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Is Jewish Covenant Gone

Hasn't the OLD Jewish covenant - with its laws on tithing VANISHED AWAY? wasn't this fact made crystal clear to the jews, when their Temple was demolished in AD 70 (not long after Romans 8:13 was written by Paul) where he seems to have prophesied this very thing?.

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 ---paul on 9/24/11
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---Mark_V. on 9/29/11
Then the next time leej says somethng against E G White, just support him by quoting from any of her books.

I challenge him EVERY TIME for a source, he never has any.

this is one of his quotes:
"Much of her works is DOCTRINALLY ACURATE but we know that researchers have found much of what she wrote was from other peoples works."
---lee1538 on 9/28/11

Even Leej does not believe his own lies since he says MUCH of her work is doctrinally acurate. So who are yu kidding?
Why would anyone keep books that are not doctrinally acurate?

SO I CHALLENGE YOU AND LEEJ to post ANY and ALL inacurate doctrines from any E G WHite book which are NOT supported by scripture

I DARE YOU !!
---Francis on 9/29/11


Why did you say that I implied that God did not command burnt offering and sacrifice when it was God who said it?
--francis 9/29/11
Because you quoted Jer 7:22 "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices". Condensed: Thus saith the Lord, I spake NOT concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. That does not seem like the scripture to select to prove God made commandments about burnt offerings and sacrifices. But since the quote was not direct and your intent was not fully clear, I did say imply.
---Rocky on 9/29/11


francis, you said,

"Sorry lee1538 everyone here knows that you are a liar, none of what you say about adventist are true,"

francis, I agree completely on what Lee says concerning Adventism. In fact I have looked up a lot of what he has said, and find it to be true. I have also learned a lot from him that I never heard before concerning Adventist. I have most of EG white's books in my library. And have read much of what they teach from many other books. So I believe you are wrong and there is many who also believe you are wrong.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/11


to determine better which laws are still obeyed on earth, look at the book of Hebrews. hebrews transfers all duties and laws of the earthly sanctuary to the heavenly sanctuary. So all laws having to do with blood sacrifices need not be operformed on earth. That includes circumcision, women being away during time of discharge, and all other laws including blood sacrifices. tithe is not a blood sacrifice
---Francis on 9/29/11


---lee1538 on 9/28/11
Sorry lee1538 everyone here knows that you are a liar, none of what you say about adventist are true, infact I am so sure that they are all lies, in addition to bible verses I gave several SG white books that those who care about truth can check them and see that you are a liar. No christian is a false witness



---Rocky on 9/28/11
I will answer your next three questions if you answer me this ONE:
Why did you say that I implied that God did not command burnt offering and sacrifice when it was God who said it?
Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
---francis on 9/29/11




Haz27 YOUR ARGUEMENT HAS ALREADY BEEN REFUTED AND REJECTED, BY THE BIBLE

1 Corinthians 5:11 I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is CALLED A BROTHER be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one DO NOT EAT

1 Corinthians 6:9 BE NOR DECIEVED neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body

Do not rinse and repeat
---francis on 9/29/11


Francis //Here is a list of E G WHITE books NO christian library is complerte without these...

And you may admit the truth that anyone who has done an indepth study of Ellen White works, would have to admit nearly everything was borrowed from other sources.

That is how she made her living.

What I do not understand is why you keep persisting on Adventism, when you take a beating every time you get on this forum. Why don't you just follow others in finding a Biblical oriented church?
---lee1538 on 9/28/11


---Rocky on 9/28/11
the sad thing is that you do not even check the bible.
--Franics on 9/28/11
No, I have checked the Bible. I am well aware of many scriptures about the law, including the ones you cited. The sad thing is you are not answering, or even addressing the questions I asked on 9/28. And then you come back with a baseless, sarcastic attack. You throw out scriptures like a monkey with no explanation or understanding. You imply God did not command burnt offerings and sacrifices, see Lev23, Num6:14-18, Num10:10, Num29, Deut20.. - the long history of sacrifices in the OT.
---Rocky on 9/28/11


God himself said that THE LAW OF MOSES is the law which God commanded Moses at Herub to teach Isarel WITH STAUTES and JUDGMENTS

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

So anything before that, Example what God commanded to Noah ( clean and unclean animals) and Abraham CANNOT be a law of Moses because it came before God spoke to Moses at herub.

