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Prosperity Preachers Message

Do the prosperity preachers preach discontentment.

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 ---Hugh on 9/24/11
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Eloy: These 'luxuries' must have existed, I think, from before we had electronics - for the church (since the Bible about 'things earthly') has been warning us to think of God ONLY

I have never heard a 'prosperity preacher', so I did not even know they existed till I saw this blog - I must feel happy!
---Peter on 5/4/12


Peter, A-men. He has a limit. He says that we are to be setting our sites on things above, and not the things (and creature comforts and toys) of earth, for where our treasure is there will our heart be also. All the electronic gizmos they come out with are all unecessary fads. Jesus is not impressed by all these things, they are a waste of time, and also many accidents have happened because of this foolishness of having a cell phone foolisly planted on the side of their head which diverts from their driving, rather than focusing on their driving at the time.
---Eloy on 5/4/12


Hello! bro.Eloy you are correct,you know I can't watch TV (got rid it last year) but,gett'n "smitten with so,much same stuff you say via my radio & the mails.I am get letters ask'n for up to $50 - $600 they ask me to send! All televangelists well known. One popular "outspoken female" televangelist...She send me stuff everyday! It all reads the same...If I send'm cash right away my healing on the way! I don't send $ no more. "God is sovereign.he heals and also,we die" someone wrote that on a blogg & apologize.. can't recall who, wrote it,but I like it! It's reality,we cannot dictate & command God...It's him who made us and not ourselves.
---ELENA on 5/3/12


Redeemed: 'I believe that prosperity is Gods will for all Christians'. I feel the passage you quote: all these things will be added unto you.... We must be careful:

HOW many things does God actually want us to have. The things we have now make us, in many ways, more 'prosperous' than most kings 2000 years ago.

It is true God wants us to have enough that we are not in a constant battle to get enough to eat - but, as an example - does that also include an ipad for everyone?

I feel God may have a limit - or am I being silly?
---Peter on 5/3/12


I haven't heard them preach discontentment, only,
"name it and claim it", and
"blab it and grab it".
---Eloy on 5/3/12




Hey,let's go bk to how God provided since Genesis..ch.1:27,28,29,/Gen.2(whole chap.2) Gen.3:2-8Chapter 3 man & his helpmate (woman) the trouble starts... Man always been "greedy!"....He gave Adam the best of life and Adam and Eve ch.3:1-19. The life of Adam,change drastically becuz of their disobedience! after his listening to Eve their way would be hard (see Ch.3:16-19....vs.22-23 they were banished from the garden. So,my point we ought be thankfull whatever provisions God has given us! Prosperity means to me be satisfied,be gratefull,be thankfull...if you got your health & strength,roof over your head,clothes,etc...don't store up treasures on earth just so,thief mt.6:19,mt.6:21
---ELENA on 5/2/12


I believe that prosperity is Gods will for all Christians.In my opinion this do not mean every worldly possession will be yours.It means that "seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all this things will be added to you"(Matt.6:33). In the book of Romans 14:1-4 Paul tells them not to judge one another.For one man's faith allows him to eat all things while anothers faith only allow him to eat vegetables. The man who eats everything must not condemn the one who eats vegetables, and the one who eats vegetables must not condemn the one who eats everything, "For God has accepted Him" Lets remember that contentment is in the heart of the believer not the sermon.
---Redeemed_By_His_Blood on 12/9/11


Their problem is that in the NT,both in the Gospels and Acts, we do not see any 'prosper' in worldly terms. The apostles loved as poor, as did Paul.

