ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Do You Bear Truth

Jesus told Pontius Pilot, "I was born for one purpose, to bear witness to the truth." Are you bearing witness to the truth? and how can you be so sure you are? (just curious as to HOW you would know you are?)

Join Our Christian Penpals and Take The Evangelism Bible Quiz
 ---Donna5535 on 9/22/11
     Helpful Blog Vote (5)

Post a New Blog



Mark V: I'm afraid your understanding of the beleifs of the orthodox church is quite limited!

Sorry to bother you, but you should read up before commenting!
---James on 10/4/11


\\And if they sin when they die and do not repent to the priest, they go to purgatory. Where they remain until someone prays for them or pays indulgences.\\

I'm not a Roman Catholic, but are you aware that indulgences cannot be bought or paid for?

So here is just one more thing about the Roman Catholic church that you believe wrongly.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/4/11


While anyone that has any intelligence and honestly searches the Scripture, the Roman Church and the Eastern Churches believe that the Bible is the property of their church and that the laity should not attempt to understand it apart from their authority.

This view was contested during the Reformation when the Roman Church did all they could to keep the Bible out of the hands of the laity.
---lee1538 on 10/4/11


Ignatius, lets look at what the RCC teach, and maybe your denomination also. Out of their own decision, they can be saved if they choose to be baptized. Out of their own work, if they eat Christ every Sunday they are saved. Out of their own works if they follow the catechisms they are saved. And when they sin against God, the priest can forgive them.
And if they sin when they die and do not repent to the priest, they go to purgatory. Where they remain until someone prays for them or pays indulgences. So far all is of works of man. The death of Christ on the Cross is not sufficient to save any of you. It needs your works in order for His death to save you. In your believes, a person is not saved by grace through faith, but by your own works.
---Mark_V. on 10/4/11


"they....teach salvation by works" (Mark V)

Never met anyone that taught that.

However, some believe you are saved by saying a prayer, confessing your sins and proclaiming Christ as your "personal" Lord (a work).

"Also, you assume that all RCC and Orthodox DO beleive in salvation by works - those I've met don't
---Peter on 10/3/11"

You have to excuse Mark V. He is prejudiced agaist other Christians. In fact, he doesn't believe Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic Orthodoxy, Assyrian Church of the East, are part of the Body of Christ. We all damn to hell (unless we repent, she says) in her book.

Pray for her.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/4/11




\\All of the RCC, and Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Islam, and many of those evangelicals who have gone back to their roots they came from who teach salvation by works.\\

I've never met any Orthodox or Roman Catholics who believe in salvation by works.

However, I've met people on here who think you can be saved by saying the un-Biblical "sinner's prayer"--which is itself a work.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/11


Peter where in Matthew 25 does it say that in order to be saved you have to do works? I do not find anywhere where it says what you said. It does speak of sheep and goats. The sheep are those who do good works, the goats are those that don't do good works. That is the evidence of their salvation, for they were chosen from the foundation of the world unto good works. Only the sheep, the saved, the elect. I believe you got your theology confused Peter.
---Mark_V. on 10/3/11


//Salvation by works is not what we beleive - BUT remember Jesus' parable in Matt 25 (the sheep and the goats).

The sheep & goats in Matthew 25 are a mere depiction of those who truly believe in Christ and those who only profess to believe.

Eph. 2:10 merely tells us that "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them".

And -

those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. Titus 3:8
---lee1538 on 10/3/11


Salvation by works is not what we beleive - BUT remember Jesus' parable in Matt 25 (the sheep and the goats).

That is a direct statement of salvation by works.

Also, you assume that all RCC and Orthodox DO beleive in salvation by works - those I've met don't
---Peter on 10/3/11


Peter, the facts are the facts. The gate to eternal life is the narrow way. Now count how many people believe in salvation by works. All of the RCC, and Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Islam, and many of those evangelicals who have gone back to their roots they came from who teach salvation by works. Out of all who call themselves Christians, that would be the wide gate. For there is very few who will enter the narrow gate. Those who believe the sacrific of Christ is sufficient to save anyone. It does not need the works of man. For we are saved by Grace through faith, not by our own works. And that goes for anyone from which ever denomination he is from. Is that a good enough answer?
---Mark_V. on 10/3/11




Mark V: 'many are turning to RCC and Orthodoxy doctrines. But not the Elect.'

Mark, you take in the reverse, not the way you write it! What you mean is 'if someone turns to the RCC or Orthodox, he/she IS NOT the elect'

But you provide no reason for that opinion. You take that as an initial doctrine.

