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Is Christ God - Continued

Is Christ God - Continued

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 ---Bruce5656 on 9/12/11
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"Scott you write "PROSKUNEO ...make obeisance...reverence...used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ..., (b) to Christ ..., (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26." Vines. Warwick

You give me too much credit.

Actually W. E. Vine wrote this in his 'Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words'.

Clearly, if 'proskuneo' (worship) can be scripturally applied to a man (used in a illustration by Christ himself in Matthew) and the same exact word is directed toward the Almighty, there are shades of meaning that are driven by context as well as a first century understanding of the Greek word itself.
---scott on 9/14/11


Paul- I identified where your ignorance has led you and the false assumptions you conclude as a result of your ignorance.

You were not aware of why NIV and other translations omit the verses at Matthew 17:21, Acts 8:37 and Romans 16:24 until I drew it to your attention. Otherwise you would not have made the farcical statement that the NIV 'expels scriptures at will'. NIV, ASV and others omit these verses for genuine scholarly reasons- reasons for which are 'irrelevant' in your mind as is 1 Cor.5:13.

So Paul your claim that the Jehovah's Witnesses have somehow deceived me is rich coming from someone who wallows in self-deceit. Hypocritical comes to mind. What did Jesus say about that 'rafter in your own eye'? (Matt.7:1-5)
---David8318 on 9/14/11


Blogger9211, I have problems with hiccups too!

I only know what the Holy Spirit taught me. I tend to believe HIM over you Blogger9211.

I and the Father are One. Yes, Jesus is the SON of God (paul who posted below) but they are ONE and the SAME in different form. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

You can kind of tell which people here are being taught by the Holy Spirit and which learned theology by studying the bible on their own.

Truth is revealed, not taught.

Blessed are you Simon Barjona for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you buy my Father who is in heaven. Holy Spirit please forgive us for distorting the diety of You, Jesus and Father God, Lord have mercy on us.
---Donna5535 on 9/14/11


One day every knee will bow and confess Jesus Christ as LORD to the Glory of the Father.

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


but also believe in the Eternal Sonship of God by faith, for it is reveal to him by the Father. If any pastor is teaching a different Jesus, that person cannot be a true pastor
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11

Mark

So in other Words, If I don't teach it the way you say I am not fit to be a Pastor?

I thought God was the one who decided these things.

By the way, I do believe in the eternal Son ship, what has that to do with the claim that Jesus is God?

And I will ask you as I have others, who for some reason they fail to answer, what would be the big deal of God coming to earth and overcoming sin with His power.

Thanks for your comment.

Paul
---paul on 9/14/11




Ignorance is bliss is it Paul?

Your ignorance has led you to many false assumptions.
---David8318 on 9/14/11

What am I ignorant of I told you i was well aware of the history behind the NIV, that does not mean that I agree with it.

And did they not teach you any manners in door knocking 101?

Are you seriously going to make the claim that the JW's don't adhere to the NIV and like translations as their main resources.

David I truly hope you would have your eyes opened to the deceit that abounds in the JW circles and break free of it.

Paul
---paul on 9/14/11


"Worship" Bruce5656

Jesus himself used an illustration that includes a description of a man receiving worship (Gk Proskuneo). Matt 18:23-26 KJV

He wasn't contradicting his statement at Matt 4:10, this simply indicates that 'Proskuneo' carries various shades of meaning, particularly in the first century.

Even the English word 'worship' carries the idea of simple worthiness and honor. See Wycliffe's Translation of Matt 19:19 and John 12:26

"Worschipe thi fadir and thi modir, and...loue thi neiybore as thi silf." Matheu 19:19

"If ony man serue me...and where Y am, there my mynystre schal be. If ony man serue me, my fadir schal worschipe hym." John 12:26
---scott on 9/14/11


Being at the right hand of any one is a subordinate position that of a lieutenant.
In both Greek and Roman culture the son was always subordinate to his father even the commander of a Roman Legion was subordinate to his father. Only the Father know when Christ will return to Earth so they can not be the same entity.
---Blogger9211 on 9/13/11

And this is why the eternal sonship Theory leads those to believe that even prior to the Incarnation of Jesus Christ He was subbordinate to the Father and not teh same entity.

The WORD was with God and was God.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


If Jesus did not believe himself to be God, why would he accept the worship of people?