If the preacher preaches prosperity in worldly terms, he must explain why He who started the church was poor, as were His first disciples!
---Peter on 12/1/11


hello!Jed 9/29/11 wonderfull brother what you said 'n a real truth! People here or where ever complain about what they lack...truth is a heart issue!thankfull,every minute of each day! When I think about how good God hasbeen to me down thru the yrs. Can only be gratefull,b.cancer and also,do near everything for myself! Bless all..
---ELENA on 11/20/11


Seriously, thats what i meant that nobody can be cnontent if there's no hope for the future. on the other hand i've been poor overseas as well, and i'll tell you GOD can do all for us we KEEP THE HOPE. and yes many people who are satisfied with all tend to forget the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
---andy3996 on 10/3/11




Andy, you reminded me of something I experience when I first committed my life to Christ. I belonged to a Spanish speaking church, and there, the prayers of those were for very needed things. A job, food, someone real sick and they were illigal and didn't have much money. And at work I heard prayers that to me were not as serious as those from my church. The reason the prayers were different was because at my church they were low income, and at work they were middle class. Yet to God all prayers are serious. And as a person has more, their prayers are still serious. I just didn't see that at the time. I do now. All prayers no matter where you are from or come from are serious to God. We all ask differently depending in our need.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/11


Andy, I never knew you lived across the ocean before you lived in Africa. If you know what it's like here, you should also know the difference of what we call poor here and what is poor in Africa. Sure, people here are complaining of what they don't have, and not thank God for what they do have, but the need in Africa is much higher then for us. Here people have a lot of help. There, there is little help. Here, many get things for free from many people who have, there many people who have don't always share what they have. Even food sent there from here is many times stolen by groups who have power, and then sold in the black market. So it is very much different there then here, that was my point. Nothing else.
---Mark_V. on 10/2/11


1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
---Bruce5656 on 9/24/11

This verse covers it.
Visited with a preacher who said he would vote for evil just to get his immigration documents signed into the US!

2 Peter 2:3
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

John 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence, make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
---Trav on 9/30/11


Andy, Yes, I think we are seeing eye to eye.
---Jed on 9/30/11


So Jed, bassically we say the same in a different way. How many times discussions start because we misunderstood eachother.
we all agree we shouldn't be discontent in a way that e sin, and we all agree that we shouldn't be satisfied with our low state. sio happines is in this be content where you are, work to advance
Ps. someone mentioned me being in Africa, i' lived at both sides of the Ocean, man is the same everywhere. (sinful hatefull opressing etcetera.
---andy3996 on 9/30/11


Andy, StrongAxe, I would never suggest that it is wrong to hope and believe for more blessing to come. What is a sin is to not recognize the blessings you already have and then complain about how small they are. My point is that incontentment is a heart issue, not a wallet issue. If you don't thank God for the little, then you will not thank Him for the lot. Therefore, there is no more guilt in a rich man comlaining than a poor man. I don't think it pleases God when we have a heart that will only thank him in the good times.
---Jed on 9/29/11


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Jed:

I never said that you shouldn't be thankful - I was just saying that it's no sin to also not want to eat out of dumpsters.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/11


Jed, i did not disagree with you but the content without hope do not exist, that was MY point. i was poor myself, and still i have nothing. but i'm content because the Lord gives me hope, I hope that alls well that ends well, because in Christ i know that tomorow will be a brand new day. that's what i'm talking about
Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. you sounded like "o be happy that god blessed you with all this horrible things"
which is impossible because GOD IS GOOD and no bad can come from God
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man
---andy3996 on 9/29/11


along with a bumber of so called born again ,or saved most people today have no idea what real wealth is.
---tom2 on 9/29/11


Andy, I believe because you live in Africa and see a lot of poverty, you see things much different then how we see them here. So you give your opinions from your perspective. Your own point of view. What you are missing is that you do not see things from God's view. I believe that most of what Jed is saying is from God's point of view. I grew up poor too. But here there is opportunities not found where you live. There is jobs people don't want to do. Many are very educated and do not want to get lower. They worked so hard to get their education, they feel they cannot go lower. This are hard times for us here, in our view, but from your perspective we are in heaven already because of the conditions there. We are to thank God on all things.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/11


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How much has America sent things and money to third world countries only to have the heads of their country to confiscate it for themselves? Third world countries are rich in natural resources but don't do anything with them. I was raised poor also. We ate dried beans and potatoes everyday. Dad and mom worked in the cotton mill and raised 5 children. We were never without food or shelter.
---shira4368 on 9/28/11


