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Behavior After Salvation

How does our old ways, old habits, old behavior patterns change after we become Born Again and saved from the wrath of God? Do we change or does God change it and how does that happen?

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 ---Donna5535 on 8/30/11
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Francis:
By faith our old man is dead. We're a new spiritual creation. The law also is spiritual. We're with God, spiritually. We keep the law here.

But we both know in the physical realm Christians still do wrong. Whilst they don't worship idols etc they may slip up and lie, etc.

As you know to offend in ONE point you are guilty of ALL.

What I ask, since you judge according to what you see in the flesh, how do you handle the fact YOU are NOT a doer of the law?

Even though SDA's try hard to keep all the law they FAIL.
Therefore they are GUILTY of ALL and NOT justified according to SDA doctrine.
I don't understand how you can preach such legalism when you fail and are guilty of ALL yourself.

---Haz27 on 9/7/11


Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Those born of God's Spirit will seek not to sin as one can expect God, liken to a father, to discipline those whom He loves. Hebrews 12:6.

Howbeit, according to what we read in Scripture, there is no prohibitions on what we may eat. I believe Jesus made that abundantly clear in Mt. 15 and Mk. 7 that whatever goes into the stomach does not defile one.

1Co 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

we can also read Romans 14.

Those that do these kind of things have a need to feel religious and desire some means of measuring themselves against others.
---leej on 9/7/11


Where we differ Francis is that you claim the impossible, for the flesh to perfectly keep the 10 commandments. But you miss the fact that the law is SPIRITUAL.

And YOU FAIL in the flesh to keep the whole law so YOU, Francis, are GUILTY of ALL, including Sabbath, worshipping Baal, etc.

Whilst we do often see Christians change for the better in their behaviour, in the flesh, it would never be perfect enough as SDA's demand under the law.
Yet the SDA's fail themselves and their doctrine condemns them.

But there is NO condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus Rom8:1



---Haz27 on 9/7/11


Those things would be a noticable change in his life, and would be a testiment to his faith
---Francis on 9/7/11

I see it this way too above. And think Leej question is noted below.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

And think that a reason some feel the pull too obedience or recognizes the tug toward out-lawry is below.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them,
---Trav on 9/7/11


I can appreciate your view of not belong to any particular denomination....
And I have often gone to churches and was not a member for years.
---leej on 9/7/11


You know then what I'm saying. One can go to any Church as a christian and find called out ones.

But,world has turned. The sick are supposed to be outside the Ecclesia/Box.

I'm thinking the sick,deaf and blind be in the boxes now in a wide way.

Denominalist have issues to deal with I don't, they may feel exposed,superior,threatened agitated, picked on etc, etc.

Support? Now you are bringing money into it. I support what ever comes into my sphere in need.

Again....your denom now is?
---Trav on 9/7/11




Trav //The Greek word "ecclesia" is correctly defined: "the called-out (ones)" [ECC = out, KALEO = call].

The idea advanced by Augustine of Hippo was that there were actually 2 churches - one composed of true believers invisible except to God and that of the visible church composed of those seen in a building or denomination.

I can appreciate your view of not belong to any particular denomination but hopefully the church you attend does get your support. We have a few in our church who never commit themselves to membership. And I have often gone to churches and was not a member for years.
---leej on 9/7/11


After salvation one would stop stealing. Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more:
stop lying: Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another,
Honour his parents:Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,
Stop eating blood:Acts 15:20 abstain from blood
stop commiting adultery Hebrews 13:4 adulterers God will judge.
stop taking God's name in vain: 1 Timothy 6:1 the name of God be not blasphemed.
Start keeping the sabbath: Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
along with drunkenness, idolatry, and ALL other sins.
Those things would be a noticable change in his life, and would be a testiment to his faith
---Francis on 9/7/11


// do not want to missunderstand you, but I am getting the idea a born again person can do anything he wants since it is only the flesh who does it and not the spirit.

Did the Apostle Paul have a problem with sin?

Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Does sin dwell within Francis? Or is he always obedient to God's will?