Tithe is one of those laws that predates Moses, it cannot then be a law of Moses.

Also Christ came as a lamb of God, bread from heaven, light of the world, to serve as high priest in the heavenly temple, not at 1/10 of our substance
---Francis on 9/28/11


Francis:
Are you a Christian?
If so then how can you still claim being Christian when, according to the SDA doctrine, you are GUILTY of ALL 10 commandments (James 2:10) so therefore you have "NOT SEEN HIM NOR KNOWN HIM" (1john3:6).

These are arguments you have used to justify SDA doctrine to us so I am just applying them to you.

You claim God's grace is given us for salvation "AND FOR OBEYING THE LAW". Please explain how can you claim to be Christian when you fail to obey the law, hence guilty of all commandments and have therefore not seen Him nor known Him?
---Haz27 on 9/28/11




James L,
Read Ezekiel, if the old covenant is done with, why the animal sacrafice and temple and priests, etc. during the milleneum?
---mikes on 9/28/11


---Rocky on 9/28/11
the sad thing is that you do not even check the bible.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
If God did not command then to make burnt offerings and sacrifices who did?
If you really want to make a good argument you have to also read the bible
---Francis on 9/28/11


Here is a list of E G WHITE books NO christian library is complerte without these
The Acts of the Apostles, Christ's Object Lessons, The Desire of Ages, The Great Controversy, The Ministry of Healing , Patriarchs and Prophets, Prophets and Kings, Steps to Christ, Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing

Most pastors have some or all of her books n their study. These books are also avalable online. Other church leaders and councelors like James Dubson makes it no secret that he uses many of her books in his study.

Those of you who are here and reading all the negative comments posted about E G WHITE go online, read any of these books. I sugest STEPS TO CHRIST and judge for yourself her writing
---Francis on 9/28/11


POST 1- One only has to look at the life of Paul, as presented in the Bible to see that this is a false notion. After his first missionary trip, he went to Jerusalem and met the Apostles. One topic was what to do with the gentiles. At Paul's urging they do not need to be circumcised and the agreement is made that they should "abstain from pollution of idols, and from fornication and things strangled and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day," Acts 15:20-21. What we have is one part of the law being not applicable to gentiles but another part being so, as a minimum, as they learn the rest of God's commandments during the sabbath teachings.
---mikes on 9/28/11


POST 3- The last instance I want to reference is his defense before the Sanhedrin in Acts 22, which starts "I am verily a man which am a Jew...", he isn't saying he was once or use to be, his statement is the present tense. either Paul believes in the importance of the OT covenant or is being deceitful to save his fresh.
Either the New Testament of the Bible was predominately written by a man was a deceiving hypocrite or by a man who understood the relevance of the old covenant and it relationship to the new.
---mikes on 9/28/11


//Rocky, to learn more about EGW google Ellen G. White, and Ellen White false prophecy

I have several of her books and as we had SDA neighbors my mother used to read to me as a child, much of what we have in Desire of the Ages.

Much of her works is doctrinally correct but we know that researchers have found much of what she wrote was from other peoples works.

Beliefs that are unique to Adventism were not taught or even heard of in the early church or for 19 centuries afterwards. It is relatively a very young religion and its unique viewpoints will continue to remain minority viewpoints because they lack sufficient defense.
---lee1538 on 9/28/11


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Naturally no law that existed before Moses can be called a LAW OF MOSES. Just as no law that existed before president Obama took office can be credited to him.
--Francis 9/28
That assumes the title "Law of Moses" is used only to refer to laws he created new and not to laws that already existed and were included in some speaking or works of his. For instance, many parts of the 10 commandments were not created by him and therefore could not be part of the Law of Moses. But more importantly, 1) Do your two groups include all OT commandments, and 2) what is the clear definition of what commandments are included in each of your two groups?
---Rocky on 9/28/11


