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 ---TheSeg on 9/6/11
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"You also highlight the disunity rampant among trinitarianism." David8318

"One or other among them [the Trinitarians] rejects the Trinitarian meaning from each single passage brought in support of it. But this diversity, while it weakens the force of that particular argument, is itself even more fatal to the doctrine..

...Some dangerous heresy has always been detected, lurking under the disguise of every possible interpretation, and those have uniformly succeeded best who have simply stated the bald dogma, in the most paradoxical form possible, and have left the explanation as...

... a `mystery,' to shift for itself."

Ten Discourses on Orthodoxy. Joseph Henry Allen, pp. 58, 59
---scott on 9/10/11


Whoa Trav! Right on the money!!! GREAT POST!!!!

(Paul might just change his name to Saul)
---John on 9/9/11


Love you anyway,

Paul
---paul on 9/10/11


Makes me want to throw up. Those touting authority and works. Smoke n grift.
---Trav on 9/10/11

Ok Trav

Thats is, you want to engage in thos type tactics that is on you.

I will not!

You ask for scriptures and I produce them and you still run off at the mouth about me.

Looks as if though you are just wanting a reason, so do as you will my friend.

I see you as a brother in Christ is the only reason I try with you.

And you want none of it, you did not make me nor will you brake me.

May God bless you and keep you by His mercies according to His will.

Paul
---paul on 9/10/11


"I prefer "God, the Word of God, the Spirit of God (or Holy Spirit)" for those are biblical designations." James_L

Agreed. To introduce terminology like "God the Son, God/Man, Fully man/fully God (none of which is found in the Bible) is a departure from the simple language of the inspired text.

"Pot calling the kettle black" James_L

How do you understand: (?)

"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Cor 8:5, 6 NASV
---scott on 9/10/11


Finish what here blog?
---Eloy on 9/10/11




Warwick, as usual you are full of hot air and no substance. Trinitarianism does promote polytheism as can be seen in Aka's comment 9/9/11. Jesus is not Jehovah and yet 'all three are Elohim'. If Jesus is not Jehovah but both are 'Elohim', then this is pure polytheism.

'The point regarding the Interlinnear is the JW NWT contradicts the Interlinnear JW's use!' SO WHAT!! JW's use the KJV, the NIV etc and often contradict trinitarian translations where trinity errors are concerned. No exception with the Westcott and Hort Greek text.

The context of Romans 14:7-9 still hasn't sunk in with you Warwick yet. Jehovah is eternal, Christ 'died and came to life again'- Ro.14:9.
---David8318 on 9/10/11


JamesL- your hypothesis of Jehovah's Witnesses is false. JW's believe only in one God and Creator- Jehovah. Neither his Son nor any of the 'minion' angels have the tile AlmightyGod and/or Creator. Your conclusion of 9/9/11 is wrong.

You also need to look up and remind yourself of what polytheism means. Trinitarians worship 3 God's as can be seen by Aka's comment 9/9/11- 'all three are Elohim' and yet 'Jesus is not Jehovah'. JW's worship only one God and Creator- Jehovah, as instructed by Jesus Christ at Matthew 4:10.

You also highlight the disunity rampant among trinitarianism. God is a 'God of order'- 1 Cor.1:10 & 14:33. How can such a disunited religious belief such as trinitarianism possibly be from a God of order?
---David8318 on 9/10/11


Whoa Trav! Right on the money!!! GREAT POST!!!!

(Paul might just change his name to Saul)
---John on 9/9/11

Were that it was a similar situation. Biblical Saul was educated in OT scripture. Some self proclaimed ministers, only have overwhelming emotions and feelings they run with. All vague opinion, no scriptures by multiple.

Instead of taking mens supporting material and clarifying it with scripture, this one says GOD's word needs help. Purchase "5 love tricks" ....and cannot give any biblical witnesses for them. If he could they wouldn't need the book!!

Makes me want to throw up. Those touting authority and works. Smoke n grift.
---Trav on 9/10/11


How can God be Father from eternity if there was no other eternal Being to relate to and in order to BECOME Father he had to first make the angel Michael (aka Jesus)?

The Watchtower has an answer (I think?): ''The second Adam has become a life-giving spirit. In this capacity he can fulfil Isaiah's prophecy and become the 'Eternal Father'. In such a way the heavenly Father of Jesus will become the heavenly GRANDFATHER of the restored human family.'' (Worldwide Security Under the 'Prince of Peace', 1986, p. 169.)