I think we find that anyone born of His Spirit hates sin, but will find it in his life while he is still living in the flesh.

Fortunately the Christian has a father-son relationship with the Lord to guide him into those ways that benefit us.
---leej on 9/7/11


Jerry //"Those who reject God's 10 commandments do not know him plain and simple" and that statement is a slanderous judgment against every true Christian that has ever lived but have not observed the Jewish Sabbath"

I reject Francis' view that those of the early church - the Apostles and their immediate successors who did not observe the OT sabbath was not Christians.

The OT sabbath was not commanded of Gentile believers nor was it taught in the early Gentile church.
---leej on 9/7/11


--Haz27 on 9/7/11
This is where I am not understanding you. i do need you to be clear for me.
Lets say that i choose to go to work on my barbar shop this sabbath, can I say that it is my flesh which is working on the sabbath but not my spirit?
Or lets say that i choose to be in bed with a person who is married to another, can i say that it is only my flesh which is commiting adultery and not my spirit?
Or if i as a christian also worship Baal, can i say it is only my flesh and not my spirit?

I do not want to missunderstand you, but I am getting the idea that a born again person can do anything he wants since it is only the flesh who does it and not the spirit. What about 1 corithians 5?
---Francis on 9/7/11




How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, ...

And Yes God does the drawing to believe...
---leej on 9/6/11

Ur post above. Peace. Peace found in truth. Peace with other Christ seekers. Not the wolf or the money grubber or adverse brother.
Try dropping the word Church and replacing with Ecclesia just as an exercise to prove me wrong, perhaps.
The denom box is not what scripture meant, we all know this somewhat. Take it farther. Online Ben Williams on ecclesia does a nice piece of investigating, i discovered a minute ago.
The Greek word "ecclesia" is correctly defined: "the called-out (ones)" [ECC = out, KALEO = call].
---Trav on 9/7/11


we should avoid two extremes.
The first is accepting the rules and applications of principles to become as a means of salvation. "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ, you have fallen away from grace"

The opposite extreme is believing that since works do not save, they are therefore unimportantthat what a person does really doesn't matter. "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature" .

we can never earn salvation by correct behavior. Rather, Christian behavior is a natural fruit of salvation and is grounded in what Christ has already accomplished for us at Calvary.

SDA believe page 280
---Francis on 9/6/11


yes, Haz27, you are free to not to undergo physical circumcision for yourself and male children. And you do not have to bear children from your dead brothers wife (Mt. 22:24f) or observe any law that is not applicable to the Christian.

The Jerusalem council Acts 15 should have settled that issue for us.

Many OT laws have been given ONLY to the nation of Israel (the Sabbath, the dietary laws) or were fulfilled with the coming of Christ (Mt. 5:17). We see no command in the New Covenant for Christians on these issues.

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will NOT BE ENSLAVED by anything (and that includes anything from the fleshly nature).
---leej on 9/7/11


(1 Peter 2:24)
by his wounds you have been healed.


Jesus healed the blind, and their blindness was gone.
Jesus healed the leper, and their leprosy was gone.
Jesus brought the dead back to life, and they lived.

If Jesus heals a sinner, why do they continue to sin?
---David on 9/7/11


Francis:
Christ is in us, our body is DEAD because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness Rom8:10

Christians are righteous in Christ. We keep the law in spirit, not in the flesh.
Remember the law is spiritual (Rom7:14). What the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (Rom8:3).

Why do SDA teach you are not Christian if you do not obey 10 commandments in the flesh when ALL SDA's fail to do this and therefore are guilty of ALL, including Sabbath?

You and I are GUILTY of them ALL, if judging the flesh. Why make this your cause when it should be Christ in us?


---Haz27 on 9/7/11


Lee of many names: "Those who reject God's 10 commandments do not know him plain and simple" and that statement is a slanderous judgment against every true Christian that has ever lived but have not observed the Jewish Sabbath"

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

You are no longer ignorant of God's Ten Commandments. What's your excuse now?
---jerry6593 on 9/7/11


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leej:
We agree regarding legalism, however:

1John3:9 means Christians CANNOT sin. It doesn't contradict 1John1:8.

