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Is Grace Unconditional

Is God's grace unconditional for our eternal salvation or does grace simply enable us to obey the law?

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 ---lee1538 on 9/22/11
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God's saving grace, His gift of faith and repentance is not offered to everyone markV///

MarkV please PROVE beyond a shaddow of a doubt salvation is not offered to everyone.

Show us through scripture where God says I will not offer salvation to everyone, but only teh elect.

You can offer me a piece of cake, and again, I do not have to accept your offer!
---kathr4453 on 9/28/11


THE FLAW LIES IN THE BLOG QUESTION ITSELF

If we have to earn grace then there is a condition, we cannot earn grace.
But gods grace is given to us for salvation and to obey the law, even though we are neither justified or saved by keeping the law

The question suggest one or the other, but the answer is both. god's grace cannot be earned AND it is given to help us obey ALL THE LAWS

Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God [is] able to make all grace abound toward you, that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work:

---Francis on 9/28/11


Romans 2:15-17
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. ,


It is interesting even Paul was mislead into believing ALL men will be Judged according to the Gospel. How on earth can God think to Judge men acording to the Godpel if only certain people were ALLOWED the GIFT of seeing or hearing it?
---kathr4453 on 9/28/11


If it was conditional, it would not be grace.
---micha9344 on 9/28/11


Francis:
Are you a Christian?
If so then how can you still claim being Christian when, according to the SDA doctrine you follow, you are GUILTY of ALL 10 commandments (James 2:10) so therefore you have "NOT SEEN HIM NOR KNOWN HIM" (1john3:6).

These are arguments you have used to justify SDA doctrine to us so I am just applying them to you.

Please explain how can you claim to be Christian when according to your doctrine you are guilty of all commandments and have therefore not seen Him nor known Him?

---Haz27 on 9/28/11




//Was that sermon based on scripture or personal opinion.

This Greek professor was also a very successful church planter - many of the churches he started grew in the thousands in membership. He knew his Bible very well.

//Because it is a GIFT that can be accepted or rejected it is offered to ALL MAN,

Doubtfully not true at all since there are many who die without even hearing the gospel. Their judgment can only be on the basis of their works, not that they were in Christ.

God has a purpose for ones life and that purpose will not be thrawed.
---lee1538 on 9/28/11


Kathr 2: you also said,
"Because it is a GIFT that can be accepted or rejected it is offered to ALL MAN, Whosoever will may acccept this free Gift."
God's saving grace, His gift of faith and repentance is not offered to everyone. The reason people reject the gospel is because they have no faith in Christ. If God provided that faith and repentance, their hearts would be open to Christ because God opened it. Faith is only given to those whom God has predestined from the foundation of the world. You don't want God to have that power over you. You want to be able to say yes or no. But you have no saying as to who will be saved and who will not. Only God has that right and power. In your mind you will not accept that.
---Mark_V. on 9/28/11


MarkV, I'm not a Johnny one note verse snatcher. That is left to stupid ignorant people who are not able to read more than a few words at a time.

I am able to read whole chapters and even whole books to see what God has said, before jumping to any conclusions. I also pray before and ask God to explain and show me many verses to verify and qualify what He means.

In doing, I also take into account all scripture referring to GIFT and walla, here in Romans 5 is a beautiful perfect explaination of this FABULOUS Gift, yet the word faith, elect aren't even mentioned. Hummm.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/11


Kathr,
There's no merit in believing by faith, Scripture teaches that the very faith and repentance through which we are saved are themselves a gift of God. "By Grace have ye been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God" Eph. 2:8. The Christian is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved. Even the beginning of faith, the desposition to seek salvation, is itself a work of grace and a gift of God. Men will not seek God without the gift of faith
"...that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light.."
---Mark_V. on 9/28/11


-lee1538 on 9/28/11


Was that sermon based on scripture or personal opinion.

Because it is a GIFT that can be accepted or rejected it is offered to ALL MAN, Whosoever will may acccept this free Gift. Gifts are not forced on anyone. Then it's not a GIFT is it?

Men try to give me gifts all teh time. I turn them down. That's my free will turning it down. I don't HAVE TO accept anything just because someone says it's a gift.

