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Finish It Here Part Two

Finish it here September 2011-Part 2

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"How can any vital topic be covered if the non JW's have to contend with one hand tied behind their backs?" Warwick

Me thinks that Warwick needs a hug.
---scott on 9/30/11


Trinitarian fascination with Thomas' words continues.

Warwick believes John 20:28 is Thomas' conversion to trinitarianism. Warwick believes John 20:28 marks the point when Thomas, a Jewish worshipper of Jehovah (YHWH), one of Jesus' 12 disciples, after seeing Jesus and being able to touch him suddenly decides to worship Jesus as Jehovah God!? Why would Thomas assume Jesus to be God simply because he could see and touch him?

Who can say for any certainty what Thomas was thinking when he said 'my Lord and my God'? Sure he was speaking to Jesus. But seeing with his own eyes God's power over death through his Lord's resurrection, Thomas' faith in his Lord and in his God was no doubt confirmed moving him to remark- 'my Lord and my God'.
---David8318 on 9/29/11


Andy, you are obviously unable to counter the exposure of trinitarianism as polytheist and originating from pagan Egypt and Babylon. Which is why you and many other trinitarians jump on the band wagon using lies and misinformation to attempt to discredit those who expose the pagan trinity for what it is. What evidence have you got for your wild accusation that Jehovah's Witnesses have anything to do with the UN?

Jehovah's Witnesses view the UN as the 'Scarlet coloured Wild Beast' (Rev.17:3-6), having the 'harlot' controlling it. The 'harlot' representing 'Babylon the Great'- trinitarian Christendom being a major part.

Yes I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and have been for over 25 years. What sect of Christendom do you belong to?
---David8318 on 9/29/11


Warwick, it's your blinkered trinitarian conclusion that Thomas must have meant 'Jesus is the Lord and the God'. Who is making wild, false assumptions now?

Thomas didn't say 'Jesus, you are the Lord and the God'.

Thus Warwick, you are not guided by Holy Spirit but by your own false assumptions dictated to you by your Neo-Platonic, trinitarian indoctrination. Of course, you must tow the trinitarian party line otherwise you will be shunned by your sect. You are unable to consider any other possible conclusion other than a trinitarian bent.

Thomas believed Jehovah (YHWH) was his God. I favour the conclusion Thomas had Jesus and Jehovah in mind when he said, 'my Lord and my God'.

What matters is Jesus' teaching- Jo.20:17.
---David8318 on 9/28/11


"Thomas."

Consider the account in 1 Samuel where Jonathan's words appear to be directed to David.

1Sa 20:10 - "David said to Jonathan, "Who will tell me if your father answers you harshly?"

Vs 11 - "Jonathan said to David, "Come, and let us go out into the field." So both of them went out to the field.

Vs 12 - Then Jonathan said to David, "The LORD, the God of Israel, be witness! When I have sounded out my father about this time tomorrow...if there is good feeling toward David, shall I not then send to you and make it known to you?

--

Apparently Jonathan calls David "God" as well as 'Jehovah'.

What gives?
---scott on 9/28/11




aka i first assumed that david was an JW, of course it would be unjust to Davied and the JW's to confuse them, becausre truth is that unitarians are more divided then the Trinitarians.

i was NOT apologising for what i said, but for my wrong assumptions towards David.
---andy3996 on 9/28/11


"Some scholar..."" Ruben (1)

Some scholar?

The NT of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Reijnier Rooleeuw, The NT in an Improved Version, The NT In Greek and English, Kneeland, A Literal Translation Of The NT, Heinfetter, Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible, Robert Young, The Gospel of History, Totten, Zeitschrift, The NT, (German), Stage, The Coptic Version of the NT, Horner, The NT, (German), Thimme, The Literature Of The NT, New York, Columbia, University Press, The Bible A New Translation, Moffatt, An American Translation, Smith & Goodspeed, The New Testament, German), Pfaefflin, The Authentic NT, Hugh J. Schonfield, The NT of Our Lord and Savior, Tomanec, The NT, William Barclay, Translators New Testament...
---scott on 9/28/11


"Some scholar..."" Ruben (2)

Some scholar? (cont)

The Original NT, Schonfield, Griesbachs NT, (Harvard library), The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, The Final Theology, Ambrose, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of St. John, Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., Robert Harvey, D.D., Professor of NT Language and Literature, Cambridge, The Historic Jesus in the NT, William Temple, Archbishop of York, Readings in St. Johns Gospel, Macmillian & Co., 1933, p. 3, The Gospels, A Translation, Stringfellow, John Crellius, Ernest Barnes, footnote- New American Bible (1986) states: "Was God: lack of a definite article with God in Greek signifies predication rather than identification"...