Jesus said:
It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service. (Matthew 4:10 NWT)

And yet he did not rebuff the worship of his followers:
Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, Rejoice! And they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

cf. Mat 8:2, 28:17, John 3:8
---Bruce5656 on 9/14/11


Donna5535, you have problems with exegesis.

John 10:30 the Father and I are one does not mean sameness means a commonality or unity of purpose most of John Chapter 17 makes that very clear.

When you have seen me you have seen the Father is a metaphorical usage it simply means I represent God the Father not that I am God the Father.

Being at the right hand of any one is a subordinate position that of a lieutenant.
In both Greek and Roman culture the son was always subordinate to his father even the commander of a Roman Legion was subordinate to his father. Only the Father know when Christ will return to Earth so they can not be the same entity.
---Blogger9211 on 9/13/11




Paul,
"When did I say this? "

Do you worship Jesus. If so, on what basis?
---Bruce5656 on 9/12/11

Jesus is my brother and joint heir.

God is my Father of whom I worship.

Paul
---paul on 9/12/11
---Bruce5656 on 9/13/11

Bruce

I did not say I don't see Jesus as worthy of Worship.

I said Jesus is my brother and God is my Father of whom Jesus also declares worthy of worship.

Jesus is worshiped in Heaven, while in His earthly ministry He pointed the focus toward God in Heaven.

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


Scott you write "PROSKUNEO ...make obeisance...reverence...used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ..., (b) to Christ ..., (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26." Vines.

However regarding Revelation 22:8,9 in the NWT we see the Greek 'proskuneo' twice translated as 'worship', which is correct.

Interestingly the 1961 NWT also translated 'proskuneo' as 'worship' in Hebrews 1:6 where is refers to God's command that the angels 'worship' Jesus. However the 1971 version has changed 'worship' to 'obeisance.' And all this done without the underlying Greek Interlinnear changing.
---Warwick on 9/13/11


'Whether man decided for whatever reason to delete these passages is irrelevant to me.' (Paul- 9/13/11)

Ignorance is bliss is it Paul?

Your ignorance has led you to many false assumptions. Your ignorance leads to you to assume NIV 'expels scriptures at will'.

Your ignorance leads you to assume NIV has been 'butchered'.

Your ignorance leads to assume there are 'other predominately JW translations'. This is of course a ridiculous statement.

Do you not realise the original scrolls no longer exist? What is in existence does not contain Mt.17:21, Acts 8:37 or Rom.16:24 in manuscripts earlier than 4th Century. So how can you be sure these verses were in the original scrolls? But that's irrelevant to you.
---David8318 on 9/14/11


//I've never seen you claim to be a minister David.// Trav

claims can be made explicitly by word and/or implicitly by deed.

//Some that claim this title [whether by word or by deed] will be held accountable for their lack of and misuse of the title.//

indeed.
---aka on 9/14/11


Scott,

Evasive again.

According to Scott's theological masters Revelation 5:13 actually means this: Blessing and honour and glory and power be to grandfather God who sits on the throne, and to father god, the Lamb, for ever and ever.

So, everyone, when you read Father in the Scriptures, think Grandfather, and when reading Son, think Father. Got that?!!
---Marc on 9/14/11


Scott, regarding 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 the word 'subject' has nothing to do with His nature or being. It rather concerns His willingness to subject Himslef functionally to the Father in the plan of human redemption.

As Philippians 2:6-8 says "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross!"

---Warwick on 9/14/11


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Paul //his is exactly what I have been saying about Him negating His Godship, at the danger of being ostracized by you all//

it was rather how you said it that's ghot tempers boiling, as you might reread in my first reply to you, i did warn you to rephrase what you said, instead you went on defending twisted words.If only you would have acknowledged from the beginning that you didn't say it properly, most amngst us, would have been understanding, and have helped you in frasing.

I see you esteem the Christ is brother doctrine highly , which is very good, but also prudence is nessecary not to pull it out if its contexts, that in doing so one wouldn't show disrespect to the LORD SAVIOUR as well.
---andy3996 on 9/14/11


Anyone who teaches as pastor in a Christian Church must not only have made a complete study into Christolgy, but also believe in the Eternal Sonship of God by faith, for it is reveal to him by the Father. If any pastor is teaching a different Jesus, that person cannot be a true pastor ordained by God for the Father never revealed it to him. He becomes a self-ordained pastor. Hand picking verses to strip Christ of His Deity, does not ordain him to pastor a Christian Church.
Peter's confession of ( Matt. 16:13-16 ) embraced two things, that Jesus was the Christ, that He was the Son of the living God. By acknowleding the first, he declared his belief that Christ was the promised Messiah, the Annointed One, whom all the prophets had spoken of.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


