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Prayer For Coptic Christians

Please pray for our Coptic Orthodox Christians and Catholic Christians living Egypt. They are under intense persecution. Today, a militant Muslim mob destroyed Christians homes, businesses, and a Coptic Church. Our Coptic brothers and sisters in Christ needs our prayers and support. Lord, Have Mercy!

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 ---Ignatius on 10/2/11
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Note: In John 6:4,these comments of "bread from heaven" is in context of the Passover. "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
---Rod4Him on 10/15/11

Rod,

In Jhn 6:51 it reads "This bread is my flesh which I will give to the world"

Was it a metaphor, symbolic or was it literally his flesh on the cross?
---Ruben on 10/17/11


May the good Lord be their strength at this time of trial from the evil one who is really the enemy. May God preserve them and increase HIS presence in that country in Jesus' name.
---Adetunji on 10/17/11


\\Most of what is taught in the RCC comes from the early Catholic church fathers, who introduced many superstitions and traditions used by the pagan and heathen's of the time.\\

Please name one, and give the name of the person who did it, and the date.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/14/11


Ruben, Let me tell you what a metaphor is. A metaphor is an unexpressed comparison. It does not use the words "like" or "as." The subject and the thing with which it is being compared are interwinded rather than kept separate. Jesus used metaphors when He said, "I am the bread of life" and "You are the light of the world" Although the subject and its comparison are identified as one, the author does not intend his words to be taken literally: Christ is no more a piece of bread than Christians are photon-emitters. The author is intending to stress a single point, that Christ is the source of sustence for our spiritual lives.
---Mark_V. on 10/15/11


//The word 'Sprirt' is never use as a metaphor or symbolic at all in all of scripture! Which words are 'Spirit' and 'Life'//

The "Spirit" is not a metaphor nor suggested that He should be.

However, "bread of life, drinking His blood, rivers of living water, light of the world, never thirsting, living bread from heaven (note: not from a priest), do not work for food that perishes, but for [heavenly food], abiding in the vine, Good Sheperd," these are metaphors Jesus used to communicate a spiritual life in Him. The WORK is to belive in Him.

Note: In John 6:4,these comments of "bread from heaven" is in context of the Passover. "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
---Rod4Him on 10/15/11




Ruben 2: What I meant concering "I am the bread of life" was that Christ is the source of sustanence for our spiritual lives, and when He said ""You are the light of the world" the writer of scripture suggested that Christians are to be examples of godly living in an ungodly world.
The only difference between a smilie and a metaphor is that a similie uses the words "like" or "as" example, "The Kingdom of heaven is "like" a mustered seed." In a smilie the subject and the thing with which it is being compared are kept separate ( not, 'the kingdom of heaven is.... but rather "the kingdom of heaven is "like" ).
---Mark_V. on 10/15/11


Rod4Him * All through St John he uses metaphors to communicate a spiritual concept. St John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

The word 'Sprirt' is never use as a metaphor or symbolic at all in all of scripture! Which words are 'Spirit' and 'Life'

"He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day"v55
---Ruben on 10/14/11


lee1538* In order to have eternal life, men must become united with Christ so that the merits of his matchless life and atoning death become efficacious to them.

Ok, but also Jesus said "For my flesh is meat indeed : and my blood is drink indeed ." And then he said "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him."v56-57

lee1538 * Admit it Ruben you brought into pagan type superstitions.

Admit it lee what you are trying to said is this : " This saying is hard, and who can hear it?" Therefore "and walked no more with him." Notice Lee he did not call the discples back, if you understood him correctly he will let you walk!
---Ruben on 10/14/11


Cluny, Lee's answers are true about superstitions. Most of what is taught in the RCC comes from the early Catholic church fathers, who introduced many superstitions and traditions used by the pagan and heathen's of the time. In order to combat the other religions customs use to idols and different gods with mysterious and superstitions rituals, the fathers decided to make the church similar, so that more converts could convert to the Catholic church. This way they would do it for God instead of other idols. That is why today they have many traditions never used by the early church apostles or leaders. And most of those early Catholic church fathers themselves came from those pagan background and introduced many ideas to the Church.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


Acknowledging that we should pray for Coptics in Egypt, even though some seem to be violent, here are some observations of St John's Epistle.