...etc.
---scott on 9/28/11


now is David a JW or NOT? beause his reasong upoon the HS is eronic according JW teachings (he said in a post that the HS is God)
or did the JW's change their infallible ideas again?
---andy3996 on 9/28/11


David, let us see what Scripture actually says in John 20:

After His resurrection Jesus visited the disciples, showing them His hands and side. vs 19

Thomas said he will not believe this unless He also sees and touches the risen Lord.vs 25

Jesus said to Thomas "Put your finger here, see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." vs 27

In immediate responce to this "Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" vs 28

In responce to this Jesus said "Because you have seen me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas believed what? That he now knows Jesus is the Lord and the God.
---Warwick on 9/28/11




David you make wild assumptions.

Certainly Thomas doubted Jesus had risen from the dead. Being confronted with the physically risen Lord Thomas discards all doubt for the first time acknowledging Jesus is risen and is Lord, and God.

David Scripture does not say Thomas touched Jesus.

You write "Thomas already knew who Jesus was- the Son of God- Jo.20:31." You are confused, this is after the event!

You are confused as you have Scripture before you but reject the guidance of the Holy Spirit and must believe whatever the WTS tells you too. You are not a free agent!

You cannot "taste and see that the Lord is good' without first asking permission.
---Warwick on 9/28/11


Could it be that Thomas said 'my Lord and my God' out of sheer surprise realising Jesus' resurrection? Or maybe his remarks were made because he realised his 'Lords' resurrection proved Jehovah God's power over death, and remarked 'my Lord and my God', to include both his 'Lord' and his 'God' in praise of the wonderful event that had just occurred?

It's the trinitarian blinkered assumption that Thomas only had Jesus in mind when he said 'my Lord and my God'. Could Thomas have had both Jesus and Jehovah in mind when he said 'my Lord and my God'? It's the trinitarian virus to assume there must only be one conclusion to Thomas' remarks.

Whatever the case, the Lord's words are more important- Jo.20:17.
---David8318 on 9/28/11


Warwick is wrong to conclude Thomas took all that time to 'believe' who Jesus was.

Jesus had appeared to some of his disciples prior to his appearance to Thomas- Jo.20:20-23. Thomas said to those disciples who had seen the resurrected Jesus, 'Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe' (vs.25)

The doubt is clearly not Jesus' identity, but whether those initial disciples had seen Jesus. Thomas doubted Jesus had been resurrected. Seeing & touching Jesus, doubt was removed and Jehovah's power over death revealed, Thomas exclaimed- 'my Lord and my God'. Jesus knew Thomas didn't mean he was God.
---David8318 on 9/28/11


David8318:

You said: So yes, Jehovah's Witnesses do reason on the scriptures and conclude the clear fact that trinitarians do preach antichrist, polytheist philosophy- 1 John 4:2,3.

1 John 4:2-3
"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world."

Could you please elaborate on just how trinitarian doctrine is anti-christ according the above? Trinitarians NEVER claim Jesus did not come in the flesh.
---StrongAxe on 9/28/11


"The Logos was with God and the Logos was divine."
James Moffatt, 1935.

"And God of a sort the Word was."
The NT, Ludwig Thimme, 1919.

"The Word was with God and the Word was divine".

..."the plural us (our) probably refers to the divine beings who compose God's heavenly court. (1 Ki. 22:19, Job 1:6)."

---scott on 9/28/11

Anyone can always 'shop around' to find some scholar that will say what you want to hear, is that really proof, most of those are their own personal opinion. Some of those are correct, John is saying the Word is Godlike/Divine.
---Ruben on 9/28/11


Aka, you are the polytheist trinitarian who posted on 9/9/11, '//Jesus is not Jehovah// Correct. Jehovah is Jehovah, Jesus is Jesus, The HS is the HS, and all three are Elohim.' (Finish It Here Blog)

Confirming your polytheist belief, if Jesus is not Jehovah yet 'all three are Elohim', you are clearly preaching an unscriptural polytheist theology.

So yes, Jehovah's Witnesses do reason on the scriptures and conclude the clear fact that trinitarians do preach antichrist, polytheist philosophy- 1 John 4:2,3.

As always aka, you are wrong. JW's do reason but do not concede to the false pagan trinity doctrine. Why would anyone want to abandon the truth for pagan, trinitarian, polytheist theology?
---David8318 on 9/28/11


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Warwick believes Thomas did not know who Jesus was during the whole 3 1/2 years of his association with Jesus as one of the 12 disciples, and it was only until Thomas touched Jesus putting his hand into his side that Thomas suddenly realises Jesus is God!? This Warwickian belief is even more ridiculous.

So when we say 'doubting Thomas', trinitarians believe Thomas didn't doubt Jesus had been resurrected, but that Thomas doubted who Jesus was!? And it required Thomas to touch Jesus for him to be convinced Jesus was God!?