I am neither of the two, but could you explain WHY you take that view?
---peter on 10/3/11


Igantius, you are right on one thing, many are turning to RCC and Orthodoxy doctrines. But not the Elect. They cannot be deceived. For many are teaching the principles of works with their conception of "free will" in which people earn their way into the Kingdom of God. I know many who are not Catholic who teach the same principles they taught and still teach to this day. The very reason the reformers fought against. Christ death was never sufficient to those at that Church, it always needed the help of sinful man to be save. So you are right, there is many denominations teaching works. But guess what, no one can earn his way into God's Kingdom.
---Mark_V. on 10/3/11


"History of the RCC is written already....Documentary movies are made of those who molested children" (Mark V)

The same can be said for Protestantism. In fact, a recent survey suggest that molestation of Children is more high in Protestant churches and the cover ups are high. Does this make any less wrong? No. Does this excuse the RCC? No. Should clergy members be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law? Yes. Should clergy members be punished by their Church hierarchy? Yes.

"And everyone turn an eye to what they did"

I don't.

" many died fighting for the Truth. "

Today, many Protestants are finding the Truth, and coming home to Orthodoxy.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/2/11


Ignatius, I do not wish to spend my time arguing with your rediculous false statements about what you say I defend. History of the RCC is written already. You can buy the information anywhere. Documentary movies are made of those who molested children and were hidden by the Vatican to do the same abuse in other churches over and over again for years. In which they have spend millions for some of the atrocities on children. And everyone turn an eye to what they did. Sure there is abuse everywhere else, because all sin, but the actions of the Church was completely wrong again. Their power at one time was all over the world, and nations, but people woke up and fought back and many died fighting for the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/11


Cluny:

You said: Because if you're wrong about the Persons of the Holy Trinity, you're wrong about everything else.

That does not follow logically. Jesus preached correct actions (i.e. love your neighbor) but did not stress theology. When he separates righteous from wicked as sheep from goats, he does so based on actions, not beliefs. There have always been holy people who have loved God and their fellow men, yet been illiterate and uneducated, and often without accurate and articulate theological positions.

But regardless of this, is there any action that you would take if filoquism is true that you would not if it were false, or vice versa? If not, then the question is purely academic.
---StrongAxe on 10/1/11


Mark and Cluny (and any catholic here, to all all three sections):

It is NOT our job to accuse here. Some 'atrocities' were carried out by the catholics, some by the orthodox (I assume, at least in Russia at some point) and some by the protestants.

Our job is to ask forgiveness for them (at least those who were from the same section of the church as ourselves)
---Peter on 10/2/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Counseling


Mark V

"they opposed each other"

I am no trained Historian. I got that statement straight from Protestant Historians. You go argue with them, not me. I am only related what I personally read in historical books on the matter.

You first mention what the RCC atrocities (and then said "what rights did these men had?"), and then you praise the Reformers, as if they spoke the Truth in it's entirely. I simply stated (with sources) that they were just as corrupted and had their own version of what the Truth was.

If you going to attack the RCC for their acts in the past (and rightly so), then you should also point out the evil acts of your Protestant Reformers.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/1/11


Ignatius, I don't know what Zwingli did in his life, and not defending his actions for all come short of the glory of God. I was defending Scripture, and your false statements they opposed each other and what you said I defended.
As I said before, they were not in union with every single point, for no one is. You can never come close to the millions Catholic Killed, millions of Jews persecuted, and you speak of Medival times, how about today, in the past century, do I have to bring those up? I only answer you when you come out with your rediculous claims against others, otherwise I don't like to answer Catholic questions. I know to much already about them.
---Mark_V. on 9/30/11


\\Regardless of whether filoquism is true or false, why is it important at all?\\

Because if you're wrong about the Persons of the Holy Trinity, you're wrong about everything else.

Jesus Christ Himself said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. That is sufficient, or should be.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 9/30/11


Cluny:

Regardless of whether filoquism is true or false, why is it important at all? In what way does it affect anything anyone does, except for those who argue about it? If it does, what does it affect? If it does not, it is as irrelevant as arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
---StrongAxe on 9/30/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Relief


Filioquism is the false doctrine.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/11

This is from :

Ware, Timothy (AKA Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia) (1997). The Orthodox Church. Penguin Books: London, England

There are , however, some Orthodox who consider that the Filioque is not in itself heretical, and is indeed admissible as a theological opinion not a dogma provided that it is properly explained. (pg. 51)