St John never refers to the Last Supper/Eucharist/Communion. If John 6 was refering to that, one would think that he would have said so. St John also skips the last supper as he focuses on a spiritual idea, abiding in Christ.

All through St John he uses metaphors to communicate a spiritual concept. St John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." Like Nicodemus some try to make something spiritual fleshly or something fleshly spiritual.
---Rod4Him on 10/14/11




\\The giving of his flesh refers to Christs bodily sacrifice, and his blood pictures the atoning value of his death (re: OT blood sacrifices). These values must be partaken of by men in order for them to be saved.

Admit it Ruben you brought into pagan type superstitions.
---lee1538 on 10/13/11\\

And we partake of these in the Holy Eucharist.

Admit it, lee. You're spreading traditions and precepts of men.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/11


Jesus explained that the bread of life is his flesh which men must eat in order to live (6:51-59).

This startling statement created a stir among the listeners, as Jesus intended.

He spoke of giving his flesh and the need of men to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

What did he mean?

In order to have eternal life, men must become united with Christ so that the merits of his matchless life and atoning death become efficacious to them.

The giving of his flesh refers to Christs bodily sacrifice, and his blood pictures the atoning value of his death (re: OT blood sacrifices). These values must be partaken of by men in order for them to be saved.

Admit it Ruben you brought into pagan type superstitions.
---lee1538 on 10/13/11


Cluny I respect your right to your your beliefs therefore unless I find specific Bible verses I will say no more after this about this subject. I still would like to have the Chapter and verse where it says the wine actually becomes blood and the bread flesh. I'm afraid it will sound more like contention if I continue and I don't want that. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 10/13/11


Cluny with all due respect the word you gave in Greek,Anamnesis,you said it means to make present not just remember. I looked up the word Anamnesis,I wanted to see its meaning. No meaning given means to make present,its calling to memory,recall,recollection. I went further and found that none of the Greek roots,there were four given meant to make present,the main one showed plainly it is to recall,remember,recollect. We must realize we no longer have to have Christ brought up in any form on earth for he is living within each Christian. God is a Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and so is Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks,and breaking bread is participation in the blood and body of Christ.
---Darlene_1 on 10/13/11


\\Cluny we know God won't go against his own Word,commandments,and ordinances,he would never tell Christians to do that.\\

God: Arise, Peter. Kill and eat.

Peter:Oh, no, Lord! You KNOW I've never eaten anything tref [unkosher].

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/11


lee1538* He is the Gate, the Door, the Bread of Life, the true vine, the I AM, - a host of other terms.

Except for the I AM, he never pointed to the door,gate, and vine and said " That is my body", however he did on the bread and said " This is my body"

lee1538* John 16:29 His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!

But yet in the same Gospel chapter 6, some of his "Discples" said " This saying is hard, and who can hear it?" And even walk away "and walked no more with him."

Nothing here about Jesus calling them back and saying I was using figurative speech!



---Ruben on 10/13/11


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lee1538* The view the elements become the actual body of Christ that one MUST EAT to be granted salvation .

Jesus himself who said "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever, and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world."

Question: Did Jesus give us his flesh on the cross? or was it figuratively, which you support?

lee1538 * They say 'Unless you eat the bread crumb, you will be DAMNED!

Paul said that you are 'Damed' Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord."(1 Cor 11:27)

Question: If it is just bread 'crumbs', how is someone unworthily and quilty?
---Ruben on 10/13/11


Ruben - to support your viewpoint, you ignore the fact Christ often spoke figuratively. He is the Gate, the Door, the Bread of Life, the true vine, the I AM, - a host of other terms.

John 16:29 His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!

The view the elements become the actual body of Christ that one MUST EAT to be granted salvation is simply a superstition used by the clergy thinking that they could withhold such from others thus denying them eternal salvation.