If 1John1 is read from start note it's evangelical context.
It "bears witness", "declares",
"eternal life" so others "also may have fellowship", with the "Father" and "his Son".

Note verse 6 "If we (speaking in general terms) say we have fellowship, and walk in DARKNESS (without Christ).."

Verse 8 If we (general terms again) say we have no sin.."
What sin is this?
John16:9 Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world will be convicted of.

As 1Pet4:18 shows you are either righteous OR a sinner. You CANT be both.
---Haz27 on 9/7/11


---Haz27 You keep saying that to offend in one point is to be guilty of the whole law. We BOTH agree on that. Sorry i just do not get what you are trying to say
So let me ask you plainly:
Please answer plainly so we can understand each other:

1: Are you saying that you are free to:
1. worship other gods.
2. worship idols.
3. misuse God's name.
4. Do Not keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Dishonor our father & mother.
6. Murder.
7. Commit adultery.
8. Steal.
9. Lie.
10.Covet.

because you are born of God and cannot sin?

Or are you saying that yuo keep them all perfectly in the spirit but not in the flesh?
---Francis on 9/6/11


Did you notice how both sinner and ungodly are often referred together?
---Haz27 on 9/6/11

Haz
Yes, and that's the point I'm trying to make.
They are listed as two distinct types of people who will not be saved.
Peter gives three categories of people, when many seem to think that there are four.

Who is the sinner in (1 Peter 4:18), if it not those who sin?
If there is such a thing as the saved sinner, why didn't Peter list the Righteous Sinner in this verse?
---David on 9/6/11


The BORN AGAIN PERSON BEGINS TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD ALL TEN OF THEM AS A DEMONSTRATION OF FAITH AND KNOWLEDGE OF GOD

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God ( THE FATHER).

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God ( THE FATHER), and the faith of Jesus.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God ( THE FATHER), and keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
---Francis on 9/6/11


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Anyone can accuse another that is what Satan does. That is why GOD HAS A JUDGMENT.
---Francis on 9/6/11
One only has to read the history of the Adventist movement to see that it is they that have been the accusers of others.

And one accusation you have made is "Those who reject God's 10 commandments do not know him plain and simple" and that statement is a slanderous judgment against every true Christian that has ever lived but have not observed the Jewish Sabbath - a command btw that is not found in the New Testament nor in the teachings of the early church.

Suggest you stop, think and then repent of your shameless sinfulness.
---leej on 9/6/11


//The difference between you and I is I believe on Jesus, my old man is crucified and I'm a new creation. I am born of God and cannot sin.

the term 'cannot sin' in 1 John 3:9 would better be translated as in the New Living Bible.

1 John 3:9 Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

Otherwise we have a contradiction with 1 John 1:8

If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

Francis will continue to have problems with others as he apparently is not born again in Christ nor does he really have a good knowledge of Scripture.

---leej on 9/6/11


David:
Only those in Christ (righteous) are saved.
The sinner along with the ungodly are NOT saved as 1Pet4:18 says.

Did you notice how both sinner and ungodly are often referred together?
---Haz27 on 9/6/11


Francis:
I see you still avoid confronting my point that you are NOT a doer of the law according to SDA doctrine.
As I have seen so often with SDA people, they offend in even more than ONE point which makes them GUILTY of ALL (including Sabbath).

As for myself, my flesh is just as guilty as you are regarding the law.

The difference between you and I is I believe on Jesus, my old man is crucified and I'm a new creation. I am born of God and cannot sin.
---Haz27 on 9/6/11


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/How does our old ways, old habits, old behavior patterns change after we become Born Again and saved from the wrath of God?

Scripture does state we become a new creation in Christ and the Holy Spirit which had begin a good work in us will complete it on the day of Jesus Christ - the final act of sanctification.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

Php. 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

In some cases, there is a dramatic and drastic change, in others it may not be too evident.
---leej on 9/6/11


---Haz27 on 9/5/11
first:
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
I did NOT write it, i just BELIEVE IT, I hope that you do also.