There is today a school of Orthodox theologians who believe that the divergence between east and west over the Filioque, while by no means unimportant, is not as fundamental as others maintain. (pg. 218)

And as already know, several Eastern Fathers agree with the West!
---Ruben on 9/30/11


Ignatius, thank you for your response and being respectful in doing so. Alas, I could respond to your questions and feel that they are satisfactory, but would you believe? When I learned apologetics, one thing I learned is that if somebody doesnt have a genuine question then it is simply an argument to gain ground and not a quest to be open for a new position or perspective. I have no genuine/seeking questions for you in regards to the cannon or early church that would change my stand and I am sure the feeling is mutual, so I dont want to just start wasting words or slinging mud. The dialog on this thread has been a great reminder to me of how much we need His grace every moment, every thought.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 9/30/11


\\. I thought you belonged to it. But as I see, you don't.\\

You don't actually think that YOU do, do you?
\\"And both are infected with filioquism." Infected, what in hell are you talking about? You only hit a nerve when you lie\\

Filioquism is the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (Filioque), rather than the Father alone, as Jesus taught.

It's in the official confessions of faith of most Protestant Churches, including the Assemblies of God.

So just how did I lie?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/11


Poppa Bear:

1) You accept 27 books in the NT because men in the Early Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, told us that. That's a doctrine outside of Scriptures that is Truth. Do you believe the the Gospels was written by the authors assigned to them? Another doctrine outside of Scriptures.

2). Christ or the Apostles did not quote or alluded to Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or Obadiah. Should we reject these books too?

3) The Ancient African Jews (now living in Beta Israel of Ethiopia) accept the Deutercanonicals as Scriptures, as do most Christians outside the Roman Catholic Church (Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, etc).

4)The Original 1611 KJV had these books in the Bible.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/29/11


Send a Free Marriage Tract


"speaking for the body of Christ."---Mark_V.

You don't speak for the Body of Christ. You really think you do?

What excuses? I don't agree with what the RCC did in the Medieval Period, but when I bought the evils of the Protestant Reformers to light, you attack me. Why? Why do you defend these men and all their crimes?

What stories? None that I have written is a fairy tale. I got everything that I have written about the Protestant Reformers from Protestant sources.

"or to profess you have the one and only Church who has all the Truth. "

You profess to have all the Truth (and speak for the Body Christ, like the Roman Pope) and that your interpretations are correct.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 9/30/11


Mark V,

You can't hide the Truth. The bitterness/persecutions of your Reformers are written in the pages of History for all to see. The Protestant Reformers and Protestants took within their power to kill, behead, burned, or excommunicate people they disagreed with too. They were just as corrupted as the RCC. People can Google the history of your founding Popes. People can buy books (such as The Reformation and Christianity: The First Three Thousands Years by Diarmaid Macculloch) and see the corruptions.

It is written in history that the Reformer Zwingli, in 1525, persecuted Anabaptist and even drowned four of them in the River Limmat.

I can on and on, but you defend their acts of violence.

In IC.XC.,
----ignatius on 9/30/11


Ignatius, again you lie. I have never defended any atrocities of anyone or any denomination. I always speak to you and Cluy from the body of Christ. I thought you belonged to it. But as I see, you don't. You compromise the Truth to defend your denomination and the RCC's. Just as SDA's defend their denomination and all other denominations. The RCC sents Catholics to their website, to know how excuse their worship of saints and Mary after they claim they do not worship them. Then you bring out
"And both are infected with filioquism." Infected, what in hell are you talking about? You only hit a nerve when you lie. Because I alway thought you were born of the Spirit. If you were you would not be compromising the Truth for a lie.
---Mark_V. on 9/30/11


//I hope you repent from your sins before it is too late. You are a liar and a hypocrite. Just like the Pharisees. There is no difference. One day you will get saved, I pray for that.

And then you will find out what it is to kiss icons!

The reason the Eastern Church was not as corrupted as the Western church is because they had too many problems with the Islamic movement.
---lee1538 on 9/30/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Settlement


Mark V-

Each of the Reformer in the 14-16th centuries developed their own version of Protestantism. They all rebel against the Roman Pope, and believe he was a heretic, but they each developed in his own belief system. The Reformers and their churches held councils and excommunicated people. They also executed people for their contrary beliefs (like John Calvin did to Michael Servetus and that's a historical fact). They were just as corrupted as the RCC, yet you defend their actions. Why? You are a hypocrite.

I hope you repent from your sins before it is too late. You are a liar and a hypocrite. Just like the Pharisees. There is no difference. One day you will get saved, I pray for that.

