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Is Grace Freedom To Sin

Does the term "under grace" mean "freedom to sin"?

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 ---jerry6593 on 9/9/11
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Ok Hebrews 10:26-29 is talking about the wilful sin of rejecting Jesus Christ for animal sacrifice. Its what the entire BOOK of Hebrews is about. Keep it in context.

There isnt ONE single Christian out there who hasnt committed a "wilful" sin. And that very likely on a daily basis. We are ALL tempted and fall at our weak moments.
---CraigA on 9/15/11


Haz, you claim we CANNOT SIN quoting from 1 John 3:9 However this verse means that once saved we cannot live in intentional persistent sin. As Gill says the one saved "doth not commit sin, does not make it his trade and business,...not the constant course of his life,..does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it, he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it,..."

This concurs with 1 John 1:8.

I am sure Christians have committed adultery, repented of it and been forgiven. But can a Christian continue in adultery, as a habit?
---Warwick on 9/15/11


Warwick:
You've seen how difficult it is at first for people to comprehend Genesis creation after indoctrination by evolution.
Likewise this issue of what is sin and does it apply to new creation Christians.

We should use God's definitions of sin to understand scriptures, not man's traditional definition.
Sin is:
1:transgression of the law 1John3:4. But you know we are NOT UNDER it. Rom8:2

2:Unbelief in Jesus John16:9
This is what the world will be convicted of. And to go under the law is unbelief.

Regarding 1Pet5:8,9, the devil seeks to get us into UNBELIEF. Getting us under the law does it. So resist him "stedfast in the FAITH".
Continue to believe on Jesus.





---Haz27 on 9/15/11


MarkV, your comment to me was the most ignorant statement you have made here so far. OK so you asked God three times to remove it, He said NO, and what was Paul's final truimph through it?

You see Markv, if the POWER of Christ was real resting upon you through your WEAKNESS, you my friend would have the answer to the Question. HIS POWER would have revealed the answer.

I already KNOW the answer MarkV. Your PRIDE refuses to ask God the answer.

PLUS according to verse 10, HE REJOICED in it because of what Christ was doing through him.....YOU DO NOT, refusing how He works in our lives.

OR MarkV, in the Body of Christ IRON sharpens IRON, but you, a lone broken pencil in the body of Christ refuse to be sharpened.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11


MarkV, you know, when you speak, using scripture to hurl curses at another in Christ, The Holy Spirit has revealed to me, that is NOT of Him or even from Him, but the devil. Paul never said that in hurling a curse at anyone. We really don't know what that thorn was, but we know it wasn't another person.

But even those words to me MarkV are not a thorn in my flesh, or are you.

You're an inspiration of learning truth through lies. And oh how much I have learned through yours.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11




Warwick, "if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin..." Rom8:10

Rom6:7 "he that is dead is FREED from sin".

Rom6:18 "Being made FREE from sin..."

1Pet4:1 "he that has suffered in the flesh (your old man crucified Rom6:6) has CEASED from sin"

Those born of God CANNOT sin 1John3:9

This is not talking about what we see in the physical. It's dead anyway. Why judge it according to the law? We would ALL be guilty of ALL the commandments if we judged like this.

Instead we should see ourselves as the new creation 2Cor5:16.

Our works are to believe on Jesus John6:9.

Don't turn to dead works of self-righteousness through the law.
---Haz27 on 9/15/11


Mark, I'm puzzled by your statement you made to kathr.

Paul wrote that to share a lesson with us. When I first read these words, it was amazing. God showed me I was still in the flesh, trying to deal with things in the flesh, just as God showed Paul. He learned through that the power of walking in the Spirit.
---James on 9/15/11


We have many kinds of sins, some more sinful then others. Sin is pictured as an archer releasing an arrow and missing the mark. The mark that is missed is not a target, it is the norm of God's law. God's law expresses His own righteousness and is the ultimate standard for our behavior. "For all sin and come short of the glory of God." All means all. Sin is a lack or want of conformity. A sin of "omission" is a failure to do what God commands. If God commands us to love our neighbor and we fail that is sin. Sin is also defined as a transgression of the law. We walk where we are not permitted to walk and is a sin of "Commission."
Anything without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is also sin.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/11


Warwick:
In regards to wrong behaviour (traditionally labelled sin by man's definitions), I am not saying we don't do wrong in the physical. ---Haz27 on 9/14/11

I believe this is what the Gnostics taught. Gnostics believed that they could do anything in the flesh because the flesh no longer mattered.

Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, Body, Soul and Spirit. Our Flesh now lives by the Faith of Christ, as His life in us, however bad behavior doesn't come from Christ, it comes from our flesh, or SIN Nature. Many here, showing their fleshly bad behavior are not walking in the Spirit, and therefore sinning.

Relabeling sin bad behavior is as bad as relabeling it a disease we need to join a support group for.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11


Warwick:
In regards to wrong behaviour (traditionally labelled sin by man's definitions), I am not saying we don't do wrong in the physical. An example is King David's adultery/murder for which he was disciplined.

I am referring to our new creation man (who is how we should see ourselves 2Cor5:16), does not sin. We believe on Jesus. Our righteousness is in him.

So based on God's definitions of sin we (the new creation) do not sin.
We are not under law, hence no sin.
We believe on Jesus, hence no sin.

If we judge according to the flesh (which is supposed to be dead by faith anyway)then you will never make it. To bring yourself under the law you will only be guilty of ALL anyway (James2:10) and this is UNBELIEF.
---Haz27 on 9/14/11




Haz, let me say this to you concerning "wilfully sinning" or wilfull sin.
No one sins unwilfully. The only way anyone sins unwilfully is if someone puts a gun to your head and said "sin or you die" or a gun to your childs head and you had to sin. You had no other choice. But everyone who sins sins wilfully. The temptation comes and they wilfully sin, they knew they shouldn't but the desire was too much so they wilfully sin. The believer regrets they have sinned after, because he is convicted, but the unbeliever doesn't mind because he answers to no one but himself.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


Haz, do you say we cannot sin or that continuing intentional sin is fine?

John says we are liars if we "claim to be without sin" Is this OK?

1 Peter 5:8,9 "...Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings."

If convinced we cannot sin we are in peril of ignoring the lion's roar, easy prey for Satan!

Why does he exhort us to "resist" if we are incapable of sin?

If grace covers all continuing sin why are we exhorted to avoid sin? If grace covers all how is a life of intentional, continuing sin a problem?
---Warwick on 9/14/11


Kathr, you have been a thorn on my side that God put on me as He did Paul. So I will not answer any of your heretical views anymore. So long as you are a heretic, there is no reason to try to even answer you. You do not deserve an answer when you teach another Jesus. I cannot bring belief to your heart, only the Father can. You will remain who you are and I know I have not heard the last of you, just as before.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


Warwick:
Heb 10:26-29 "if we sin wilfully.."
Using God's definitions of sin lets exmaine this.

If you're UNDER law and transgress it, it's sin (1John3:4). Are Christians under law?
No. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE.." Rom 8:2

But if you bring yourself under the law, then you will be found a (sinner)transgressor of ALL of it (James 2:10).
And being under law is seeking to establish your own righteousness and not submitting to the righteousness of God Rom10:3,4.

This is to sin "wilfully".
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
This is UNBELIEF (John16:9).
You're either righteous in Christ OR you're a sinner whose wages are death.
---Haz27 on 9/14/11


MarkV it is such a shame that you know everthing there is to know and have no room to learn anything else. That's called pride.

You put up your wall of pride because you are the one who fails to spend time with the Lord GROWING daily in the Grace and Knowledge of Him. You are simply brainwashed by the doctrine of men, seering your own conscience. Too bad!
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


How do you explain this MarkV.

If the Begotten did not die, the Begotten did not resurrect. The FIRST Begotten of the Dead, was raised from the dead in a BODY of flesh. How and when did He come by that FLESH?


---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


MarkV are you going to answer the question here or just blow off smoke and mirrors because you can't give a good explaination.

Or did Calvin Not cover this?
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


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Jim. I know of no scripture which says this prayer is obsolete.

1 John 1:8 is definitely after the cross "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

As is Hebrews 10:26-29 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.....How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
---Warwick on 9/14/11


Warwick:
Regarding your question about "forgive us our sins...", Jim is correct, that was before the cross.

Did you note the evangelical context of 1John1?