THIS WHOLE ARGUEMENT IS ABOUT

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

OR

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
---Francis on 9/28/11


Rocky, to learn more about EGW google Ellen G. White, and Ellen White false prophecy
---Rob on 9/28/11


Now, I did show from both the OT and NT that these are two diferent laws.
If you want to understand why the apostles list some OT laws in the NT and say that we do not have to keep others, it has to do with the LAW OF MOSES and THE LAW OF GOD.
Naturally no law that existed before Moses can be called a LAW OF MOSES. Just as no law that existed before president Obama took office can be credited to him.
Tithe being a law in existance before Moses is thus not a law of Moses and is not abolished on the cross
---Francis on 9/28/11


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\\Why on earth do these eager gentiles have to wait NEXT SABBATH? If there were church meeting every sunday\\

Because at that time there was no CHRISTIAN Church there, and St. Paul had to start somewhere.

DUH!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/28/11


francis//Why on earth do these eager gentiles have to wait NEXT SABBATH? If there were church meeting every sunday

Any student of church history should be able to tell you the early Jewish Christians continued in the Mosaic tradition, however, the Gentile church often met in homes and on the first day of the week.

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,...

Church historians even some that are Adventists (Samuele Bacchiocchi) will tell you that sunday worship begin early in the first century.
---lee1538 on 9/28/11


LAW OF MOSES and LAW OF GOD in NT

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

Concerning being circomcised and keeping THE LAW OF MOSES the NT says it is not needed

THEN the bible emphasis again that circumcision is NOT important, But it is important to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

CLEARLY TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF LAWS
---Francis on 9/28/11


Acts 13:42 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
religious proselytes Paul persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God

Why on earth do these eager gentiles have to wait NEXT SABBATH? If there were church meeting every sunday
1: Jews and religious proselytes would NOT be there
2: the gentiles would be asked to meet NEXT SUNDAY or NEXT DAY

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

you mean that they could only hear the word of God on SABBATH, not on sunday
---Francis on 9/28/11


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inquire on the writings of Pope Ellen White... Basically her works upsurp the ministry of the Holy Spirit in leading and guiding the Christain into all truth.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11
Thank you for recommending a source of information and providing a caution about it. I appreciate both.
Rob, since you have such strong objections to using the writings of Pope Ellen White, can you recommend a better source for the same information I inquired about? An internet source would be nice.
---Rocky on 9/27/11


\\Lee, are you aware that mentioning the book "THE GREAT CONTROVERSY" or any of the other writings and teachings of Ellen G. White, who has been proven to be a (FALSE PROPHET) \\

Not only was she a false prophet, but she was a plagiarist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/11


Is Jewish Covenant Gone?

Not according to the New Testament.

Heb 8:8 .... I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
---jerry6593 on 9/28/11


-StrongAxe on 9/27/11
Acts 13 there are three groups of people gather that sabbath. Jews who did not believe, Jews and religious proselytes who belived, and gentiles. What does it say about the NT church when Jews and religious proselytes who believe are worshiping on the sabbath? Then the gentiles asked to hear the gospel NEXT SABBATH, If the early church kept sunday the Jews and religious proselytes would have met NEXT DAY and the text would not have said NEXT SABBATH but next day.

Hhat makes you think sunday is the lord's day? Look at Isaiah 58:13 Mark 2:28 Exodus 20:10

isdaih 66 lets us know that even in heaven there will be sabbath, no need to say how it is observed. That has been stated in many other texts
---Francis on 9/28/11


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SDA's reject CHRIST AND WHAT CHRIST DID ON THE CROSS!
---Rob on 9/27/11
You went from a church that teaches:
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

To a church that teaches:

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
ANd you think that 9/10 in right but 10/10 rejects christ THE CREATOR?
---Francis on 9/28/11


Frances,
The questions I asked you about following specific OT commandments are even more relevant to this thread. You ignored them six times on the other thread, would you please answer them here. Do you still make burnt and sin offering as commanded in OT? Do you still separate yourself for a week from any women that are menstruating, two weeks after her giving birth to a male child? Do you believe in an eye-for-an-eye? Should those who curse God or who work on the Sabbath also be put to death? For those you don't follow because of laws of the land, what are you doing to get the laws of the nation changed to comply with God's laws? Should churchs excommunicate?
---Rocky on 9/27/11


Lee, are you aware that mentioning the book "THE GREAT CONTROVERSY" or any of the other writings and teachings of Ellen G. White, who has been proven to be a (FALSE PROPHET) you are entering entering into HOSTILE TERRITORY regarding the SDA's.

