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Do Saved People Sin

Do "saved" people sin? If so, were they REALLY "saved"?

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 ---jerry6593 on 10/2/11
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Haz, in reality, as I have stated, I believe both lawlessness and unbelief are sin. Whether the Law is on tablets of stone or in our hearts and on our minds changes nothing. If we believe God then we will not live a life contrary to His moral law.

BTW you seem to have an aversion to answering questions, as others have commented.

For example: "you are contradicting yourself. You have previously insisted that once saved a Christian cannot sin. But now you say a Christian can sin."

"Which is it?"

You say you say we can break any of the 10 Commandments because we are not under Law.

Is this so?

Unwillingness to answer questions indicates you cannot answer.
---Warwick on 10/6/11


"So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law, but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" Romans 7:21-24.

Paul is saying that in his mind he is in tune with the Spirit, but his flesh, is sinful.

Of course the Holy Spirit does not lead us into sin.

As he says in 7:17 "it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me."

Aren't we all the same?
---Warwick on 10/6/11


Eloy: It's time you learned the meaning of 'sinuous.'

sinuous & #8194, & #8194,[sin-yoo-uhs] Show IPA
adjective
1. having many curves, bends, or turns, winding: a sinuous path.
2. indirect, devious: sinuous questions.
3. characterized by a series of graceful curving motions: a sinuous dance.
4. Botany . sinuate, as a leaf.

Stop using this word incorrectly. I think you want the word 'sinful.'
---Trish on 10/6/11


Of course saved people sin, but their sins are the more subtle sins by ones more advanced in the light, sins of the NT like anger rather than OT sins like murder and adultery. Committing a major OT sin like adultery is likely evidence that one was not saved to start with. However more advanced souls walking in the light can reach a state of sanctification wherein they no longer sin.
---Rocky on 10/6/11


Francis, you're like the many Jews who look at the Sabbath as the day. When will it get into your hardened heart that the Sabbath given by God was merely a shadow of the Sabbath that was to come. He came in the flesh and His name is Jesus Christ.

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." Mark 2:27,28

The Scripture is complete! Whatever God wants the man to know, He has revealed it through His prophets, apostles and finally Jesus Christ, in the Scriptures He has so graciously given to His people.
---christan on 10/6/11




Francis, Nana & Warwick:
It seems you believe sin is ONLY transgression of the law (1John3:4).
But what of:
Sin of unbelief (John16:9)?
Blasphemy of Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29)?

And regarding the law:
Rom 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death."

Rom 3:19 "whatever the law says, it says to those who are UNDER the law"

1 Tim 1:9 "the law is NOT MADE for a righteous person (Christians), but for the...ungodly and for sinners"

Rom 4:15 "where there is no law there is no transgression (sin)".

Do you deny these scriptures?




---Haz27 on 10/6/11


Warwick, Francis, Nana:
You have been on CN long enough to know of the difficulties in getting a message across and understood, especially when preconceived beliefs get in the way.
You guys have misunderstood what I have said.

You have seen the many scriptures saying Christians CANNOT sin. What I have been trying to show is in Christ there is NO SIN and our life is HID WITH CHRIST in God (Col 3:3). Jesus set us free from sin (John8:36) and those born of God (1John5:1) CANNOT sin (1John3:9)

How do you think God sees Christians? Are you a sinner OR righteous?
---Haz27 on 10/6/11


Eloy,

First, thanks for the capital "B".

Your reply describes how backsliders sin. That is a forgone conclusion since sinning is what makes them a backslider.

You said that a saved person cannot sin.

and

You said a backslider is one who has "left their first love, namely, Christ, and have substituted sin for Christa (sic)."