The FACT that man cannot save themselves AKA sheddding our own blood to atone for our sin, THEN it is Jesus Christ shed blood and risen life that is offered as the GIFT. NOT GOD's Majic wand deciding who will be saved and who will not.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/11




kathr - //s IT Salvation or is IT Faith?Since IT is singular we must choose which one is the Gift.

There can always be a problem of viewing ONLY one verse of the Bible and then interpreting that apart from other verses in the Bible.

Romans 6:23 ESV For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I once asked my Greek professor if the word 'free' was in the verse and all I got was a sermon from him that salvation is giving only to those whom God has chosen to be saved.

We do see it as a 'free gift' in the greek-english interlinear Bible.
---lee1538 on 9/28/11


Frances, the verses you used say nothing of God's Grace. They are speaking of the attitude of the one receiving salvation (be obedient).
---Elder on 9/28/11
I AGREE 100%

You claim SDA teach we are saved by grace alone, but Francis includes judgement in transgressing the law. ---Haz27 on 9/27/11
Where did I EVER say that?
You are now talking about TWO different things:(1) GRACE and (2) PLAN OF REDEEMPTION)
And YES Judgemnt is part of plan of redeemption/ salvation. There MUST be judgment
---Francis on 9/28/11


John 5:14 "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

What is Jesus saying if not, 'Watch it, lest you fall into a bigger DISGRACE than before'?

On this issue therefore I agree with Eloy and conclude that Elder is out of line.
---Nana on 9/28/11


"it is a gift of God, not of works" so that no one can boast" ///


Is IT Salvation or is IT Faith?

Since IT is singular we must choose which one is the Gift.

It doesn't say THEY are the Gift of God, that would mean both.


I believe Jesus is that Gift. We also know that the Holy Spirit is the GIFT as well. SO, then teh GIFT is the Spirit of the life of Christ in you. If we are Saved by His Life, it must be.

We are JUSTIFIED by Faith, by His Blood, and SAVED BY HIS LIFE. No where does it say Justification is a Gift given to only a select few.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/11


Frances, the verses you used say nothing of God's Grace. They are speaking of the attitude of the one receiving salvation (be obedient). Two different things.
Grace is God's attidute towards the sinner. His Grace allows us to repent of our sin and become obedient.
If Grace is earned then God becomes a debtor to us. If we worked for it, it is owed to us, Eph 2:8-9.
All Biblical Greek and Hebrew words carry the meaning of favor because of the goodness of the giver not the goodness of the receiver.
Grace is God's favor towards us. While we were yet sinners and disobedient Christ died for us Mark 2:17, Rom 5:6-8.
Now the god that Eloy serves tells him something else so beware!
---Elder on 9/28/11


Lee1538, Markv was arguing against all promises being unconditional. That's thecrazy part. He loves to ARGUE just to argue.


And MarkV, your crazy twisted doctrine states FAITH is a CONDITION and then calls it a gift at the same time.????

So if Faith is conditional and a gift given only to the elect, then wouldn't salvation also be conditional.

You just can't have it both ways.

If salvation is unconditional given only to the elect, faith would have no meaning here and would not even be necessary, or conditional.

Faith and salvation would be one in the same...UNCONDITIONAL.

But no where is it taught faith is uncnditional.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/11


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Samuel:
As an Adventist perhaps you can answer what Francis has not.

I showed Francis in James 2:10 how he is
guilty of breaking the Sabbath and the 9 other commandments.

AND, using Francis's own words in describing 1John3:6,
"whoever transgresses the law has not seen him nor known him".

So we see Francis transgresses the law and is GUILTY of ALL so, according to SDA doctrine, he has "NOT SEEN HIM NOR KNOWN HIM".

You claim SDA teach we are saved by grace alone, but Francis includes judgement in transgressing the law. Do you agree that this is what SDA teach?
---Haz27 on 9/27/11


kathr //You argued over and over on another blog about God's unconditional promises, totally trashing the thread stating there is no such thing as an unconditional promise...yet you claim unconditional Grace.

To whom are the unconditional promises given to? Those who are in Christ or those who do not know Christ?