In IC.XC..
---IGnatius on 9/29/11


Mark V,

You are not fooling anyone. You mention the corruptions of the RCC during the Medieval period. I am only one that have mention the corruption of the Protestant Reformers You praise them. I do not. You defend their atrocities.

Why haven't you agree with me about your Protestant Popes excommunicated people? Burning people? Killing people? Why do you defend them?

"Igantius, you lie about reformers when you say they called each other names."

I do not. I got that straight from Historian Diarmaid Macculloch in his book "Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years" and renowned Protestant scholar Philip Schaff in his "History of the Early Christian Church".

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/29/11


\\I'm in bondage to Christ, a slave to Christ, ...\\

The REAL Jesus Christ said that the truth shall make you free.
'
The REAL Jesus Christ said, "I no longer call you slaves but friends."

Would you like me to introduce you to HIm?

Glory to the REAL Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/11


Ignatius, this is the second part of my post. I didnt see any answer to my post from a day or two ago, but it is somewhat contained in the first part of this post. To summarize here as well, Outside of the 66 books, 39-OT, 27-NT. Do you see any other truths necessary to obtain salvation and instruction for Holy living-dying outside of the words of our Lord or Apostles? I dont include the apocrypha as inspired because it was not quoted by Jesus or any NT writers and it was not included in the Hebrew cannon or in the Palestine cannon that Jesus wouldve used in the temples among other historical evidences examining its place in Holy Scripture.
---Poppa_Bear on 9/29/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Distance Learning


Strongaxe I believe you make a good point here. Never the less, will we trust ourselves to the Bible we do have, that has sustained millions over the last 2-millenniums as the inspired word of God or will we venture to hope that there are other writings that should be placed on the level with the only book which can testify to its own authority aside from men by the singular endurance it has shown and miraculous hope and life it has given to millions throughout plagues/famine/war/persecution/depressions/disasters and so much more.
Glad to see when we start really thinking and talking respectfully and not just belittling and criticizing. My words/arguments/points/ways are not perfect, He is, thankfully.
In Love
---Poppa_Bear on 9/29/11


Ignatius, you give the same stories and excuses Catholics give. Every excuse possible. You are not fooling anyone, maybe yourselves. Every time you answer is for questions concerning the RCC, or to profess you have the one and only Church who has all the Truth. To the point of even saying They gave us the Truth. And if it was not for them, all humans would be in darkness. Stop the excuses, for once speak for the Truth. Maybe this way people can say, "here is Ignatius finally speaking for the Truth and not his denominational traditions. Then you will speaking for the body of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/11


"Ignatius, I knew you were not speaking for the body of Christ." (Mark V)

And you are? Self-proclaimed leader I see. Just like the Roman Pope.

"You were singling out others."

Because you are doing the same. Did I hit a nerve?

"I don't defend a denomination, I defend the Truth of the gospel."

You defend your own version of the Truth and your personal interpretations of Scriptures. Martin Luther did the same thing. So did John Calvin, and all the Reformers of the 14-16th centuries.

". But you defend every tradition they believe."

That's a lie. If we did, we will become Catholics ("head shaking" at the insanity).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/29/11


"When you repent and join the body of Christ, and speak for the Truth of the gospel and stop worshipping saints and Mary -Mark_V. on 9/29/11"

There you go again. We Orthodox don't worship Mary or the Saints (and I can give you a great book about Orthodoxy written by a Protestant that defended us). Of course, in your own Protestant world, we Orthodox do.

You can believe what you want on this matter, but I know I, Cluny, and the rest of the Orthodox world do NOT worshiped the Theotokos or the Saints, and if one did, they cease being Orthodox.

You can continue to slander us all you want, because you are blessing us by doing so.

The Truth does not matter to a Anti-Catholic/Orthodox bigot.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 9/29/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Education


Igantius, you lie about reformers when you say they called each other names. If anything they were more in one accord and many died for the Truth. Alos many scholars as John Wycliffe, william Tyndale, Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, Ulrich Zwigli, Robert Barnes, Niclolas Ridley, Hugh Latimer, Joseph Mede, Si Isaac Newton, John Wesley, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, James Aitken Wylie, John Foxe, Mattew Henry, John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, and so many more. They might not have seen eye to eye in every single doctrine, but all were against the papacy as a clolossal institution whose doctrines deny the New Testament message of free salvation by grace through simple faith in the Crucified and Risen One, apart from works.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/11


Poppa_Bear:

I was pointing out (and Ignatious said similarly) that the proposition that the Bible alone contains divine revelation is, in itself, a logical contradiction. Because the only way we know WHICH books are in the bible itself is from decisions made (or revelations received) outside the Bible itself. So there is at least one extra-biblical truth we MUST believe in order to believe the Bible itself.