StrongAxe, Andy, I know what it is like to be poor. I grew up in a very poor family. We got our food, if any, out of dumpsters, and we thanked God for it. We were homeless at times. Many times we did not have food to eat. But we thanked God that we were alive. I did not write the verse that says "In all things give thanks". All things includes even bad things. We should always have a grateful heart to God, you disagree? What does it mean to trust God? If we can not be faithful with a little, we will not be faithful with alot. If we are not grateful with a little, not even the world will satisfy us.
---Jed on 9/28/11


Jed
now i know your talking rubbish just to make a point. it is exactely this mentality that has created the refugee problems. nobody can sit home and starve to death content. at the same time the rich west wishes to keep the poor 3rd world where it is. real contentment can only come when you work eat and suffer to receive an advantage and a development in life. if your children can go to scjhool and whenn there is HOPE for the future,then a man can be content with little.
---andy3996 on 9/28/11


Jed:

If you make $5 a month, you might be in a position to tell someone else to be happy with the same. But if you make substantially more, saying that is the moral equivalent of a rich man eating filet mignon, and complaining that homeless people should be satisfied eating bread crumbs.
---StrongAxe on 9/28/11


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andy3996, $20,000/year is considered a low salary in America, but it's enough to meet your needs and even some luxuries, even for a family of 4 people. As for the man that only got $5 a month. Not only should he not complain, he should thank God for it. He should even thank God if he didn't even get $1 a month. Perhaps this is why he still only gets $5 a month.

"Give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus." -1 Thessalonian 5:18
---Jed on 9/28/11


Jed, i had a friend over who complained he earned 5 dollars a month, would that be greedy? (5 dollars is little even in Africa) i do not know what is the standard of life in the US, but honnestly a pastor complaining about 20.000 a year is that salary concidered big average or small? i know that in Europe an average salary is about 1800 euro,(would be about 2200dollars a month) so someone ghetting 1200 is poor and doesnt meet needs end. is it greed to ghet tired about it and complain? Proverbs 30:8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches, feed me with food convenient for me:... i agree that the example of the congreswoman is greed but not every complaint is de factum an act of greedyness.
---andy3996 on 9/28/11


If all believers were speaking for the real Truth, they would not speak for any denomination or any Church teachings. The Truth should be our most important goal. RCC's speak for the RCC. SDA's for the SDA's, Mormons for Mormons, Jehovah witnesses for Jehovah witnesses, Pentacostals for Word of Faith teachers and so it goes with everyone. In all this the Truth is lost. Our goal should be the Truth and nothing else. For at the judgment those others will not be their to save our souls whichever Judgment seat we go to. I know it's hard to do that since most have been brought up by one of those teachings, but the real Truth is what is most important goal. The pride for a denomination is so powerful, but we are after the Truth. Speak for the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 9/28/11


StrongAxe, I understand what you're saying. But even in today's job market, Surely there is some job they can find. A great job for someone in your condition would be telemarketing. I did it for 6 months and it required no standing, so you wouldn't even have to have legs. I know what it is like to be laid off, It happened to me and I had a hard time finding a job, so I started thinking of things I could do myself to make money. I started with $200 and 3 1/2 years later I own a successful business. I actually created my own job when I couldn't find one. I think we are getting off topic though. My original point was that you don't have to be rich to be greedy. Any incontentment is greed, no matter how much you make.
---Jed on 9/27/11


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Jed:

There are also many people who aren't even on the unemployment statistics because either their unemployment ran out, or they are otherwise ineligible to receive unemployment insurance (for example, by working in fields where they don't have "regular jobs", so they had no paperwork to substantiate their income).