Salvation that leads to eternal life in Christ is strictly a gift from God. Eph. 2:8-10.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


Kathr, it's funny to you because your theology is corrupted. The condition is faith, but that faith is given by God. It does not come from within man.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith,
(NOW GET THIS)
"it is a gift of God, not of works" so that no one can boast"

Even the faith you have to exercise is given by God. Yet, to many others it is not given, so the requirement for them is still faith. And since they get no faith from God, they reject the Word of God and the Bible says, they are condemned already. John 3:18.
The reason your salvation is up in the air, you had no faith when you confessed Christ, you were expecting to get it as a reward for your great duty of confessing.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/11


MarkV, it is funny, you state here Grace is unconditional, yet deny there are any unconditional promises. How is that? You argued over and over on another blog about God's unconditional promises, totally trashing the thread stating there is no such thing as an unconditional promise...yet you claim unconditional Grace.

So you say then Grace is not given by Promise? Grace is not received through any promises? How exactly can you receive the Spirit of Grace or even insult the Spirit of Grace if it is unmerited...meaning to you, it's just given to those God chose to give it to?

So exactly why were the Jews repremanded for INSULTING the Spirit of Grace by going back under Law? AKA Falling from Grace!
---kathr4453 on 9/27/11


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//When you receive Christ, do you KNOW what and who and even WHY you are recieving Him?

Many of us have found Christ has invaded our lives as it was His will and foreordination that we should be saved. And often because of the dynamics of that, one is not always given much choice but to submit to His lordship.

What alternatives did Saul of Tarsus really have?

God had chosen him for His own work and glory and we can surmise that He has done much the same for us.

1 Th. 5:9-10 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


//Lee1538, your question has two problems. You are talking about initial salvation, and then life after salvation.

When I speak of salvation, I am referring to the entire process - from our first acknowledgement of Christ Jesus as our Lord & Savior, to our sanctification in our walk, and our final glorification when He appears.

To fall from grace is to deny what Christ has done for us on our behalf and try to establish our own system of righteousness.

The children of Hagar (Gal. 5:24f) have done just that by their teaching that our righteousness is in obedience to law instead of in Christ.

Eternal salvation is open to all who would confess Jesus Christ, died & resurrected. Romans 8:9f
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


"When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's rememberance
"The blood of Christ while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law was NOT to cancel sin...it will stand in the sanctuary UNTIL the final atonement."
---lee1538 on 9/27/11

However, Adventism holds that you must reach a high level of holiness or perfection to merit eternal life - that is what your Investigative Judgment is all about!
--lee1538 on 9/26/11

IF YOU CANNOT SEE HOW THESE TWO POST ARE very different THEN YOU NEED HELP
---FRANCIS on 9/27/11


Lee of many names now you have another name! Do you rent them and have to replace them after the contract expires?

You have been Lee, Leeonia, Leej, now Lee1538! Any others I missed?

Why the deceit?
---Warwick on 9/27/11


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We are saved by Grace:

Meaning we are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is what Grace is, Jesus death and resurrection.

To as many as receive Him,to them gave He the power to become the sons of God.

When you receive Christ, do you KNOW what and who and even WHY you are recieving Him?

You cannot receive Him by WORKS, but only BY FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/11


Francis //WHEN YOU POST YOUR SOURCE, we can continue our conversation. until then I see no reason to communicte with you.
=
The Great Controversy p. 483 "When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's rememberance."

Salvation in Adventism, is therefore based upon works, not God's unmerited favor.

"The blood of Christ while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law was NOT to cancel sin...it will stand in the sanctuary UNTIL the final atonement." Patriarchs & Prophets, p. 357
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


MarkV if there was such a thing as unmerited Grace, meaning ALL would be given Grace without any merit, again teaching universal salvation. Since God is not a respector of persons, it cannot mean what you say it means.

GRACE is God's Riches at Christ's Expense. Grace is given to Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ, and after we are saved we CONTINUE to live By Grace, Grow in Grace, all STILL done through FAITH. Otherwise you are saying you can sit around on your big fat duff, and do nothing.

Then according to you you would be sinless, never sin, because it it God's will you sin no more.

---kathr4453 on 9/27/11


Lee1538, your question has two problems. You are talking about initial salvation, and then life after salvation. We see in Galatians Paul addressed thesecond issue of life under Grace after salvation. THEY FELL FROM GRACE, therefore you cannot call it unmerited. If it were unmerited there would not have been an issue.

