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Different Resurrections

What is the difference between the first and second resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20?

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 ---leej on 9/3/11
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13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Well it seems as though death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. But I don't see where death and hades were resurrected. They were delivered up. Just as the angels in chains will too be delivered up and Judged, however they won't be resurrected either.

So do you believe the second death is first being resurrected to die again? I don't.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


Mark_Eaton. I'm not going to be dogmatic about it. If perhaps those raised after the first resurrection are resurrected, it clearly states anyone not in the First resurrection will face the second death. No one will be given eternal life who's names were not written in the Book of Life. All written in the book of life will be in the First resurrection.


So if there is two, that is the differences between the two. Jesus said in one of teh letters to the Church, those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


I see no explination of a second resurrection of the dammed and what they will be or look like etc.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/11

Not in 1 Cor 15. Paul is speaking to the church, not unbelievers.

Rev 20 is where the unbelievers are dealt with.

I must agree with the posts that say where there is a first resurrection there must be a second. The second is not referred to by name but it is most certainly described...

Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds"

The "giving up" in this verse is the decription of the second resurrection.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/14/11


Steven, instead of edifying the Church you condem the denominations. While there are many who teach real bad doctrines, nevertheless the denominations are not going to stand before God at judgment Day, the individuals are. And in many denominations there is genuine believers. When you condemn the Church you condemn the individuals also, even the believers within. And no one knows who the elect are and when they will come to Christ but God. The Church is no different then the Apostolic Church, they also had heretics, and false teachers. The reason the warnings are given in Scripture to the believers. It's no different today then at that time, there is just more Churches today.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


Mark_V., the definition of church today has a completely different meaning than it did 2,000 years ago. Today's churches are man-made called denominational churches, or cults, each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible. The gathering of christians in the denominational churches also has a completely different meaning than it did 2,000 years ago. Denominational churches have turned christians into hearers of the Word only. Take a denominational "christian" away from a denominational church and they become lost, confused as prophesized in this last generation.
---Steveng on 9/13/11




Mark_Eaton, when I read ALL ofd 1 Cor 15, from the very first verse to the end of the chapter, talking about the resurrection, what kind of bodies we will have etc, the importance of Jesus death and resurrection, and had He not been raised , those asleep in Christ would have perished. I see no talk about any resurrection of anyone outside of Christ. I see no explination of a second resurrection of the dammed and what they will be or look like etc.

Once we die we are said to be asleep in the Lord. Are we conscious of our surroundings? Paul didn't desire to go home to be with the Lord just so he could be unconscious.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/11


Steven 2: When I said it already had tares within, I did not mean you were one, but that the tares within cause so much problems, the church does not need any of your help for it has enough problems already. I don't know why you continue to persecute the church, we are not called to do that. But I cannot change how you feel. Yet I remember you said you taught at the churches. Maybe they are like they are because you taught in many of them as you said. And maybe they didn't agree with your teachings so you got mad and now persecute all of them. I really don't know but something has you going.
---Mark_V. on 9/13/11


Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26, 23:6, 49:7-9, Ecclesiastes 12:7, Daniel 12:2-3, Matthew 25:46, and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both punishment and life, it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

However for the immortal soul to be resurrected CLOTHED In Christ, one must first have Christ.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/11


So to live again only to face the second death is possible,
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11

Not possible, foretold.

Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt"

If only the righteous will be resurrected, then what exactly does "awake" mean in this verse here?

Awaking to the everlasting contempt of God can mean many things, notwithstanding judgment and wrath.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/13/11


Steven, the blog is about the resurrection. But I will answer your question. Anywhere believers gather it is called the Church. It can be in a cave, home, on the hills. In the visible church there is a mixture of believers and unbelievers. Tares and Wheat. When the church teaches false doctrines, usually genuine believers leave because they cannot change the leadership. In time the church is left with mostly unbelievers.
And as long as there is people like you persecuting the Church instead of edifying it, there will always be a mixture within the Church. That is why its better that you do not attend, because the church already has enough tares within. "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches"
---Mark_V. on 9/13/11




Mark_V.: "Changing the name of the Church to an assembly does not change the genuine Christian is is part of the body of Christ. The Church."