So, if:
a. Saved people cannot sin

b. a backslider is, by definition, a once saved person who is now sinning

How does a person get from being saved to backslidden if not by sinning?
---Bruce5656 on 10/6/11


if your conscience convicts you. My doesn't convict me to do Saturday's. ---Mark_V. on 10/6/11

There are many murders, liars adulters, theives, and whormongers whose conscience do not bother them are they correct also?
Obedience to God is not a matter of conscience is it? I know that is not what you are saying. You are saying GOD COMMANDED that we keep the 7th day as a sabbath, but to you Sunday is just as good.
---Francis on 10/6/11


1 John 3:4 isn't telling us that we are under the law, but that a person who sins will break the laws.
It is simply telling what sin is...breaking of the law.
Whoever puts him/herself under the law and tries to keep them all, but breaks even one has, in God's sight, broken all of them. (James 2:10)

Sin is fleshly and that's where the sin-nature is. (Romans 7:18)
Man is a 3-part being. (1Thessalonians 5:23)

Yes, saved people do sin. If we didn't then 1John 1:9, 1John 2:1-2 & Proverbs 28:13 need to removed from the bible.

My point is that saved folks do sin. Even the Apostle Paul did...even after being 'saved' for several years.(Romans 7)
---Rickey on 10/6/11




MARKV, let us share some things with each other. Let me tell you my understanding of the sabbath, and you share yours.
1: the Sabbath was instituted by God on the 7th day of the week, to commemorate his creation.
2: It was writen in stone ( a literal and symbolic gesture. Literal because it was really writen in stone, symbolic to show that it cannot be changed
3: The week of creation is real and cannot be changed. the death fo christ cannot erase what God did on those six days
4: God has not remove his blessing on the Sabbath
5: Bases on isaiah 66 we will be keeping the sabbath in heaven
---Francis on 10/6/11


PART 1:

Haz27, man is tripartite - made of the body (flesh), soul and spirit. Many use 1 John 3:9 without understanding that John was referring to the spirit man, which was initially dead in sins and trespasses and is now born of the Holy Spirit. It is true that when the sinner is born of the Holy Spirit, he CANNOT sin because the nature of the Holy Spirit is sinless.

Now the soul. God declared in Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." From this, we know it's the soul of the man that sins. The flesh that's made of dust is merely the vessel the soul resides in and when Adam fell, his spirit was cut off from God and had no more communication with God anymore, so do his posterity (mankind).
---christan on 10/5/11


PART 2:

God then cursed Adam & Eve, saying "dust you are dust you shall return". The curse affects all mankind, even the Christian. And that's because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".

It is the Christian's soul and spirit that does not see eternal death anymore because Christ has conquered death on his behalf. After his earthly death, his soul and spirit awaits a new and glorified body when Christ returns.

That's why Paul wrote in great length of the struggles of a Christian in Romans 7 after he/she is born of the Holy Spirit, acknowledging "sin that dwelleth in me". Contrary to your understanding, the Christian in the flesh continues to sin.
---christan on 10/5/11


Haz,you are contradicting yourself. You have previously insisted that once saved a Christian cannot sin. But now you say a Christian can sin. Which is it?

You wrote "You asked if a Christian broke the commandments would he have sinned?
No, as we are not under the law so how can we be accused of transgression?"

The direct consequence of your words is that we can break any of the 10 Commandments and not be accused of transgression!

You say sin is only unbelief however 1 John 3:4 says "Everyone who sins breaks the law, in fact, sin is lawlessness."
---Warwick on 10/6/11


(Romans 8:5)
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires, but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.


Mark and Warwick
Sin is the desire of the Flesh, it is not the desire of the Spirit.
Those who are born of Gods Holy Spirit, are led by the Gods Holy Spirit.
Agree or Disagree?