Secondly is salvation( GRACE) given unconditionally? Who qualifies? Everyone?
---kathr4453 on 9/27/11


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Thank you Fracis for challenging Lee.

Adeventist believe we are saved by Grace. But we like John Wesley and JESUS do not believe that Christians should wallow in sin. We believe that while alive we should be striving for holiness. Why? Becasue we love GOD and love others. Because we are full on the HOLY SPIRIT and wish to live like JESUS.

We do not wish to live like the world. This is true of all real Christians no matter their denomination.
---Samuel on 9/27/11


"The NATION WAS ELECT"
Indicating the whole nation was of the elect, which is false, the nation was chosen above the others, but only the elect from the nation will be saved///

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.


MarkV, if you have an issue with this verse, take it upwith God. I see no where any elect individuals are SAVED.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/11


However, Adventism holds that you must reach a high level of holiness or perfection to merit eternal life - that is what your Investigative Judgment is all about!
--lee1538 on 9/26/11
WHEN YOU POST YOUR SOURCE, we can continue our conversation. until then I see no reason to communicte with you. So post your source even if you are mistaken I will accept it
---Francis on 9/27/11


Kathr, Your still twisting the passages as always. You said,
"Let's be clear here, GRACE is merited through FAITH."
The passage doesn't say that, it says,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, "and that not of yourselves" it is a gift of God" There is no merit in faith, it is a gift of God.
Second you said,
"The NATION WAS ELECT"
Indicating the whole nation was of the elect, which is false, the nation was chosen above the others, but only the elect from the nation will be saved. Not those who reject Christ. There is only One way into Heaven, throught Jesus Christ, and His sacrifice. No Israelite will enter heaven who reject Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/11


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Allan, lit.Gk: "but God which introduced of his love toward us, because besides being of the offenders, of us Christ for us died." Rm.5:8. This speaks of Christ dying with the offenders. The deceived and the unsaved sinfully say, grace is free and unearned. But God says, only the obedient will receive my grace, and the wicked my condemnation. period. No wiggle room there, you either follow God and receive his grace, or else you do not follow God and receive his wrath and damnation, no ifs, no ands, and no buts. Can anybody be good enough for God? absolutely! there are the proven righteous and the obedient manifested before and during and after Christ. And such are the citizenship of the kingdom of heaven.
---Eloy on 9/27/11


2 Tim 1-8,9 so do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me His prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the Gospel by the power of God who has saved and called us to a holy life, not because of anything we have done, but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ-Jesus who has destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 9/26/11


thank you Bro. Elder. For by grace we are saved. We have grace when we are saved. I have experienced God's grace in abundance. My flesh wars with the Spirit every single day. We are liars if we say we have no sin.
---shira3877 on 9/26/11


Francis // Corinthians 6:9 BE NOR DECIEVED neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, ...shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor. 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, and by the Spirit of our God.

While we are called to be obedient, it is a call to be obedient to the Spirit of our God, not to the law.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We should realize that we can never be righteous enough to merit God's favor but grace is given to those who are born spiritually in Christ.
---lee1538 on 9/26/11


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Francis, A-men.
---Eloy on 9/26/11


Eloy, I would suggest that you read again what I wrote. And if you are referencing my words, it would be better and more accurate to quote me directly. My words are simple enough, please just quote exactly what I have written. If you would quote me directly, I am more inclined to think that you are honestly trying to make a point. And that, I can appreciate.
---Allan on 9/26/11


Francis:
You're similar to Nicodemus whose understanding was physical. He misunderstood Jesus about "born again" and you also misunderstand 1Cor 5 & 6.

Consider 1 Cor 2:13,14
"These things we also speak, not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED."

You read scripture physically and judge according to the flesh.
You even bring yourself under condemnation as YOU are GUILTY of ALL.
---Haz27 on 9/26/11


Haz27 on 9/26/
YOUR ARGUEMENT HAS ALREADY BEEN REFUTED BY THE BIBLE

1 Corinthians 5:11 I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is CALLED A BROTHER be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one DO NOT EAT

1 Corinthians 6:9 BE NOR DECIEVED neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
---Francis on 9/26/11


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Francis:
Rom 7 clearly speaks of 10 commandments.