Sounds pretty, pretty good..but does it help?
---Marc on 9/9/11


Claim gifts you cannot substantiate....or interpret.
---Trav on 9/9/11

Trav1

I am going to do my best to answer your accusations.

Post one thing I have bragged or been arrogant about.

Hear is the scriptural proof of my gift.
Spirit interceding: Rom:8:26
Praying in Spirit: Jude 1:20
Instances of tongues without interpretation.
Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6, are a few.
Tongues of Angels 1Cor 13:1
The gift of tongues and gift of interpretation are two different gifts which do not always work together. 1Cor 12:10

As I said before this is not a topic people here want to learn of so I simply do go there.

Paul
---paul on 9/9/11




Trav 2

What do I merchandize? I DO NOT sale anything. My wife wrote a book she sales for production coast. I have given more things away in the ministry then you could ever imagine.

Theirs nothing wrong with Christian resources.

Do you think those items are free, same as you going and purchasing a Bible. Production cost

I run from nothing including you, I choose what I wish to answer as we all do.

I do utilize scriptures when applicable, search my responses and you will find them riddled with scripture or principles thereof.

Who have I degraded, I offer up tough love sometimes but NEVER degrade, post it.

Even if it all were true it would make me an unruly BROTHER to you.

Paul
---paul on 9/9/11


Scott, your apostate comments make no sense. You originally quoted "Anti-witness sites by ex-Witnesses, etc., are unreliable."
And
"Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence."

"...he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself."

This means apostates testimony is of lesser weight-the 'poisoned well' argument-apostates are dishonest!

Now you say "There is no additional weight added to someone's case or argument...because he is an Ex-Anything..."

The opposite of the intent of your original quote.

Attempted sleight of hand?
---Warwick on 9/9/11


\\ Yet merchandise GOD to any desperate or poor in spirit,mostly for your own ego.\\

In fairness to paul, while he seems from his posts here to be lacking in discernment (a fault widespread among Pentecostals and Charismatics), I honestly don't think he's making merchandise of the Gospel.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 9/9/11


\\David, you...claim Trinitarians are polytheists, having three Gods.\\
---Warwick on 9/9/11

to be fair, there are some so-called "Trinitarians" who have a warped idea of Father, Son, Spirit, and in fact do believe they are three separate, individual gods. Part of it may have to do with the wording "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit" which I do not prefer.

I prefer "God, the Word of God, the Spirit of God (or Holy Spirit)" for those are biblical designations

But, David is a pot calling the kettle black. For JWs are polytheists, and share one thing with other polytheists, and that is the idea of one supreme god, and little minion gods doing all the chores.
---James_L on 9/9/11


Whoa Trav! Right on the money!!! GREAT POST!!!!

(Paul might just change his name to Saul)
---John on 9/9/11


The criteria is "brother". Which you are not. \
---Trav on 9/9/11

How could you possibly know this to be a truth?
---paul on 9/9/11

Easily. For the third time.
You are arrogant & boastful thinking by title we'll wilt.

Claim gifts you cannot substantiate....or interpret.
Claim to be a minister. Yet merchandise GOD to any desperate or poor in spirit,mostly for your own ego.
You Run when the going gets scary. Dodge,evade.
You do not utilize any scripture witnesses, for any of your boast. Run again.
You take opportunity to be degrading to struggling searchers here. Hmmmm. Wahtaminister.

Psalm 119:45
I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.
---Trav on 9/9/11


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The Word is God, and has always been God. There was never a time when the WORD became God, for God is eternal. The fantastic miracle is that this eternal God became man at the Incarnation approximately 2,000 years ago, given the name Jesus, who has not always been man.
Jesus will be fully God and fully man forever.
He is still fully God Fully man right now. TODAY, The Mediator between God and man is the MAN Christ Jesus.
The Bible is clear Jesus rose physically from the dead in the same body that had died (Luke 24:39) and then ascended into heaven as a man, in His physical body Acts 1:9, Luke 24:50-51.

Yet He is Almighty God, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11


Hebrews 2:15-17 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Did He make reconciliation for the sins of the people while on earth b/4 His death and resurrection or now in Heaven after His resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11


Hebrews 2:15-17 (King James Version)

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


Did He make reconciliation for the sins of the people b/4 His death and resurrection or After His resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11


Scott, I thank you for pointing out my error. I of course meant Romans 14:7-9.
---Warwick on 9/9/11


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Begotten then would mean His humanity?