Which church? Your worldly denominational church or The true church? You, and many other christians, belong to a worldly church. A church that steals from people to support their buildings. Christ's church is not of this world. It doesn't need money to support buildings. ALL of the money goes direct6ly to helping the poor and needy. A person does not need to be a member of any worldly church.
---Steveng on 9/12/11


//.... Don't you realize that a curse is pronounced on anyone ADDING to the words of this book (Rev 22:18)?
---jerry6593 on 9/12/11

Howbeit, olde Ellen added much to the word of this book. Will there be a curse awaiting her?

In fact, Adventism has even added her plagarized works on the same level as the word of God.
---leej on 9/12/11


interesting choice of words ...they are not "nothing" simply dead ...very hard to unlearn lies taught by mainstream christianity ... these teachings subtly deny the miracle of the resurrection to LIFE again living eternally

It's purpose is to weaken an ALL-Knowing divine being GOD could not be capable of resurrecting a dead soul that has gone into silence and the soul is not capable of recognizing GOD because it is dead

by believing all mankind has immortality now denies the awesome POWER of God to resurrect a human being FROM the dead to the promise of eternal life
---Rhonda on 9/12/11

If the soul died then you are talking about re-incarnation. Rhonda, it is YOU who believe in fairy-tales.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/11


Rhonda, how then are these non existant nothings that have no knowledge of God going to put on immortality ???
****

interesting choice of words ...they are not "nothing" simply dead ...very hard to unlearn lies taught by mainstream christianity ... these teachings subtly deny the miracle of the resurrection to LIFE again living eternally

It's purpose is to weaken an ALL-Knowing divine being GOD could not be capable of resurrecting a dead soul that has gone into silence and the soul is not capable of recognizing GOD because it is dead

by believing all mankind has immortality now denies the awesome POWER of God to resurrect a human being FROM the dead to the promise of eternal life
---Rhonda on 9/12/11


Rhonda, how then are these non existant nothings that have no knowledge of God going to put on immortality ???If they have no knowledge of God, how then are they going to Put on Christ, who alone resurrects those who are IN HIM.

Why do you think scripture states over and over the importance of being IN CHRIST?

Those in Christ will never be separated from God, neither LIFE OR DEATH can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/11


I invite all to check out "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes" (Joe Ortiz' "End Times Passover" blog, Sep. 4th).
---Jon on 9/12/11


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//This is the deeper message of Revelation.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11 //

A little too deep, I think. You have dug beyond Revelation and are digging in the dirt. Don't you realize that a curse is pronounced on anyone ADDING to the words of this book (Rev 22:18)?
---jerry6593 on 9/12/11


Rhonda

Christ is the firstborn from the dead. Christ the Firstfruits, then those who are His at His Coming. The dead IN CHRIST shall rise FIRST, and those who remain shall be caught up together to with them met the Lord in the Clouds.

If it meant consecutive order , Jesus was the First to be resurrected, then it would say we are the second resurrection.

The dead In Christ who rise first is the FIRST resurrection, going all the way back to Adam & Eve, Abel etc. The OT Spirits of Just men made Perfect In Christ at His Resurrection are very much alive in Heaven as we speak. Hebrews 12. After all, didn't they too SUFFER for teh Word of God? Heb 11. They without US could not be made perfect.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/11


Rhonda //the dead are very much DEAD ...they are in silence, do not think, and have no knowledge of GOD.

Some would believe that but I find Scripture presents another view.

Rev. 6:9-10 When he opened the 5th seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

How could the dead cry out if they were not conscious.

And then hell is viewed as a place of conscious torment for the dead.

Perhaps your denomination spiritualizes verses that disagree with their doctrinal views.
---leej on 9/11/11


Jesus was not a Aesop story teller that invented stories to simply teach a lesson
*****

THEN Christ LIED in Mark 4

Jesus stated he purposely told His parables (stories/fables) to HIDE the meaning - using these STORIES to make it MORE difficult to understand (MARK 4)

believe LIES of men who REJECT the very words of Christ Jesus in Mark 4 making story of Lazarus "real" to support Dante's hell-fire lies

Christ preached Gods Kingdom to come as a witness ONLY not to convert them Matt 24:14 ...

To believe Luke 16:19-31 FIRST explain where it says anyone goes immediately to "hell" or "heaven" ...BIG surprise it doesn't - one must ADD that idea - as taught by counterfeit christianity
---Rhonda on 9/11/11


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Jerry, when looking up lived vs resurrected, we alsoo come up with two different words.

So to live again only to face the second death is possible, however those who have been Resurrected actually mean resurrected to having eternal Life IN CHRIST. Jesus said I AM the resurrection and the Life.