Part 2: and whose coming at that period of time to the saints such as Simeon, Anna, and many others who were looking for redemption were anxiously expecting (Luke 2:26,36,38). And the Second, Peter acknowledged that Jesus was not only the Christ, the expected long looked for Messiah, but the true, actual and real Son of God. The Jews in the Lords time identified the Christ, the promised Messiah with the Son of God, that was the faith of the Jewish Church.
"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life. But he that refuses to obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him" ( John 3:35,36).
---Mark_V. on 9/14/11


Kathr

Let me start by saying I appreciate your desire to know the truth.

Now as for Jesus being my brother Rom 8:17 will explain we have the same inheritance and the same Father therefore making us brothers.Paul//

Paul, Please don't use PASTOR as a way of making anyone feel you hold the truth here.

So, as the Lamb of God you too will be the Glory of Heaven itself? YOU are going to be the Lamp of it with Jesus?

Sorry Paul, but WE are His Inheritance. He died and rose again and shed His blood to Purchase US.

Heb 9:15m We have the promise of eternal inheritance,...
Heb 1:4, Heirs of salvation, Titus 3:7, Heirs according to the hope of eternal life.Gal 3:29Heirs according to promise Abraham's seed.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11


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Warwick, Christians don't argue or disagree- trinitarians do.
---David8318 on 9/13/11

Applaude the individual asking Christ,searching. Searching with other Bereans, a good thing.
Being under today's teachers, or any puffed up pagans who don't utilize scripture...a danger of it's own.

You do make a case on arguing over the trinitarian subject.
Marriage,Divorce and remarriage of GOD covers this argument. In escence and symbolically.
11.Hosea 2:19
I will betroth thee unto me for ever, yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
Hosea 2:20
I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
---Trav on 9/14/11


"Rev 5:7ff)" Marc

STIIIIIIIIL not Rev 5:7.
---scott on 9/13/11


Kathr

Let me start by saying I appreciate your desire to know the truth.

Now as for Jesus being my brother Rom 8:17 will explain we have the same inheritance and the same Father therefore making us brothers.

My comment about the wind was to show Gods omnipresence as only compared to the wind in matter.John 3

And I am a Christian Pastor not affiliated with any other sect or religion.

And I challenge you to post a scripture where Jesus says he is God, not your interpretation but Christs profession.

And who said Mary was anybodies mother but Christs?

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


"The elders fell down and WORSHIPED." Marc

"The kingdom of heaven [is] likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

Vs 26 "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped (proskyneo) him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all." Matthew 18:23-26 KJV

"PROSKUNEO ...make obeisance...reverence...used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ..., (b) to Christ ..., (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26." Vines
---scott on 9/13/11


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Paul,
"When did I say this? "

Do you worship Jesus. If so, on what basis?
---Bruce5656 on 9/12/11

Jesus is my brother and joint heir.

God is my Father of whom I worship.

Paul
---paul on 9/12/11
---Bruce5656 on 9/13/11


Paul,

Is there a reason why you will not answer my question? (re Hypostatic Union)
---Bruce5656 on 9/13/11


8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty

Fear not, I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen, and have the keys of hell and of death.

No where does it say Jesus laid down His Divinity.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/11


I've never met anyone yet who refers to Jesus as their Brother also believe in teh Deity of Christ.

Paul, this comment along with another about The SPIRITS blow where they may....your use of SpiritS and Not sinngular Holy Spirit, leaves me wondering ...are you Mormon? Just fess up.

You didn't DENY it the last time I suggested you were, based on the SPIRITS comment.

Jesus is LORD Savior, Shepherd, KING God Almighty, and in no way am I as an adopted son equal to Jesus.

Mary is not our Mother eithr.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/11


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this is part of the mystery of Christ that he was God, laid down his divinity and became lower then a servant, and obedient until death.
Philippians 2:7-8.
So Christ is fully God, and fully man.
---andy3996 on 9/13/11

Andy

This is exactly what I have been saying about Him negating His Godship, at the danger of being ostracized by you all.

But their are three, not just one.1John 5:7

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


"You compare Jesus, God's Son by right, with creatures who are sons..." Warwick

Changing the subject so soon?

You repeatedly make blanket statements, and then when challenged, add details not originally there. Your red-herring approach is clear for all to see.