He took on the seed of Abraham to taste death for every man. Hebrews 2
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11

So now He is no longer Jesus Christ in Heaven?

Paul
---paul on 9/9/11


David the point regarding the Interlinnear is the JW NWT contradicts the Interlinnear JW's use!

The Interlinnear shows that in Romans 14:7-9 the Greek root 'Kyrios' is used 4 times. If the WTS wished to translate Kyrios as Jehovah 4 times then so be it. They would at least be consistent with the Interlinnear they use, but this would correctly call Christ Jehovah, so they cannot!

IN the NWT The Greek root 'Kyrios' is is rendered 'Jehovah' 3 times and 'Lord' when it refers to Christ. This is corrupt, totally destroying the meaning of the passage.

The correct rendering of 'Kyrios' as 'Lord' throughout the pasaage is shown in the 16 translations I consulted, including NIV, NASB, ASV, KJV, ESV, DOUAY, DARBY, WEBSTERS AND YOUNGS.
---Warwick on 9/9/11


"Stop clinging to me.[very loose Greek]" aka

Loose? Check the lexicons. "haptomai mou me"


"Haptomai" (Strong's 680) = 1. To fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to.

"Mou" (Strong's 3550) = Me, my, of me

"Me" (may) (Strong's 3361) = No, not

haptomai mou me = "Cling to me not"


"Do not cling to me." ESV

"Stop clinging to Me." NASB

"Do not cling to Me." NKJV

"Stop clinging to me." NWT
---scott on 9/9/11


David, you persistently, incorrectly therefore deceitfully, claim Trinitatians are polytheists, having three Gods.

However the Oxford Dictionary says: "Polytheism: the belief in or worship of more than one god..from French polythisme, from Greek polutheos 'of many gods', from polu- 'many' + theos 'god.'"

In John 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus Ho Theos-The God, not a god. Thomas was no polytheist.

We believe in one God in three persons. JW's reject the Holy Spirit so such things are incomprenensible foolishness to you just as 1 Corinthians 2:14 says.
---Warwick on 9/9/11


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Warwick,

Thank you also for the exchange. Most I've seen who use the phrase "fully God, fully man" apparently don't care to specify what they mean, for I have scarcely seen it.

I agree with you concerning the JWs. That relates very much. One building block for them is the notion that man is an inseperable unit, body and soul. That forces them to choose - Is Christ God or man?

But they neglect the scriptures that teach the Word of God tented among us, that Paul spoke of putting off his tent, that Peter wrote of putting off his tent.

They believe the tent takes the soul to the grave. This builds up their falsehood about Jesus.
---James_L on 9/9/11


You state that the Only Begotten Son of God died. His Begotten Son never died. ---Mark_V. on 9/8/11

Interestingly For God so loved the world He GAVE His Only Begotton Son to die upon a cross.

So it would appear His Begotten Son did die, and not only so was resurrected.


Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

Begotten then would mean His humanity?

He took on the seed of Abraham to taste death for every man. Hebrews 2
---kathr4453 on 9/9/11


The criteria is "brother". Which you are not. \
---Trav on 9/9/11

How could you possibly know this to be a truth?

Why do you reject Christ's teachings?

In this will men know you are my Disciples that you love your brother.

Do you think it is your four and no more.

Are you Jesus only for they are the only ones I have ever encountered with the same incautious desire to minimize Jesus salvation by limiting it to their prescribed people.

Paul
---paul on 9/9/11


According to scripture you are a liar and know not God.
---paul on 9/9/11

The criteria is "brother". Which you are not. I don't hate you anyway. I reject your opinions and scripture rebukes em.
You are scripture in part. A lil wolf pup or hireling of sorts. Howling a position he does not substansiate. Spotlighted, Rebuked and embarrassed for it. Bark and growl.
My shepherds staff hedges me.
Hosea 2:19
I will betroth thee unto me for ever, yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Hosea 2:20
I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.

You'll realize it too.
---Trav on 9/9/11


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Mark

Let me start by giving you major respect for who you are in Christ.

One mark of maturity as a CHRISTIAN is when we realize we are all the body whether we agree or not.

And you have never once in ALL our exchanges ever doubted my salvation or insinuated that I don't serve God.

For that you have my respect, alot here don't.

But about Jesus being the Son, He was the Son on earth He was not God.

He neglected His Godship to come here that is why He needed glorified to enter Heaven at His accention.

I am not saying He is not equal to God I am saying He is not God the Father but rather God the Son.