These were not raised up by Christ, In Christ and Through Christ.

1st Cor 15.

This is the deeper message of Revelation.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11


So First resurrection in no way means a consecutive order,
*****

well according to you maybe not ...however according to Holy Scripture the dead are raised in order 1Corin 15

to REJECT the resurrection of all is to REJECT Christ

either one believes every word of Holy Scripture or they believe mens distorted views ABOUT Holy Scripture

the dead are very much DEAD ...they are in silence, do not think, and have no knowledge of GOD

Christ does not defeat death until HIS Return ...reality is people die and they WAIT until the resurrection Abram Job David Apostles all understood this BASIC TRUTH

too many believe their fairy tales mixing the lies of men into Gods Holy Word
---Rhonda on 9/11/11


//BUT this shows us that the DEAD are very much in existance from the time they are dead.

It is impossible to believe in hell as a place of great suffering and affliction and not believe that the dead are not unconsious. Jesus often spoke of hell as a place of torment and we should not ignore the plain teachings of Scipture on this topic to suit our denominational theology.

Some like to spiritualize the story of Lazarus and the Rich man (Luke 16) but Jesus was not a Aesop story teller that invented stories to simply teach a lesson but used actual events people could identify with.
---leej on 9/11/11


kathr: "BUT this shows us that the DEAD are very much in existance from the time they are dead"

Not to me it doesn't.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Somehow, "the dead lived not again" does not translate as "the dead were still alive" to me.
---jerry6593 on 9/11/11


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Jerry, I guess some would think it implied that when the DEAD were brought forth to stand before God, that they were in fact resurrected to stand, being then the second resurrection.

BUT this shows us that the DEAD are very much in existance from the time they are dead, and don't need to be resurrected to stand before judgement. (Let the dead bury the dead) The second death is that of the lake of FIRE. So First resurrection in no way means a consecutive order,

strogs 3391 is the number one,

first, 4413 not even a root or part of 3391

Titus 3:10 first and second....same 3391, used as a number in consecutive order of 1,,2,3 and so on.
---kathr4453 on 9/10/11


// The Bible never mentions a second resurrection, but it does say the second death.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11 //

Well, it sure does imply a second resurrection when it mentions a FIRST resurrection (Rev 20:5,6)! How can there be the first of anything without a second?
---jerry6593 on 9/10/11


The Bible never mentions a second resurrection, but it does say the second death.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11


Mark Eaton,

I agree tha Rev 4 and beyond are future to John. But concerning the timing of resurrection and rapture, it does not say how far into the future they are, whether the rapture has already taken place, etc. That is conjecture.

I believe one mistake that Pre-Trib adherents make is that the entire notion is predicated on a strict distinction between Israel and the Church. I believe there is a distinction, but not along the same lines.

Also, Dispensationalists view the church as a parenthetical time frame. I, however, see Israel as the parenthesis.

Without those two distinctions, there is little basis for a Pre-trib rapture.

That means the scriptures are interpreted in light of a previously held doctrine
---James_L on 9/9/11


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Even still, if John were literally interacting with raptured saints in heaven, that would mean the rapture had already happened before John penned Revelation?
---James_L on 9/7/11

Everyone misses this verse, which is the key to understanding the timeline for The Revelation:

Rev 1:16 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things"

Things you have seen...Christ in the lampstands, the things which are...the churches, and the things which will take place after these things....Chapt 4 and beyond.

Evetything past Rev. Chapter 4 is future to John
---Mark_Eaton on 9/9/11


God told Israel he would visit THEIR sin upon them. That sin was when they worshipped the Golden calf.

The Church does not have to be judged with Them, however Gentiles who are not saved and come against Israel at this time will be judged. This is between God and Israel. Zechariah 12-14.

Also note in Zechariah that His Saints, that is US, His Church, His Bride will be with Him at His second coming. We have been promised to reign and rule with Him at that time, when He sets up His Millenniel Kingdom Reign on earth. You really MUST read the 7 letters to the Churches.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11


Rickey,
Being we are graffed in, we must then be dragged to the ground with them unto the "earthly"...
and be judged as they by association? No, you are a bit off.
"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."
---Nana on 9/8/11


While the Church is being judged at the judgment Seat of Christ in the air, the Jews will be judged under Antichrist on the earth. The Jews are an "earthly" people, and as all the promises to them are "earthly, " it follows that their judgment must be of an "earthly" character. The basis of their judgment is their "rejection of the Godhead." In the days of Samuel they rejected God the Father. 1Sam. 8:7. In the days of Christ they rejected God the Son. Luke 23:18. In the days of Stephen they rejected God the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51, Acts 7:54-56. For their sin they have been scattered among the nations until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
---Rickey on 9/8/11


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It comes from the noun Tribul, A sled used to separate Chaff from the Wheat(Goats from the Sheep)
---John on 9/7/11

My NT was not written in English.