If you agree, does the Holy Spirit of God lead you into sin? If not, whose your master?
Can sin be the master of someone born of the Holy Spirit of God?
---David on 10/6/11


You asked if a Christian broke the commandments would he have sinned?
No, as we are not under the law so how can we be accused of transgression?
---Haz27 on 10/5/11
Sorry HAZ you are wrong. I know That i am unable to convince you that anyone you transgresses the ten commandments have commited sin, 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. The bible itself has not convinced you.
I am not even sure that I can take your answeer seriously, I think that you are just having fun. Just creating controversy for fun.
No one who is serious would say that a married christian in bed with one who is not their spouse is not sinning. So you must be joking: GOOD ONE LOL
---Francis on 10/6/11


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Francis, you say,
"Anyone who teaches another person no tto keep the sabbath or to eat anything unclean is teaching him to sin"

1. No one teaches others to sin. They teach what the Law say's to a believer born of the Spirit.
2. No one told anyone to not worship on Saturdays. You can worship anytime you want if your conscience convicts you. My doesn't convict me to do Saturday's. I worship Christ on any day and eat anything by faith, for He lives in me, without a doubt.
"Do you have faith? Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith, for whatever is not from faith is sin" (Rom. 14:22,23).
---Mark_V. on 10/6/11


The has-been thinks that sin does not undo 'salvation'? Maybe his brand of it
in his mind and far removed from the word! In Galatians 16-26 it says "... and
such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
How do you walk? Walk like an Egyptian...?
Romans 11:22, While being "cut off",is there any salvation to be spoken of?
---Nana on 10/6/11


Warwick.....In 1 John 1:8 John is not talking about believers. John is talking about the gnostics in those days that believed they were without sin. John goes on to say that if they(the gnostics) will confess that they are sinners to God that He will forgive their sins and cleanse them of all unrighteousness.
You see warwick...believers are cleansed of ALL unrighteousness. Our sins have been forgiven once we received Christ.
---JIM on 10/6/11


Francis:
You asked if a Christian broke the commandments would he have sinned?
No, as we are not under the law so how can we be accused of transgression?
Repentance?
Repentance is from "DEAD WORKS" Heb 6:1
We confessed our sins and were forgiven when we came to Christ.
But if a Christian does do wrong they won't profit by it. God disciplines us (example: King David's adultery/murder)

Throughout our lives Christians will do wrong at times. This does not undo our salvation.
It's the sin of unbelief that the world will be convicted of (John 16:9)

So there's no need for the foot washing to deal with commandment breaking.
---Haz27 on 10/5/11


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Bruce, Backsliders do not serve Christ, but they are degenerates whom have left their first love, namely, Christ, and have substituted sin for Christ. And unless the backslider, whom is a manifested sinner and a NonChristian in every sense of the word, repents back to Christ they will surely perish in their sin and be lost for all eternity. Backsliding is very grievous, for apostacy is very difficult to restore them back to holiness, for they have openly dissed Christ and made his crucifixion of none effect, and so have become seven times worse then before they backslid. Please read about over-crucifying the Son of God in Hebrews 6:4-6.
---Eloy on 10/5/11


Haz, I believe you got it wrong regarding Francis. A simple-I was wrong about that will do. I am in no way offended. Do not confuse my passion to defend Biblical truth with me taking offense.

Romans 8:34 "...Christ Jesus.....is also interceding for us" and Hebrews 7:25 "he always lives to intercede for them" is all post resurrection, where Jesus intercedes for us, now!

This of course agrees with 1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.and 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
---Warwick on 10/5/11


Christan:
I'm curious how you support the idea that the soul sins. Can you provide scripture?

There are so many scriptures that say Christians don't sin/are not sinners, but I am interested to see scriptures that support what your saying.
---Haz27 on 10/5/11


Warwick:
You asked about Jesus's intercession.
He did this on the cross.

Isa 53:10-12
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him,...His soul an offering for sin,... For He shall bear their iniquities....He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors."

1Tim 2:5,6
"there is one God and one mediator...the man Christ Jesus, Who gave himself a ransom for all"

Heb 9:15
"for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death"
---Haz27 on 10/5/11


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theSeg, curious post from you...

//Aka, I am not speaking specially to you. It just he said whatsoever ye shall ask. Ive ask! // ---TheSeg on 10/4/11

Joh_16:23 And in that day ...Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Have we reached THAT day?

//I believe if you dont know who the saved are...You have not heard him!//

Mat 7:22-23

I hear Him loud and clear about this. yet, many do not.