They say 'Unless you eat the bread crumb, you will be DAMNED! so pretty please do what we want of you'. And to what extreme will a person go to in order to have eternal life and avoid the fires of hell?
---lee1538 on 10/12/11


lee1538 * Is bread and wine food? Yes or No.

The answers is yes and no!

Is the bread food?

Jesus himself said "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever, and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world."


lee1538* Eating the actual flesh and blood of Jesus is cannibalism.

But yet Jesus said over and over:

" Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man"
"He that eateth my flesh"
"For my flesh is meat indeed"
"He that eateth my flesh"

And this is after they said almost what you wrote " how can this man give us his flesh"?
---Ruben on 10/12/11


\\and from the lips of the Master, Do this in remembrance of me. It is a memorial to reverently and solemnly reflect with thankful hearts his work on the cross. \\

Actually, the Greek word used in the Gospelsandd 1 Cor, ANAMNESIS, does not mean a mere mental remembrance, no matter how solemn and thankful--which can always be done and at any time without complicating it with bread and wine.

No, the word ANAMNESIS means to make present that which is being commemorated.

And Jesus did not say, "To make My work on the Cross memorialized," but rather ME.

Thus, for those who have the spiritual discernment, the Eucharist indeed makes Jesus present under the appearance of bread and wine.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/12/11


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Ruben - it is just too simple a matter of reasoning to reach a better understanding of the verses involved.

Compare John 6:54 with John 6:40 and you can see that what we have here is known as parallelism.

"everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life"

is the same as

"feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life".

The end results is the same 'eternal life'.

Sorry but your belief really belongs in the realms of supersititon - designed by the church hierarchy to control people.
---lee1538 on 10/12/11


1 Cor. 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

---lee1538 on 10/12/11

Lee, is 'very aware' that this verse is not speaking about Jesus flesh, notice how he stay away from the Gospel of John chapter 6:

"Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day."

" For my flesh is meat indeed : and my blood is drink indeed. "

You see why?
---Ruben on 10/12/11


As Darlene said, and from the lips of the Master, Do this in remembrance of me. It is a memorial to reverently and solemnly reflect with thankful hearts his work on the cross. This doesnt even get into who can handle the bread according to mans traditions, that puts a whole other man made spin on it. Just because most Protestants dont believe in transubstantiation doesnt mean we dont take the sacrament just as serious. As for hypocrites, many people take the bread while being pedophiles, embezzlers and adulterers and that is no exception in any denomination no matter how Holy people attempt to make the ceremony with man-made trappings.
---Poppa_Bear on 10/12/11


Cluny we know God won't go against his own Word,commandments,and ordinances,he would never tell Christians to do that. God's view of eating/drinking blood. Leviticus 17:10,14 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you that eats any manner of blood,I will even set my face against that soul that eats blood,and will cut him off from among his people. Fot it is the life of all flesh,the blood of it is for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof. Whosoever eats it shall be cut off. Jesus became the blood scarifice for our sins and the OT is our Schoolmaster how God does things,and he had the blood of all scarifices under the Old Covenant,poured out they did not drink it or eat it.
---Darlene_1 on 10/12/11


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//As I said, the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

The problem here is the recipient is compelled to believe a miracle has taken place after the priest blabbers a few words over the elements. Also it puts Jesus into the hands of carnal man.

Is bread and wine food? Yes or No.

If food then very clearly the Bible tells us:

1 Cor. 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

Eating the actual flesh and blood of Jesus is cannibalism.

The belief in transubstantiation or whatever the Eastern Church would call it, is merely superstition designed by the hierarchy to control the masses.
---lee1538 on 10/12/11


Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
John 9:40-41 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth.
---micha9344 on 10/12/11


"\\The Bible teaches no such thing and you have no verses to say it does.\\
Yes, the Bible does, and YOU have no verses to say it does not."
Cluny
We all know that if the Bible stated such a thing you would have posted it long ago. Your desire to be an intellectual would not have allowed you to do otherwise.
---Elder on 10/12/11


\\The Bible teaches no such thing and you have no verses to say it does.\\

Yes, the Bible does, and YOU have no verses to say it does not.