How would you explain 1Pet4:18 "If the righteous are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear".
Clearly 2 different groups.
1: Righteous (and saved)
2: Sinner/ ungodly
You can't be both.

Using God's definitions of sin and depending on context, to say someone "sins' is to claim one of the following:
1:they are under the law and transgressed it.
2:Unbelief in Jesus
3:blasphemy of Holy Spirit.

Our life is hid with Christ in God. How do you think God sees us?
---Haz27 on 9/14/11


Haz no matter how you try to evade the point we were not freed from the dead law so as to live lives of deliberate sin. 1 John 1:8 could not be clearer "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

If we cannot sin after salvation why would we "confess our sins" and what would God have to "forgive."
---Warwick on 9/14/11


Kathr, as I said before you can examine anything you want and believe anything you want but you are still teaching and looking for ways to discredit the Lord of His Deity. You will look into anything I say, but your intend is wrong and does not change the Deity of Christ. If you were looking for the Truth you would not be opposing me, but getting an education on Christology instead of picking on verses that seem to imply something totally different then what the writers intend was. So find time to study, before you talk. then I will listen to what you have to say. You need a change of heart first and foremost. As I said before also, the Father has to do that. If you continue your way, it is because He has not done that yet.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


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Just as He was resurrected so will believers be resurrected.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11

Lets examine this. God raised Jesus from the dead through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant. Hebrews 13:20-21.

But I do find it interesting you do see that resurrection in 1st Corinthians 15 so closely relates to this subject.

Did Jesus mortal flesh have to put on immortality, like us? Christ had to put on Christ to be resurrected. Christ had to be In Christ, to be resurrected? Jesus had to eat His Own Flesh and Blood to be raised up?

OR Are you raised an individual little God, separate from Christ? Or is your resurrection only BECAUSE you are IN Christ?

OR are you bringing Christ down to man or man UP WITH Christ?
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


He gave up His Divine Spirit back to the Father. His Divine nature did not die, Jesus Christ the incarnate died, but even death could not hold on to His body. Just as He was resurrected so will believers be resurrected.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


MarkV, did Jesus give back His divine nature before or after He said. My God My God, why has thou forsaken me?

So, His Spirit went to Heaven, His soul went where? And who was where for 3 days? Was Jesus resurrected only a man, who is still just a man now? So you are saying Jesus is not God even Now?
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


How do you explain this MarkV.

If the Begotten did not die, the Begotten did not resurrect. The FIRST Begotten of the Dead, was raised from the dead in a BODY of flesh. How and when did He come by that FLESH?

---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


Under Grace by no means means free to sin.

Rom. 6:18 "Having been set free from sin, you have been enslaved to righteousness. Who enslaved us to righteousness? God. After setting us free from sin, He then enslaved us to righteousness.

Paul says again in Phil 3, not having a Righteousness of my own, but the Righteousness that comes by Christ. Gal 2:20-21, I am Cricified with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me, and teh life that I now live in the flesh I live by the Faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me, I do not make void the GRACE of God, for if Righteousness comes by the Law then Christ died in vain.

Paul spoke this to CHRISTIANS who were already JUSTIFIED.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


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Kathr, the word of God
"He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that come from heaven is above all" Christ Himself said,
"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me" John 3:38). In John 17:5,24 Christ speaks of His memory of the glory of heaven prior to His incarnation as an evidence for His preexistence. Right before the incarnate Jesus died on the Cross, and just before He died, He gave up His Divine Spirit back to the Father. His Divine nature did not die, Jesus Christ the incarnate died, but even death could not hold on to His body. Just as He was resurrected so will believers be resurrected.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


\\ Warwick // If "we cannot sin what did Jesus mean by "Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us"?

Warwick, that was before the cross.
How do you address this:
Col.2:13..God made you alive with Christ, He forgave us all our sins.
---JIM on 9/14/11


Haz the word for sin in 1 John 1:8 and 3:9 is the same Greek word.

Therefore you have John contradicting himself. He first says if we claim we are without sin we deceive ourselves, in 1 John 1:8, then according to you in 3:9 says we cannot sin!

If we cannot sin what did Jesus mean by "Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us?