This is absurd! Thomas already knew who Jesus was- the Son of God- Jo.20:31. Thomas doubted and disbelieved Jesus' resurrection. Thomas needed proof of Jesus' resurrection- he got it and began 'believing'.
---David8318 on 9/28/11


//Trinitarians teach polytheism and confusion//

to someone who does not believe in the three Spirits in One Divinity, trinitarianism would naturally seem polytheistic and confusing.

//Lets look at Scripture and reason this together.// ---Mark_Eaton on 9/26/11

JWs are not allowed to reason and concede. if as a JW you do, you will lose your family, and you will not see your kids on the weekend.

andy, what are you apologizing for?

scott , david...If the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal "active force", why does he speak directly and refer to himself as "I" and "me" in Acts 13:2?
---aka on 9/27/11


Scott, NIV, NLT,ESV,NASB, ISV, KJV, AKJV, ASV, Douay-Rheims, Darby, Webster, Weymouth,WEB and Young's disagree with you.

FF Bruce (Tyndale Commentary) considers your interpretation possible, but considers Jesus "God over all" more likely.

Bruce says:

Romans 1:3 supports this view.

As does Colossians 2:9 "in whom dwewlleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Romans says "God's judgement seat," while 2 Corinthians 5:10 calls this Christ's judgement seat!

Paul gives Christ the title Lord because the Father did-Philippians 2:9. 'Lord' as Paul applies Christ is the equivalent of Yahweh.

He also gives more solid references which support Christ as God over all.
---Warwick on 9/28/11


Scott, in John 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus in Greek 'ho Theos'-the God-a name for the one and only God. You and David have said Jesus cannot be God as He is not called ho Theos in the NT. Now here He is called ho Theos and you say it is not God's name!

Interestingly in Psalm 35:23 Yahweh is called "My God and Lord." And "Oh Lord my God."

If Thomas was incorrectly calling Jesus Lord and God then this is blasphemy. Likewise if it was just an excited utterance like the common Americam utterance 'my God' referring to no one in particular, it was using the Lord's name in vain, still considered blasphemy. In either case Jesus would have rebuked Thomas' sin.

He didn't, He affirmed the truth of what Thomas said!
---Warwick on 9/28/11


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"John 1:1 "the Word was God." Warwick (1)

"And (a) God was the word".
The Coptic Version of the NT, George William Horner, 1911. (Sahidic Coptic does include an indefinite article, as opposed to Koine Greek, and it's employed at John 1:1c)

"And the Word was a god".
The New Testament in an Improved Version, 1808.

"The Word was a God".
The New Testament In Greek and English, Abner Kneeland, 1822.

"As a god the Command was".
A Literal Translation Of The New Testament, Herman Heinfetter, 1863.

"And a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word".
Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible, Robert Young
---scott on 9/28/11


"John 1:1" Warwick (2)

"The Logos was with God and the Logos was divine."
James Moffatt, 1935.

"And God of a sort the Word was."
The NT, Ludwig Thimme, 1919.

"The Word was with God and the Word was divine".
An American Translation, Smith & Goodspeed, 1939.

"Word was divine".
The Original NT, Schonfield, 1984.

"Divine" is used in the footnotes for Genesis 18:2-8 and Gen. 1:26 in the New Oxford Annotated Bible, 1977 ed.: "The three angels are "divine beings" and...

..."the plural us (our) probably refers to the divine beings who compose God's heavenly court. (1 Ki. 22:19, Job 1:6)."
---scott on 9/28/11


Trav apparently has never read Harry Potter so cannot be recognized as any kind of authority on the book series.

This is a very common trait in those that are followers of blind guides.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11

Children cannot seperate the difference between what is fiction an what is real.

To establish at a young age that there are special kids or otherwise that can control monstrosity's and evil things through their own power.....or a hero that can, other than GOD...... Well you should be an adult by now, but a child is evident in ya.
Psalm 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
---Trav on 9/28/11


Rev_3:16. It isn't about knowledge and truth, as you said, but faith and works. Anyone reading it can see that.
.... you babble about how knowledge increases truth, increases faith, and increases activity. So what? This has nothing to do with that scripture.
---Rocky on 9/27/11

Thanks Rocky,possible to post again.
It has everything to do with this lukewarm church and me.
I was cold, you're hindoo hairy potter's boy.
You're my work.
Knowledge of truth got me excited after being disgusted with non supported, one sided lies.
I have faith in truth.
My faith and scriptural witnesses address all my own questions.
And your revulsions to the same, with my left hand while I do my worldly job with my right.
---Trav on 9/28/11


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David i apologise for assuming you to be a JW, still truth is trinity RULES lol
---andy3996 on 9/27/11


22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, to birds, fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
---Trav on 9/27/11

that is using scripture appropriately and in context. and that is not allowed here.
---aka on 9/27/11


"If not, then Thomas has taken God's name in vain." Marc

So now God's name is God (Theos)?
---scott on 9/27/11


Scott, the following translations all all disagree with you,rendering John 1:1 "the Word was God."

NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, ISV,God's Word, KJV, AKJV, ASV, Basic English, Douay-Rheims, Darby, ESV, Webster's, Weymouth, WEB, and Young's

Why? Because John 1:1 applies to He who is:
"in very nature God" Philippians 2:6
"God over all" Romans 9:5
"Alpha and Omega....the Almighty" Revelation 1:8
Saviour of the world John 4:42
He who called Himself "God's Son" John 10:36
He who forgives sins and is accused of blasphemy as only God can forgive sins Luke 5:21.

Jesus is surely the God (as per John 20:28) as He shares the attributes, names, and titles of God.
---Warwick on 9/27/11


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Cluny,

You ignored the passage to which I alluded. Immediately before ''My Lord and my God'' comes ''Thomas kai eipen auto''. I believe 'auto' is an [indirect] object (i.e. dative case) of the active verb 'eipen', and must include an explicit preposition when translated to English. We don't say I said him as 'said' is an intransitive verb and must be proceeded by a preposition in English.

Thus, in Greek or English Thomas said ''The Lord of me and the God of me'' TO Jesus. This is inescapable. The only other alternative and perish the idea is that Thomas was taking God's name in vain because he said this TO Jesus.

In any case, who is Thomas' Lord? It's Jesus, so Thomas' remark was clearly directed TO HIM i.e. Jesus.
---Marc on 9/27/11


David, I do not debate you ever imagining I will have any success. You have the WTS virus and can no longer (and are forbidden) to interpret Scripture, other than through the WTS version.

Anyone free to interpret Scripture for themselves can see the truth of John 20:24-30:
That Thomas doubts who Jesus is.
Jesus appears and Thomas gladly accepts he is wrong, calling Jesus "My Lord and My God"-the Lord and the God!
Reacting to this Jesus replies "Because you have seen me you have believed..."
Having seen Jesus, his doubt is replaced by belief, that Jesus is his Lord and his God.

You cannot accept this because it goes against your indoctrination, and you would be disfellowshipped if you did so.
---Warwick on 9/27/11


"John 1:1 where 17 Bible translations I have ALL say exactly the same "the Word was God." Warwick

And there are about 40 translations that do not say "the Word was God".
---scott on 9/27/11


"Romans 9:5" Warwick

"...according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen." RSV, 1971

"... from them [Israelites] came the Messiah (I speak of his human origins). Blessed forever be God who is over all!" NAB, 1970, 1991

"... from them, in natural descent, sprang the Messiah. May God, supreme above all, be blessed forever!" NEB, 1961

"... from them by natural descent came the Messiah. May God, supreme above all, be blessed forever!" REB, 1989

"Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever!" TEV, 1976

Also see The NIV Study Bible Footnote.
---scott on 9/27/11


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//There are a lot of benefits people, Christians and non-believers, can get from reading good literature and Harry Potter is great literature. ---Rocky

Trav apparently has never read Harry Potter so cannot be recognized as any kind of authority on the book series.

This is a very common trait in those that are followers of blind guides.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


There are a lot of benefits people, Christians and non-believers, can get from reading good literature and Harry Potter is great literature. ---Rocky on 9/26/11

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, to birds, fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
---Trav on 9/27/11


David, it is better we begin at John 1:1 where 17 Bible translations I have ALL say exactly the same "the Word was God." Just as Romans 9:5 says "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all..."

Now "God over all.." says "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." He didn't say "I am returning to our Father and our God," showing His relationship with the Divine differs totally to our relationship. His relationship (I and the Father one-before Abraham was I Am) is by eternal right as God the Son while our realtionship is by adoption, His gift.

We the created worship Him the Creator.
---Warwick on 9/27/11


David, John 20:28 "Thomas said to him "My Lord and My God." But you change this to "Thomas, an imperfect man said 'my God' when he 'believed...'

What, Thomas uses the Lords name in vain and Jesus says nothing. This pathetic nonsense is all you can come up with?
---Warwick on 9/27/11


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David8318 * Ruben- first you believe John 1:1 is speaking of 'three divine persons' (9/23/11)

David, here what I said : Christians believe there is only one 'God' but three divine Persons, JW's bible reads "a god"? Wouldn't that mean also two God's?
---Ruben on 9/23/11 ) Never said that JHn 1:1 is talking about three persons! Nice try. Then on 9/26/11 we talk about Jhn 1:1!


David8318 * you claim I don't understand the trinity!!

You don't, Jesus is not God the Father, which you constantly say!
---Ruben on 9/27/11


DAVID for your guys it is extremely simple, whoever does not believe the idiocracys spewed out by your heads is doomed. however a prophet was "according your doctrines" infalliable YOUR own prophets have erred on many occasions. according YOUR doctrines YOUR prophets are false and should not be followed in spite of evidence, your organisation KEEPS LYING AND TWISTING everything they themself prophecied. this can only be WHEN they are under direct order of satan. i give one small example the Jehowah witnesses and the United Nations incident.only one of many, you know this and you lie to defend the antechrist. David with all the love in my heart i say repent and leave this prostitute you call the true worshippers.
---andy3996 on 9/27/11


David8318* Jesus said to Mary at Jo.20:17, 'I am ascending to... my God'. I believe what Jesus said and taught.