**Cluny, anyone with half a brain would know that if the bread turns to literal Jesus, you would literally dispose of him in the toilet**

This is the heresy of Stercoarianism.

** I know many great man from the RCC taught and believed differently then what was a tradition the Church sanctioned. **

Please name one.

**Read the history of the Church and you will be educated.**

I have and am. You clearly didn't and aren't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/12/11


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1 Corinthians 11:29 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."
Why, some of you are crazy to mock as you do. But then again, if it is that you are crazy, what more can be expected of you?
---Nana on 10/12/11


"As I said, the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ."
Cluny
So would that be un-baked bread and raw meat with a little shot of blood? Is that blood warm or cold?
Com'on, Cluny, get a grip. The Bible teaches no such thing and you have no verses to say it does. Many times you have tried to display an intellectual response condemning things not Scripture based and now you make this comment?
Sounds like the Reformed Vampire Church of Blood Suckers.
Check to see if your wine is fermented.
---Elder on 10/12/11


Cluny, anyone with half a brain would know that if the bread turns to literal Jesus, you would literally dispose of him in the toilet. I don't want to answer your person, but a doctrine done by all of you. I will not say you are digging yourself a hole to hell, because I don't know if you are one of God's elect or not. I know many great man from the RCC taught and believed differently then what was a tradition the Church sanctioned. And all you are doing is believing what they teach. You speak of blasphemy, what is worse then to kneel down to saints, worship them and light candles to them, worship Mary, and justifying their idols? Now that is blasphemy. Read the history of the Church and you will be educated.
---Mark_V. on 10/12/11


Cluny thanks for your answer but with all due respect there is no where in the KJ and other available translations of Bibles that say the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into blood and flesh of Christ. Christ himself told the apostles in Matthew 26:26-28 but didn't say the Holy Spirit would literally change them into real flesh and blood. We are told to do it in remembrance of Christ Luke 22:19,20. If I missed the verse on HS literally changing it please give me chapter and verse that I may learn from it. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 10/11/11


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\\And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.\\

As I said, the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

Therefore, to blaspheme the Eucharist is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/11


\\A belief in a miracle that cannot be observed or verified - not at all typical of any miracle Christ performed that could be observed.\\

Most spiritual things can NOT be discerned by the senses. That's because spiritual things are spiritually discerned, lee.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/11


Cluny just a friendly reminder that to blaspheme Christ will not send a person to hell,I'm not saying Mark V did,Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Mark 3:28,29 I tell you the truth,all the sins and blasphemes of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven,he is guilty of eternal sin. Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven,either in this age or in the age to come. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 10/11/11


Not only does Satan know the Bible perfectly, he doesn't smoke, drink, do drugs, or even dance.

But does this do him any spiritual good?

\\So does the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox, they too hate Bible only.\\

So does the Bible. Nowhere does it teach Bible Only.

\\Satan does believe in literally eating Christ every Sunday if he could, and if he can get you guys to believe that,\\

MarkV, you're just digging your own hole in hell with your blasphemies.

If I didn't care about your soul, I wouldn't be giving you this warning.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/11


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\\A belief in a miracle that cannot be observed or verified - ...\\

We Orthodox know better.

Aside from the fact that in ancient thought, a symbol was the thing symbolized, and not a mere empty emblem, Tertullian, who fell away from the Church and eventually founded his own sect, is not to be trusted in all things.

His very rejection of the doctrine that the bread becomes the Body is PROOF that the mainstream of Christians believed it.

||3. ..., not upon any critical analysis of scripture or history.||

That's right. I take Jesus at His word, and don't indulge in sophistries to make Him mean the opposite of what He said, like you do.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/11


Cluny -
1. We Orthodox believe it's the Holy Spirit that makes the change, NOT the priest.

A belief in a miracle that cannot be observed or verified - not at all typical of any miracle Christ performed that could be observed.

