet again MarkV, it is not surprising that a Neo-Platonist trinitarian should misrepresent JW's. By the way, you cannot be a trinitarian and a Christian- they are a contradiction in terms.
---David8318 on 8/26/11


JIM:
As a matter of clarification, I was not suggesting, by any means, that Jesus did not die for ALL sins. The point I made was related directly to the initial question, hence, the statement.

The statement referred to the human practice of belief, rather than to the absolute reality of what Jesus did.

A more significant issue is that even professing Christians who claim to believe that Jesus died for their sins, are still tortured by feelings of guilt and shame over sins that have been forgiven them. That is a present reality.
---Allan on 8/26/11


Hear is an idea.

I am going to state one of the christian fundamental tenets, how many of you believe it, as stated. Just answer yes or no.

Statement:

When Jesus died on the cross, He died for every single sin committed by every single human being.

Is that statement true or not true?
---Allan on 8/26/11


\\The (classic) Athanasian Creed (381ce) for the first time described the three-in-one trinity. In part it says:

"He that will be saved let him think upon the trinity."

Actually, Scott, the Nicene Creed (325) and other local creeds did this BEFORE the Athanasian.

\\It also says:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. ,,,\\

And I noticed you did NOT quote the next line which defines what is meant by "catholic faith." Why?

"Catholic" is used here as the opposite of "Arianism" and "Pnevmatomachianism", which denied the deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


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It depends who the ten people are, if they are Christianed then Yes, but if they are ten NonChristians then No.
---Eloy on 8/26/11


Mark, Originally I asked whether Christians can live in disobedience to the 10 Commandments. Obviously some cannot handle this question, feeling challenged by it, they have become annoyed and evasive in their answers.

You know I have never said anyone can be saved by adherence to Commandments, or works.

We know from Jeremiah 31:33, and Hebrews 10:16 that God has put His laws in our hearts and minds.

Barnes' notes on the Bible say "not a new law, but a new power to the old law."

So my question to you is: The law which is upon our hearts, and in our minds does this not include that which was commanded and that which was condemned in the 10 Commandments?
---Warwick on 8/27/11


scott, in risking to repeat myself the "catholic faith in the athanasian creed" did NOT relate to the RCC, but it pointed out to the
GENERALLY ACCEPTED FAITH (described in the creeds)of mainline Christianity.
why do you think the orthodox church accepts this creed? and the protestants do not contend it.
---andy3996 on 8/27/11


//It also says:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."
---scott on 8/26/11

again, a deceitful misdirection.

it says catholic faith and not Catholic Faith. The former means universal faith and not the Catholic religion.
---aka on 8/27/11


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Scott, the Athanasian Creed of ( 381) is correct as far as the Trinity is concern. Not the rest that you quoted. Because what you next quoted had nothing to do with the Trinity but the Catholic faith. And the Catholic faith has many traditions from the Roman Catholic Church that are not Scriptual. But a Christian has to believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in order to be called a Christian. You do not believe this so you are not a Christian. For you deny the eternal Sonship of Christ. If persons are free to question the explicit statements of Scripture on the basis of higher criticism, they can make what they want depending on their own believes.
---Mark_V. on 8/27/11


John 3:16 is all anyone has to know. If only people would really believe this one verse, we would all agree and be of one mind.
*****

"believe" this ONE verse YET accept lies of hell and immortal soul both unsupported by Holy Scripture and this is one of many verses that demonstrate the VAST contradictions ...impossibility of people burning in a fairy tale hell forever seeing this ONE verse says SHALL not perish

believe John 3:16 as given by men or the Word Christ Jesus?

"belief" on ONE verse is foolish ...GOD seeks those who worship in TRUTH and Spirit not a-la-carte
---Rhonda on 8/27/11


Agreement from 10 people? we'll have to go very vague and non-descriptive to get agreement, so here goes...

There Is A God.

9 others agree with this, right?
---James_L on 8/27/11


"Classic Creeds" - Cluny

The (classic) Athanasian Creed (381ce) for the first time described the three-in-one trinity. In part it says:

"He that will be saved let him think upon the trinity."

It also says:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."
---scott on 8/26/11


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John 3:16 is all anyone has to know. If only people would really believe this one verse, we would all agree and be of one mind.
For GOD so loved the world...
---duane on 8/26/11


There are people who claim to be Christians, but they aren't. And if they are wrong, you will not get them to agree with ones who are right.

Along with the basic Gospel and Jesus being the way to God (John 14:6), I would say Christians need to trust that God is our Father, meaning He desires to personally relate and share with each of His children, and personally rule us in our hearts with His own peace > "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Hence the doctrine: God is personal (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 8/26/11


Willa, how can you speak for Christians when you are against the Christian faith? How do you know what Christians think? Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians and socinian's are not of the Christian faith. They all deny the eternal Son of God. Mark E. is correct, all Christians believe Christ in His nature is God. You don't.
---Mark_V. on 8/26/11


\\23-"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
---mima on 8/26/11\\

Did you notice that this is a Trinitarian reference, mima?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


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One thing I am certain any Christian agrees with,
---willa5568 on 8/25/11

One thing I thought all "Christians" believed in was that Jesus is God.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/26/11


Christ is God himself, who came in the flesh.
Christ died for us to reconciliate us
Christ rose from the death
Christ is king eternal

anyone that does not believe the above is not a CHRISTIAN
on the other hand how to believe itt is the next part in the discussion

it amazes me that often we THINK MORE ALIKE THEN WE WANT TO ADMIT.
---andy3996 on 8/26/11


Probably not a single thing
---michael_e on 8/26/11


Concerning prayer Jesus said this to the woman at the well. John 4:20-21
"20-Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21-Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22-Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews"
23-"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
---mima on 8/26/11


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\\I would caution all that use idols and chants and responsive prayer readings that they are not fulfilling God request that we pray in truth and spirit.
---mima on 8/26/11\\

And why are chants and responsive reading NOT spiritually fulfilling or Godly?

Read Psalm 136 (Hebrew numbering). It's CLEARLY intended to be sung, or rather chanted, in a responsive way.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


I would caution all that use idols and chants and responsive prayer readings that they are not fulfilling God request that we pray in truth and spirit.
---mima on 8/26/11


\\The creeds are a perfect example of the sin of formalism. \\

Are they? What proof do you have? And why is "formalism" a sin. Jesus Himself took a leading part in very formal Jewish services and rituals.

\\With the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ such things were done away with.
---mima on 8/25/11\\

Were they?

Which of the classical creeds do you actually know, mima, and with what parts of them do you disagree?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11


Allan said this:

I may agree with your general conclusions as stated, but I am sure that there would be questions raised as to whom "our" refers and whether the "sins" refers to all sins or just some sins.

Allan, here's a question for you. When Jesus died on the cross for your sins, how many of them were in the future? I'll give you a hint. All of them were. That would include past,present and future sins.
---JIM on 8/25/11


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One thing I am certain any Christian agrees with, is Christ was resurrected and he is coming again to establish his kingdom. If we don't then as Paul said, "our faith is in vain and we are to be pitied among all men".
---willa5568 on 8/25/11


Yes! It is the Lord Jesus Christ. On which the door of history swings and what you do with the Lord Jesus Christ will determine your destination.
---mima on 8/25/11


Cluny wrote,"Some people have said that the creeds are divisive. Indeed they are!"
The creeds are used by people practicing role prayer. The creeds are a perfect example of the sin of formalism.
With the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ such things were done away with.
---mima on 8/25/11


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