Once again you said (as a matter of fact):

"[Jesus] being the Son of God means He, is of the same substance as God. Therefore God." Warwick

You said nothing about 'right', 'adoption', 'Hebrews', 'the sustainer of the Universe', etc., etc. Just that 'Calling Jesus the Son of God makes him God.'

A silly argument made even sillier by sticking to it.
---scott on 9/13/11


''To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honour and the glory and the might forever and ever.'' And the four living creatures went saying: ''Amen!'' and the elders fell down and WORSHIPED. (New World Translation, Revelation 5:7ff)

Scott: "But, but, but...no, THAT CAN'T really mean what I'm reading...so it doesn't!"

Scott, why do you special plead from all the verses which show you Jesus is to be worshipped??
---Marc on 9/13/11


How can God be Father from eternity if there was no other eternal Being to relate to?

The Watchtower has to have God BECOME Father only when he made the angel Michael (aka Jesus)? This is totally pagan!

The Watchtower's pseudo-solution: ''The second Adam has become a life-giving spirit. In this capacity he can fulfil Isaiah's prophecy and become the 'Eternal Father'. In such a way the heavenly Father of Jesus will become the heavenly GRANDFATHER of the restored human family.'' (Worldwide Security Under the 'Prince of Peace', 1986, p. 169.)

Grandfather? Maybe we can expect a great-great-grandfather God, just like the Mormons, one day?
---Marc on 9/13/11


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It's not only the NIV who omit these verses Paul. If you had done a bit of research you would have realised
---David8318 on 9/13/11

David

Their you go assuming, I did research it and am well aware of the other predominately JW translations which have been butchered.

You did not quote any of the other ones therefore I had no need to post them.

And again the text is accurate in it's over all theme.

Whether man decided for whatever reason to delete these passages is irrelevant to me.

Have you ever held the original scrolls and had the training to translate them, or are you going off of assumptions again?

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


//Can you present a God so weak that He could be tempted to sin and subject to His subjects by allowing them to shamefully kill Him, which HE cant die//
is Christ God? YES 1Cor10:9
is christ a man that could be tempted? YES Hebrews 2:18 Hebrews 4:15
this is part of the mystery of Christ that he was God, laid down his divinity and became lower then a servant, and obedient until death.
Philippians 2:7-8.
So Christ is fully God, and fully man.
---andy3996 on 9/13/11


Scott, I am sure God's word contradicts every failed premise. However I have not failed.

You compare Jesus, God's Son by right, with creatures who are sons by adoption. However Hebrews ch. 1 demonstrates the absolute superiority of Jesus, setting Him above all else as Creator and sustainer of the whole universe! And you give quotes about angels and men!

God commands angels to worship (Greek proskuneo) Jesus-Hebrews 1:6. But you would have us believe Jesus was an angel who became a man who became...

Does 'proskuneo' mean obeisance as JW's say? Let us look at Revelation 22:8,9 in the NWT where John attempts to worship (proskuneo) the angel, who says "do not do that." "Worship (proskuneo) God."
---Warwick on 9/13/11


Here we go again with FALSE TEACHING. Blogger9211, Jesus said, "I and the Father are One." and "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." THEY ARE ONE!!! Jesus said so.

---Donna5535 on 9/13/11

Actually Donna Jesus said He was the SON of God, not God.Matt 16:16

And He also said He and the Father are one just as me and my wife are one Matt 19:5 and Prayed for the Disciples to be one as well John 17:11.

And yes if you have seen Him you have seen the Father John 5:20 John 1:18 for He came to do the Fathers will John 4:34 .

When someone sees you they should see Jesus if you are doing His will they will see Him in you.

Jesus own words concerning their equality.John 14:28 Lu 18:19
---paul on 9/13/11


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MarkV- you have already shown how confused you are with your own trinitarian belief on the 'Can Angels Take Human Form' thread. You make statements in one post and change them in the next. You don't know what you're talking about and what you do is nonsensical.

Of course trinitarians have fought among themselves- they always have done. In both First and Second World Wars, trinitarian Catholics and Protestants were killing eachother in huge numbers and have been at eachothers throats since Henry VIII. Northern Ireland has been a hot-bed of trinitarian Catholic/Protestant sectarian violence and death. You're in denial!