All in all, I don't think one will do badly if one follows the Bible alone, but if one does, one must realize that one is not, in fact, following the Bible alone.

Also, the very fact that there is at least one necessary extra-biblical revelation means one can't automatically close the door on others.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/11


Ignatius you bring up good points. I'm unsure if we're addressing the same questions/arguments. Are you saying, "the early Church had authority to select the books to be canonized: therefore they had authority to establish other methods of obtaining salvation outside of the doctrines of the 27-books in the NT?" Also, can we distinguish the difference between apostolic authority and clergy authority? In my understanding, the Apostles divinely-proclaimed the last say in inspired God breathed revelations revealing the necessary means of Salvation. Do you believe otherwise? We may be in two different belief systems where our arguments cant find common-ground do to our faith in different historical records and interpretations.
---Poppa_Bear on 9/29/11


Igantius 2, you also said to me,
" Which Pope do you want me to follow? Which one are you bondage to?"

I'm in bondage to Christ, a slave to Christ, that is who I follow, and I said to you if when you join the body of Christ you too will follow Christ. As of now you are free to be who you want, and you have chosen a follower of the Eastern Orthodox. That is why I said that the day Christ is on the throne of your life, then you will be a part of the body of Christ. You will need to be born of the Spirit, water can only clean you outside.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Home Equity Loans


\\But you defend every tradition they believe.\\

I have corrected misunderstandings of what the RCC believes, though that is a distinction to subtle for you to grasp.

\\ And the atrocities they have committed for the Church, the RCC.\\

What atrocities have I defended? Please be specific.

\\ There is no difference between the RCC and E. Orthodox, that's why you and Ignatius defend them.\\

Yes there is.

Actually, Roman Catholics and Protestants are MUCH closer to each other, because they share 1500 years of the same history.

And both are infected with filioquism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/11


Poppa Bear,

You accept 27 books in the NT (and perhaps believe Matthew wrote the first Gospel, Mark the second, Luke the third, and John the third) because some men in the Early Church told us that. You didn't get that from Scriptures Alone.

We can agree that the Holy Spirit guided the Ancient Church to tell Christians which books should belong in the NT, but it is still appealing to a extra Biblical authority, the Church.

What is the Church? Those who have put their faith in the resurrected Jesus and follow all the Traditions of the Apostles and their successors, and celebrate the Eucharist with a canonical Bishop, so say Saint Ignatius of Antioch in the early 2nd century.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 9/29/11


Mark V-

Yet the Reformers couldn't agree what was the Truth. Martin Luther (and his church) believed John Calvin was heretic. John Calvin believed he was a heretic. Martin Luther believed Zwingli' was a even more heretic. He even said one was better of becoming a Catholic then to join his heretic Reformed church.

The Reformers was just as corrupted as the RCC. They also killed people that disagreed with them.

While they all believe the RCC needed reformed, they all died with a VERY different profession of what the Truth was. They excommunicated each other and often spoke badly about each other. Each became the Pope of their church. Which Pope do you want me to follow? Which one are you bondage to?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/29/11


Ignatius, I knew you were not speaking for the body of Christ. You were singling out others. I don't defend a denomination, I defend the Truth of the gospel. When you join the body of Christ you will understand. You should repent for your bias attitude.

Cluny, I have known for two years that you both were not Catholic. But you defend every tradition they believe. And the atrocities they have committed for the Church, the RCC. There is no difference between the RCC and E. Orthodox, that's why you and Ignatius defend them. When you repent and join the body of Christ, and speak for the Truth of the gospel and stop worshipping saints and Mary, then you will also know the Truth, because then Christ will be on the Throne not some saint or Mary.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Interest Rates


Mark V-

I am fully aware of the Roman Church' corruption during the Medieval Times, but like the Pharisees, you make the sins of others visible, but keep your own sins silent.

The Protestant Reformers and Protestants took within their power to kill, behead, burned, or excommunicate people they disagreed with too. John Calvin burned Michael Servetus because they had a theological disagreement. In 1525, during the Peasants War, Martin Luther encouraged mass violence:

"Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or devilish than a rebel" (Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants)

In IC.XC.,
---ignatius- on 9/29/11


"What people are you talking about? You, me and all those who are saved? (Mark V)

Protestants, of course. Protestants since the 16th century has been slipping from each other and started churches where they have their own Pope. No Protestant can agree on what "Protestantism" really is, although they all agree that the RCC is wrong. "Truth" in Protestantism is in the eyes of the beholder. There is no central authority.