The word is thlipsis (Gk) which means a pressing, pressing together, or pressure.

Bible translations render the word as: tribulation, afflictions, distress, anguish, persecution, calamities, trouble, etc.

Has nothing to do with if the church will or will not be present.

Simply means, "a Time of Troubles".
---Mark_Eaton on 9/8/11


Paul, this is nothing to get mad about.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/11

I'm not mad at you, what ever gave you that idea.

I realize what debate is, sometimes we use mood or emotional text to get a point across.

No harm no fowl,

Paul
---paul on 9/8/11


Paul, this is nothing to get mad about. This are discussions from Scripture. Or what you might call a debate. I don't believe not knowing completely the end times will cause a beliver (the elect) to lose his salvation. Most of the protestant theologians disagree with you. This ideas of Preterism and futurism are ideas that came from the RCC to counter the Reformers in 1590 % 1591. Reformers believe in "Historism" In essence, historism teaches straight-forward, chronological progression by saying that the major prophecies of Daniel and Revelation find fulfillment throughout Christian history while pointing toward the climatic, visible Second Coming of our Savior.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/11


The 1st resurrection will happen during the Great Tribulation, and it will be for those who have died for Christ.
The 2nd resurrection is for everybody else, the righteous and the unrighteous.
(Revelation 20:4-5)

When you read this passage, notice that those who are in the 1st resurrection are there because they did not get the mark of the beast.
The mark of the beast is given when?
During the Great Tribulation.
(Revelation 13:14-18)
---David on 9/8/11


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Paul, here is one passage that not only talks about the Church, but the antichrist.
"Now, Brethren, concerning the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means, "for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes "first," and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2:1-3).
Paul tells us what comes first, the falling away, then the man of perdition, and then the gathering of believers. In your example the gathering comes first then seven years.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/11


Mark Eaton,

Of course there is an agenda in what I write. Everyone has an agenda, including you. I am sure we have the same agenda, to find and share the truth of scripture.

"in the spirit" doesn't mean an out of body experience.

In 2Cor 12, Paul spoke of "in body" (en somati) and "out of body" (chopis tou somatos)

But Rev 1:10 says John was "in spirit" (en pneumati).

Ephesians 6:18 says to pray "in [the] spirit" (en pneumati). Are we to have an out of body experience when we pray?

Even still, if John were literally interacting with raptured saints in heaven, that would mean the rapture had already happened before John penned Revelation?
---James_L on 9/7/11


Think God is going to allow His children to suffer through His wrath.
-paul-

YES!!!
(Error on Wrath, its tribulation).

It comes from the noun Tribul, A sled used to separate Chaff from the Wheat(Goats from the Sheep)

TELL ME...

1) Is "The Great Commision" until the coming of Christ

OR..

7 years before He comes???

2) Your heresy saids the HS is missing during the tribulation. Then how does anyone get saved, for at that point the bible is just a book(dead).

I've given you the direct words of Christ saying "AFTER" the tribulation etc.

NOW give us direct scripture saying "pre-trib rapture..."

Otherewise it's just intellectual diarhea!
---John on 9/7/11


Mark

Now our lending yourself to technical jargon.

The NT Church pre-rapture are already in Heaven, is that better?

Paul
---paul on 9/7/11


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Mark E/Paul, just think about, if the majority of the Bible's "tribulation texts""the tribulation" is something believers will not go through? Even in Left Behind, there are after-the rapture Christians who will go through the tribulation? They are saints, the Church of Christ, the body of Christ. Changing the name of the Church to an assembly does not change the genuine Christian is is part of the body of Christ. The Church. It's like saying, Let those others saints who make up also the body of Christ, the church, go through it not us in this church, as if there were two bodies of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11


There is no evidence that this is a raptured/resurrected body of believers prior to the Tribulation.
---James_L on 9/7/11

Your answer sounds like it has an agenda in it.