//All have sinned! Rom_14:11//

No dispute there.

//Is it really so unclear?//
You and many others can declare your salvation now, but I will let Him decide when that day comes. Until then, we can both agree that is His salvation and not our own.
---aka on 10/5/11


somehow or the other many find this acceptable
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

and This objectionable

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
---Francis on 10/5/11


"You asked which part of us does not sin. The answer is no part sins. The soul and Spirit do not sin..." Haz27

Haz27, a Christian dead spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and this is the part of him that does not sin - because the Holy Spirit indwells in him - and the Spirit does sin.

The soul is justified by faith but continues to sin while still in the flesh. The Father will chastise him and remind him of the vileness of sin before Him. Because of his justification his sins will not send him to hell because God has forgiven him in Christ.

So, be very careful when you say "no part sins" while the Christian is still alive in the flesh.
---christan on 10/5/11


1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
--Isn't this a daily prayer?
---micha9344 on 10/5/11


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Francis, has anyone here called you a "lowlife?" Has anyone here encourage others to sin? ---Mark_V. on 10/5/11
Anyone who teaches another person no tto keep the sabbath or to eat anything unclean is teaching him to sin
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You do not have to agree with God, FEW DO
Matthew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
---francis on 10/5/11


Francis:
"The law is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good" Rom 7:12

The law is "SPIRITUAL" (Rom 7:14). Our "inward Man" (Christ in us) "delights in the law" (Rom 7:22).

Unless our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes/pharisees we shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20).

BUT, it is Jesus who did all this for us. Jesus is called great in heaven. And a Christian's life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ" Phil 3:9
---Haz27 on 10/5/11


Eloy,
If saved people do not sin, how do they backslide?
---Bruce5656 on 10/5/11


Eloy, you are so deceived. There are two types of people in the world. Saved and unsaved. Saved people are not without sin and if you think you are, you are calling God a liar. I would be scared to death if I were you. We have been thru this before and anyone who disagrees with you is told not to address you again. No one here agrees with you...no one so why are you here?
---shira4368 on 10/5/11


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No. The righteous are not sinuous. There are two races in this world, the godly, those following God: and the worldly, those following the world. The destination of one is heaven, and the destination of the other is hell. And you will know them by their fruits, which family the person belongs to: "Do people gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? A good tree cannot bring forward bad fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forward good fruit. Every tree that brings not forward good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you all will know them." -Jesus Christ.
---Eloy on 10/5/11


The Apostle Peter got filled with the Holy Spirit on Pentacost and preached to the Jews > Acts chapter two. Later, Peter was used to minister the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius > Acts chapter ten. Then Paul tells us how Peter "played the hypocrite" (Galatians 2:11-13) by discriminating against Gentile background Christians. So, he betrayed the Holy Spirit whom he had ministered to Gentiles . . . playing the hypocrite . . . one of the worst things that Jesus hates.

So, Jerry . . . you are asking if Peter was really saved, I guess.
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/5/11


Haz2, I have answered many if not all of your questions. Can you answer a few for me?
Ok thanks:
If a christian
1. worshiped other gods.
2. worshiped idols.
3. misused God's name.
4. did not keep the sabbath
5. dishonored your father & mother.
6. Commited murder.
7. Committed adultery.
8. Stole
9. lied.
10. and Coveted

1: Would he have sinned?
2: Would he need to repent?
3: Would he need to ask God forgiveness?
4: Would he need to confess?
5: What should a christians do if he did any of these?
6: Can a christian continue to do these and still be called a christian?
---Francis on 10/5/11


Francis, has anyone here called you a "lowlife?" Has anyone here encourage others to sin? Why do you have to say such things because people disagree with been under the Law? Why? Don't you see how much you represent the Pharisees (SDA's), who spoke of the Law but instead their hearts were rotten. They had no faith in the inside towards Christ and the Truth. You do the same thing here, want to show how holy you are, and how you represent the Law, so how self-righteous you are, and because others don't want to be under the Law anymore since Christ has brought freedom to them, you call them "lowlifes" That is the reason I told Warwich and others why I believe the SDA's are totally wrong. A very self-righteous group of sinners.
---Mark_V. on 10/5/11