Also, some people just couldn't hold down a McDonald's job. For example, I couldn't do so, because they require a large amount of standing, and I am unable to stand for hours at a time without severe pain - however, I CAN stand well enough that I don't qualify for being disabled, which would entitle me to special accomodations.
---StrongAxe on 9/27/11


StrongAxe, there are still alot of jobs for people that are really interested in working hard. McDonalds' help wanted sign is always on out. The reason why the unemployment rate is so high is that many who are laid off actually get more in unemloyment than they would from working at a low paying job. It's not that they can't find a job, it's that they can't find a job comporable to the one they had, or in the field they are looking. Also, many welfare checks are higher than a minimum wage pay check, so why not just stay home?
---Jed on 9/27/11


may the Lord bless you all..my self "sour" on t.v.and prosperity message!Yes! I admit my faults(not good 'n last decisions/finances) husband gone...anyway,the prosperity message not truth..I did long ago some type seed'n mountain thing..you give out of your need they say! You give,give & No!You may be 'n trouble! Not odds of getting back! Total untruth! I learn be happy as the Lord provides..thank jesus! since on my own..I never been homeless...I am content with not alot. I desire stay humble & don't send no $ more to them.I give to the American Veterans & paralyzed Veterans / local churches outreaches to the poor.
---ELENA on 9/27/11


Yea, they teach you will be rich, happy everyday and successful IF you send them money.
---shira4368 on 9/27/11


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Jed:

It is oh so very easy to talk to an unemployed person and condescendingly say "Get a job". There are many in this economy who have tried for a long time, but few are hiring.

Remember, Jesus said we would have the poor with us always. He did not preach to the poor to "get a job" - rather, he multiplied loaves and fishes to feed them.

It is like a joke I heard years ago:

A woman is walking down the street, and a man comes up to her, saying "Lady, I haven't eaten in three days!", to which she replied "Force yourself!".
---StrongAxe on 9/27/11


Prosperity teachers don't only teach prospering financially, but every area of your life, your mind, your will, your emotions, your physical healings, emotional healing, etc.,
*****

Donna I agree 100% true prosperity TEACHERS have message ALL people should embrace because it is LIES sold from false christianity brainwash many into underachieving in life making little money demanding handouts - in reality this self destructive mindset destroys EVERY area of ones life

what I don't agree with are prosperity "preachers" those like Joel Osteen who USE GOD as their guise ...quote "prosperity type" scriptures to KEEP their not-for profit status YET have zero TRUTH IN CHRIST
---Rhonda on 9/27/11


I have long been disturbed by those who teach the prosperity doctrine-come to Jesus and get rich-as it is spiritually crippling when it doesn't happen. Its whole emphasis is wrong, and unbiblical.

NonethelesGod has blessed me in many ways including financially.

Having visited many impoverished countries I see nothing Godly in the sight of children in rags picking through garbage bins for food.

On the other hand the worship of money, and the hoarding of it is equally horrible as it appears to destroy such people in different ways.

I also know very wealthy Christians who are very generous with their money. I have seen them become richer, physically and spiritually because of their compassion and generosity.
---Warwick on 9/27/11


StrongAxe, in that case I would say first, thank God for what you do have. Second, get a job. Even the most humble salary is enough to provide basic necessities if you make good choices and have your priorities straight and don't buy things you want. I grew up very poor as a child, was homeless a few times, my mom never complained or blamed someone else. She never even took welfare because she believed in responsibility. We may have poor and not had everything we wanted, but we all lived, it's all about priorities. She taught us to always thank God for what we had, even if the meal we were eating came from a dumpster.
---Jed on 9/26/11


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Jed:

If your salary is not enough for you to pay for a place to live, and for food for you and your family, and other things that we consider necessities of life (electricity, water, heat, clothing, transportation to/from work and school, etc.), is it wrong to be anxious?

If you worry about being homeless, or not being able to afford medical care for your kids, or worrying that your kids will be taken away from you by CPS and put into foster care because you can't afford the minimum things that society expects from parents?
---StrongAxe on 9/26/11


God does bless, God does prosper, heal and more. A problem as I see it is when one seeks the blessing and NOT the Blesser. Then it is idolatry.
---chria9396 on 9/26/11


reading all the bloggs i can see that most of us are confused. yet i believe that
a preacher preaching prosperity in Christ is not the same as prosperity teachers. there should be a very clear line made between both, and however every preacher has the obligation to preach about biblical prosperity, i think the question was rather about the faux who do preach exaggerated bible doctrines to milk the cow. excuse me my rudeness
---andy3996 on 9/26/11