Paul
---paul on 9/9/11


Do Jehovah's Witnesses 'contradict their own Greek Interlinnear because they won't call Jesus Jehovah'- (Warwick).

The Interlinear used by JW's was composed by Westcott and Hort- who were not JW's.

Other translators using God's name 'Jehovah' at Romans 14:7-9:

- Christian Greek Scriptures by Elias Hunter, Nuremburg 1599.
- Christians Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Robertson, London 1661
- The New Testament... In Hebrew and English, by Richard Caddick, Vol I-III, containing Matthew to 1 Corinthians, London, 1798-1805.

These are but a few.

Careful translators draw the distinction between Jehovah God who is eternal, and Christ who 'died and came to life again'- Ro.14:9. Context Warwick, context.
---David8318 on 9/9/11


GOD's people by the way....know their shepherd. GOD's people ask, seek and knock. I luv-em.
---Trav on 9/9/11

Thats not what your witness reflects, Its not up to you to determine who Gods people are.

But He will have a talk with you one day about that.

Whether you agree with my tactics or not is irrelevant, I have called upon Jesus and He has saved me therefore I am a Christian and your brother as is Andy.

So you say you love God but you don't love His people.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

According to scripture you are a liar and know not God.

Paul
---paul on 9/9/11


Rejection of the the personhood of the Holy Spirit means they cut themselves off from the spiritual understanding which communion with the Holy Spirit confers.
---Warwick on 9/9/11

Not siding with the direction or path of JW's search for truth.
But, noting their disregard of your mouthpiece witness, as connected and same as your disregard of the OT prophets.
This disregard is the deficit of your understanding.
You speak of the Holy Spirit but avoid the instruments he used.
Isa 43:9
Let all the nations be gathered together, let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
---Trav on 9/9/11


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Aka, your post of 9/9/11- I was with you & in agreement until your final paragraph when you go off track and lead us down the dark Neo-Platonic, trinitarian route. You state, 'Jehovah is Jehovah, Jesus is Jesus, The HS is the HS' which sounds great, but then you say, 'and all three are Elohim'.

If all three are 'Elohim' then you are preaching polytheism. Where does the Bible say HS is 'Elohim'? Where does the Bible say Jesus is 'Elohim'? The only verse you quote says 'Jehovah is God (Elohim)' and you already agreed in the same sentence that 'Jesus is not Jehovah'!

So if Jesus is not Jehovah but is 'Elohim' you must be a polytheist! You are either contradicting yourself or are a polytheist trinitarian (perhaps both!).
---David8318 on 9/9/11


"Apostates" Marc, Warwick, aka (2)

Your religious affiliations are not important to me. And I've not railed against my former faith.

An argument based on (or in defense of) God's word stands or falls on the ability to "handl[e] aright the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

In a court of law Character Assassination (or the attempt) does not make a stronger case, it indicates the opposite. Either the case is weak or the attorneys have not done their homework or are ill prepared.

However a jury of peers can easily identify this tactic for what it is. Sleazy.

When Christ was tempted by Satan there was a lot that he could have said in response. What he did say was "It is written..."
---scott on 9/9/11


"Deceitfully wrong - John 14:7-9" Warwick

John 14:7-9? Really?

Would you like to try again?
---scott on 9/9/11


Trav
I truly do feel sorry for you, it must be a miserable existence to be so devoid of Gods purpose ....

Your lack of love for god's people is evident in that.
---paul on 9/8/11

Give your pity,too a hireling. Being free in my Lord from false ministries,and non called ministers make me giddy with joy. I sing and dance before the Lord because of it. Diff between you and me is I asked emphatically to be set free. You've yet to do this fundamental step.
Truth set me free from the non scripturally witnessed.
GOD's people by the way....know their shepherd. GOD's people ask, seek and knock. I luv-em.
Job 7:2
As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:
---Trav on 9/9/11


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"Apostates" Marc, Warwick, aka (1)

But that is precisely the point. There is no additional weight added to someone's case or argument (mine included) because he is an Ex-Anything...Ex-Fundamentalist, Ex-Church of Christ, Ex-Pentecostal, Catholic, Baptist or JW.

And those individuals grinding an axe on the internet about their former associations have to be viewed with a healthy amount of skepticism because of the tendency to "act from a personal motivation to vindicate...showing [ones]self to have been first a victim...[then] a redeemed crusader...suggestible and ready to enlarge or embellish his grievances..."