A perfect example is Francis, who talks about keeping the LAW and 10 Commandments, yet Francis is a liar.

From my own personal experience, and from growing up in a SDA home, I know for a fact, the SDA's place EGW above CHRIST, and her teachings above what is written in God's Word.

SDA's reject CHRIST AND WHAT CHRIST DID ON THE CROSS!

Frances will deny these things, which proves Francis is a LIAR!
---Rob on 9/27/11


Francis:

Acts 15:21, 13:42, 13:44 say what they did (based on schedules of the synagogues, which were on "Jewish time"). They are not commandments.

Revelation 1:10 does NOT mention the Sabbath (Saturday), but rather The Lord's Day (Sunday).

Matthew 24:20 does not forbid sabbath travel, but prays travel will not be on the sabbath, as it will not be easy. If you live in Israel now, travelling on the sabbath is a pain because the transport infrastructure shuts down for the day.

Mark 3:4 is a rhetorical question, which Jesus answers by healing on the sabbath.

Isaiah 66:22-23 mentions that sabbaths will be counted, but does not say anything about how they will be observed.
---StrongAxe on 9/27/11


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Rocky //Clearly there should be some simple way to tell which OT commandments apply and which don't.

Having talked to several Seventh Day Adventists, I have learned that the way they tell which OT commandments are applicable to the Christian today is to inquire on the writings of Pope Ellen White. She is their guide to the Scripture much the same as Joseph Smith is to the Mormon church.

In fact, the writings of Ellen White has been declared in their Fundamental Beliefs as "a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction". Basically her works upsurp the ministry of the Holy Spirit in leading and guiding the Christain into all truth.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


//Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the LAW OF MOSES my servant, which I COMMANDED UNTO HIM in Horeb for...

Francis is unable to distinguish whom this is addressed to. The "ye" here is the Jewish nation. God did not command His church to observe the law of Moses. In fact, He even stated -

Gal. 4:4-5But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Also not a favorite set of verses for the legalist Adventists.

Perhaps Francis needs to look up the word 'redeem' to determine the meaning of these verses?
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


---Cluny on 9/27/11
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the L,AW OF MOSES my servant, which I COMMANDED UNTO HIM in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD COMMANDED ME at that time TO TEACH YOU...

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU out of the midst of the fire: Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU to perform, even ten commandments, and HE WROTE them upon two tables of stone.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I SPAKE NOT unto your fathers, NOR COMMANDED THEM..concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: ( so who commanded israel to do this: LAW OF MOSES)
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey MY VOICE, and I will be your God
---Francis on 9/27/11


Samuel //Yes there is a change of the law. But all moral codes established in the OT are still in effect.

Who among the church does not agree with that? But moral law was established long before the law was given.

What the Christian is not subject to is laws that are strictly jewish. Acts 15

Howbeit, you would have a very tough time trying to convince anyone the Sabbath law is a moral law as it was given ONLY to the Jewish nation as a sign of the covenant God made with them at Sinai.

Exodus 31:13 You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you (Israel) throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


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ALL TEN Commandments are in the Nt, including the commandment of the sabbath.
Acts_15:21 Acts_13:42 Acts_13:44 Revelation_1:10
--Frances 9/27/11
But the OT at Ex_35:2 commands we should put to death everyone that works on Sabbath. NONE of the NT citations you give say the Sabbath is holy let alone to put to death those working on the Sabbath. Acts_15:21 only says that the words of Moses were read on the Sabbath. Act_13:42 is about a request to have the law of Moses read on Sabbath. Act_13:44 about people coming to church on Sabbath. Rev_1:10 is about John being in the Spirit on the Lords day. Are you intentionally misleading or do you really just not understand?
---Rocky on 9/27/11


---Cluny on 9/27/11
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the L,AW OF MOSES my servant, which I COMMANDED UNTO HIM in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD COMMANDED ME at that time TO TEACH YOU...