Scriptue reads "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God" The Father will always be God the Father to Jesus, so nothing againist the Trinity here.

David8318 * Salvation depends on his teaching- not imperfect men.

Then why is your interpretation correct?

David8318 * Thomas, an imperfect man said 'my God' when he 'believed...' Jesus had been resurrected.

To say that Thomas was directing to God the Father is a desperation . Clearly JW'S are confuse about the Trinity!!!
---Ruben on 9/27/11


Ruben- first you believe John 1:1 is speaking of 'three divine persons' (9/23/11) then 3 days later you change your mind and say John 1:1 is speaking only of 'two divine persons' (9/26/11). And you claim I don't understand the trinity!!

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Since when did you ever understand the trinity?

Marc, it will probably come as a surprise to you to learn that John wrote his gospel in Greek (the koine Greek to be precise). That makes John a 'Greek writer'. 'Ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou' is the only way John could express in Greek what Thomas said at the point he believed Jesus' had been resurrected- 'my Lord and my God'.

It wasn't an identity parade. Thomas doubted Jesus' resurrection.
---David8318 on 9/27/11


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Andy3996, again you are all hot air and no substance. What 'second hand theology' are you referring to?

You say 'a thirdgrader without theological education could unravle' what I've said.

Great!! The truth is meant to be that simple. Not like the incomprehensible dogma of the pagan trinity. As eloquently demonstrated by Ruben, he can't decide how many 'divine persons' are supposed to be in the trinity.

Luke 18:17, Jesus Christ said, 'Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a young child will by no means get into it.'

Bible truth is designed for "3rd graders".
---David8318 on 9/27/11


Is the Son of GOD...GOD? One is Father....one is son. The closest relation. Prince. A Lord. Highest Priest. Purest Sacrifice. A Groom. A marriage. Two joined/One body. One Kindom Unified.

Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken,

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
---Trav on 9/27/11


David. your perception is different, but to use secondhand theology that's as sollid as the Titanic to prove your point doesn't help your case at all. its adding insult upon injury.
Some things you say a thirdgrader without theological education could unravle it, sadly in these days people are religious without knowledge "1 Corinthians 15:34 ...for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
so you might revile yourself, and ghet away with it, calling truth lies and lies truth, just as the Serpent did in the garden. 2 Corinthians 11:3.
the bible is clear that Christ IS GOD and MAN, How we see this is a matter of opinion, but its nesecary for your salvation to accept CHRIST GOD-MAN send by the Father.
---andy3996 on 9/27/11


Warwick, why do you start the order of events from verse 24? You're still having trouble with the words of Jesus Christ at John 20:17. Your difficulty with Jesus' words at John 20:17 is becoming remarkable in your continued avoidance of it.

Shall we start the order of events before verse 24. The issue at John 20 is not who Jesus was, but rather his resurrection. All his disciples to a greater or lesser extent needed proof and reassurance of his resurrection.

Jesus said to Mary at Jo.20:17, 'I am ascending to... my God'. I believe what Jesus said and taught. Salvation depends on his teaching- not imperfect men.

Thomas, an imperfect man said 'my God' when he 'believed...' Jesus had been resurrected.
---David8318 on 9/27/11


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"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed...." Jo.20:29.

'Believed' what Warwick? You think Thomas needed to be convinced Jesus was 'the God'. Don't be ridiculous. That's not the issue at John 20.

Did Thomas doubt who Jesus was? NO! Thomas doubted Jesus' resurrection.

Did Jesus tell Thomas to touch him and put his hand in his side to prove he was 'the God'? No of course not. Jesus did this to convince Thomas not that he was 'God', but that his Father, Jehovah God (YHWH) had resurrected him.

The resurrected Jesus said, 'I am ascending to... my God'- Jo.20:17.

Thomas now 'believing' Jesus had been resurrected remarked, 'my Lord and my God'- Jo.20:28.
---David8318 on 9/27/11


aka, Don't confuse women today who stand up to their abusers as "vice versa".

CN has already lost membership over this issue.
---James on 9/22/11

no confusion.

the statement was: //And all men who verbaly abuse any women is depraved.// and i said, "vice versa" can you deny the truth of that statement? are we given freedom to justify depravity no matter who is the author?
---aka on 9/26/11


NWT Acts 2

As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said : Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them. 3 Then they fasted and prayed and laid their hands upon them and let them go. 4 Accordingly these men, sent out by the holy spirit,...

apparently, an impersonal force like electricity and God's spirit can speak and dispatch other men.
---aka on 9/26/11


David, in John 20:24-29 the order is this:

Thomas lays a challenge-he will not "believe" unless he sees Jesus (nail and spear marks) and touches Him.