Have you never wondered why I have not asked you your religious affiliations?
---scott on 9/9/11


Regarding 1Cor 5, remember God's word is spiritual and to be spiritually discerned. Try reading it as for spiritual fornication.
---Haz27 on 9/9/11
LOL OK, but I am 100% sure that this fornical in 1 cor 5 was carnal and physical but OK
---Francis on 9/9/11


Thanks for the answer James.

To me it is not ambiguous but a succinct way of expressing Jesus' reality. i.e being fully man he is a man, real flesh and blood man, with all that entails. This is his physical nature, a man in the line of Adam, called the second Adam.

Conversely God is not flesh, not physical, but pure spirit-Jesus' second nature. This nature was not created but was His by right, from eternity, He being God.

JW's create a strawman argument falsely claiming we worship three God's as they are indoctrinated into a purely physical view of the trinity. Rejection of the the personhood of the Holy Spirit means they cut themselves off from the spiritual understanding which communion with the Holy Spirit confers.
---Warwick on 9/9/11


//Thomas likely speaking Hebrew said '...my God' as nearly all translations will agree. //

Agreed. NWT John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: My Lord and my God! [Thomas was addressing Jesus.]

//deny the words of Christ when he said, 'I am ascending to my God'- Jo.20:17.//

Some make it even seem like that is the whole verse by not using elipses: NWT 17 Jesus said to her: Stop clinging to me.[very loose Greek] For I have not yet ascended ...I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.

//Jesus is not Jehovah// Correct. Jehovah is Jehovah, Jesus is Jesus, The HS is the HS, and all three are Elohim. 3 For I am Jehovah your God [Elohim], the Holy One of Israel your Savior.
---aka on 9/9/11


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Scott avoids using the New World Translation because it is deceitfully wrong.

One example:

John 14:7-9 "For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living."

'Lord' is a translation of the Greek root 'Kyrios.' The NWT replaces Lord with 'Jehovah' for the first 3 occurrences. When 'Kyrios' follows Jesus they use 'Lord', contradicting their own Greek Interlinnear because they won't call Jesus Jehovah!
---Warwick on 9/9/11


Paul, you said,
"I do understand it, and I also except what Jesus Himself stated numerous times."
I also understand it, but I understand that He said those words from His human nature. Always submissive to the Father. He was sinless in His humanity in order to complete His purpose as a sinless sacrifice. If He disobeyed He would not be sinless in His humanity. In His Divine nature He was always the Son who came from God. And when Jesus died, His humanity died. Not His Divine nature. When He died He gave up the Ghost to the Father. And God resurrected Jesus the Human in His flesh. As we will one day. The difference is that the Son came from God, Jesus in His humanity came from the seed of David, we came from our parents.
---Mark_V. on 9/9/11


Francis:
We agree, "I cannot say who will go to heaven or lake of fire".

Regarding if we know someone is doing wrong, King David is good example. His adultery/murder resulted in discipline FROM GOD. God works this way in each of us.

Regarding 1Cor 5, remember God's word is spiritual and to be spiritually discerned. Try reading it as for spiritual fornication.

Consider 1Cor 2:13,14
"These things we also speak, not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED."."
---Haz27 on 9/9/11


And you may want to invest in a version of spell check.
Paul
---paul on 9/7/11

No harm no fowl,
Paul
---paul on 9/8/11

I pray God will shine Hie light into your dark heart.

Paul
---paul on 9/7/11

...being forced off coarse
---paul on 8/19/11

Mark
...Jesus who they want Him ti be is where you looses me.
---paul on 9/8/11


We seldom correct spelling errors here in that the most practiced scholar makes them. But,you being a legend in your own mind...thought I'd point out your brain checker is skipping. Sip your own medicine Shaman.
Col 2:18
...., intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
---Tra on 9/9/11


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Paul quotes the Cretan Epimenides: ''Cretans are always liars.'' (Titus 1:12) Can you believe Epimenides is telling the truth? After all, Epimenides is a Cretan who says Cretans can't be trusted.

Scott, an apostate from the Trinitarian Church, declares apostates who publicly turn on their former church can't be trusted. Can you believe Scott's words? After all, he's an apostate who publicly says apostates can't be trusted.

Oh, Scott, seems like you've just shot yourself in the foot!
---Marc on 9/8/11


Warwick,

"fully God, fully man" does not get specific as to exactly what constitutes a nature.

Does Jesus have a divine or human body?
Does He have a divine or human spirit?

"fully God, fully man" doesn't give either answer, so it is ambiguous.