SecondL
Haz27 does not worship other gods, nor does Haz27 take God's name in vain, neither does Haz27 dishonour his parents or commit murder. Haz27 does not worship idols, nor does Haz27 commit adultery. Haz27 does not eat blood nor does Haz27 partake of idol worship. Haz27 does not bare false witness nor does he steal.

SO SURELY Haz27 DOES KEEP THE LAW.

You need to ask Haz27 whether or not Haz27 keeps THE WHOLE LAW or does Haz27 offend in ONE POINT
---Francis on 9/6/11


(1 Peter 4:18)
And, "If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"


In this verse we have three distinct individuals listed,.... the righteous,... the unGodly, ....and the sinner.
The Ungodly are those who have rejected God to be their master.
The sinner is someone who sins, but.... they are not the ungodly.

Question:
What's the difference, between the righteous and the sinner in this verse?
---David on 9/6/11


I would like to think that after salvation one would stop stealing. Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more:
stop lying: Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another,
Honour his parents:Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,
Stop eating blood:Acts 15:20 abstain from blood
stop commiting adultery Hebrews 13:4 adulterers God will judge.
stop taking God's name in vain: 1 Timothy 6:1 the name of God be not blasphemed.
along with drunkenness, idolatry, and a few other sin.
Those things would be a noticable change and would a testiment to his faith
---Francis on 9/6/11


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---micha9344 on 9/5/11
Well then micha9344, same question to you:
If you:
1. worship other gods.
2. worship idols.
3. misuse God's name.
4. Do Not keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Dishonor our father & mother.
6. Murder.
7. Commit adultery.
8. Steal.
9. Lie.
10.Covet.

It would NOT be a sin because YOU HAVE GOD'S HELP?
---Francis on 9/5/11


1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat.

So This is by no means a complete list:
Other lists include:
Acts 15:20 abstain from things strangled, and blood. 1 Corinthians 6:9 adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 thieves, revilers, Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother, Romans 13:9 For not commit adultery, not kill, not steal, not bear false witness, 1 Timothy 6:1 the name of God not blasphemed.
Isaiah 66:23 from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship .
---Francis on 9/5/11


micha9344:
You are correct. Although I hadn't followed those previous attempts to help Francis out of his bondage I imagined that others would have tried anyway. but I thought I would try also.

Francis:
As you believe we are not justified unless we are doers of the law in the flesh, how do you sleep at night knowing that YOU are NOT justified according to your doctrine.

You are GUILTY of ALL, including the Sabbath. You condemn yourself.

John3:18 "He that believes on him is NOT condemned...."
---Haz27 on 9/5/11


Haz27, Francis will not understand without God's help.
He is stuck in his legalistic view until God releases him from his bondage.
There is nothing anyone can say to change this.
It has been tried by many over and over.
---micha9344 on 9/5/11


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--Haz27 on 9/4/11
So then Haz27 If you:
1. worship other gods.
2. worship idols.
3. misuse God's name.
4. Do Not keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Dishonor our father & mother.
6. Murder.
7. Commit adultery.
8. Steal.
9. Lie.
10.Covet.

It would NOT be a sin because born of God?
---Francis on 9/5/11


Francis:
You asked whether I keep the whole law.

Answer:
I (i.e the new creation in Christ. Not the flesh) keep the WHOLE SPIRITUAL law.
My old WEAK man is crucified with Christ. I no longer live but Christ lives in me. Thanks to the cross the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Rom8:4).
My body is DEAD because of sin (Rom8:10).
His SEED (Christ) is in me, I CANNOT sin because I am born of God 1John3:9.

But you still hold onto your old man and judge according to the WEAK flesh. Therefore SDA doctrine says you are NOT a doer of the SPIRITUAL law. SDA doctrine condemns you as you offend in at least ONE point or more. You are guilty of ALL, including Sabbath.