Rev 4:1 calls John up into God's Throne Room. The entire rest of the "vision" takes place from that location, in the Throne Room of heaven.

Now, if the "vision" takes place in heaven and a bunch of people, non-Jewish, from all over the world, are in robes washed white by the blood of the Lamb, worshipping God and Jesus, and Jesus will be their Shepherd and they will serve Him in appararently new bodies.

How can say they are not the church?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/7/11


This was a vision, not a physical trip to heaven.
---James_L on 9/7/11

This was an out of body spiritual experience that John had where he was taken to Heaven.

Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Where he was acting and interacting with those around him.

Paul
---paul on 9/7/11


Mark Eaton,

Rev 7:9 is definitely describing a great multitude in heaven. BUT,

There is no evidence that this is a raptured/resurrected body of believers prior to the Tribulation.

Notice in 7:11 there were angels who were apparently "visible" too. This was a vision, not a physical trip to heaven.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses...

There is already a great multitude in heaven now. But they are not resurrected yet.

Also, after the first temple was destroyed, there was no assembly of Israelites, either. That's why the synagogue (assembling place) came into being.
---James_L on 9/7/11


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Also, Mark V is correct about the saints being mentioned in Revelation. "church" is not mentioned beyond Rev 4 because "church" (gr. ekklesia) means "assembly"
---James_L on 9/6/11

I must disagree with this statement.

When I look at the description of this "assembly", it definitely describes the church:

Rev 7:9 "...a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/7/11


Paul //You think God is going to allow His children to suffer through His wrath?

His wrath was displayed when he removed Lot and family from Sodom and Noah and family were rescued via a boat.

But I think the problem here is that we can expect tribution and even death in this world from those who are not of God. God's judgment may be upon our world and we will suffer because of it but not the wrath we see in Revelation in which the earth suffers gross devastation.
---leej on 9/7/11


You think God is going to allow His children to suffer through His wrath?
---paul on 9/7/11

I must agree.

I have yet to see anyone who thinks the church will go through the Tribulation give me a good explanation to my question of "Why the 1/2 hour of Silence in Rev 8:1"?

My explanation is this. The scroll is finally open. Inside the scroll is God's wrath. All heaven is stunned into silence when they see what wrath God has prepared for unbelievers.

Now, why would He purchase people to go through that?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/7/11


The Church, the saints, have gone through tribulations all through History. Paul urges the Church'
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11

Mark

The Church has not suffered at the hand of God.

Tribulation is going to be hell on earth wrought by God.

You think God is going to allow His children to suffer through His wrath.

Paul
---paul on 9/7/11


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Paul, you said ,
"what was His nature concerning Lot at Sodom or Noah at the flood?".
God doesn't change. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
You said:
"Were His righteous spared or forced to suffer those tribulations?"
The Church, the saints, have gone through tribulations all through History. Paul urges the Church'
"Therefore take up the whole armor of God, "that you may be able to withstand in the evil day," and having done all, to stand" Eph. 6:13. We are to stand in the "evil day" How can we, if we have previously disappeared? Jesus Christ also said,
"But he who endures to the end shall be saved" (Matt. 24:13).
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11


Paul 2: Now concerning Noah, Paul wrote that all who are not fully on the Lord's side when true believers are "caught up..shall not escape" (1 Thess. 4:17, 5:3). For them, their is no second chance, chances are over. Jesus also said, "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matt. 24:37). After the door of the Ark closed, all desperate attempts to get inside were useless. It was too late. It will be the same at the Second Coming of Christ. All chances will end. If you are not caught up when the Lord descends from Heaven with a shout, you will have blown it big time, forever. They will drown (die) just like those in Noah's time.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11


Good point LeeJ!

I believe Deut 6:9(?)
"You shall love your G-d with all your Heart, all your strength and all your mind!"

If you do not have this within you its sufficient prove you do not have the spirit within you and therefore not saved.
---John on 9/6/11


\\...Lot at Sodom or Noah at the flood?

Were His righteous spared or forced to suffer those tribulations?\\
---paul on 9/6/11

Sodom and the flood were not tribulation, they were judgment on the unrighteous.

Tribulation is when saints are persecuted by sinners. Exile, Captivity, Diaspora, etc.