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU out of the midst of the fire: Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU to perform, even ten commandments, and HE WROTE them upon two tables of stone.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I SPAKE NOT unto your fathers, NOR COMMANDED THEM..concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: ( so who commanded israel to do this: LAW OF MOSES)
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey MY VOICE, and I will be your God
---Francis on 9/27/11


Yes there is a change of the law. But all moral codes established in the OT are still in effect. Also all the principals established are still in effec. 2_tim_3:16
Samuel 9/27/11
I agree the 10 commandments are still in effect - at least in the sense that Jesus gave commandments that require even more of us than the 10 commandments. But what's the complete definition of what OT commandments are still in effect - what detailed description can be applied to all cases in the OT to determine which are in effect? Which are the "moral codes" vs. "principals" vs. any others in effect vs. any not in effect. Clearly there should be some simple way to tell which OT commandments apply and which don't.
---Rocky on 9/27/11


Frances,
The questions I asked you about following specific OT commandments are even more relevant to this thread. You ignored them six times on the other thread, would you please answer them here. Do you still make burnt and sin offering as commanded in OT? Do you still separate yourself for a week from any women that are menstruating, two weeks after her giving birth to a male child? Do you believe in an eye-for-an-eye? Should those who curse God or who work on the Sabbath also be put to death? For those you dont follow because of laws of the land, what are you doing to get the laws of the nation changed to comply with God's laws? Should churchs excommunicate?
---Rocky on 9/27/11


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**Francis //Actually there are 2 separate laws LAW OF MOSES (sanctuary laws) and LAW OF GOD (10 commandments.**

This is a distinction the Bible itself does not make.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/11


Ellen G. White learned from the bible Teachers which to follow and why.

John Wesley spoke on following the Ten Commandments and argued against those who said they were done away with.

Martin Luther wrote his short catchesim on the Ten Commandments and how they applied to Christians.

So unless you wish to say these two great church leaders were wrong you have to understand what the true relationship of the law of the OT is to the new.

Paul wrote. Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes there is a change of the law. But all moral codes established in the OT are still in effect. Also all the principals established are still in effec. 2 tim 3:16
---Samuel on 9/27/11


Once we understand and accept that spirtual and carnal cannot be the same. We must appreciate that the two laws are different. Once law contains holy commandments, and the other law contains carnal ordinances.

then we can start to understand why some laws are still in effect ( ON EARTH, since the laws of the sanctuary remain n effect in heaven with Jesus as high priest and christ as sacrifice) and some are not.
---Francis on 9/27/11


Francis:

Jesus and others spoke of the Law and the Prophets. The Law was the name of the first five books of Moses - all of them, NOT just the Ten Commandments.

It all comes down to this: Do you believe we MUST obey the Old Testament Law? If so, and we don't, what are the consequences? If there are none, why worry about it? But if there ARE (i.e. it imperils your salvation), it means that you attempt to justify yourself by keeping it. But that is a futile:

James 2:10
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
---StrongAxe on 9/27/11


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//there are TWO separate laws:

Whenever 'the law' is referred to in the Bible, 'law, is always in the singular tense. If there were more than one law, then we should see the term 'the laws' but we do not.

"Now this is THE Law which Moses set before the sons of Israel, these are the testimonies & the statutes and the ordinances which Moses spoke to the sons of Israel." De. 4:44-45

Note that the law includes testimonies, statutes, and ordinances, they constitute ONE law.

However -

Christ abolished in His flesh the enmity, which is the law of commandments containing in ordinances. Eph. 2:15
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


Is the law of Moses and the law of God the same?

The NT equates the law of Moses as the law of the Lord.