---Haz27 on 9/4/11


Whose old ways?
The elect stood/stand-have already been justified before the foundation of [This World]Rom8:30
The Elect-out of slumber? See.
Those not chosen? Are witnessed to-Forgiveness-.

God's Will---Will be done--Regardless.
1 Cor 15:22 In Adam all shall die, In Christ all shall live
Eph 1:10 All things shall be summed up In-Christ
1 Cor 15:28 God Will become all in all 1 Cor 15:28
[Death]perish Heb 2:14-
Ez 18:4

With the mind renewed by the Word of God--In Spirit one walks.

That is by God [Who is Spirit] confirming His Word.
The Renewed Mind thinks His Word
The Mouth Confesses His Word
The Actions Walk In His Word.
777- By Him-Through Him-for Him

Repentance unto remission
---char on 9/4/11


Haz27 Have you tried asking YOURSELF this question?

" IS Haz27 GUILTY OF OFFENDING IN ONE POINT?"

CLearly Haz27 does not worship other gods, nor does Haz27 take God's name in vain, neither does Haz27 dishonour his parents or commit murder. Haz27 does not worship idols, nor does Haz27 commit adultery. Haz27 does not eat blood nor does Haz27 partake of idol worship. Haz27 does not bare false witness nor does he steal. SO SURELY Haz27 DOES KEEP THE LAW.

You need to ask Haz27 whether or not Haz27 keeps THE WHOLE LAW or does Haz27 offend in ONE POINT
---Francis on 9/4/11


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Christan
Some teach that they are saved by keeping the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant. I teach that we will be saved through keeping the Law of Christ, the New covenant.
What is the Law of Christ?
Many people miss it, but Jesus gave us his commandments in (Matthew 19:18-19).

Jesus said in (Matthew 22:36-40) that the Law hangs on only Two commandments and both are covered in (Matthew 19:18-19).
It is through keeping the Law of Christ, that we are pleasing in the sight of God.(John 14:21)
Those who are seen as righteous, are chosen by God.
When chosen, God removes the Evil from their hearts, that which causes them to sin,(Matthew 25:35) so they can then worship him in all righteousness.
---David on 9/4/11


Francis said: "A man who refuses to keep the law of God cannot be justified in the sight of God
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Francis, note it says the doers of the law, or as James 2:10 puts it, if you "offend in ONE point you are guilty of all". As you have failed on this you are therefore not a doer of the law.

But Jesus Christ did it for us. It's no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me. Why do you refuse to believe?
---Haz27 on 9/4/11


//When someone accepts Jesus as saviour he has faith in what Jesus did on the cross for his salvation
Does not Steal//
Taking from Israel what belongs to Israel is stealing, called spirtual larceny.
---michael_e on 9/4/11


Francis:
You quoted good scriptures.
Re Rom6:16, whose servant are we?
See verse 17,18, we "WERE servants of sin" but we became "servants of righteousness".
John8:34-36 confirms this.

As christan said "are you made righteous in the flesh or in the spirit?"

You know the law is SPIRITUAL and it was WEAK through the flesh.
Why insist our old WEAK man who is crucified with Christ (by faith) is somehow able to PERFECTLY keep the law.

As for Heb 10:26, the truth it speaks of is Jesus is the Christ, our righteousness is in him. If you "sin wilfully" i.e unbelief in Jesus/seeking to be justified by law, well then such are adversaries to God (see verse 27).

---Haz27 on 9/3/11


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--christan on 9/3/11
Simple answers
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS

See a man who does what is RIGHT in the sight of God is called a righteous man, Yet this righteousness is unable to save him. WHY, because ALL HAVE SINNED, so thus he must accept the righteousness of Christ

A man who refuses to keep the law of God cannot be justified in the sight of God

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---Francis on 9/3/11


When someone accepts Jesus as saviour he has faith in what Jesus did on the cross for his salvation.
the NEW MAN:
1. Does not worship other gods.
2. Does not worship idols.
3. Does not misuse God's name.
4. keeps the Sabbath holy.
5. Does not Dishonor our father & mother.
6. Does not Murder.
7. Does not Commit adultery.
8. Does not Steal.
9. Does not Lie.
10. Does not Covet.