You preach a false Christ MarkV and your 'faith' is founded on the pagans Constantine and Plato.
---David8318 on 9/13/11


"The Holy Spirit and Jesus are NOT subordinate to God. Where does it say that in scirpture?." Donna5535

"Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him [the Son], it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:27, 28 NIV
---scott on 9/13/11


Paul- but you were addressing my claim that God commands expelling the wicked- 1 Cor 5:13. That was the whole point of your retort to my post 9/13/11.

You clearly associated God's command to 'expel' wicked ones with your claim that the NIV expelled verses 'at will'.

'I find it ironic that you talk of expulsion and then reference a book that expels scriptures at will.' (your comments Paul- 9/13/11)

I think you're trying to save face recognising your knowledge of Greek manuscripts is shall we say, deficient. But had you explored the matter further and got your facts straight before criticising NIV, perhaps you would have thought twice before making the wild unsubstantiated accusation of 'expelling scriptures at will'.
---David8318 on 9/13/11


///Jesus is the son of the father a separate deity along with the Holy Spirit. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are subordinate to YHWH. Blogger9211 on 9/13/11///

Here we go again with FALSE TEACHING. Blogger9211, Jesus said, "I and the Father are One." and "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." THEY ARE ONE!!! Jesus said so.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus are NOT subordinate to God. Where does it say that in scirpture?

It is obvious you don't STUDY (versus read) the Word of God.

If you don't repent, you shall perish - this is FALSE TEACHING you are posting. I feel sorry for the newby Christians reading this...it's not true.
---Donna5535 on 9/13/11


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Paul,
And yet you say you do not worship Jesus? The one whom you confess is God in eternity and the creator of all?
---Bruce5656 on 9/13/11

Bruce

When did I say this? I said Jesus is my brother, of whom is Worthy to be praised.

Their was one found worthy to open the book

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


So Paul, NIV, ASV, NWT and other translations do have good reasons not to include Matthew 17:21, Acts 8:37 and Romans 16:24 in the main text or resign them to footnote references.

It's not only the NIV who omit these verses Paul. If you had done a bit of research you would have realised these verses are omitted from the main text of these Bibles due to their not being found in Greek manuscripts earlier than the 4th/5th Centuries.

So contrary to your understanding, translators do not as you claim 'expel scriptures at will'. There is good reason for doing so.

Rather much in the same way and for good reason God commands Christians to 'Expel the wicked man from among you'- 1 Cor.5:13.
---David8318 on 9/13/11


Andy

I appreciate that you dont attack, Thank You

And I am not angry, for anger is held over frustration which I do not have.

And I apologize for offending you.

And I do have a clear view of what scriptures teach.

Can you present a God so weak that He could be tempted to sin and subject to His subjects by allowing them to shamefully kill Him, which HE cant die.

Again, how impressive would it be for GOD to come here and overcome sin?

Jesus is the SON if God, Matt 16:15-16 and always has been1John 4:2 God is a Spirit John 4:24 in Heaven Matt 3:17 and the Holy Spirit was sent as Jesus ascended for our benefit John 16:7. Is that not a clear view?

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


Who else could pay the price for the sins of the world... Think about it people.
---JIM on 9/13/11


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Paul- the reason why NIV, ASV and other translations omit Matthew 17:21, Acts 8:37 and Romans 16:24(altho.footnoted) is because they do not appear in Greek manuscripts older than the 4th/5th Centuries.

---David8318 on 9/13/11

I was not addressing your expelling a brother claim.

I was addressing your usage of the NIV.

If Mark made the same determination in Mr 9:29 that Matt did in Matt 17:21 about prayer and fasting would it not stand to reason that Jesus taught it and the Disciples were giving an eye witness account?

So it is in concert with the theme of the event is it not.


Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


I'm happy to belong to an organisation that follows the Bibles command to "Expel the wicked man from among you."- 1 Cor.5:13 (NIV)
---David8318 on 9/13/11

I'm happy to recognize with your use of the scripture. Ecclesia of Christ/GOD should expel the teachings of those who don't know what they teach.