Luke 2:22-24 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

According to Bible Dictionary, the law of Moses "signifies the whole body of Mosaic legislation" (1 Kings 2:3, 2 Kings 23:25, Ezra 3:2). Note that this includes the commandments, ordinances and statutes.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


stroneaxe, cluny, I like your post each talking about only parts of the OT laws being in the NT.
three things about that.
1: Dispite what some say, there are TWO seperate laws: One Law spoken DIRECTLY By God to israel and writen DIRECTLY by God and place INSIDE the ark: called the law of god, and another law called the Law of Moses spoken to moses by God and spoken by MOSES DIRECTLY to isarel, and writen down by Moses placed OUTSIDE the ark
2: the NT speaks of HOLY AND SPIRITUAL COMMANDMENTS (law of God) Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual
2 Peter 2:21 the holy commandment
and CARNAL ORDINANCES (laws of moses)Hebrews 9:10 carnal ordinances,

SPIRITUAL AND CARNAL CANNOT BE THE SAME
---Francis on 9/27/11


--Cluny on 9/26/11
Of the 613 commandments in the bible, many of them fell under THE LAW OF MOSES. The LAW of Moses is the law given to moses by God, and not spoken directly to the children of Israel. These are laws which pertain to the Earthly sanctuary, but do not include Laws which were given before the time of Moses.
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I COMMANDED UNTO HIM in Horeb for all Israel, with the STATUTES AND JUDGMENTS.

ALL TEN Commandments are in the Nt, including the commandment of the sabbath.
Acts 15:21 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Revelation 1:10

SPECIAL ATTENTION SHOULD BE GIVEN TO: Matthew 24:20 Mark 3:4 and Isaiah 66:22-23

---Francis on 9/27/11


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Francis //Actually there are 2 separate laws LAW OF MOSES (sanctuary laws) and LAW OF GOD (10 commandments.

And POPE Ellen White tells you which OT laws are still applicable. The rest of us have to walk by faith depending upon the Lord's Spirit to guide us.

And they quote Matthew 5:18 -

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled in support of their view that the church is still under OT laws.

But since the earth has not passed away, Jesus only partially fulfilled the law on our behalf, we are still under selected OT laws.

Poor us little sheep must follow Jesus instead of the law.
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


"Rather, as reasoning adults, we should be able to tell whether any action is appropriate or not, based on whether it hurts our neighbor or not."
---StrongAxe on 9/26/11

Reasoning? No scripture for. A Kingdom/marriage cannot stand divided. Many, have learned from, an adopted a better way. Some not realizing why, few realizing.
Same laws...a different place.

Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 9/27/11


-StrongAxe on 9/26/11
This is a great deception to think that as christians we no longer need a list of do's and don't. FOr example the NT says:
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Clearly we no longer have to be circumcised, but we have to keep the commandmenst of God. I choose this one with commandmenst of God, as a counter point to those who say Jesus only gave us two.

Actually there are two seperate laws LAW OF MOSES ( sanctuary laws) and LAW OF GOD ( ten commandments)see blog "Is Grace Unconditional" for a partial desciption
---Francis on 9/27/11


there is no such thing as a "jewish covenant" that is a term used by lying false ministers who HATE the jewish nation of Israel

the "JEWS" are the tribe of Judah ...one simply looks ignorant when they seek to incessantly repeat the LIES of ignorant false ministers!

The Jewish nation is the tribe of Judah which is one of 12 tribes of Israel ...THIS tribe was the one Christ was working before he became the Savior of mankind

NT made it "crystal clear" tithing is STILL in effect
---Rhonda on 9/27/11


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Mark 3:24: "And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand."
1Corinthians 1:13: "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
Of course lee1538, you belong to "the children of the promise given to Abraham " group?
Others claimed the exclusive also, John 8:33 "... We be Abraham's seed...".

"Rather, as reasoning adults, we should be able to tell whether any action is appropriate or not, based on whether it hurts our neighbor or not."
---StrongAxe on 9/26/11
Suppose he/she is a masochist?
Matthew 15:19-20, what is wrong is already spelled out. Even we should love as he, not as we may think (John 13:34).
---Nana on 9/27/11


//Jews had to refrain from murder and adultery and theft and perjury because those were part of the Ten Commandments, and part of the law.

Did not other societies have laws against murder, adultery, theft, etc.? Was there not a universal sense of what was moral and immoral?
---lee1538 on 9/27/11


StrongAxe, Matthew 22:37,39 reads 'Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."' and "Love your neighbor as yourself."