That is a CHANGED MAN
The BIBLE says so:
Revelation 14:12 here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus
---Francis on 9/4/11


Donna5553, what happens at rebirth is the beginning in your walk with Christ. The Spirit will not only bring you alive to Christ but also indwell, teaches you, guides you unto all truth, so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gifts that you might need in life, while you wait for the Day of the Lord. Your dispostion changes at rebirth, from enmity against God, to love for Christ. All the work of God. No amount of works a person does can save them, only the perfect works of Christ imputed to the believer can save him.
---Mark_V. on 9/4/11


Francis, Nana & David - you keep flashing the wonderful law of God before our very eyes as if to tell us that you have been made perfect by obeying the law by your own righteousness.

Tell us then,
- have you stopped sinning in your present lives up to this very minute as we are communicating via this blog?
- the "righteousness" you continue to show us from verses in the Scripture, does it refer to your own righteousness or that of our Lord Jesus Christ?
- are you made righteous in the flesh or in the spirit?

Simple questions that require simple answers.
---christan on 9/3/11


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.
---Haz27 on 9/3/11
You are wrong on BOTH counts
1: It is not the SDA church who says that if you do not obey the law of God you will not be saved:
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,

2 There are MANY MANY more blogs posted here about the law that about grace, so it MUST stand to reason that there will be much more responses about the law than grace.
---rancis on 9/3/11


But your post says to me that you think WE can be righteous..
---Mark_Eaton on 9/2/11

Mark
If you look back at what I said, I said those born of God are made Righteous.
And we are made righteous, because Gods seed remains in us, as (1 John 3:9) says.
Since it's Gods seed that has made us righteous, we can not take credit for this change.
We are made righteous because God lives in us.(John 14:21-23)

Mark
Many folks reject this teaching because they have not experienced it.
I would reject it too, if I had not personally experienced it over 10 years ago.
---David on 9/3/11


The Christian that stands before God on judgement day is covered by the Righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith. And unless one is justified by faith, your righteousness are like filthy rags before God.

Many, who call themselves Christians obviously cannot understand the difference between Divine Righteousness (which is Christ's) and human righteousness.
---christan on 9/3/11


Francis said:
"If you think that obedience to God's Law cancells out grace,"

I don't think anyone here on CN said what you claim above.

But what bloggers here oppose is the SDA claim that failure to keep the law cancels out grace.

You place more importance on the law than on grace.
But we know that man is not justified by works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ Gal 2:16.
---Haz27 on 9/3/11


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---JIM on 9/2/11
LOVE THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. keep the Sabbath holy.

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF
5. Do not Dishonor our father & mother.
6. Do not Murder.
7. Do not Commit adultery.
8. Do not Steal.
9. Do not Lie.
10. Do not Covet.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

good?
---Francis on 9/2/11


"You think you can stand before God in YOUR righteousness?"

Mark_Eaton

I stand before God as he says to. He'll judge.

Isaiah 1:16_18 "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil,
Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow,
though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

FYI, John the Baptist came preaching 'Learn to do well"
Luke 3:10 "And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?" He told them, but
what do you care?
---Nana on 9/2/11


Note this last verse says 'IS', it does not say is made or was made.
---Nana on 9/2/11

Really.

You think you can stand before God in YOUR righteousness?

Your verses talk about "doing righteousness". And you conclude from 1 John 3:7 that if you do righteousness you are righteous, correct?

But your verses are listed in the wrong order. 1 John 2:29 says that if you are "doing righteousness", you MUST first be born of Him (Christ). And if you are born of Him (Christ), then you have been made the righteousness of God, in Christ, not in yourself.

2 Cor 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
---Mark_Eaton on 9/2/11


Mark_Eaton,

You may very well do not have any righteousness of your own, as well as morality, ethics, trustworthiness and even common sense....