"Why don't you repent for defending them? (Mark_V. on 9/28/11)

I only defend doctrines in the RCC that agree with Holy Tradition. If you speak any doctrine in agreement with Holy Tradition, I will defend you too.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/28/11


\\There been division in the RCC from the beginning.\\

Neither Ignatius nor I are Roman Catholics.

Has that sunk into your understanding yet?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/28/11


Ignatius, you say,
"Look at your own people Mark V."
What people are you talking about? You, me and all those who are saved?
There been division in the RCC from the beginning. Yet with their power, they could kill, behead, or excommunicate anyone that oppose their teachings. What rights did those man have? The reformers who where Catholics themselves opposed the teachings of the Church because the Church had corrupted the Truth. Many died for the Truth. Isn't the Truth important to you? Or you willing to give up your soul for them? Who do you stand for? The Truth, justice, for the glory of God are for the glory of man? Repent you asked. Why don't you repent for defending them? I repented I ever listened to them.
---Mark_V. on 9/28/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Internet Marketing


Strongaxe do you think the bible is lacking any truth necessary for eternal-life/salvation/Holy-living/dying? I cant tell if youre trying to say the bible is incomplete or false. Apologetics/logic/epistemology/philosophy are tools, but sometimes are used as weapons that protect/defend our pride-secret motives of the heart. For me the Bible is Gods word and more than adequate for all truth/knowledge related to the Lord. Mass information can be profitable, but when we cant even be obedient with just 1 Gospel then attempting to hunt down other/Gospels/writings/special-revelations/traditions may be, well, something to really ponder. Sola Scriptura seems to be getting used in the wrong context For-the-record-historically-speaking.
---Poppa_Bear on 9/28/11


\\no more LIARS than rcc who created a Pharisee type religion ABOUT Christ yet do not know or care to follow Christ and Apostles\\

You don't actually think that YOU know or follow Christ and the Apostles, do you, Rhonda?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/28/11


lee1538:

Believing every word of scripture is from God is one thing. Believing every word not of scripture is not from God is very different. To equate the two is a logical fallacy.

Compare:
1. All apples are fruits.
2. Oranges are not apples.
3. Therefore, oranges are not fruits.

This fallacy uses the same faulty logic as deriving Sola Scriptura from Matthew 4:4.

Scripture itself does not contain a list of which books are scriptural and which are not. Such lists are necessarily extra-biblical and man-made. You could argue that such selection was made by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but that only provides evidence of divine authority that is in itself extra-biblical.
---StrongAxe on 9/28/11


Ignatius historical Protestantism doesnt claim that the 27 were the only inspired letters/books ever wrote, we do believe that the 27 letters/epistles/Gospels of the NT are inspired/prophetically or/and communicated and have the greatest amount of evidence to be attributed to the authors that they have been with Hebrews being an exception. , but we do believe that everything required for salvation-Holy instruction for Godly living are contained in the bible. Is there something lacking in the NT in-your-opinion that leaves you confused about your duties/position in Christ/heaven/hell/sin/sanctification/Father/Spirit/Son/Gospel/eternity/obedience/forgiveness?
---Poppa_Bear on 9/28/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Life Insurance


We Orthodox don't. You bear false witness. Repent Mark V. Even many of your Protestant writers will call you a liar.

*****

no more LIARS than rcc who created a Pharisee type religion ABOUT Christ yet do not know or care to follow Christ and Apostles

True Believers SIMPLY follow Christ

all others bow down serve and worship their false ministers through the denominations they love dearly ...the doctrines dogmas and pagan abominations all introduced by their MOTHER Rev 17

when Christ returns to rule the earth from Jerusalem HE will destroy all the worlds governments and religions (even the one's about HIM) and establish righteousness with Gods Holy Laws and HIS Kingdom on Earth
---Rhonda on 9/28/11


Because the listing of the 27 books was the concensus....as early as the 2d century.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11

I have several historical books written by various Anglican/Protestant scholars and Historians, and they all disagree with you.

Most notably, J.N.D Kelly "Early Christian Doctrines", Philip Scahff (History of the Christian Church).

Historians Mikhail Emmauelovich Posnov (the History of the Christian Church Until the great Schism 1054) and Diarmaid MacCulloch "Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years" also disagree with you.

Google "The Formation of the New Testament Canon" by Historian Richard Carrier.