If you are correct Jesus is wrong!!!
---Warwick on 9/14/11


When the risen Christ revealed the gospel of grace to Paul, there was not even a hint of a license to sin.
Eph. 3:2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation ( economy, or the administration) of the grace of God (the Law came to Israel through Moses. How did the doctrines of Grace get to the Gentiles?) which is given me to you-ward:"
Paul is our pattern, with never a hint of now you are saved, sin whenever you want.
---michael_e on 9/14/11


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kathr: "the LAW actually was something that came 400 years after Abraham"

What do you make of this?

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
---jerry6593 on 9/14/11


Warwick:
Perhaps another way to help understand 1John1:8 is if we try it using God's definition in 1John3:4 (sin is transgression of the law).

If 1John1:8 refers to Christians then it would imply they're under law.
Remember Rom3:19, what the law says it says to those UNDER IT

BUT, Romans8:2 we're "SET FREE from law".
Where there's NO law there's NO transgression Rom4:15

Rom8:10 "if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin"
Rom6:7 "he that is dead is FREED from sin"

1Pet4:18:
If the righteous are scarcely saved, where shall ungodly and sinner appear".
We are either righteous OR a sinner.

It's the sin of UNBELIEF the world is convicted of John16:9
---Haz27 on 9/14/11


Perhaps a couple verses can shed some light on this:

Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death"

How much condemnation is left after we are "in Christ"? What law have we been set free from?

Continuing on...

Rom 8:3-4 "...He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit"

Who does our walk look like?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/13/11


Warwick:
God's definitions of sin are required in understanding His word.

1John3:4. Sin is transgression of law.
But what law says it says to those UNDER IT Rom 3:19.
Set FREE from law Rom 8:2.
See also Rom4:15

Remember it's the sin of UNBELIEF (John16:9) the world will be convicted of.

Reading 1John1 from beginning, note it's evangelical context.
"Bear witness and show unto you eternal life", "declare we unto you that ye also may have fellowship...with the Father and His Son".

Verse 6-8 speaks in general terms to unsaved.
Note, to walk in darkness is to be without Christ.

Verse8 "If we (speaking in general terms to unsaved) say we have no sin (unbelief).

---Haz27 on 9/13/11


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MarkV tells us that the Only Begotten Son DIDN'T DIE! However John 3:16 says very clearly For God so loved the world He Gave His Only Begotten Son. God gave Jesus as a GIFT, the Lamb of God who Died on a cross for our sin. God GAVE the Only Begotten Son to Die on a Cross for our sin. And this same Begotten Son was raised for our JUSTIFICTION.

There would be no IMPUTED Righteousness of Christ without the death and resurrection of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

Until that is addressed MarkV will never get it!
---kathr4453 on 9/13/11


"Josef, we are saints because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Not because of our own righteousness. If you remove that imputed righteousness, there is nothing but sin in all of us." Amen Mark. Fortunately for us that imputed righteousness will not be removed once embraced. For the Father "hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Mark you are obviously speaking from a practical position, and from that position you are absolutely correct. Haz and I speak from our place positionally, and from that place we are also correct. Therefore there is actually no conflict between us:o) Be blessed Mark, and thank you for you response.
---Josef on 9/13/11


Haz, If 1 John 3:9 literally means the saved cannot sin then John has contradicted himself within the one Epistle. See 1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

If we cannot sin why did Jesus tell His disciple to pray "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us"?

From what I read, and understand, 1 John 3:9 is referring to Christians who lead lives of intentional, consistent sin. "the settled habit of it" as John R. Stott says. The verse uses the Greek 'poiein' which confers the meaning of doing sin, a continuing act. Sin as "a prevailing habit, not primarily an act" as Westcott says.
---Warwick on 9/13/11


//Then we have those in Hebrews 3 and 4 who fell short of salvation because they did not enter His Rest, but I bet they kept the sabbath but nothing about the others.

Any good commentary will say these people were those slipping back into the Jewish sacrifical and legal system since there would no longer be any sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:26f //

leej, when Israel failed to take the Land BY FAITH, as the GOSPEL was preached to them as well as US, Jesus had not died and risen YET.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/11


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leej, yes it would appear the heart is what was more concerninng to the Lord. A heart like Abel, or Job, or Abraham, where the LAW actually was something that came 400 years after Abraham and did not null and void out the Covenant God had with Abraham. And since we Are Abraham's, those anyway who have the faith of Abraham aren't in a Covenant to be lawkeepers any more than he was. The ralationship was on a higher and more personal ground. Abraham was a FRIEND of God. Enoch walked with God.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11


Peter, when I wrote about Christians who continue to sin I was referring to those who willingly, as a lifestyle sin.