2. What early fathers did not believe that the elements of the Eucharist were physically changed?

Tertullian viewed the Eucharistic elements as being symbols or figures which represented the body of blood of Christ. He specifically stated they were NOT the literal body & blood of our Lord, that Jesus in John was speaking figuratively which would be more believable.

3. Your choice of belief is really based upon what you were taught, not upon any critical analysis of scripture or history.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


Cluny, How could satan be baptist? Satan hates the authority of the Bible, God's Word. So does the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox, they too hate Bible only. They believe in the words spoken by their Church over the authority of God and His Word. And guess what. Satan does believe in literally eating Christ every Sunday if he could, and if he can get you guys to believe that, he already won your hearts for believing him. So he could not possibly be a Baptist.
---Mark_V. on 10/10/11


\\Baptists generally are far ahead of others in knowing their Bible. \\

That would mean that Satan would make a wonderful Baptist. \\While you believe a priest can change bread & wine into the actual body of Christ, \\

We Orthodox believe it's the Holy Spirit that makes the change, NOT the priest. Try again.

\\that belief is based upon your chosen interpretation of certain scripture.\\

Your beliefs are NEVER based upon YOUR chosen interpretations of certain scriptures, right?

\\The early fathers did not have a consensus on the Eucharist,so must we?\\

And which one/s in particular denied that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ? Be specific.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/10/11


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Cluny//And I do know the Scripture. That's why I'm no longer Baptist.

Baptists generally are far ahead of others in knowing their Bible.

While you believe a priest can change bread & wine into the actual body of Christ, that belief is based upon your chosen interpretation of certain scripture.

The early fathers did not have a consensus on the Eucharist,so must we?

if we merely partake of the elements as commanded by Jesus, the requirement is met.

this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me,

This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

We need not believe some kind of miracle happens to the elements.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


\\Eat Jesus?????

What you get physically from the Eucharist is a small cup of wine and a bread crumb. While we need not argue with Jesus, \\

Jesus said, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you."

If the Eucharist is mere bread and wine, then the Bible is mere paper and ink.

But real Christians also know that both are more than they appear to the senses.

\\anyone with common sense and knowledge of scripture would tell you that\|

The wisdom of this world--what you call common sense--is FOOLISHNESS with God.

And I do know the Scripture. That's why I'm no longer Baptist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/11


1 Corinthians 11:20_34.
---Nana on 10/7/11


Cluny, Jesus never said you had to eat him to be saved. If you believe so, please post the verse here. Yes, Jesus told the disciples "as often as you take of my body and drink of my blood, do this in rememberance of me". But I did not find anywhere where he said this is a requirement for salvation. Please post the scripture to support your claim.
---Jed on 10/7/11


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\\ It would grow in strength in the wake of a massive "falling away" from Jesus inside the christian church and would be revealed unrestrained after the Roman Empire fell.\\

Do you realize that the Roman Empire did not fall until 1453?

\\ It would be centered somewhere in Western Europe,\\

That's just Euro-American hubris and centrism to think that. The Bible nowhere teaches that Western Europe is the prophetc center of the universe.

HOWEVER, Orthodox teachers have taught that "that which restrains" is the Orthodox emperor, the last of which was martyred in Ekaterinburg, Siberia in 1918.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/11


Cluny 4: I'm continuing to explain why not only I but many believe it is the RCC and the popes as the antichrist.
This example I gave are talking about a real "actual kingdom" It would have 'eyes" like the eyes of man (being man-led and man-centered) make large claims for itself, have "a mouth" speaking great things, become persecuting and deadly, making war "against the saints" It would continue throughout Christian history and achieve global influnece in the end times, yet finally be destroyed by the sin-consuming brightness of our Lord Jesus Christ when He returns. Those are the facts from Scripture and only the RCC fits that church.
---Mark_V. on 10/8/11


Cluny //\\What the RCC says you have to do to be saved. Eat Christ, get baptized in water, \\Jesus Himself taught this. Go argue with Him.

Eat Jesus?????