I think I understand the backdrop as to why the ambiguity in the creeds. In my reading of the church Fathers, it seems that there was such a pressing concern about Gnosticism that there is almost no mentnon of any distinction between the spirit and the flesh, whether of Jesus or us.

It's very similar to the term "sin nature" which is not in scripture, and also confuses the spirit and flesh.
---James_L on 9/8/11


Scott, I forget nothing! You gave the quote from Wilson to 'poison the well' against what any exJW may say. You are saying we should not trust such apostates.

But you claim you are an apostate Trinitarian Baptist. Therefore if we follow your advice we should not trust anything you say anout Trinitarianism, should we?

Not that I ever did.
---Warwick on 9/8/11


apostate - One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.

By definition...Ronald Reagan, (Saul) Paul, and C.S. Lewis are all apostate according to Democrats, Judaists, and atheists.

all sinners who are now saints are apostate in a sense.

according to Bryan Wilson anybody who made a change in their life is apostate and therefore unreliable when addressing their abandoned roots.

//I used to be a Baptist Trinitarian//...scott

or are you really saying that anyone who is not JW is apostate?
---aka on 9/8/11


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---Haz27 on 9/8/11
What do you mean we should not judge? Are you saying that if we see one doing sin we cannot say it is sin, or are you saying that we cannot determine who will go to heaven or lake of fire.

Do not judge to me, means that i cannot say who will go to heaven or lake of fire.
People repent all the time,

But I can tell a brother or sister when he or she is commiting sin, and love them back to jesus, that is not judging.

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person
---francis on 9/8/11


Until you understand it, do not teach against it.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/11

Mark

I do understand it, and I also except what Jesus Himself stated numerous times.

When men attempt to figure it out and make Jesus who they want Him ti be is where you looses me.

Jesus was referring to the Father of whom He is not when He prayed in the garden and in His many prayers to the Father.

Was He talking to Himself?

And the Father was speaking to His Son when Jesus was baptized.

Was He speaking of Himself?

You cant separate them when it is convenient then bring them back together for you doctrine sake.

Why cant you take Jesus at His Word?
---paul on 9/8/11


Scott,

Did you cut & paste Wilson's quote or did you tendentiously edited it to make it say something else?

The capitalised words are your omitted ones: ''AS VARIOUS INSTANCES HAVE INDICATED, he is likely to be suggestible and ready to enlarge or embellish his grievances TO SATISFY THAT SPECIES OF JOURNALIST WHOSE INTEREST IS MORE IN SENSATIONAL COPY THAN IN A OBJECTIVE STATEMENT OF THE TRUTH."

Wilson seems to be describing those who go to the media, not like sincere former ex-JWs who write their own books.

Scott, you're becoming either more desperate or more dishonest!
---Marc on 9/8/11


Christ Is God In The Flesh Blog

//my homework//---aka on 9/7/11


...Four out of the five men on the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training at all, and only a high school education. Franz studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati, but dropped out after his sophomore year. When asked in a Scotland courtroom if he could translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew, Franz replied that he could not. The truth is that Franz was unable to translate Hebrew or Greek.

What we have is a very inexperienced translating committee that twisted Scripture to make it fit the Society's doctrine.
--Tower Watch
---aka on 9/8/11


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Francis:
We both know flesh fails. God saw this too.
Rom8:3 "what the (SPIRITUAL) law could NOT do, in that it was WEAK through the FLESH".

Hence the cross, that the "righteousness of the law might be fullfilled in us..." Rom8:4

This is not a licence to do wrong in this physical life, nor will we profit by doing wrong.
BUT we should NOT judge according to the flesh. As ALL would be GUILTY, condemned.

Regarding "sin no more".
Rom8:1 There's NO condemnation to those in Christ Jesus
1John3:9 "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his seed (Christ) remains in him, and he CANNOT sin"

We CANT be accused of sin when our life is hid with Christ

---Haz27 on 9/8/11


'Trusting what those who leave a denomination say about it'. Warwick

Warwick forgets that I used to be a Baptist Trinitarian...

...And Bart D. Ehrman was a born again, Fundamentalist Christian.
---scott on 9/8/11


--Haz27 on 9/8/11
We accept is as it is and it is true. If you commit adultery, you are just as guilty of sin as if you commit murder. It really does not matter which of the commandments you break, you are still guilty of sin.
That being said, do we then continue to live in sin.