Gills commentary on 1 John 3:9 says "doth not commit sin, does not make it his trade and business, it is not the constant course of his life, he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it, he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it.."

We all sin but God knows the difference between those who struggle and are repentant, and those who wilfully continue in a life of sin.

---Warwick on 9/12/11


Francis:
You claim repenatnce is we "STOP BREAKING THE LAW and seek forgiveness.

BUT:
Mark 1:15 Jesus said:
"Repent, and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

Heb 6:1:"...not laying again the foundation of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS"

Heb 9:14 "how much more shall the blood of Christ... CLEANSE your conscience from DEAD WORKS.."

Scriptures show repentance is from DEAD WORKS.
Example Rom 10:3:
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."
---Haz27 on 9/12/11


Warwick said:
"Some say that once saved we cannot sin, having become perfect. This is delusion,"

But God says:
Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has PERFECTED forever them that are sanctified."

1John3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does NOT SIN, for His seed remains in him, and he CANNOT SIN, because he has been born of God.

1Pet4:18 shows you are either righteous OR a sinner. You CANT be both.

John 8:36 "if the Son therefore shall make you free (from sin), you shall be free indeed"



---Haz27 on 9/12/11


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No, grace means forgiveness granted only to the repentant, for God gives no one permission to sin.
---Eloy on 9/11/11


//Then we have those in Hebrews 3 and 4 who fell short of salvation because they did not enter His Rest, but I bet they kept the sabbath but nothing about the others.

Any good commentary will say these people were those slipping back into the Jewish sacrifical and legal system since there would no longer be any sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:26f

Yes, most likely they were Sabbath keepers and did the Levitical dietary laws as well.

Used to go to one of those 'holiness' churches that spent much time in Hebrews teaching that one could lose eternal salvation. Never did join, but went there because that is where my babysitter went and I was a single parent at that time.

But I learn much of the Bible from them.
---leej on 9/11/11


In reality 1 John 3:9 says otherwise "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God" -i.e. once saved we will not continue on a life of wilfull sin.

Regarding this verse:

Barnes says "those who are born of God will not be characteristically and habitually sinners,..."

Gill says "doth not commit sin, does not make it his trade and business, ...the constant course of his life"

Hebrews 10:26-29 "If we deliberately keep on sinning" (breaking God's moral law) then there is nothing left to save us, judgement awaits, because we have "trampled the Son of God under foot..."
---Warwick on 9/11/11


Some say that once saved we cannot sin, having become perfect. This is delusion, as we all sin, though do not continue in lives of wilfull sin. Jesus said "No one is good--except God alone."

Some believe once under grace we can freely sin. They are also deluded.

The reality is we are saved and God's moral law is close and real, being written upon our hearts. This means we have been given a personal understanding of God's holiness and His commands regarding how we live our lives. We have been given spiritual sensitivity to understand how repugnant a life of wilfull sin is. We have been given an insight into how God regards sin.

But can we wilfully, as a lifestyle, break God's law? Definiterly not!
---Warwick on 9/11/11


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kathr:
You misunderstood me.
Legalists claim keeping commandments is a must for salvation. This IS unbelief.
The message is grace alone. Not grace + works of law. This is lukewarm and is spewed out.

You said, sin is rejection of the finished work on the cross. But legalists don't believe "Christ is end of the law" Rom10:4

Sorry, but using God's definitions of sin is not "narrowminded".

1:Transgression of Law? We aren't under it so no sin.
2:Unbelief? Christians believe so no sin
3:Unrighteousness? We're righteous in Christ, so no sin
4:Not of faith? We are justified by faith, so no sin.

1John3:9 those born of God CANNOT sin. This is because of the finished work of the cross.
---Haz27 on 9/11/11


Who do YOU see yourself as?