Here Mark, find the sarcasm on these:

1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
1 John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Rev. 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Note this last verse says 'IS', it does not say is made or was made.
---Nana on 9/2/11


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Frances...you need to realize that if you love God with all your heart,mind,soul and strength and you love your neighbor as your self those 2 commandments fulfill the law.
---JIM on 9/2/11


---Haz27 on 9/2/11
These are question you must ask yourself. however, they have already been answered by God:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

If you think that obedience to God's Law cancells out grace, see 1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat.
---Francis on 9/2/11


I agree with Mark. In Isaiah 64:6 it says, "...and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..."
Righteousness in Christ is a gift. We didn't/can't earn it. It is given to us the day that we make Jesus the Lord of our lives. (2nd Corinthians 5:21, 1st Peter 2:24)

1Peter 3:18 is awesome too. He gave up His righteousness to make us righteous! Hallelujah!
---Rickey on 9/2/11


Does sin please God?
---David on 9/2/11

Your post is rich with sarcasm.

But your post says to me that you think WE can be righteous. But, I dont see that backed up in the Bible. Rather, only God is righteous but He extends His righteousness to us.

You need to study Romans to understand that there is not a righteous person. No matter what we do or the number of commandments we keep. No longer are we condemned to death when we are in Christ, but we are only given the righteousness of God. We have no righteousness of our own.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/2/11


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Francis:
Do you PERFECTLY keep the law or is it simply a "desire" as you mentioned in an earlier post.

If SDA's "desire" to keep the law but fail and offend in just ONE point, then they are guilty of all (James 2:10).

Where does that leave a Christian's salvation according to SDA doctrine?
Lost?
By works of the law?

And yet the criminal on the cross next to Jesus was saved in spite of being a criminal till the day he died.
---Haz27 on 9/2/11


The most obvious change in any believer, especcially one who is not jewish or muslim, once he accepts Jesus as saviour and God as creator, is that he starts to keep the commandments of God.
the adulterer stops commiting adultery, the thief stops stealing, the liar stops lying, the murderer stops murdering, the idolator stops idolatry,The blasphemer stops taking God's name in vain, the heart of the child is turned to his parents.

The believer starts to keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus as the Christ.
Revelation 14:12 here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
---Francis on 9/2/11


---Haz27 on 9/1/11
You do not know what you are talking about.

Which change is more likly in a christian:
GRACE WITH ADULTERY (GRACE AND NO OBEDIENCE TO LAW)
Or
GRACE AND PUTTING AWAY THE OLD MAN OF ADULTERY( GRACE and Obedience to the law)
---Francis on 9/2/11


I guess David and Francis are without sin and will never sin again in your lifetime?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/1/11

Mark
What is Righteousness?
When used in the Bible, Righteousness is when one is pleasing in the sight of God.
Those who have been born of God have been made righteous.
Does sin please God?
---David on 9/2/11


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//I'm wondering HOW she bit off several of the devil's lies and still be "in Christ Jesus." How does that happen //
It dosen't
---michael_e on 9/1/11


Francis:
You are correct, believer's CANNOT sin as God says.
We are righteous in Christ and NOT sinners.

We differ though as I refer to the new creation man who is born of God.
But you still focus on our old man who is supposed to be dead.

God even says "What the law could NOT do, in that it was WEAK through the flesh..." Rom 8:3.

I don't know any SDA's who perfectly keeps the law.

But we see in John16:9, unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world will be convicted of.

And if you bring yourself under law and transgress it (also defined as sin 1John3:4) then that amounts to unbelief.

Dont mix law and grace. The Galatians did and were described as foolish.