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---Haz27 on 10/5/11
Matthew 11:9-11 So of all the men born naturally, John the baptist is most blessed and privillaged, he is not only a prophet but he is choosen to introduce the Messiah to the world. Yet, those who are considered the lowest ( Matthew 11:5 THE BLIND receive their sight, and THE LAME walk, THE LEPERS are cleansed, and THE DEAF hear, THE DEAD are raised up, and THE POOR have the gospel preached to them )These are even more fortunate than John (providing the accept the gospel) because they are touched, and healed by the messiah, and have the Gospel preached to them by God himself.

can we agree that these people ( blind, poor lame ETC) are different than the lowlife who encourage and teach men to sin. We agree on that?
---Francis on 10/5/11


David 2: Another way was if they believed in Christ (v.24). Committing sin to them condemned them. For one who is in bondage to sin is not a child of God. And so He say's (v. 35) "A slave does not abide in the house forever" since he is not saved by grace through faith in Christ, but "But a son abides forever, Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed" Only the sons abides forever, the others don't. Because Jesus has given them freedom from the bondage of sin, and they are free indeed.
---Mark_V. on 10/5/11


David, in the context of John 8:34,35, Jesus was talking to the Jews who didn't believe in Him, (v.24) "Therefore I said to you that you" will die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" Later they claimed they were descendants of Abraham and never in bondage. But Jesus was talking about their spiritual bondage to sin and rebellion against God. He said to them, "Most assuredly, "I say to you" whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" Why did He say that to them? Because they were under the law and by breaking one law they broke them all. They had two ways they could be saved, one, if they never sinned, which was impossible for them.
---Mark_V. on 10/5/11


1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Why do the saved need defending if they cannot sin?

If we cannot sin what does Romans 8:34 mean "Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

"Interceding for us", why?

Or Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

Why does Jesus continue to "intercede" for the saved?
---Warwick on 10/5/11


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Warwick:
We differ in our understanding and I suspect that you feel offended by our debate so far.

I gave 2 DIFFERENT partial quotes from Francis and put them in one sentence as an example. I even explained several posts back that they were each from different posts.

Your continual erroneous claim that I am not sticking to the truth in quoting Francis suggests you feel offended. That is regrettable. I had hoped that our differences would not result in feelings of being offended.

---Haz27 on 10/5/11


David 1 John 3:9 reads "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

This is in line with 1 John 1:8, and 2:1. Claiming that 1 John 3:9 says we cannot, or do not sin post-salvation makes John out to be quite confused.
---Warwick on 10/5/11


Christan:
You asked which part of us does not sin. The answer is no part sins.

The soul and Spirit do not sin and as for the body we see in Rom 8:10 "If Christ be in you the BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN"

"For ye are DEAD, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col 3:3)
"He that is DEAD is FREED from sin" Rom 6:7.

"if the firstfruit (Christ) is holy, the lump is also holy" Rom 11:16

Christ in us makes us holy, hence there is no sin when our life is hid with Christ in God.

---Haz27 on 10/5/11


br>Peace
---TheSeg on 10/4/11
Well i would hope that you look into the meaning of each text. Can we agree that the text does NOT say that John is the " least?"

I will leave it to you to figure out if Least in Matthew 5 means lowest form of life, and if least in luke mean the person considered less important.

if you want to really know, just think of what the bible calls satan: who teaches men to sin
---Francis on 10/5/11


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\\FRANCIS
I say this because if this is in your heart, you need a new bible.\\

Francis is in no position to talk, because like the rest of the SDA and Protestants in general, he doesn't have a whole Bible, but a Bible with a great big hole in it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/11


The passages are talking about habitual sins. Mark_V

(1John 3:9)
"Those who are born of God, do not sin"

Mark
When God gave the commandment, "Do not kill", was he talking of habitual sin?
Do you believe Jesus paid the penalty for sin, allowing you to sin,... just as long as you don't make a habit of sinning?
How much sin constitutes a habit in your doctrine?