God describes 2 groups:
Righteous OR ungodly/sinner 1Peter4:18
Sheep OR goats
Children of Light OR darkness
Servant of righteousness OR servants of sin
Spiritually minded OR carnally minded.
New creation OR old man

How should believers see themselves?
I no longer live but Christ lives in me Gal 2:20
We regard no one according to the flesh. We are a new creation 2Cor5:16
Those born of God do not sin because His seed (Christ) remains in him 1John3:9
If the firstfruit (Christ) is holy, the lump is also holy Rom11:16

If this is who we are in Christ why would we still claim to be sinners?







---Haz27 on 9/11/11


Doesn't God own all things in heaven and on earth? If you pray to God and believe you receive don't you get it?
---tonne on 9/11/11


Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

To repent measn to TURN AWAY FROM SIN.

WHAT IS SIN:
1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law

Jesus was teaching that all should STOP BREAKING THE LAW and seek forgiveness
---Francis on 9/11/11


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MarkV: "we have not be glorified and will not until the Second Coming." And yet,2 Cor3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
I was just reading an old blog "What is a Judgmental Christian?" Read 'Linda'x responses on 7/14.07 and 7/16.07. for ex: "we don't know how glorious we are in Father's eyes. We need His vision."There's more, too much to fit here.

If we have the mind of Christ, our 'vision' is transformed, we see, more and more, as HE does. Glory to glory. If we are changed into that image, He is sinless...so????
---chria9396 on 9/11/11


//Where did Jesus ever say, I will keep the Law for you EXCEPT the Sabbath.

Was not Jesus more concerned with the heart than externals - the spirit behind the law more than observance of the law itself?

He did extend upon the law regarding murder, & adultery saying we sin if we have only the thought in our hearts.

While Jesus paid the penalty of our sins by obedience to the law, He redeemed us from the law.

Gal. 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

We need to follow Jesus, not the law but at the same time be rich in good works - 1 Tim. 6:18.


---leej on 9/11/11


We as believers by faith, are in the Covenant as lawkeepers, for Christ kept the whole law for us. "US" is the elect. Mark_V. on 9/7/11

James says if you break one you break them all.

Where did Jesus ever say, I will keep the Law for you EXCEPT the Sabbath .

Then we have those in Hebrews 3 and 4 who fell short of salvation because they did not enter His Rest,( but I bet they kept the sabbath) but nothing about the others

Oh what silly silly talk there is on here.


Haz27, neither you or MarkV know what GRACE IS. Not only are we saved by Grace, we stand in this Grace and GROW in this Grace.

Markv is Growing in the 10 commandmants and you're growing in nonsense.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11


Salvation is shown us in Hebrews 3-4, Entering His Rest/ Entering the Promise Land. To us it is entering into the Promisse of Eternal Life IN CHRIST. To US the Promise Land is Christ Himself, being IN CHRIST,is being In the Land.

However you will see, those who did enter, SINNED. We see the details of it, and the consequences of sin.

They also disobeyed God and gave the Gibbeonites a pass, also leading to a real thorn in their side for centuries.

The Gibeonites represent those little SINS you compromise. They come to you in desguise, appealig to your flesh. They too need to be Crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11


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As you can see, there is no difference. Whether you are saved or not, "All sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Everybody sins. There is no one perfect. Not a one. Before you can stand on one passage in Romans, you need to read the other passages in Romans.
---Mark_V. on 9/11/11

BOTH here does not mean saved and not saved, it means Jews and Gentiles alike.

God in Romans 3 has pronounced ALL under sin and death.

You can't go bacwards from Romand 4-8 to Romans 3.

Romans begins with the beginning, and lays down a consecutive order of the history of man, and the order of God's plan of salvation.

No one walked in the Spirit of the LIFE of the Risen Christ before He died and Rose again.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11


Josef, we are saints because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Not because of our own righteousness. If you remove that imputed righteousness, there is nothing but sin in all of us. We might have been forgiven but we have not be glorified and will not until the Second Coming. In the flesh we still sin. Even the sinners who are lost know we sin. Even God knows we still sin. So to say we are sinless is to contradict the word of God. All believers sin, for all come short of the glory of God even believers. We are saints because of our faith in Jesus Christ. Not because we don't sin. We walk in the light, because the light is in us, but we don't always walk in the light. Unbelieving sinners never walk in the light.
---Mark_V. on 9/11/11


The problem I see on this forum is what grace entailed. Some believe, like Warwick and his Adventists friends, that grace is something that takes you the rest of the way to eternal salvation AFTER you have done everything possible to observe the laws including observing the Sabbath, a law not commanded of His church.