I've never seen you claim to be a minister David.
Some that claim this title will be held accountable for their lack of and misuse of the title.
To those who strive to scripturally discern.
Psalm 119:104
Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
---Trav on 9/13/11


David, you said,

"The trinity is a force for division, anger, strife and war. Its never brought peace to anyone but has fostered death, misery and caused confusion on an industrial scale."
Yes, trinitarians have died defending the Truth against heretics who have tried since the death of Jesus to strip Him of His glory and honor. Trinitarians did not fight among themselves, they have faith in the the eternal Son of God. And we believe that by faith.
Jehovah Witnesses faith is not founded in the eternal Son of God but is founded in Charles Russell. When an organisation proclaims to be prophets of God, as all of you proclaim, and your prophecies do not happen, you are declared to be false prophets and heretics.
---Mark_V. on 9/13/11


Warwick

If you have received Him you are His son.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Paul
---paul on 9/12/

Sorry but we are ADOPTED SONS, not Begotten Sons, as there is only ONE BEGOTTEN SON.

We have been Begotten AGAIN to a living hope through Jesus Christ. Therefore as Jesus is the life giving Spirit in no way is He or Did He have to rely on the Spirit as do we and walk in the Spirit and not give way to the Flesh. Jesus posessed Body Soul and Spirit. However the Spirit of GRACE was upon Him. The Spirit of the Lord was upon Him to PREACH liberty to the Captives etc.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/11


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stop teaching what obviously is above your head, because as posing yourself as a teacher upon subjects you have noclear sound idea about you offend over and over and make the enemies of Goid to rejoice.

---andy3996 on 9/13/11

Andy

I have considered this statement and I must admit with all due respect, It is a very arrogant statement.

What gives you the rite to claim trump on this?

You are offering up scriptures, as am I, so what determines.

The Cnet community which is also divided.

I have a corroborating witness, Jesus own declaration to be the Son of God.

So please don't tell me what to teach, that is not your position, it is God's.

I didn't get where I am due to man.

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


Paul,
And yet you say you do not worship Jesus? The one whom you confess is God in eternity and the creator of all?
---Bruce5656 on 9/13/11


Paul you said in your first blog that Jesus refuted being God.

am i bigoted? should i be bigoted if i understood what you said?
i use terms that are not made to attack confusing and confused are such.

you are angry with those who offend and then refuse to apologise

don't you think that others might be offended as well, and no i will not let off until you stop teaching what obviously is above your head, because as posing yourself as a teacher upon subjects you have noclear sound idea about you offend over and over and make the enemies of Goid to rejoice.

---andy3996 on 9/13/11


Paul- the reason why NIV, ASV and other translations omit Matthew 17:21, Acts 8:37 and Romans 16:24 (altho.footnoted) is because they do not appear in Greek manuscripts older than the 4th/5th Centuries.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus Gr.manuscript of the 4th Cent. (in the Brit.Museum) omits Matthew 17:21 and Acts 8:37 as does the Chester Beatty No.1 Gr.manuscript of the 3rd Century. The Chester Beatty No.2 Gr.manuscript of the 2nd Century omits Romans 16:24. Many other early Greek manuscripts omit these verses.

However, I fail to see what connection you try to make with God's command to 'Expel the wicked man from among you' (1Cor.5:13) has anything to do with the omission of these later Century verses.
---David8318 on 9/13/11


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"WORSHIPED- Rev 5:7ff" Marc...again

1. (Still) Not Revelation 5:7.

2. If Jesus is God, why in this account (Rev 5:13, 14), is "The Lamb" (Jesus) described as separate from the one on the throne?

Vs 7 "He.. took [the scroll] out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne."

Vs 13 "The One sitting on the throne and the Lamb."

3. The "worship" is not necessarily directed to both God and the lamb.

4. However if it was directed to both, Vine's says:

"PROSKUNEO [worship]...make obeisance...reverence...used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ..., (b) to Christ ..., (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26."
---scott on 9/13/11


I'm happy to belong to an organisation that follows the Bibles command to "Expel the wicked man from among you."- 1 Cor.5:13 (NIV)
---David8318 on 9/13/11

David

I find it ironic that you talk of expulsion and then reference a book that expels scriptures at will.

Look up Matt 17:21 or Acts 8:37 or Rom 16:24 in the NIV.

And alot more, more then the word count will allow just completely expelled.

Talk about expulsion.

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


"The pea and thimbles trick." Warwick (1)

Explain what's 'tricky' about simply posting scriptures without commentary? The fact that God's word contradicts your failed premise is no trick.

You said:

"[Jesus] being the Son of God means He, is of the same substance as God. Therefore God." Warwick

I posted:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." Job 1:6

"...and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38

Continued...
---scott on 9/13/11


Paul as i said from the beginning, you did explain things putting everyone else on a wrong foot about your beliefs, oops mistakes happen, not so bad if you wouldn't have insisted upon your very word that you didn't make mistakes,
---andy3996 on 9/13/11

Andy

This is inaccurate, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, at all.