The wrong interpretation of James is to think that we should not obey the whole law because we may have been guilty of breaking the law IN THE PAST.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
Then what, 2 Peter 2:22 The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire?

NO we go and SIN NO MORE
---Francis on 9/8/11


Scott has given us a quote aimed at making us believe we cannot trust what those who leave a religion or denomination say about it.

This is what is called the 'poisoned well argument.'

In this crass form of argument the first speaker cast doubt on the second speakers integrity ("He has been accused of interfering with children.") This is aimed at undermining whatever the second speaker says, even before he utters a word. It is malicious gossip. A typically devious tactic used by such as the WTS. Am I therefore poisoning the well? No, they have done that for themselves.

The JW's are also masters of the strawman argument.
---Warwick on 9/8/11


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"Homework" aka

You might consider doing your homework in places other that anti-Witness sites if you want accurate information. Somehow I don't believe that is your goal.

Recall Marc's recent misstep of shouting (in caps) that the WTS wrote a "WHOLE article" about Greber. This was clearly false.

And think about this: you have stated "[JWs] make very little use of other Bibles. [only to discredit]."

Really? I have posted 100s (maybe 1,000s) of verses in support of my views over the years here (before and after becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses).

Find one that is from the NWT (unless it's a discussion about translational differences).

Take your time.
---scott on 9/8/11


"Homework" aka

Anti-witness sites by ex-Witnesses, etc., are unreliable.

"Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence. He must always be seen as one whose personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious commitment and affiliations...

...he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself...showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently to have become a redeemed crusader...likely to be suggestible and ready to enlarge or embellish his grievances..."

'Apostates and New Religious Movements', Bryan Wilson, Ph.D., University of Oxford
---scott on 9/8/11


Francis said:
"SDA accept the fact that christians do stumble from time to time."

So why do SDA misquote James2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE point, they are guilty of ALL."?

They condemn through it.

But there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.Rom8:1

We are a new creation.
We no longer regard each other according to the flesh 2Cor5:16
I no longer live but Christ lives in me.

That dead old man we still see physically will often "stumble". Dont judge it and thereby determine someone is not Christian.

The criminal on cross next to Jesus was a criminal till the day he died. Yet was saved.
---Haz27 on 9/8/11


Paul, You know I love you and only want the best for you especially because you have a church. And it is of the most importance that you know how to relate this Truth about the Son of God. Until you understand it, do not teach against it. God will reveal it to you, this is the most important doctrine on the essentails of the Christian faith. No other Jesus will do. Only the One with two natures will do. The One of God, and one of the seed of David born of Mary will do.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/11


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Paul, there is neither evasion nor contradiction in what I wrote.

There is no contradiction in your answers to questions either, simply because you evade answering.

When someone will not answer it is obvious they have something to hide!
---Warwick on 9/8/11


Christ Is God In The Flesh Blog

//my homework//---aka on 9/7/11

The New World Translation of the Bible is Jehovah's Witnesses own translation, no other religious group uses this Bible and Jehovah's Witnesses make very little use of other Bibles. [only to discredit]

The translators of The New World Translation were: Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, Fred Franz, M. Henschel. "Fred Franz was the only one with any knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew." ["Crisis of Conscience", by Raymond Franz, Commentary Press, Atlanta, 1983 edition, footnote 15, page 50.]...
---aka on 9/8/11


Previously Scott references Alan Duthie's 'How to Choose your Bible Wisely', noting that the author included Greber's demonically-inspired (as admitted by The Watchtower) New Testament in an exhaustive list of modern translations. From this Scott ''reasons'' that is admission of its worthiness. My copy makes no further ''mention'' of Greber's [mis]translation. All it signifies is that Greber published a translation. Big deal?!

Yes Scott, do refresh our collective memory about how long Watchtower used Greber's spiritualistic translation for, being fully aware that he had communed with demons. Was it 40 years?
---Marc on 9/8/11


Jason,

The arguments for and against the Majority Text being THE text are long and complex. Many pro MT web sites push a theological and one-eyed agenda which borders on mega-conspiratorial psychosis. Hence the ubiquitous ad hominem directed at Westcott and Hort.

I suggest you read Gordon Fee's insightful discussion 'The Majority Text and the Original Text of the New Testament' in his and Epp's ''Studies in the Theory and Method of New Testament Textual Criticism''. It's not the final word, but it presents the other side.