God never promised me riches. He promised to take care of His children and He has done that. I know people who work hard and don't have much then I know some who don't do anything and are wealthy. God never promised prosperity or wealth. He gave some wealth and others no wealth. I once heard a preacher say," the more you give the more you get and if you don't believe that, just look at me." He was wealthy and I know how he got a lot of his wealth.
---shira3877 on 9/26/11


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Amazing and encouraging to find so many likeminded on this blog-topic. I have witnessed many a heartache over this desire to become prosperous and disease free in the name of Christianity. There is a much greater joy in the Lord that is so void of money and good health. Some times when sickness and poverty come people are the most faithful and content. Having a high salary is often only a greater responsibility and not some big happy meal deal. The grass always seems to look greener on the other side. God is not a slot machine where we pull the lever and keep our fingers crossed hoping for the double portion/next blessing.
---Poppa_Bear on 9/26/11


mike, I agree that congresswoman was greedy for complaining about her $600,000 salary. But anyone who complains about their salary is greedy, including those who make only $20,000. Discontentment is a sin, no matter how rich or poor. Why do you say that pastors excuse their sin of being rich? Being rich is not a sin.
---Jed on 9/26/11


I agree with MJ..."
I dont think so.I think what they are preaching is the practice of faith and obedience to God.When we give our tithe,our focus should be not on the preacher but on the word of God regarding tithing..."

Also christians seem to lose common sense when it comes to everyday life for some reason. God never intended for us to be poor. (2ndCorinthians 8:9, Deut. 8:18)

The wealth of the wicked is laid up for us.(Prov. 13:22)

They don't preach discontentment. When Paul said that he learned to be content notice he mentioned being prosperous and in lack.
(Philippians 4:10-13)

Prosperity in Christ is a promise from God, but we are to always remember Who blesses us.(Deut. 8:18, Philippians 4:13)
---Rickey on 9/26/11


Philippians 4:13 says, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

In the context he was showing that he knows how to be content because Christ strengthens him to.

He didn't knock prosperity. Amplified verse 12 says, "I know how to be abased and live humbly in straitened circumstances, and I know also how to enjoy plenty and live in abundance...."

We are to enjoy the plenty when we are blessed by our Father. The blessing of the Lord makes us rich and adds no sorrow to it.(Proverbs 10:22)
---Rickey on 9/26/11


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but do christianity preach poverty & misery?

I have heard non-prosperity preachers preach about contentment. if you are being paid $11.00 / hr BE CONTENTED.
I have heard another priest say BLESSED ARE THE POOR
how can you keep up with inflation?

yet you see them drive around in luxury cars & live in mansions.
I googled dr charles stanley salary:
its $300,000/ year

just give your 10% & it will rain money.

NOW that is what you call HYPOCRISY not christianity.
---mike on 9/26/11


prosperity preacher preach DISCONTENMENT?

when a pastor or pastors make $100,000 / year or more are they contented with $40,000/year?
they defend their SIN that they should be paid 'WELL'. how much is 'WELL' the bible is VAGUE about it.
like that GOP congressman who says 'my $600,000 /year salary will be reduced to $400,000 after I feed my family.

that is not discontentment THAT'S GREED
---mike on 9/26/11


Beloved I wish above all that thou mayest prosper and be in good health EVEN AS your soul prospers.

Do you consider that a prosperity teaching? It's in scripture.

As your mind, will and emotions prosper and heal, so will everything else in your life prosper..this isn't referring to money.

Prosperity teachers don't only teach prospering financially, but every area of your life, your mind, your will, your emotions, your physical healings, emotional healing, etc.,
---Donna5535 on 9/26/11


Such preachers are like SALES people:

* You need a better car. Today!

* Your house needs re-decorating. Let us do the work!

* You can improve your career by enrolling now!

* Solidify your financial future with our guaranteed investment tools!

* Find the entertainment that is missing from your life. Here!

Satan, the Devil, visits us in every way possible: through your own Friends, Preachers, Sales Advertisements, Bad Social Clubs, etc.