Remember, Jude warned us of such doctrines.
(Jude 1:4)
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
---David on 10/5/11


Haz you wrote 'Francis claims, to transgress the law you have not seen Christ nor known him, AND you're the "lowest form of life"

In reality he was quoting Matthew 5:19 with a comment in parenthesis. "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least( LOWEST FORM OF LIFE) in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

This is very different from your claim. You need to stick to the truth.
---Warwick on 10/5/11


Jesus made all humanity ELIGIBLE to enter the city of God in the afterlife. He did this by destroying the law of sin and death (commandment sin) so that it would no longer be possible to transgress/violate the law of sin and death.

Depending on our mood and the situation at hand (this world presents MANY drastic situations), no matter how sincere we are, in our daily "Walk in love", it is inevitable that we will either intentionally or carelessly commit WRONGDOING sin and not be in a heavenly state of mind.

Every day, we each live the present part of eternity (he DESTINY part will be a continuation of the present part).

Even though you are saved from THE LAW, "wrongdoing sin" remains a spiritual danger.
---more_excellent_way on 10/5/11


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aka

Joh_16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

I believe if you dont know who the saved are.
You have not heard him!

All have sinned!
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Is it really so unclear?
Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Aka, I am not speaking specially to you.
It just he said whatsoever ye shall ask.
Ive ask!
---TheSeg on 10/4/11


NO! here's how you do it
when someone tells you you are sinning
your answer is 'YE NOT JUDGE ME'
when they quote a verse 'question them back'
or do what Pat robertson does - that people misinterpret you.

oh by the way, if saved people still sin, then why do the same sinner accuse other believers of sin?
---mike on 10/4/11


Warwick:
Did you note the post from Francis in this very blog stating "lowest form of life"?
And I have no doubts Francis can confirm that other quote from 1John3:6

Francis:
I am not disagreeing that your quotes are just variations of what God actually said. My reason for originally quoting you was because it sounded like you claimed SDA's never slip up on commandments. It was later you admitted they do and you spoke of foot washing.
---Haz27 on 10/4/11


shouldn't we wait until Judgement do to find out who is "saved"?
---aka on 10/4/11


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FRANCIS
I say this because if this is in your heart, you need a new bible.
What is greater the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven.
My wife said arent they the same?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk_7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Is John the (LOWEST FORM OF LIFE)?
Peace
---TheSeg on 10/4/11


David, the reason many are not believing what you say is because of your interpretation. you said,
"Because of what Jesus taught in (John 8:34-35).
Jesus clearly says in vs.34, "If you sin, you are a slave to sin."
Then he says in vs.35 that a slave (one who sins), does not have Eternal Life."

Your interpetation of the passages are wrong. The passages are talking about habitual sins. It is not talking about one sin or another. If that is the case then you are heading to hell.
I know I'm not, because Christ works paid the debt I owed God, You can be under the law if you want, and remain there if you want. That is where all the lost are at, under the law and need Christ to save them.
---Mark_V. on 10/4/11


Haz, you wrote 'Francis claims, to transgress the law you have not seen Christ nor known him, AND you're the "lowest form of life." You say you have given the details of when he wrote this however I cannot find it. I therefore doubt you are being truthful.

God is concerned about the heart and the spirit of the law. Not slavish legalistic observance. Some believe in baptismal immersion, others sprinkling. Some people use wine for communion others grape juice. There will always be differences of opinion as Christians are free people, not serfs under a human despot who dictates what they believe.

God know the heart and our very motives. This is what He will judge, not how many 'brownie points' a person has earned.
---Warwick on 10/4/11


Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

So if or when you sin, repent, seek forgiveness and do not be like those who commit sin and say they are free to do all these abominations

Jeremiah 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not, And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
---Francis on 10/4/11


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josef, the Scriptures you quoted are true. However, I would like to ask you: which part of the tripartite man is this Scriptures referring to? The flesh, soul or the spirit? While we quote verses from the Holy Bible, we must be very very careful as to what we are trying to teach and imply.