Also, Mark V is correct about the saints being mentioned in Revelation. "church" is not mentioned beyond Rev 4 because "church" (gr. ekklesia) means "assembly"

During the Tribulation, there will not be any assembling of the saints, they will be hiding, and any who confess Christ will be killed.
---James_L on 9/6/11


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Steveng //These are the christians who will believe their eternal lives are saved will lose it.

Yes, one can deceit oneself as to ones salvation but we really need to determine if God's Spirit truly indwells us.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

If we do not have that testimony of the Spirit within us that we are the children of God, we need to re-evaluate what we truly believe.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,...

I believe His Spirit seals us as to His ownership.
---leej on 9/6/11


Why do end time christians be so vain to think they will escape tribulation when christians all throughout history have been persecuted and died in the name of God and Jesus? We will soon find out how christians who think they are christians, but are not, will denounce Jesus under a little pressure from the world. These are the christians who will believe their eternal lives are saved will lose it.
---Steveng on 9/6/11


John //PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IS A HERESY!!!

Fortunately there are many that are getting away from the belief in a pre-trib rapture. The problem, I beleive, is derived from a misinterpretation of scripture prophecies that had already been fulfilled with the destruction of the Jerusalem temple. Suggest one read "Revelation Four Views a Parallel Commentary" by Steve Gregg for greater understanding.


As far as tribulation is concerned more Christians have suffered and been martyred in the last century than in the previous 19 centuries. We really cannnot expect to not be persecuted in one way or the other.
---leej on 9/6/11


Does it matter if you go to heaven first or after tribulation. You still go to heaven at some point, the first is 7 years earlier. We are talking about eternal heaven, 7 years does not make a difference. Learn to respectfully disagree on non-critical items and leave it at that.
---Scott1 on 9/6/11


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Mark

You talk of the nature of God, well what was His nature concerning Lot at Sodom or Noah at the flood?

Were His righteous spared or forced to suffer those tribulations?

Consider it in prayer.

Paul
---paul on 9/6/11


PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IS A HERESY!!!

It was started (19th century) by a Witch named Margaret McDonald(Google it)passed to John Darby then to John Scoffield who brought it to America.

TRIBULATION IS FOR BELIEVERS! WRATH IS FOR THE WICKED! All believers have gone through tribulation. Why would G-d give "YOU" a pass??? It comes from the word Tribul. A sled use to seperate the Wheat from the Chaff. A testing of faith.

NOW HEAR WHAT JESUS SAID...

MATT 24:29-31.."AFTER the tribulation"
JOHN 17:15 "Do NOT take them out of the world..
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54 "On the LAST day"
JOHN 11:24 "on the LAST day"
JOHN 12:48 "on the LAST day"
DAN 12:1-3

CASE CLOSED!!!
---John on 9/6/11


Paul, I don't want to contradict your position. All I wanted to do is give you some pieces to put together. I use to also believe, the Rapture and then the tribulation. I heard so many demonstrations, and of course the Left Behind books which I still have. But one day I told myself to forget everything that I was taught concerning the Second Coming, and just study for myself. Read the details. As I did with the Nature, character, and Attributes of God. I went from a man centered theology to a God centered theology. My eyes were opened and I could make sense of all the passages that speak about chosen, predestined, and the many words of Jesus to the lost. I could not continue to put away passages just because I did not understand them. Peace.
---Mark_V. on 9/6/11


"Believers do not go through the Second resurrection, they will already be glorified with Christ." MarkV

AMEN!

And that's because when the sinner is born of the Spirit, he has been deemed to have been resurrected by God from his spiritual death, which many do not seem to believe that they are in that very state since the fall. Only the Christian go to sleep (when his life ends on earth) and await the final redemption, which is the glorification with Christ.

And all this is clearly taught by Paul in his epistle and declared by our Lord Jesus Christ in John 3:3,5.
---christan on 9/6/11


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markV //When we read Scripture we know that the Church is on earth after Rev. 4. How do we know?

Very good exegetics! Unfortunately there are many that follow the Left Behind theology which is really contrary to scripture and good sense.