To others grace means simply God's unmerited favor as you have been born spiritual in Him and have become a child of His. And in contrast to what the legalists believes, God is not a god that will commit fratricide.

I prefer the Bible dictionary definition of grace as undeserved acceptance and love received from another. Jesus came to save those that are lost and whomsoever believes in Him will have eternal life.
---leej on 9/11/11


//One is either a saint or a sinner, never both.//
agreed. but, sin can manifest itself through a saint.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

notice sin lies within and evil lies close. oh, wretched dogs that we are, who will save us from this never-ending evil argument?
---aka on 9/11/11


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Warwick, in your post on Sept 9, you put it very well, but there is, I think, one more issue.

We are, indeed, not allowed to sin under Grace, that is true. But if we all look back carefully enough (sometimes even simply look back), I think we can all find times when we sinned, often even when we had a good idea that (what we did) was not God's will.

So I think that we will sin sometimes, however much we desire not to....

I consider it is our desire not to sin that God really cares about, not whether we can manage to NEVER sin
---Peter on 9/11/11


Haz, you gave ( Romans 8:3,4,10) and misinterpret the passages since Paul had already said in ( Rom. 3:21-23),
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
As you can see, there is no difference. Whether you are saved or not, "All sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Everybody sins. There is no one perfect. Not a one. Before you can stand on one passage in Romans, you need to read the other passages in Romans.
---Mark_V. on 9/11/11


I know that Haz is perfectly capable of defending his position, one I totally agree with, so I will not attempt to do so.
Tell me Mark, Warwick, what is it about the scriptures that Haz has shared that you find arguable or disagreeable? One is either a saint or a sinner, never both. If you can disprove that statement scripturally,please do. Without using 1 John 1:8, the greek word "ou" should have been translated "not", 'If' that statement is directed toward those of us who walk in the light of Jesus, based on the previous verse. And in Him there is no sin. 1Jo 3:5 The word saint and sinner, to my understanding is not applicable synonymously, but rather separately and distinctively. 1 John 1:6
---Josef on 9/10/11


Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty [freedom], only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

yes, it does give us freedom. Freedom to serve the flesh or to serve the Spirit.

Read on in Galatians 5.
---aka on 9/11/11


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Warwick,
Forums are challenging places to get messages across. Often we need to explain a point DIFFERENT ways to make it clear.

We differ in definition of sin and application of the law.

Grace makes us "FREE from sin", "servants of rightesouness" Rom6:17,18

Your concerned about lifestyle, claiming failure to keep commandments well enough means your not Christian.


BUT, God says our old man is crucified. I no longer live but Christ lives in me. Hence we NO LONGER regard anyone according to the flesh. We're a new creation 2Cor 5:16.

The flesh will still stumble but it won't profit from wrongs (Example: King David).
Importantly, it's dead. We should not be condemning others by it.
---Haz27 on 9/11/11


Does being "Under Grace" give a License to sin?
Let's examine this question logically.

Hunting is against the Law if one has no license, but If they have a license, they are allowed to hunt.
Fishing is against the Law if one has no license, but If they have a license, they are allowed to fish.
Sin is against the Law of God, but if there are no consequences for that sin because you are "Under Grace", then one must have a license to sin.

I am not one who believes this, but there are many who do.
---David on 9/11/11


BUT being under law is UNBELIEF which is the "SIN" the world is convicted of John16:9.Haz27

John 16:9 says of sin because they believe not on me.


The Law here has nothing to do with what Jesus said in John 16:9

Many today simply do not believe in the Only Begotten Son who bore our sin, sacrificed Himself once and for all for our sin, and was raised up from the Dead.

SIN TODAY is total rejection of Jesus finished work on the cross.

And there are billions who have rejected this truth who were NEVER under the LAW to begin with

There are those who are a law unto themselves.

What a narrowminded way of defining sin and claiming because you are not under Law but Grace you can't sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/11


Haz, being under grace is not freedom to sin.

As I said previously I will leave it there as it is pointless arguing with you.
---Warwick on 9/10/11


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Warwick:
1John3:9 "those born of God CANNOT sin". God says so.