He said all the Law and the prophets are summed up by these two commands. We are not saved by obedience to the Law, (thank the Lord) but by grace, through faith, alone. As we now have the Law written on our hearts and in our minds we know that we must not live in rebellion against the Law.

So I believe you are correct that we must not do anything which violates "Love your neighbour..." And I would add neither should we do anything which violates "Love the Lord your God..."
---Warwick on 9/27/11


Reconciled,Redeemed, everlasting,betroth and for-ever marry with your posted scripture.
---Trav on 9/26/11

Trav
I see you also have an understanding of that parable.
Most never take the time to notice that Jesus gave the preventative measure with the wineskins, but did not tell us the type of patch one uses to fix an old garment....that being the key to understanding the parable.
---David on 9/27/11


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Francis:

Jews had to refrain from murder and adultery and theft and perjury because those were part of the Ten Commandments, and part of the law. As Christians, we are no longer under the law. However, we refrain from murder and adultery and theft and perjury anyway, because to do those things would violate "love your neighbor as yourself".

We no longer need a long laundry list of hundreds of "dos" and "don'ts", as children do. Rather, as reasoning adults, we should be able to tell whether any action is appropriate or not, based on whether it hurts our neighbor or not.
---StrongAxe on 9/26/11


Nana //is the church divided?

YES!

Differences have always characterized the Christian church from its very conception.

First there was the problem of food discrimination between the Hellenist Jews and Hebrew Jews Acts 6.

Then when Gentiles became converted, there was the battle on whether Gentiles had to observe circumcision and the law of Moses in order to be legit. Acts 15

The latter problem remains today between the children of the promise given to Abraham and those of the children of Hagar (the legalists) from Mt. Sinai. Gal. 4:24f

And then we have the divisions among Romanists, and other Christians.
---lee1538 on 9/26/11


\\Do you think the one about adultery has gone away
Do you think the one about murder has gone away?
Do you think the one about honouring parents have gone away?
---Francis on 9/26/11\\

But these were reiterated in the New.

Many others of the 613, including the Sabbath commandment, were not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/11


//Either ALL the Law has passed away or NONE of it. You can't pick and choose.

I rather doubt you can say that moral law common to all societies was done away with by Christ. Scripture does NOT make any distinction as to different types of laws.

Howbeit, we have no righteousness that can come from the law as for the Christian, our righteousness is in Christ.

1 Cor. 1:30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

And this is one of the major problems found within Adventism i.e. their belief that grace is merely that provision which enables one to earn eternal salvation.
---lee1538 on 9/26/11


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Paul was not hindered by any such dictum as "ALL the Law has passed away or NONE of it. You can't pick and choose."
when he voiced: Ephesians 6:2: "Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandment with promise,)"
Again, paul was speaking of an old an existing vine, unto which gentiles get grafted. Do we have different Gods or,
is the church divided?
---Nana on 9/26/11


Either ALL the Law has passed away or NONE of it. You can't pick and choose.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/11
useless post
Do you think the one about adultery has gone away
Do you think the one about murder has gone away?
Do you think the one about honouring parents have gone away?
---Francis on 9/26/11


\\No, tithing has not gone away.\\

Then the commandments for women not to sleep in their husband's beds during their periods and going outside the city with a shovel to relieve yourself have not gone away, either.

Either ALL the Law has passed away or NONE of it. You can't pick and choose.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/11


//No, tithing has not gone away.Only covenants made by blood.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

When did the New Covenant actually begin?

But tithing is an Old Covenant command and was something that was used to support the temple and the Levitical priesthood. So how could tithing be applicable to the Christian today?

Anybody with any common sense would realize that the system is totally inequitable as for a successful dentist, it is a necessary tax deduction while for a welfare recipient it is food off the table.
---lee1538 on 9/26/11


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No, tithing has not gone away.
Only covenants made by blood.
Covenats not made by blood, such as the " rainbow covenant" are not gone away.
---Francis on 9/26/11


I heard this from a very anointed teacher of God's word and never have forgotten it.