Later Vs 27 Jesus accepted the challenge saying to Thomas "Put your finger here, see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

vs. 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Vs.29 "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed...."

Thomas is shown he is wrong and calls Jesus "My Lord and my God." Thomas calls Jesus ho theos-the God, acknowledging he now believes. Jesus accepts being called The God, saying now you believe.
---Warwick on 9/26/11


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Scott, you are a tryer!

In Acts 28:6 when addressed to Paul, who was not God, the Greek for God was correctly rendered, having the Maltese calling him "a god."

In Hebrews 11:3 this same Greek word is rendered "God" because it refers to the Creator God.

It's all about context Scott.

No sleight of hand can change the fact that Colossians 1: 15 on says Jesus, God the Son, is Creator of "All things on heaven and on earth"-the uncreated Creator God of everything.

In John 1:1 Jesus is again portrayed as Creator God, obviously, correctly, called "God."

That you do not even attempt your usual peculiar Biblical 3 thimble trick shows you have no Biblical answer.
---Warwick on 9/26/11


\\Thomas said 'The God of me' TO Jesus.\\

There is no preposition here in the Greek, Mark. It's simple genitive (possessive) case.

Literally, "My Lord and my God."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/11


David,

Thomas said 'The God of me' TO Jesus. That one preposition makes a big difference because it's about Jesus. If not, then Thomas has taken God's name in vain.

It was John who wrote John's Gospel, not a ''Greek writer''. You may recall he was there!

You and Scott are the masters of special pleading i.e. when we give you actual verses from the Bible which clearly demonstrate Jesus' being God, you say, "Ohhh, but but but, it doesn't really mean that.''
---Marc on 9/26/11


"This is a translation of the same Greek 'theos' but is rendered as "God's" not "a god's" because God is Creator!". Warwick

Warwick is giving Lewis Carroll a run for his money!

"Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe,
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe".

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!"

--

The difference is that Carroll knew that his words (above) were nonsensical.
---scott on 9/26/11


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Furthermore Warwick, Thomas didn't call Jesus 'The God' as you believe. Thomas exclaimed 'my God' when he realised Jesus had been resurrected.

You hide behind the word for word Greek rendering of what Thomas (likely a Hebrew speaker) actually said. This is only how the Greek writer expressed what Thomas said- 'Ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou' [My Lord and my God].

Please show me any translator who renders 'Ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou' (Jo.20:28) as Thomas saying Jesus is 'The God' or 'the God of me' as you assert! Otherwise this is a trinitarian straw-man argument.

Warwick, you pay more attention to what the imperfect man Thomas said and nothing to what Jesus Christ said- 'I am ascending... to my God' (Jo.20:17).
---David8318 on 9/26/11


"Phil 2:6 - Harpagmos Bruce5656 (1)

"We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [harpagmos] has the sense of `holding in possession,' `retaining'. It seems invariably to mean `seize', `snatch violently'. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense into one which is totally different, `hold fast.' " The Expositor's Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437.

NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, says that harpagmos is "akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force." An Expository Dictionary of NT Words, p. 887.

"...harpagmos...a thing plundered or seized...a prize of war." The New International Dictionary of NT Theology, p. 604, vol. 3, 1986.
---scott on 9/26/11


People have difficulty in accepting Jesus to be God, because they cannot comprehend the Almighty putting on flesh and living on earth as a man, which being he has made after his own shape. And also man is known to have sinned against God, and therefore was cast out of his garden of Eden. But since the beginning it has been recorded that there are the righteous and there are the sinners, and not all mankind are sinners and neither are all mankind righteous. They cannot comprehend perfect and holy God being concentrated into the form of the man, Christ Jesus. Even though he proved his deity in the flesh by doing miracles which only the Almighty can do, even by raising himself up from the dead after he was killed, exactly as he said he would do.
---Eloy on 9/26/11


It is very clear that trinitarianism promotes polytheism in its rendering of John 1:1. Trinitarians here- Ruben, Jed and Warwick- promote the pagan trinity view in their distorted understanding of John 1:1. They have 'the God' with whom 'the Word was with' AND also 'the Word was God'. Two 'Gods' = polytheism.

In trying to defend his polytheist belief, Ruben is confused and can't quite remember whether he believes there are 'three divine persons' (9/23/11) or 'two divine persons' (9/26/11) at John 1:1. As worship of 'trinity' was found in ancient Babylonia, it is no wonder those worshipping 'trinity' today will 'babel' incoherently- Rev.18:1-4.

The correct rendering of John 1:1 is, 'the Word was with God, and the Word was a god'.
---David8318 on 9/26/11


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David8318* First Ruben says on 9/23/11 (Jesus Always God' blog) 'Christians believe there is only one 'God' but three divine Persons.