Regarding Heb6:6, speaks of falling away from grace.

And Heb10:26?
Remember "sin is transgression of law" (1John3:4).
"What law says it says to those UNDER IT" (Rom3:19).

Are you under law OR grace?
If you're under law and transgress it you "sin".
BUT being under law is UNBELIEF which is the "SIN" the world is convicted of John16:9.
If you continue to sin (see above) "fiery judgement awaits."

Sin was condemned in flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us
Rom 8:3,4,10.

What definition of "sin" do you use?





---Haz27 on 9/10/11


Some believe we can wilfully, persistently continue to sin after being saved, that grace covers all. Others believe after salvation we cannot sin.

Scripture, I believe says both positions are wrong.

Hebrews 10:26-29 says if we continue to sin (after being saved) there is nothing left to save us and fiery judgement awaits. It is linked to Numbers 15:30.

Hebrews 6:6 says those who wilfully continue in sin "are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

So what is sin-rejection of God's moral law which includes the 10 Commandments. But some say we can ignore this law, which is now near and clear-written on our hearts.. They are wrong, God's word says so.
---Warwick on 9/10/11


jerry6593:
Correct, sin is transgressing the law.

But, "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

And, "where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION."(sin) Rom4:15

You claim we must keep all TEN commandments

How PERFECTLY do you?
If you offend in ONE point YOU are GUILTY of ALL. James2:10.
Where do you stand now?

Better believe on Jesus as:
"what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us" Rom8:3,4

---Haz27 on 9/10/11


While everything here is good, I will have to add one more thing.

Since Jesus gave us the Lord's Prayer, and it is we say 'forgive us our sins', and we say the prayer not just when we become Christians, there must be some sin we ask forgiveness for.

I take it that, if we look carefully, there are some things that are not God's will, and we knew were not God's will.

Keeping our actions pure is possible, at least for a while. Keeping our thoughts pure, is much harder
---Peter on 9/10/11


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Josef, a great answer you gave. I have seen what believing in sinlessness does to people. We have one who can accuse everyone of sin but not himself already. The Spirit of Christ in a believer is sinless, and sanctifies the believer through his life, changing him day after day to be more Christ like. I have to disagree with Haz but I do understand why he opposes, because he wants to be identified as a saint not a sinner. But Jesus only saves sinners, not the self righteous. Again it reminds me of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, where the Pharisee prays, "God I thank You that I am not like other men" He exhalted himself above the tax collector who confessed, "God, be merciful to me a sinner"
---Mark_V. on 9/10/11


1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So, logically, since sin is the breaking of the Ten Commandment Law, freedom to sin is freedom to break the 10C Law or freedom to disobey God. Is grace then given to promote lawlessness? God forbid! Grace is the POWER of God given to enable the keeping of His Commandments - all TEN of them!
---jerry6593 on 9/10/11


Being "under Grace" involves Freedom from Sin. Freeing us from Sin is the thing that YAHUSHUA (JESUS CHRIST) died for. Freeing us from Sin makes us prepared to enter the sinless and Holy Heaven.
---Gordon on 9/10/11


Josef is correct saying
""Does the term "under grace" mean "freedom to sin"?" No.
"It actually means the opposite. Grace is that which allows us to be "made free from sin", that we may be servants of righteousness, "the righteousness which is of God by faith"---Josef on 9/9/11

Confirmed in scriptures such as:
1John3:9 "Those born of God cannot sin"

We "WERE servants of sin" but were "made FREE from sin" and "BECAME the servants of rightesouness" Rom 6: 17,18

"He that is dead is FREED from sin" Rom 6:7
---Haz27 on 9/9/11


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Josef, " "Does the term "under grace" mean "freedom to sin"?" No.It actually means the opposite." This is awesome, Opposite of freedom to sin, would be freedom to NOT sin. So true! And Amen to the rest!
---chria9396 on 9/9/11


Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Romans 6:2 God forbid
---francis on 9/9/11


"Does the term "under grace" mean "freedom to sin"?" No.
It actually means the opposite. Grace is that which allows us to be "made free from sin", that we may be servants of righteousness, "the righteousness which is of God by faith" . To be under grace is to be under the Divine influence and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
---Josef on 9/9/11


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