"When you are in love with Jesus, and are abidinig in Him, the Ten Commandments become Ten Promises."

Jesus said, "If you love me, you'll obey me" and since Jesus always existed, and He is the WORD, (even the OT word) then we flow in the Love of the Holy Spirit, fall in LOVE with the Word of God and it's easy to live it out and do what it says to do Obey can be a very hard thing to do but not when you're in love, amen?
---Donna5535 on 9/26/11


The OT concealed the NT, and the NT revealed the concealment of the OT. It was none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

From time-beginning God revealed Himself through His covenants with Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David and finally Jesus Christ, of which Matthew 1:21 declares,

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." and Jesus confirmed in Mark 14:24, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." And this is to fulfill the promise by God in Jeremiah 32:38, "And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

None of God's covenant was broken or will be broken.
---christan on 9/26/11


(Matthew 9:16)
No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse."

Did Jesus intend to fix the Old garment, or to throw the Old garment away and get a New Garment?
If this was the intention, why didn't Jesus say this in the parable?
---David on 9/24/11

Ha. Ur outta the church box David...you're not supposed to think, find or seek on your own. Your supposed to just join the wide way.

Reconciled,Redeemed, everlasting,betroth and for-ever marry with your posted scripture.
---Trav on 9/26/11


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Paul, you didn't specify which people you were referring to. If a believer already, then all of what James L said is true. If you are talking about unbelievers then the Law is very much in effect. The unbelievers are under the Law and the reason they are condemned already and in great need of Christ.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God" John 3:18.
That is why it is so important for those under the Law to commit to Christ by faith. Only those of the elect will come to Christ by the God given faith to believe in the begotten Son of God. For only He (the Father) can reveal Him.
---Mark_V. on 9/25/11


if still under some of the old, i am dead and doomed. i cannot do it all.

otoh, there are those who claim new covenant but still insist on water baptism and other religious ceremony and charismatic experience based on the past or a limited interpretation of some of Jesus' word.
---aka on 9/25/11


The Jews had a religious law that rules/ordinances and commandments must be obeyed,...Ephesians 2:15 "by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and ordinances".

The Jews were baptized into MOSES...1 Corinthians 10:2 "and all were baptized into Moses".

The Jews worshipped PHYSICALLY at the holy mountain or at "Jerusalem" temples, but we are the TRUE WORSHIPPERS that shall worship SPIRITUALLY (in SPIRIT and truth).

John 4:24 "God is SPIRIT, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth".

In the divine sense, the ancient peoples were either God's chosen or they were OF GREEK CIVILIZATION. IN JESUS, there is "neither Jew nor Greek" (Gal. 3:28).
---more_excellent_way on 9/24/11


(Matthew 9:16)
No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse."

If Unshrunk cloth was not the way to fix the Old Garment(Old Covenant), what kind of cloth was needed to fix it?
Did Jesus intend to fix the Old garment, or to throw the Old garment away and get a New Garment?
If this was the intention, why didn't Jesus say this in the parable?
---David on 9/24/11


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Things of history can have a way of working together with what God knows is true in His word. And in our lives emotional trouble and relationship bad judgment can be because we are not doing what God knows His word means. But why pick on tithing? (c: lololololol I notice the Jews do not obviously practice the animal sacrifices that are commanded, and do not practice the capital punishments that are in the Law of Moses. Paul says, "not even those who are circumcised keep the law," in Galatians 6:13. But the Law has helped to expose sin, in order to bring people to Christ (Romans 7:7, Galatians 3:19-25). So, God's use has not vanished.
---Bill_willa6989 on 9/24/11


The OLD Covenant is fullfilled by Jesus in the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is STILL God's word, and He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever.

Tithing is God's word. In the Old Testament we are told to tithe 10%. In the New Testament we are told to Give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and runneth over. I challenge anyone to give God 10% ore more of your income and "stand by and see the salvation of God" and what He will do for you if you Obey His Word. GIVE folks, God loves a cheerful giver!
---Donna5535 on 9/24/11


So JamesL, do you not agree with the morals taught in the old testament? How do they differ from the new testament?
---Jed on 9/24/11


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