Our "inward man" delights in this SPIRITUAL law.
But theres a battle with the flesh.

So Rom 8:3,4
"what the law could NOT do in that it was WEAK through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son... He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us".

We believe Christ is in us hence the body is DEAD because of sin (Rom8:10).
Why do you continue to judge, what is (by faith) dead anyway, according to the law claiming transgressors are not Christians?

You are forgetting who you are (James 1:24)
I no longer live but Christ lives in me.
Be a doer of the word. Believe on Jesus.
---Haz27 on 9/26/11


Let's be clear here, GRACE is merited through FAITH.

Some believe that God picked one's name out of a hat, and they just woke up with unmerited grace, and said...Oh Gee Wiz, I'm savd. How did that happen, I must be one of the elect.

When God said in romans 11,
A remnant according to the election of Grace He was talking about the REMNANT of Jews. There is no such thing as a remnamt gentile, or a remnant gentile NATION representing God on earth.

And it has to do with GRACE verse LAW. Israel was chosen to be God's Elect on earth via the Law. Israel Mine Elect. Israel was a "Nation of People", not individuals.

The NATION WAS ELECT!
---kathr4453 on 9/26/11


lee, A-men. All flesh is commanded to obey Jesus' Law, all flesh is commanded to repent and to love, love Jesus first and completely and to love others as Jesus showed his love to us, so we are to likewise love one another, else there is no grace. Grace not shared is grace despaired. The blessed bear fruit: the figless are condemned.
---Eloy on 9/26/11


Foolish antiChristians and antiChrists spread their common delusions onto their own shame. God says: Work, then you get my grace. But the sinner says: I will not work, just give me your grace.
---Eloy on 9/26/11


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Eloy, it does not surprise me that you would say,
"Allan, There is no such thing as unmerited grace, that is a lie from the pit."
Don't you realize what you are saying? That what is written by God is from the pit of hell. Because those words are from Scripture.
"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant accoring to the election of grace, "and if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise, grace is no longer grace."
That is what Allan said right from God's Word. And you call that from the pit of hell.
He explained what unmerited grace meant. And you want people to go to your website, to hear you speak against God and His grace.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/11


Francis, God says, Why call you all me, Lord, Lord, and Do Not the things which I say? If you all love me, my commandments keep. And the Landowner said to his son, Go work today in my vineyard, for I leave into a far country and will return again to receive the fruits thereof. And that son answered and said, I, Lord, but went not. When the Lord returned he said to that son, Wicked and slothful servant, with no fruit. Depart from me, all you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. For truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you all did nothing for one of the least of these, you all did nothing for me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
---Eloy on 9/26/11



---Elder on 9/24/11
In the light of what you just posted can you explain these verses for me please:
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things, and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to THEM THAT OBEY HIM.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all THEM THAT OBEY HIM,

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
---Francis on 9/26/11


Allan, There is no such thing as unmerited grace, that is a lie from the pit. God is clear, When his says, Obey my commandments, that is prerequisite to receiving any grace or blessing or reward or any thing at all from God. When the heavens opened and the voice said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, Hear you all him." When he commanded, "Hear you all him", that clearly means "Obey you all his words" or "commandments whatsoever he tells you to do, Do it!" Understand, when a soul disobeys God's Commands, they disobey God, and no disobedience receives grace, but rightly receives his wrath and damnation. Every barren tree is worthless and is condemned.
---Eloy on 9/26/11


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However, Adventism holds that you must reach a high level of holiness or perfection to merit eternal life - that is what your Investigative Judgment is all about!
--lee1538 on 9/26/11
POST YOUR SOURCE
---francis on 9/26/11


//Francis - are the sins of those in Christ counted against them as for their salvation?
---lee1538 on 9/24/11

No they are covered by His blood. IF we confess our sins He will forgive them
---Francis on 9/26/11
--------------
Good answer and correct for a change. However, Adventism holds that you must reach a high level of holiness or perfection to merit eternal life - that is what your Investigative Judgment is all about!