Yes, Father,Son and the Holy Spirit!

David8318* But only 3 days later (9/26/11), Ruben has a complete change of mind and wants us to believe, 'It is one God but two divine person'.

David knows quite well we were talking about Jhn 1:1

David8318* I put it to you Ruben that you do not know what you're talking about, and you do not understand John 1:1.

You are studying from a JW'S view point that does not understand the Trinity. Ex: You claim that we believe Jesus is the God the Father.

False and dangerous!
---Ruben on 9/26/11


Trinitarians teach polytheism and confusion
---David8318 on 9/26/11

Lets look at Scripture and reason this together.

Is 45:23 "And will not turn back, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue will swear allegiance"

Rom 14:11 "For it is written, AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD"

Phil 2:10-11 "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"

Jesus is being spoken of in every verse.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/26/11


"Phil 2:6 - Harpagmos Bruce5656 (2)

Since harpagmos is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, it helps to examine the LXX (Septuagint).

In the LXX harpagmos (harpagma, harpagmata) is used 16 times according to Zondervan's A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979.

In every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. In the Bagster Septuagint (Zondervan) we find:

Lev. 6:4 "plunder," Job 29:17 "spoil", Is. 42:22 "prey," Is. 61:8 "robberies,". See also Ezek. 18:7, 12, 16, 18, 19:3, 6, 22:25, 27, 29, 33:15 and Malachi 1:13.
---scott on 9/26/11


David, as you know, a correct translation takes account of context. Contexturally they knew it was appropriate to write "a god" referring to Paul in Acts 28:6. Likewise "gods" in Acts 14:11.

However in Hebrews 11:3 we read "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command...." This is a translation of the same Greek 'theos' but is rendered as "God's" not "a god's" because God is Creator!

Colossians 1:14-17 shows Jesus is, among othere things, Creator and Saviour, uncreated Creator of everything. Therefore as in Hebrews 11:3 it is correct to render 'theos' as "God" in Acts 28:6, as it refers to Jesus,who is God the Son, Creator and Saviour.
---Warwick on 9/26/11


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David, if we were in 1961 we would note the NWT version of Hebrews 1:6 says we should 'worship" Jesus-Greek 'proskuneo.' And you would have told me this WTS translation, was correct.

But then if we were in 1971 we would see the NWT now translates the same Greek 'proskuneo' as "do obeisance." A complete turn around.

One of these versions is wrong, isn' it? The WTS was wrong in 1961 wasn't it?

The WTS (Jehovah's witness on earth) consided Innoculations and organ transplants (supposedly cannibalism) contrary to God's word. But later reversed their decision.

Question: as the WTS changes its mind on such important matters how can we trust it on anything?

Answers please!
---Warwick on 9/26/11


Talk about confusion in the trinitarian ranks- listen to Ruben!!

First Ruben says on 9/23/11 (Jesus Always God' blog) 'Christians believe there is only one 'God' but three divine Persons.' Three divine persons Ruben wants us to believe.

But only 3 days later (9/26/11), Ruben has a complete change of mind and wants us to believe, 'It is one God but two divine person'.

So is it 'two' or 'three' divine persons Ruben!? Or are you making up your belief as you go along? I put it to you Ruben that you do not know what you're talking about, and you do not understand John 1:1. You are not guided by HS and preach what is false & dangerous!

Trinitarians teach polytheism and confusion in their rendering of John 1:1.
---David8318 on 9/26/11


I agree Warwick- it would've been blasphemy to call Paul 'God'. That's the whole point of my use of Acts 28:6. Greek grammar and context demand translators use 'a' at Acts 28:6 (which isn't in the Greek text) to ensure the meaning reads Paul 'to be a god'. For the same reasons 'a' is used at Acts 28:6, translators use 'a' at John 1:1 to read 'the Word was a god' so that it doesn't conform to polytheism, pagan trinitarian philosophy and blasphemy.

The only reason why you don't follow the same rule of Greek grammar and context at John 1:1 as you do at Acts 28:6 is because you and your trinitarian translators apply Hellenic, Neo-Platonic philosophy to Jesus Christ, demanding 'Jesus is God' to propagate the pagan trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 9/26/11


Scott,
Re Phil 2:6
harpagmos also means "a thing to be seized upon or to be held fast, retained
---Bruce5656 on 9/26/11


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David8318 Ruben, You say trinitarians worship 'one God', but what trinitarians teach is totally different.

No, what JW's claim what trinatarians teach is misleading!

David8318* Christians don't believe 'there is only one 'God' but three divine Persons' as you claim.

JW's misunderstanding of the Trinity is where the problem is?

David8318* John 1:1 as only 2 persons are referred to, God and the Word. But you believe not only is the Word 'with God', but also 'the Word was God'. Not just 2 divine persons but 2 God's!