It is very true that Christ came to die for the sins of His people. But then again, is everybody His people? Well, according to the Scripture is answer is a definite NO. It only refers to those whom the Father love and have given to His Son before the foundations of the world.

So, now that you have quoted those verses, please elaborate for us which part of the Christian does not sin.
---christan on 10/4/11


As I said I already provided the post date when Francis said breaking a commandments makes you the lowest form of life.
---Haz27 on 10/4/11
Very poor stategy. Credit whatever parts of the bible you disagree with to someone else. That way you do not have to take responsibility

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least( LOWEST FORM OF LIFE) in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Are you really gone continue to say " francis said" when it is in the bible?
---FRANCIS on 10/4/11


We still have a 'sinful nature', that is true. But does 'sin' also require the desire to sin, or is just an action that was unintentional a sin?
---Emma on 10/4/11


David...you are lost my friend. True followers of Christ know that he paid the penelty for all sin. Jesus offer for all time one sacrifice for sins, then sat down at the right hand of God. You see the penelty of sin has been paid for. Sure, believers will sin, but not that grace should abound. If you do not understand this, than you just do not understand what grace is about. There is no bigger motivator than grace to live a Godly life.
---JIM on 10/4/11


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Josef, good scripture references.

We also see Christians are not sinners in these references:

Gal 2:15 "We who are Jews by nature (having circumcision of the heart Rom 2:29), and NOT SINNERS of the Gentiles"

1Pet 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (the cross), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (your old man crucified with Christ Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath CEASED FROM SIN".
---Haz27 on 10/4/11


Warwick:
As I said I already provided the post date when Francis said breaking a commandments makes you the lowest form of life. Go back through my posts to see it. And the other quote from Francis on 1John3:6 goes back further. Better ask Francis yourself as he will confirm it rather than searching through so many posts.

And discussing your commandment breaking is about showing the error in legalistic doctrines. Both you and SDA's have conflicting variations on commandments.
According to SDA's, regardless of your believing on Jesus your condemned because you got the Sabbath day wrong.

---Haz27 on 10/4/11


jerry6593, Paul after being converted by the will of God, declared in Romans 7:

14,15 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that do I."

19-22 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

So, according to you, Paul isn't saved because he did not give us the perception that he was walking sinless in the flesh, like you, right?
---christan on 10/4/11


Are sinners saved?
The Followers of Jesus Christ, say No.
Why?
Because of what Jesus taught in (John 8:34-35).
Jesus clearly says in vs.34, "If you sin, you are a slave to sin."
Then he says in vs.35 that a slave (one who sins), does not have Eternal Life.

Why do the many, not believe this teaching?
Because they do not follow what Christ taught.
Proof?
Jesus taught that "Good works" are needed to enter into heaven.(Matthew 25:31-46)and Jesus taught that the sinner is not "saved."

BTW Good works are not the keeping of the Law of Moses, Good works are acts of love towards your neighbor, and these acts are required if one is to gain the favor of God.(John 14:21)
---David on 10/4/11


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"Do "saved" people sin?" No.
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1Jo 3:9
"We know that whoever is born of God does not sin, but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." 1Jo 5:18
"How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Rom 6:2
"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with,... For he who has died has been freed from sin." Rom 6:6,7
"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" Jhn 1:29
See also Hbr 9:28>1Pe 2:24>1Jo 2:2> 1Jo 3:5>Rev 1:5
---josef on 10/4/11


Haz you wrote 'Francis claims, to transgress the law you have not seen Christ nor known him, AND you're the "lowest form of life"

Where and when did he write this?

Jesus showed us He is concerned with the spirit of the law, rather than the letter. In Matthew 5 He speaks on adultery saying even looking lustfully at a woman is adultery! This is the spirit of the law.