Do you remember having an occasional bad thought or that paper clip you stole from your boss'es desk? One is not always aware of his sin unless the Spirit reveals it to him.
---lee1538 on 9/26/11


Francis - are the sins of those in Christ counted against them as for their salvation?
---lee1538 on 9/24/11

No they are covered by His blood. IF we confess our sins He will forgive them
---Francis on 9/26/11


"By Grace God formed Salvation for us. Grace is not unmerited favor if we have to work for it or earn it some way."
(Another elder deception.)
God's Coomands are to be done, his commandments are not to be ignored."And every one that hears my words, and DOES NOT, builds his house upon the sand, and great is the fall of it. For the Son of man will come in the glory who's Father of him, with the angels of him, then he will reward to each according to The Works of them." -Jesus Christ, Brit Chadashah A.D.
---Eloy on 9/26/11


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"Can any man perform an act that meets God's standard of Righteousness?"
---Allan on 9/24/11

Can any man perform an act that lands him on the side of God's wrath?
Hebrews 10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
---Nana on 9/26/11


Correction:(Grace is) both for our salvation, to them that believe, and enables us to obey God, by the Spirit.
---chria9396 on 9/25/11


If the Grace of God is conditional, then what is being called grace is not Grace. Moreover, the Grace of God is more than just unmerited favour.

Every moment of an individual's existence is encompassed by the Grace of God.

Romans 5:8 makes it clear that God did the most for us, human beings, while we were at our worst. That is Grace.

Moreover, Grace defines God's attitude towards His creation: Isaiah 54:10.

Anyone who suggests that God gives you grace as reward for good conduct, Romans 5:20 speaks loudly: "Where sin abounded, Grace did much more abound."

Can any man perform an act that meets God's standard of Righteousness?

Human goodness does not equal God's Righteousness!
---Allan on 9/24/11


Deuteronomy 4:12 THE LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU out of the midst of the fire: And HE DECLARED unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED you to perform, even ten commandments, and HE WROTE them upon two tables of stone. LAW OF GOD

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded ME at that time to teach you statutes and judgments..LAW OF MOSES

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I COMMANDED UNTO HIM in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Jeremiah 7:22 I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them..concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey MY voice,
what God spoke directly to isarel is LAW OF GOD
what Moses spoke directly to israel is LAW OF MOSES
---Francis on 9/24/11


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Francis - are the sins of those in Christ counted against them as for their salvation?

Romans 4:7-8 Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered, blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.
---lee1538 on 9/24/11


"Grace is never unconditional, but given to the obedient and the repentant: the disobedient and nonrepentant receive wrath onto eternal damnation and not grace."
Eloy
(Another Eloy misdirection.)
By Grace God formed Salvation for us. Grace is not unmerited favor if we have to work for it or earn it some way.
---Elder on 9/24/11


If grace enables us to obey the law, does that mean that none of us have grace since there is no one that obeys the law all the time? Everyone sins, saved or not. Christians love God's Word and attempt to obey him with everyday living, however, when they fail at doing that, God's grace covers that sin. Those who reject God's Word and refuse his ways do not receive grace.
---Jed on 9/24/11


francis, unsaved sinners lie by misquoting Ephesians 2:8-10, by sinfully neglecting verse 10, in order to support their sin of disobedience. lit.Gk: "Whoever for grace to be saved which because of faith, though this not from you, God the giver: not from performings, that not somebody might boast for their doing: we are created in Christ Jesus, ONTO GOOD WORKS, whom God who before prepared, THAT IN THEM WE SHOULD WALK." "Be not deceived, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a person sows, that will the person also reap. Not all they that say to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven: rather the one that DOES THE COMMANDMENTS of Father of me which is in heaven." Gal.6:7+ Mt.7:21.
---Eloy on 9/25/11


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some believe there are 2 laws - the law of God = the 10 commandments, and the law of Moses. ---lee1538 on 9/24/11
Deuteronomy 19: at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established

Matthew 18:16 in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established

One of the reason it is called the law of Moses, is because only Moses and God was on that mount. What was said to Moses could not be established by two witnesses.

However, the ten commandments being spoken by God could be established by all of Israel because they all heard it.