I have downloaded Westcott's letters and will read them soon. Thanks.
---Marc on 9/8/11


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>---Haz27 on 9/7/11
I think I understand what you are trying to say. Let me see if I get it right:
Are you trying to say that christians have a new nature, that the old man who lived in sin is dead, and that the new man desires to keep the law of God, yet he fails occasionally. Not that he plans to sin, but that at times he slipes or as God puts it stumbles? I would agree 100% with that.

The only part which you got dead wrong is this: "it would never be perfect enough as SDA's demand under the law."

NOTE: SDA practice foot washing, confession and repentance EVEN AFTER ACCEPTING JESUS. Which means that SDA accept the fact that christians do stumble from time to time. YET God and SDA do not take sin lightly!
---Francis on 9/8/11


Jason,

Like Hort, I believe substitutionary atonement, is held by Calvinists today, as nonsense. It's not the original soteriological theory, btw. See for example Gustaf Aulen's ''Christus Victor''.

Although I uphold the historical accuracy of Genesis 1-15, am a biblical and scientific creationist, just because other Christians reject these I cannot impute that they aren't Christian. Stupid, irrational, biblically illiterate, stubborn and/or dishonest, but not necessarily non-Christian.

Hort may have not been a Christian. I concede this. Maybe just an atheist academic. That shouldn't exclude him from translation work.
---marc on 9/8/11


James what is ambiguous about 'fully God fully man?'
---Warwick on 9/8/11


Francis:
In other thread you claimed keeping the 10 commandments to be justified. Can you please explain it.

As all SDA's are GUILTY of ALL the law because they offend in at least ONE point (James2:10) that means no SDA is justified according to their own doctrine.

BUT, "What the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own SON....condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us..."
Rom8:3,4

The SDA doctrine preaches condemnation, even for you.
BUT, there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus Rom8:1
---Haz27 on 9/8/11


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Be Honest,Have You ever voted Yourself "helpful blogger"?
i did :) ---kevin5443 on 9/7/11

i did out of curiosity of what it would do. then, i did it 14 other times ... just really curious.

LOL...just once.
---aka on 9/7/11


Why should I spend time explaining in detail to someone who evades giving answers? Do some homework and read Hebrews chapters 1 & 2. They perfectly demonstrate that Jesus is both fully God, and fully man.

No evasion here!
---Warwick on 9/7/11

I did not ask you to explain anything, simply pointing out your contradictory language of evasion.

Paul
---paul on 9/7/11


\\If Jesus is God how was He tempted?\\
---paul on 9/7/11

Jesus was tempted in the flesh.

No ambiguous "fully God, fully man" in scripture.

God is Spirit. Jesus is the Word of God from everlasting. John 1:14 "He tented in us" (eskenosen en emin) or "He pitched His tent in our midst"

2Pet 1:13-14 Peter said he would soon die, putting off this "tent" (skenomati)

2Cor 5:1-4 Paul speaks of putting off this "tent" (skenous v1) and (skenei v3)

God (Who is Spirit)
with us (in a body just like ours)

This flesh is very strong. Only God had the will and strength to overcome the flesh. But that doesn't negate the power of the flesh to tempt.
---James_L on 9/7/11


Paul, the irony is that you do not endeavour to answer questions. I do.

However I wrote:

Where does Scripture say Jesus is fully God and fully man? In many places but it is perfectly summed up in Hebrews chapter 1 and chapter 2.

BTW Scripture does not have to literally say "fully God and fully man" for the meaning to be clear.

Why should I spend time explaining in detail to someone who evades giving answers? Do some homework and read Hebrews chapters 1 & 2. They perfectly demonstrate that Jesus is both fully God, and fully man.

No evasion here!
---Warwick on 9/7/11


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As has been explained here many times "Scripture says" Jesus is fully God and fully man.
BTW "Scripture does not have to literally say" "fully God and fully man" for the meaning to be clear.
---Warwick on 9/7/11

My My, talk about evasion ,)

Paul
---paul on 9/7/11


Be Honest,Have You ever voted Yourself "helpful blogger"?
i did :)
---kevin5443 on 9/7/11


Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
---Trav on 9/7/11

Trav

Stop with your childish little vague generalizations.

If you have something in your crawl spit it out.

You have about five scriptures you keep reverting back to.

I am not impressed, nor is anyone else.


So you have a concordance with a search bar, very good.

Now look up some text on how to treat your brothers and sisters and realize we are the body and need to be working together.

Paul warned t5he church at Galatia of this in Gal 5:15

satans job is to devour so why do you desire to help him, make no mistake that is what your doing.
---paul on 9/7/11


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