I believe the spirit of the law is for those love him to we set aside a day to rest and worship Him. Can we, in good conscience set aside Friday, or Sunday? I believe so.

I think you should consider your sins and leave mine between me and my Lord!
---Warwick on 10/4/11


Rom_3:23! This is clear!

But God has been saying I have forgiven you, because of Christ!
1Ti_1:15!

Some say not everyone, the sinners. This is true!
Well just who are they, the sinners?
Well, the ones that dont believe God!

You can only see this, if you really believe God.
But, not because of anything you did!
Php_1:29!

Just like Christ answered John.
Mat_3:15! Then he suffered him.
You will suffer them. But how are you going to understand this, if you cant believe God.

You see that just the point! You cant, unless it is given to you.
I know you all see and hear this. I also know you understand it.
But, you still dont believe it!
You think, you can find it.


---TheSeg on 10/3/11


1Peter 4:18
"If the righteous are scarcely SAVED, where shall the ungodly and SINNER appear?"

2 DIFFERENT groups:
Group 1 Righteous
Group 2 Sinner
You cant be both

John6:34-36
"Jesus answered them... Whosoever committeth sin is the SERVANT OF SIN.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you FREE, ye shall be FREE indeed."

2 different groups:
Group 1 Free
Group 2 Servant of sin
You cant be both.

Rom 8:10 "If Christ be in you the body is DEAD because of sin.."
Rom 6:7 "he that is DEAD is FREED from sin"
I no longer live but Christ lives in me.
Who are you?
---Haz27 on 10/3/11


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The worst sinners are the ones who say that they do not sin, because, as the Bible states, they are liars and there is no truth in them at all.
---Jed on 10/3/11


Warwick:
Your in continual sin according to SDA's because you keep Sunday Sabbath and not Saturday. So SDA doctrine says you are overcome by the world and as this blog topic asks, are you "REALLY saved"?

And please read my posts again. I provided Francis's post date for you showing his claim that breaking a commandment makes you the lowest form of life.

As for his claim that to transgress the law you have not seen him nor known him, ask Francis and he will confirm he actually said it.
Francis used 1John3:4 "sin is transgression of law" and then he transposed "sin" with "transgression of the law" when quoting 1John3:6
---Haz27 on 10/3/11


I love it when Jesus was sked how many times do we ask for forgiveness and He replies 70X7. Wow he must have known we would sin. God and His Grace.
---chuck on 10/3/11


\\You like to worship God only on Saturdays as Israel did, while others like Sunday's, Monday's, Tuesday"s, Wed. Thurs, Friday's and sometimes even Saturdays.\\

I've repeatedly asked jerry which day we get to keep in an unholy and profane manner, that we may live according to our own desires, or which day of the week we are FORBIDDEN to worship, but he has never answered either question.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/11


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Jerry, yes, even people who are saved sin. Even you guys from the SDA's sin, maybe even worse because you look down on others who do not want to be under the Law given to Israel. You like to worship God only on Saturdays as Israel did, while others like Sunday's, Monday's, Tuesday"s, Wed. Thurs, Friday's and sometimes even Saturdays. To us it does not matter because Christ lives in us, to you Saturday matters because you want to remain under the Law given to Israel. Go for it.
---Mark_V. on 10/3/11


Yes, saved people do sin.

The Bible says in Romans that we have ALL sinned.

Becoming saved often makes keeping away from SIN even more challenging. I've been there and I'm saved.

Satan will work harder on the saved to get them: Isolated, Discouraged, etc. Plus, he'll throw more of every temptation at you.

I once wondered why so many saved, spiritually-grounded, God-Fearing people end up in sinful, moral, failure situations. That includes Sunday School teachers, Pastors, Televangelists, etc.

Because we live in a fallen, sinful, world where avoiding sin is challenging.

Not that we WANT to sin. But as long as this Earth exists, there will be SIN. Because GOD allows it.
---Sag on 10/3/11


The Apostle John already dealt with this question. "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You do by repeatedly bearing false witness against Ignatius and me, jerry.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/11


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