These are your own people.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/28/11


"they want to interpret Scirpture the way they want and this way they can add to the Word of God" (Mark V)

Look at your own people Mark V. They have been divided (with thousands of sects) for 500 years. Each person can interpret the Scriptures the way they seem fit. That is why when one person interpret the Scriptures differently in any Protestant church, they can choose to separate and create their own Church and then become the Pope of that church. Even Martin Luther was amazed at the level of division he caused.

"idol worship just as the RCC and Eastern Orthodox have. "

We Orthodox don't. You bear false witness. Repent Mark V. Even many of your Protestant writers will call you a liar.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 9/28/11


//Why do you accept only 27 books in the NT? Where it Scriptures does it say that?

Because the listing of the 27 books was the concensus of what constituted scripture and that as early as the 2d century.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Make Money


Leej and Poppa Bear, great answers. The reason they argue that Scripture interprets Scripture is because they want to interpret Scirpture the way they want and this way they can add to the Word of God what is not there, Idol worship and works for salvation. And in case you ask they justify why they do those things by looking for loopholes or single words. But the Bible is clear about what happened to Isarel every time they fail, they did so by going back to idol worship just as the RCC and Eastern Orthodox have. They have kept the membership in bondage for centuries.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/11


"If Jesus believed in what was written in Scripture, then should we not also do so?" (lee1538)

That's a red-herring argument. I NEVER once said otherwise.

First, not everything was contained in Scriptures, as Saint Paul alluded to a extra biblical Jewish Tradition in 2 Timothy 3:8. Second, some NT doctrines came from extra biblical Jewish Tradition: Abraham's Bosom, Moses's Seat, the names of the magicians in Exodus 7:11,22, etc. And Third, the words of God came through in the Ancient Church which told us which books belong in the Bible and which doesn't. Why do you accept only 27 books in the NT? Where it Scriptures does it say that?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/26/11


//So are Protestants. For example, you believe in Sola Scriptura, even though you admitted before that the doctrine or principle has no basis in the Scriptures.

Mt 4:4 But he answered, It is written,Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

If Jesus believed in what was written in Scripture, then should we not also do so?

If we are to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God, where else would we look to see what comes from God's mouth, rather than the Scripture?
---lee1538 on 9/26/11


Sola Scriptoria simply means that the bible has a greater authority than man/pope. Do you believe otherwise? Dark and light talk, that seems to be a hostel way to throw the scriptures around in this case. During the reformation reformers died because they believed that the means of Salvation was made clear in the Bible/Scriptures and that the Catholic Church/clergy was not greater than Gods word when they put man made requirements on Salvation that contradicted the Bible/Scripture. Thank God that they did or we might still be in the dark ages. Baring truth? As we grow in Him/faith/grace/love and His word we will bare more truth and light to a dying world through word and deed.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 9/26/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Rehab Treatments


"they are so deep in their traditions" (Mark V)

So are Protestants. For example, you believe in Sola Scriptura, even though you admitted before that the doctrine or principle has no basis in the Scriptures. It is a Tradition of Men.

But I am sure that you and other Protestants don't like to hear such things because the darkness hates the light, as Jesus said (John 3:19-31). Those who are spiritually dead can not comprehend the Mysteries of God.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/26/11


//You can only get it from the Son of God Himself.//

so, why believe you, barb?
---aka on 9/25/11


Christ told HIS Church Matt 16:18,19 the True Believers to:

~ worship in truth and spirit John 4:23,24

~ believe EVERY Word of God only by HIS Word and Gods Law is there TRUTH Luke 4:4 John 17:17 Psa 119:142

~ follow Christ and HIS examples Matt 19:28 John 12:26 Phil 3:17 1Thess 1:6 2Thess 3:9 Heb 6:12 1Pet 2:21

~ The TRUTH is Christ will return to rule from Jerusalem Zech 14:1-4 destroying this gods world governments 2Corin 4:4 John 18:36 and rule Gods Kingdom on Earth as KING OF KINGS Isa 9:6-7 Dan 2:44,45

there is ONLY one TRUTH Apostles WARNED of serving another Christ 2Corin 11:3,4
---Rhonda on 9/24/11


You cannot bear witness to the truth until you have learned it from the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. You will not find the truth in the words of Paul or anyone else who claims to be speaking on behalf of Jesus. You can only get it from the Son of God Himself.