You ,as most, read my post with bigoted eyes, you so closely related it to the false doctrines of the Jw's that you immediately went in attack mode.

I do believe Jesus is God and the Son of God the Father, I don't think you understand that very well.

It's hard for the carnal mind to interpret, please pray for revelation of it.

Paul
---paul on 9/13/11


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"The pea and thimbles trick." Warwick (2)

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. " Romans 8:14

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

"And [I] will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord..." 2 Corinthians 6:18


Clearly all of these verses contradict your strange argument that 'Jesus is God because he is called Son of God'. And it didn't take a single word of commentary or 'spin' to refute it.

"The word of God is living and active...it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12
---scott on 9/13/11


Paul as i said from the beginning, you did explain things putting everyone else on a wrong foot about your beliefs, oops mistakes happen, not so bad if you wouldn't have insisted upon your very word that you didn't make mistakes, when a brother points out that, you should return and see, refrase what is misunderstood, haven't you corrected me also in words i used wrongly?
now the antichristians are having fun over us, because of stibborness this should not be.
To All Arians
Yes Jesus IS God, Yes he is the SON begotten from the father, YES the Spirit is God. not twogods, neither three, ONE Unique GOD, having three manifestations and three personalities, we know as the father the Son and the Holy Spirit.one name, one God

---andy3996 on 9/13/11


Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, [as Jesus] and there was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through Him might believe. "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shined in the darkness, and the darkness did not understand it.God is light, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.
---Joseph on 9/13/11


Warwick, Christians don't argue or disagree- trinitarians do.

The trinity is a force for division, anger, strife and war. Its never brought peace to anyone but has fostered death, misery and caused confusion on an industrial scale.

I'm happy to belong to an organisation that follows the Bibles command to "Expel the wicked man from among you."- 1 Cor.5:13 (NIV) Jehovah's Witnesses through the Watchtower Society promote Bible truth, and uphold Jehovah's moral standards. Any who decide not to are 'Expelled'. The congregations of JW's are kept clean which is why 100,000's are flooding into Jehovah's organisation every year- predominantly away from your pagan trinitarian organisations.
---David8318 on 9/13/11


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There is only one God and he is YHWH the father and creator. Jesus is the son of the father a separate deity along with the Holy Spirit. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are subordinate to YHWH. YHWH and YHWH alone picked those who would be in his family prior to creation billions upon billions of years ago and they have YHWH as their father and Jesus as their brother has he is the first born son but all of YHWH's adopted children share equally in the royal inheritance of family membership. Jesus paid the price of the Elect to move from their previous Patria Potesta to the Patria Potesta of YHWH. For those who did not make the cut, It's too late now.
---Blogger9211 on 9/13/11


Haven't you noticed socalled Christians who bring up all the supposed contradictions in Scripture?
,
However JW's cannot openly disagree as they are disfellowshipped it they do not toe the WTS party line.

Free people have the freedom to disagree.
---Warwick on 9/12/11

You'll be the only one in your Thirteenth gate of New Jerusalem. Your own gate, your own judge, your own company.

Yes those who are free of your no prophet supported doctrines, disagree with you. Preacher who cannot scripturally defeat those nasty ole contradictions.

Scaring you because you acknowledge only scripture propping your doctrine.
Prov 13:1
A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
---Trav on 9/13/11


Paul, you are correct we are God's sons by adoption. However Jesus is the Son of God, by right. We should never get the two confused.
---Warwick on 9/12/11


Finally an easy question. Is Christ/God continued? Yes. He is alive and well and definitely not dead.
---Rocky on 9/12/11


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//I may be wrong, if you will please re-post those for my benefit.//

Paul, this is something that you need to do on your own. if i pointed out your err, it would only be more fuel for argument.

start from the beginning of the first blog in another's shoes without the need to defend anything. you may see it, you may not.
---aka on 9/12/11


When has God called me His Son, where has He told His angels to worship me, where has any creature been called the "exact representation" of God's being?

---Warwick on 9/12/11



Warwick

If you have received Him you are His son.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Paul
---paul on 9/12/11


Further, Jesus is described by John as being the Creator.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not
---Bruce5656 on 9/12/11

Bruce

You are correct sir, Jesus was with the Father from the foundation of the World.

When the Father declared We will make man in Our image he was speaking to Jesus, I feel.