I believe that we allow ourselves to be led down the road of feeling discontent about things. We need to decide when it is time to say NO and walk away.

We must be "on guard" or we'll find ourselves in another trap. Maybe sin too.
---Sag on 9/26/11


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No they do not preach discontentment outwardly.

Instead they preach a message of prosperous life VOID of GOD

They toss in a few Scriptures for good measure so they can KEEP their not-for-profit-church-y-status

It looks good and smells good to the masses who want the idea of "do-good" and obviously "look -good" they can show off they attend some church however they are deceived into believing they are following Christ

in the end the love of their showy false minister and the false message the minister brings may allow a prosperous financial life yet discontentment will follow at some point WITHOUT GOD
---Rhonda on 9/26/11


I dont think so.I think what they are preaching is the practice of faith and obedience to God.When we give our tithe,our focus should be not on the preacher but on the word of God regarding tithing
---mj on 9/26/11


aka, "no. preachers do not preach discontentment. they preach a contentment that ends in discontentment." That's exactly what I've been thinking. I try not to listen to such teachings/preachings, but have seen some slip in here and there with various prachers. 1 I am particularly concerned about being vulnerable to such. We need to be in prayer.
---chria0306 on 9/26/11


no. preachers do not preach discontentment. they preach a contentment that ends in discontentment.
---aka on 9/25/11


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Yes: Paul says I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. Prosperity teachers are dangerous twisting the word of God for their own ends.
---Hugh on 9/25/11


Nope! They teach greed and false doctrine. They teach self-promotion more than anything else.
---KarenD on 9/25/11


1 JOHN 2,15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
---RICHARDC on 9/25/11


No I don't believe such preaching brings discontentment. The basis of the teaching is sound Biblical teaching. 2 Corinthians 9:Remember this whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly,and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. What is wrong with the preachers teaching is the part where he says send me a $1000.00 and you will get your harvest. Most people who fall for this are not greedy but needy. Looking for a way to improve their lot in life. Our giving must be to God,led by God,and to the needy not preachers. It is the law of sowing and reaping which affects not only money but every facet of life in all ways of giving.
---Darlene_1 on 9/25/11


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1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
---Bruce5656 on 9/24/11


Oh, that could be. But Hebrews 13:5 says, "be content with such things as you have". And Paul says there is the "great gain" of being content with "food and clothing" with godliness 1 Timothy 6:6-8) > "And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content." (1 Timothy 6:8) So, preachers of this Biblical prosperity are not preaching discontentment.
---Bill_willa6989 on 9/24/11


I'm not sure what your question,means, but these prosperity preacherd do preach to the heart of the discontent. (with normal church)
---andy3996 on 9/24/11


Some are easily swayed by what they see on tv. Tv preachers are hoping their audience is discontented, otherwise, they wouldn't get millions in the mail for such trash as prayer cloths and other such nonsense. I have never seen a real preacher charge for praying for someone. It is shocking to see how much these false prophets earn deceiving people.
---shira3877 on 9/24/11


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They preach something that Jesus didnt. If this world is not my home, why strive to get riches and weigh my soul down with earthly treasure? I am not starving by any means, but I will not break my back, or beg god to shower me with money. The grace He shows me every day is priceless. The fact He saved a retch like me is almost preposterous, LOL. Remember the two parables about the pearl and the field of treasure? The men sold everything for them, that is how I want to think about the kingdom of heaven. I seem to have a giving spirit and try to be wise in giving, and God has continued to make away for me to help many and not focus on my pockets, Amen.
---Poppa_Bear on 9/25/11


Cluny, all sin is deadly to those under the Law. That is why they are condemned already and need Christ.

Prosperity preachers are out to make money. Twisting Scripture to accomplish their own agenda. They live a wealthy lives, at the expense of the poor. Many older woman are their followers and give more to them then they give to anyone else. I believe many started with a good cause, but money corrupted their minds. Most come from the same school, for most speak of the same things and use the same tactics, their blasphemy of the Word of God they will have to answer to one day.
---Mark_V. on 9/25/11


They do appeal to human greed, which has always been considered one of the 7 deadly sins.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/11


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