At the very end of that verse Jesus makes a profound statement that "Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice". Pilot didn't know what He was talking about because he really didn't care about truth.
---barb on 9/24/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Stocks


Leej, great answer, I'm sure those from the Eastern Orthodox and the RCC don't like to hear such things, they are so deep in their traditions that it would take a supernatural miracle to change anyone's heart.
Because it is as Christan said,
"Truth is the sole property of God and unless He dispenses His grace through His Holy Spirit, the sinner will never receive His Truth."

That is why it takes a supernatural act of God on those who are spiritually dead.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/11


lee1538, I agree with you about add-ons to the Bible. If had more to say to us, he would have included it in the Bible. I just have one genuine and friendly question about your last post. What is living by grace? I've heard the just shall live by faith. What would someone who is living by grace look like, in terms of daily living, activities, etc?
---Jed on 9/24/11


"What you have listed is known as ADD-ON" (lee1538)

Nope. It's called Apostolic Tradition, which was in both written and unwritten form passed along by the successors of the Apostles (2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thes 3:6, 2 Timothy 2:2, 3:14). By the way, the Seat of Moses was a extra biblical tradition, yet Jesus recognized it's authority (Matthew 23:2).

"To you guys the simplicity of the Gospel has become complex. One is saved and lives by the grace of Christ, not by religious junko!"

On the contrary, we preach the WHOLE Christ and salvation, not fragments of it.

"The flesh loves religion!!!!!"

The Spirit does too. But it's called pure religion (James 1:27, KJV).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/25/11


Ignatius - What you have listed is known as ADD-ON to the gospel of Christ as depicted in the Bible.

To you guys the simplicity of the Gospel has become complex. One is saved and lives by the grace of Christ, not by religious junko!

The flesh loves religion!!!!!
---lee1538 on 9/24/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Diabetes


By staying faithful to Holy Tradition (the Living Tradition of the Church):

1) Sacred Scriptures (with the LXX or Septuagint with the Deutero-canonical books as the authorized OT Scriptures)

2) The writings of the Ancient Fathers.

3) The dogmatic confessions of the first Seven God-inspired Ecumenical Synods. And the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed as the Holy confession of the Church.

4) Ancient Christian Baptismal/Eucharistic ceremonies texts.

5) The ancient Divine Liturgies of Saint James, Saint Basil, and Saint John Chrysostom, and other ancient Liturgies.

6) Holy Icons

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/24/11


Unless one is in the covenant of grace and born of the Spirit by the will of God, there's no truth in anyone of us. Jesus declared:

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:32,36

Truth is the sole property of God and unless He dispenses His grace through His Holy Spirit, the sinner will never receive His Truth.

What separated Pilate from the Truth (aka Jesus Christ) was the lack of faith from God. His confession in unbelief confirms that God does not give His faith to anyone or everyone. Pilate was not a chosen vessel of God to receive His gift of faith, basically he was in the same vessel as Esau was.
---christan on 9/24/11


The Spirit of Truth guides the believer into all truth. He does not speak of His own authority, but rather testifies of The Truth. Jesus is that Truth. Jhn 16:13>Jhn 15:26
"HOW you would know you are? By faith. "He who believes in [Jesus], as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." Jhn 7:38
---josef on 9/23/11

AMEN!!!
---Chria9396 on 9/23/11


"The Spirit bears witness:
1John 5:6 "it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."
1 John 5:10"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself"
Romans 8:16
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Chria9396 on 9/22/11

Amen. And again I say Amen.
The Spirit of Truth guides the believer into all truth. He does not speak of His own authority, but rather testifies of The Truth. Jesus is that Truth. Jhn 16:13>Jhn 15:26
"HOW you would know you are? By faith. "He who believes in [Jesus], as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." Jhn 7:38
---josef on 9/23/11


Read These Insightful Articles About Depression


We are not perfect about how we represent the truth, especially in our example in the sight of God. But > "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is there, whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:7-8) Part of how we know is we have God correcting us to do better.
---Bill_willa6989 on 9/23/11


Jesus is the truth and the final authority, period. God taught us his ways and gave us His Truth in His Holy Word, the Bible. If what you are saying does not line up to the Bible, the whole Bible, you are speaking lies, not the truth. If you tell someone something that is contrary to God's laws and his teacings, you are not bearing witness to the truth and you are serving the father of the lies, satan.
---Jed on 9/22/11


"Are you bearing witness to the truth? and how can you be so sure you are? (just curious as to HOW you would know you are?)"
The Spirit bears witness:
1John 5:6 "it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."
1 John 5:10"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself"
Romans 8:16
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"
---Chria9396 on 9/22/11


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.