---Haz27 on 9/1/11


Well a two part question.
1: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You put away SIN from your life. Jesus died for our sin, and Jesus preached repent from sin. So you have to stop the sin.
Hebrews 12:1 let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us,

DO WE DO THIS OR DOES GOD,
MY ANSWER IS BOTH:
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under MY BODY, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
---Francis on 9/1/11


When he says above in the verse you ask about, verse 26, "if we willfully continue in the life of sin after accepting and recognizing the truth (of the gospel), there remains no further sacrifice we can make for our sins". In other words, by continuing in the Jewish temple ritual, these Jewish believers were committing sin, and serious sin at that. Because every time they participated in an animal sacrifice, they were saying, in effect, that Jesus died in vain. This really is "trampling" Him under foot, this really is regarding His blood, that is, His death on the cross, as "unclean", this really is "violently insulting" the Spirit who testifies to Him and to the validity of His work.
---Rickey on 9/1/11


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This is wonderful feedback and input...keep it coming.

Yesterday I spent 3 hours on the phone with a sister in the Lord (saved and spirit filled for 35 years) and she is believing such lies of the devil, that I got exhausted trying to help her see truth.

I'm wondering HOW she bit off several of the devil's lies and still be "in Christ Jesus." How does that happen?
---Donna5535 on 9/1/11


"When you accept christ, you stop commiting sin" Francis

Wow! Is this how you interpret Hebrews 10:26? So, you are saying that because you have "accepted christ", you have stopped sinning? So, by your testimony, Paul is a liar for writing what he wrote in Romans 7 and we shouldn't believe his teachings, because he declared,

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Romans 7:19

So, when will you be writing the new epistle according to Francis?
---christan on 9/1/11


---David on 9/1/11
Good point well stated.
the thing is, some people redefine sin to suit thier needs.
---francis on 9/1/11

I guess David and Francis are without sin and will never sin again in your lifetime?

Unless you still speak "the King's English" lets change translations.

NASB 1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

Notice the difference? The "practices sin" is the present participle verb in Greek that signifies continuous action. Over and over and over without end.

Substituting it back in, it reads "No one who is born of God sins over and over and over..."
---Mark_Eaton on 9/1/11


The Bible does not say that God does all the work.
At the moment that a person gets saved/born-again they are righteous no change in that. At that moment God does all of the chaning, spiritually, that He is going to do.

We sin because of the sin-nature in the flesh. You are a spirit, have a soul, and are in a body. (1Thess. 5:23)
As long as we are in this flesh/body we are going to have the tendency to sin.
In Romans 5,6,7, & 8, it shows why we sin, what Christ did, & who we are. Even Paul sinned after he was born-again.(Romans 7) Paul was telling them where his/our sin-nature lies...in our flesh. He wasn't talking about when he was a babe in Christ either.
---Rickey on 9/1/11


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Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

When you accept christ, you stop commiting sin

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
---francis on 9/1/11


"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:1-21

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" Romans 7:21,22
---christan on 9/1/11


Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

---David on 9/1/11
Good point well stated.
the thing is, some people redefine sin to suit thier needs.
---francis on 9/1/11


The answer to this question is clearly taught in (1 John 3:9-10).
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Hmmm...Now why don't people accept this teaching?
It's because they have made themselves the measure of righteousness, not Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the one sent by God to be that measure.
They call themselves the Sons of God and since they are still in sin, the Sons of God are sinners.
So, they must change this verse and explain it away to fit their lives as the New Sons of God.

Question:
According to Jesus in (John 8:34-35) will the sinner have Eternal Life?

---David on 9/1/11


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We have free will to obey or not to obey. After salvation we obey because we love our Savior, and we do all that we do in order to please him, because that is the desire within us. Whereas before salvation, and before our love for Christ, our desires might not have been acurrately aimed.
---Eloy on 8/31/11


Although the Lord is giving us strength and helping us change, we have to do a lot of the work. We must walk away from the things of the world. The Bible does not say that God does all the work. We must make choices that show we are truly born again.
---KarenD on 8/31/11


A certain renewing of the mind takes place at the time of conversion. Many things which were hidden are brought to light. For example our behavior towards other people takes on a decided twist in favor of those we are dealing with. After my conversion I was suddenly ready and able to admit my guilt in matters where before I always had to defend myself.
---mima on 8/31/11


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