Here is where you ran into a problem! It is one God but two divine person, God the Father and God the Son, we never say that Jesus is God the Father but you claim that we do, prove it?David8318
---Ruben on 9/26/11


David, Acts 28:6 correctly rendered it "a god." The Maltese did not imagine God stood before them! Acts 14:11-15 shows Paul thought the very idea blasphemy.

Conversely Jesus is comfortable when Thomas calls Him ho Theos-The God, John 20:28!

Therefore John 1:1 is correctly rendered "God" because of whom it is directed to. This same Jesus refers to God the Father as "My Father" equating Himself with God-John 5:18. And saying I give them eternal life (10:27). And saying that He (who is in very nature God-Philippians 2:6) and the Father are one. His hearers called all this blasphemy, as they knew He was claiming to be God vs. 33.

What madman would claim this if not true?
---Warwick on 9/26/11


Jed- that's a fine array of trinitarian Bible's you provide in support of the polytheist rendering of John 1:1.

Does it come a news to you that the indefinite article 'a' is not found in Greek? Do you not realise English translators must insert the word 'a' when context and Greek grammar demand it?

At John 1:1, the singular predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus, 'theos' describes what 'logos' is, it doesn't identify 'logos' as the 'God' with whom it is with. There are many non-trinitarian translators who conform to the grammar and context of Jo.1:1 and include the indef.article 'a' so that it reads- 'and the Word was a god'. Thus avoiding a polytheist rendering of John 1:1.

Same applies at Acts 28:6.
---David8318 on 9/24/11


Ruben, your post direct to me on the 'Jesus Always God' thread. You say trinitarians worship 'one God' may sound reassuring to you, but what trinitarians teach is totally different.

Christians don't believe 'there is only one 'God' but three divine Persons' as you claim. This teaching is certainly not found at John 1:1 as only 2 persons are referred to, God and the Word. But you believe not only is the Word 'with God', but also 'the Word was God'. Not just 2 divine persons but 2 God's!

Polytheist rendering of John 1:1 reads, 'the Word was with God and the Word was God'. Two 'God's' here.

A non-polytheist rendering, 'the Word was with God, and the Word was a god'. Only one God here.
---David8318 on 9/24/11


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Ruben, you ask how do I know what I have interpreted in the Bible is true? Let me tell you Ruben. One reason is that I study Scripture. I make every effort to find the Truth. My motive is not any denomination. I believe when your heart is for the glory of Christ the Spirit will do everything possible for you to know the real Truth. But your heart has to be on the right purpose. God has provided me with every possible means to interpret. Studied hermenuical books. Plus Christ is my passion, not a Church, preacher, or denomination. You speak for the RCC, not for Christ. SDA's speak for their Saturday Sabbath. Jehovah Witnesses speak for their denomination. So do Mormons. Heretics speak for their heretical views. Their agenda is not the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/11


Ruben, you are incorrect in that what they taught from the 1st. century is been taught today. The Church started out good. Early church fathers did not worship Mary. Ruben you are so nieve on what has happened through the centuries. The abuses of the popes, bishops, and the Church as a whole is recorded in history. you just don't know or don't realize what you say.
---Mark_V. on 9/23/11


Mark_V.* Ruben, you must enjoy comments against the RCC to be posted. Because you always justify .

That's because the early christians from the 1st century to the 15th century taught everything that the Catholic Church teaches, why? because it the Church that Jesus said he will built his church on the Rock of Peter!

Mark_V.* Paul was bringing salvation to the people by the Gospel of Christ so you use one word to justify your argument.

So did you, why is it I can't?

Mark_V.*I will continue to respond to you with more evidence if you insist.

For the 100th time, please respond to my question:

Why is your interpretation of scripture correct over mine?
---Ruben on 9/23/11


AKAJOSEPH?

aka joseph
---aka on 9/23/11


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Ruben, you must enjoy comments against the RCC to be posted. Because you always justify all wrongs the RCC does and has done through the centuries. I know you are from Texas, a latino I'm sure as me. And that you have gone to Shrines in Texas as I have. Yet you deny the worship of saints and Mary. Paul was bringing salvation to the people by the Gospel of Christ so you use one word to justify your argument. Well, this is your soul, not mine. You are so deep in idolatry that you cannot see the light. I will continue to respond to you with more evidence if you insist.
---Mark_V. on 9/23/11


ELENA, I had an eye appointment on Monday, after Irene turned off the electricity where I was. The appointment person said I still had my appointment. No traffic lights were on. I was wondering if she knew what she was talking about, but instead of getting ready to be angry at her for having me ride out there for nothing, I prayed not to be angry, and appreciated having fresh air and a beautiful day riding my bike, even if they were closed (c: And, the lights were on, and he said my eyes are fine. (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 9/23/11


//it will never be finished//

John 19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
---aka on 9/22/11
AKAJOSEPH?
---francis on 9/22/11


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