And Jesus is the Word by whom all things were created.

Thanks for your contribution.

Paul
---paul on 9/12/11


David, you assume all bloggers are genuine. Haven't you noticed the same persons blogging under several names? Why the subterfuge?

Others blog here to undermine Christianity. Haven't you noticed socalled Christians who bring up all the supposed contradictions in Scripture? This nonsense cut and pasted from antiChristian sites!

There are numerous reasons why Christians disagree regarding Scripture however debate between genuine believers is a strength. It shows we are free to debate and to have our thinking changed. However JW's cannot openly disagree as they are disfellowshipped it they do not toe the WTS party line.

Free people have the freedom to disagree.
---Warwick on 9/12/11


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But some might have us believe that He is "a" god, nothing more than a minion "worker god" in a pantheon of "gods"
---James_L on 9/12/11

James

That is not my take,

I believe Jesus was in the beginning with the Father John 1:1 fully functioning as God with the Father.

He laid down His Godship to be impregnated into the virgin Mary to be born flesh.

Walked sinlessly in the flesh as a man Rom 8:3 from God, thus requiring God's assistance as we do. Matt 26:39 Matt 4:11

After suffering death as God could not do,John 17:3 He was glorified to become God in Heaven with the Father again.John 20:17

Again, what kind of big deal would it be for GOD to overcome sin?
---paul on 9/12/11


Scott, again you attempt the pea and thimbles trick.

When God speaks he speaks to us in language, and terms we understand. He talks of 'sunrise' because that is what we see.

We know the son of a man is man, and of the same substance, equal to his father. Therefore God is able to use this same term to describe Jesus as His Son. That any creatures are called sons of God is not relevant as none of us is of the same substance of God, who is spirit.

Unlike Jesus none of us is Creator, Saviour, Redeemer, Alpha and Omega, able to personally forgive sins.

When has God called me His Son, where has He told His angels to worship me, where has any creature been called the "exact representation" of God's being?

---Warwick on 9/12/11


No, Christ is not God. Christ is the 'Anointed One' (Messiah/Christ) of God.

You could always follow JamesL polytheist belief- not only was 'the Word with God' but 'the Word was God'- John 1:1. Two God's in the same verse. This is the cue for trinitarians to recite Neo-Platonic philosophy of metaphysics- 'nature and essence' to show us how Jesus being 'in the nature of God was God'.

As Apostle Paul stated- 'For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth... for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live'- 1 Cor.8:5,6. (NIV)
---David8318 on 9/12/11


I agree with Paul.
If anyone wishes to address anyone, it should be in a civil manner.
If not, how is it you say you speak of God?
Surely, you cant say you know or even understand God.
If you cant do it in love, or is it, you dont see this?

I just dont see the problem with someone believing in God.
Because he doesnt believe as you do.
Did God say, (not in these words) I will give you, as I see fit!

So, if youre blaming someone for not believe or understanding you.
Arent you really not understanding God yourself!
I know you may not want to see it this way. But, you are!
Or dont you even see the smallest things?
---TheSeg on 9/12/11


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Paul,

I started this to respond to your comment about not worshiping Jesus.

Surely, I do not have to point out to you the numerous scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshiped (the wisemen, the disciples, the blind man... even the angels are commanded to worship Him, and, more importantly Jesus receives their worship.

Further, Jesus is described by John as being the Creator.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Are you familiar with Hypostatic Union?
---Bruce5656 on 9/12/11


''And he went and at once took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne...And I saw, and heard a voice of many angels...saying with a loud voice, ''The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and blessing.'' And every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth and on the sea, I heard saying, ''To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honour and the glory and the might forever and ever.'' And the four living creatures went saying: ''Amen!'' and the elders fell down and WORSHIPED. (New World Translation, Revelation 5:7ff)

Wow! Jesus given same honour as God and worshiped too like God!!
---Marc on 9/12/11


Previously Scott references Alan Duthie's 'How to Choose your Bible Wisely', noting that the author included Greber's demonically-inspired (as admitted by The Watchtower) New Testament in an exhaustive list of all modern translations. From this Scott ''reasons'' that is admission of its worthiness. My copy makes no further ''mention'' of Greber's [mis]translation. All it signifies is that Greber attempted a translation.

Yes Scott, do refresh our collective memory about how long Watchtower used Greber's spiritualistic translation for, being fully aware that he had communed with demons. Was it 40 years?
---Marc on 9/12/11


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