Now in the bible, everything is at times referred to as THE LAW OF GOD, but the ten commandments is NEVER referred to as THE LAW OF MOSES, it is always the law of God
---Francis on 9/25/11


"Is God's grace unconditional for our eternal salvation or does grace simply enable us to obey the law?" Both
"Agree with Bill, Poppa Bear, Josef, Haz, Andy
Josef, "Father's Grace is sufficient for what ever we desire within His Kingdom" So what qualifies as being "within His Kingdom"?
Question, Paul: "It is mans willingness to obey God which is at question." And how does that one obey? Are there any able? Grace, being sufficient, enough, and more than that, exceedingly abundant,Is the means of entering, as well as that which we obtain when coming (boldly) before the throne. It is transforming, glory to glory, as we behold Him
---chria9396 on 9/25/11


francis //This question has already been answered cmpletely in the Bible:

The problem here is that some believe there are 2 laws - the law of God = the 10 commandments, and the law of Moses. The Christian has an obligation only to the law of God.

This group actually holds that grace is only a provision given to enable one to obey the law.

But that effectively makes works the basis for salvation and that Jesus is only a co-savior. In other words, salvation is not a gift but something one has to earn after receiving grace.

That view is in conflict with Eph. 2:8-10.
---lee1538 on 9/24/11


Grace is never unconditional, but given to the obedient and the repentant: the disobedient and nonrepentant receive wrath onto eternal damnation and not grace.
---Eloy on 9/24/11


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//Gods love and grace is demonstrated by the cross. It is done for everyone. Yet only those who believe shall be saved by that grace, and those who believe OBEY THE LAW

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him AND AND AND AND OBEYS THE LAW, should not perish but have eternal life..

The only problem here is that the Ellen White version flies in the face of what the church has taught for almost 19 centuries.
---lee1538 on 9/24/11


Is God's grace unconditional for our eternal salvation or does grace simply enable us to obey the law?
---lee1538 on 9/22/11

Gods love and grace is demonstrated by the cross. It is done for everyone. Yet only those who believe shall be saved by that grace, and those who believe OBEY THE LAW

mans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,
---Francis on 9/24/11


This question has already been answered cmpletely in the Bible:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
---francis on 9/23/11


God's grace is found in the election of His people, and His election is rooted in His love. Paul clearly teaches this, declaring,

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:11-13

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Clearly, salvation of the sinner is unconditional. Anything else is blasphemy and not of grace.
---christan on 9/24/11


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andy3996 is correct saying:"NO work of law can ever be added to Grace, otherwise it would be merrit."

Confirmed in Rom 11:6
"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work."

And Rom 5:2 "we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand,"

Now, "if the firstfruit (Christ) is holy, the lump is also holy" Rom11:16
Christians are now holy because of Christ in us.
---Haz27 on 9/23/11


Grace is God's act of love for us. Our actions of FAITH, BELIEF, and OBEDIENCE are the key requirements for our eternal life. The evidence for an Active relationship and submission to Jesus is apparent in nearly EVERY salvation verse. However they can be summed up in Christs own word in John 15:13-14
John 15:13-14 (AMP) (13) "No one has greater love than to lay down his own life for his friends. (14) You are My friends if you keep on doing the things which I command you to do."

Christ laid His life down for His friends Who actively obey His Commands.
---Tim on 9/23/11


NO work of law can ever be added to Grace, otherwise it would be merrit. rather then grace, but grace does enables us to become Holy before God. the only condition God ha s for his grace is to believe whleheartedly and to accept Christ Kurios
---andy3996 on 9/23/11


It is not Gods grace which is called into question concerning the myth of eternal security.

It is mans willingness to obey God which is at question.

Is 59:1-2

Paul
---paul on 9/23/11


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Father's Grace is sufficient for what ever we desire within His Kingdom. For "the grace of our Lord [is] exceedingly abundant with [the] faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of [whatever] need."
---Josef on 9/23/11


I think that many Christians have found the lyrics to the wonderful Hymn Amazing Grace a fairly good/accurate description of grace. Technically it is receiving what we do not deserve IE love or unmerited favor, while the opposite is mercy, having something withheld that we do deserve IE punishment. Grace takes many forms in our Christian pilgrimage every day, the way we respond to Gods love/holiness/gift of Salvation, to one another, experiential blessings and yes, in some ways our ability to obey is through Grace and His Spirit/Word.,
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 9/23/11


God's grace is personal so we are removed from our sinning and personally sharing with our Father. So, it's not just a theoretical question.
---Bill_willa6989 on 9/23/11


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