I for one have doubts about a secret rapture in which people disappear and their belief that graveyards will be torn up.
---leej on 9/5/11


Paul, I never mentioned Rev. 20:4, Rev. 4:20 for a reason. I spoke of the saints (the Church of Christ) born of the Spirit. You said, "the church should be in heaven"
When we read Scripture we know that the Church is on earth after Rev. 4. How do we know? Because Revelation says the beast will make "war with the saints" (13:7), then we read about "the faith of the saints" (13:10). Paul wrote his New Testament letters to the "churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33). Wherever there are saints, there is the Church. Even if the saints mentioned in Rev. 13,14 are only tribulation saints, wouldn't they as sincere believers in Jesus Christ still be the Church?
---Mark_V. on 9/5/11


Paul 2: There's no mention of two Churches. Some teach the Church won't be here for Armageddon. Is this true? The word "armageddon" is used only once in the entire Bible in Revelation 16:16, which is the great chapter about the falling of the seven last plagues. Right before (v. 16), during the time of the plagues, Jesus Christ says, "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon" (Rev. 16:15,16). Who is Jesus talking to? To the Church. Therefore He must come like a thief at Armageddon, after the tribulation, and must be the time when He comes to gather His Church.
---Mark_V. on 9/5/11


The first resurrection is when we are born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 9/4/11


Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Mark

Are you over Spiritualizing this text, Rev 4:20 states who they are.

The ones who came out of the tribulation, they are the only ones who have the opportunity to meet the criteria such as the mark.

The Church should already be in Heaven.

Paul
---paul on 9/4/11


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//The second resurrection happens after the thousand year reign of Christ when all the other dead shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works.

Will anyone be saved eternally if they are part of the second resurrection?

What will be in the Book of Life - names of unbelievers who have merited eternal salvation based on their works?

If the second resurrection is for the unbelievers only, then what is in the Book of Life?
---leej on 9/4/11


Christan, very good answer you gave. The first resurrection is when we are born of the Spirit. Brought to life in Christ. We are resurrected from the spiritual death we were in. At the Second Coming it is the consumation of our resurrection, when the flesh is change to incorruptable and joins the Spirit. Believers do not go through the Second resurrection, they will already be glorified with Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/4/11


I have a T-shirt which explains this clearly which says:
"Born twice, die once:
Born once, die twice."
The first resurrection is where dead Christians are raised to live and reign with Christ 1,000 years. After this is the second resurrection where all the sinners are cast into hell and eternal torments, and the righteous are gathered into holy heaven where there is absolutely no sinners nor any evil rotten disgusting persons.
---Eloy on 9/4/11


The first resurrection happens when Jesus will shortly return for the second time when the dead in Christ rise and the living shall be caught up with the dead.

The second resurrection happens after the thousand year reign of Christ when all the other dead shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works.

Blessed are those who rise at the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 9/4/11


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From the little I know, I agree with Paul and josef
---chria9396 on 9/4/11


Christan: "Please read the Scripture carefully, there's no mention of your "second resurrection"?"

Good advice! You should heed it yourself. If there is a first resurrection, and the unrighteous dead live again 1000 years later, that implies a second resurrection. Does it not?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
---jerry6593 on 9/4/11


The first resurrection is for those who are saved resulting in their mortality being changed to immortality.It will tak place when Jesus returns. The second resurrcton is for the wicked
who will die again by fire after recognizing God's fair-ness. Their execution will take place at then of the millenium.
---Pierre on 9/4/11


Upon closer review it would appear that the first resurrection is of the ones who came out of the tribulation period and did not concede to the beast but were heirs with Christ.

And the second is indeed the judgement of the wicked.

Some will disagree with this but I find that we the redeemed are already gone at this point as per 1 Thes 4:17
---paul on 9/4/11


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"What is the difference between the first and second resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20?"
The first is the resurrection of life, the second is the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29
The first is the resurrection of the just, the second is the resurrection of the unjust. Act 24:15
Those raised in the first, death has no power or authoritative right. Rev 20:6
Those raised in the second, are raised in subjection to the second death. Rev. 20:15
---josef on 9/3/11


The first is the judgment seat of Christ 2Cor 5:10 where we as the redeemed will receive our rewards for our stewardship.

The second death spoken of is the White throne judgment that the non-redeemed will partake in upon their condemnation and entry into eternal damnation.John 3:18 Matt 25:41

We wont see the likes of that one Praise God, Rom 5:21

Paul
---paul on 9/3/11


Please read the Scripture carefully, there's no mention of your "second resurrection"?

The first resurrection is clearly taught by Christ, which theologians describe as spiritual regeneration: John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So, unless one is born of the Spirit of God by His will (see John 1:12,13), you will never be partakers of God's kingdom, period. In short, it is God who chooses as He please and the sinful man has no say in this matter whatsoever.
---christan on 9/3/11


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