What you get physically from the Eucharist is a small cup of wine and a bread crumb. While we need not argue with Jesus, anyone with common sense and knowledge of scripture would tell you that

"Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do". 1 Cor. 8:8

We do not grow spiritually by eating of foods!
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


Cluny so it is a matter of my custom of perception and yours being different. That clears it up nicely. Thank you.
---Darlene_1 on 10/7/11


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\\Cluny may I please know what you are referring to as the "Church". It seems to me you mean a specific denomination by using the capital "C",if so which one?
---Darlene_1 on 10/7/11\\

You've asked a fair question here, Darlene1.

For the purpose of this discussion on this particular blog, I see "Jerusalem" as referring to the Church in a generic sense.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/11


Cluny may I please know what you are referring to as the "Church". It seems to me you mean a specific denomination by using the capital "C",if so which one?
---Darlene_1 on 10/7/11


\\You say that just because some popes were bad, none of them were anitchrist because you believe a person is the antichrist if he doesn't believe that Jesus came in the flesh. So it cannot be. But you are sadly wrong.\\

Which of the popes have ever denied that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh?

Please be specific.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/11


//Please pray for our Coptic Orthodox Christians and Catholic Christians living Egypt.//

I agree.

//The Bible tells us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.//

I agree.

//...Jerusalem that now is and is in bondage with her children...//

A great reason to pray for her.

//We especially pray for the Christian pastor in Iran who is facing the death penalty for converting to Christianity as well as those brothers and sisters in Egypt.//

I agree.
---Rod4Him on 10/7/11


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\\What the RCC says you have to do to be saved. Eat Christ, get baptized in water, \\

Jesus Himself taught this. Go argue with Him.

\\pay for your sins by saying Hail Mary's,... and the denial that the death of Christ is sufficient to save anyone.\\

The Roman Catholic Church has never taught these things.

But the Bible DOES forbid bearing false winess, as you are doing here.

\\ believing the RCC has the only Truth,\\

Well, YOU think you have the only truth, so I don't see any real difference.

And, to remind you, I'm Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.
---Cluny on 10/7/11


Cluny 3:
6. He will operate until the bright, visible, glorious return of our Lord (v. 8).
7. When Jesus Christ comes, He will destroy the antichrist and gather His faithful people who have not "fallen away" from the Truth of His Word (. 3,8,10-12).
This all means that we are looking for an antichrist that was starting to work in the time of Paul, but was being restrained by the Roman Empire. It would grow in strength in the wake of a massive "falling away" from Jesus inside the christian church and would be revealed unrestrained after the Roman Empire fell. It would be centered somewhere in Western Europe, would become sef-exalting, and would even usurp the authority of God inside His temple, within Christianity.
---Mark_V. on 10/7/11


Cluny, you said,
1. that the Jerusalm in Psa is the Church, show a passage that say's I' denying such a passages.
2. "What "works of Romanism" are you talking about? Please be specific." What the RCC says you have to do to be saved. Eat Christ, get baptized in water, go to mass, pay for your sins by saying Hail Mary's, believing the RCC has the only Truth, and the denial that the death of Christ is sufficient to save anyone.
3. You say that just because some popes were bad, none of them were anitchrist because you believe a person is the antichrist if he doesn't believe that Jesus came in the flesh. So it cannot be. But you are sadly wrong.
---Mark_V. on 10/7/11


Cluny 2: Scripture, 2 Thess. 2,
1. The antichrist would rise as a result of a tremendous falling away (v.3) in the Church before Jesus Christ returns to gather the faithful (v.1).
2. Paul called this antichrist, "the man of sin" "the son of perdition" (v.3) "the mystery of lawlessness (v.7). and "that wicked" (v.8).
3. This "mystery of lawlessness" was already working in Paul's day (v.7) yet it was being restrain (v. 5-7) by Caesars of the Roman Empire.
4. After this restrain was removed (Rome fell in 476 A.D.) the antichrist would be revealed (v. 7,8).
5. This antichrist would take his seat inside "the temple of God' (v.4) which is the Church ( 1 Cor. 3:16, Eph. 2:21). Continue
---Mark_V. on 10/7/11


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\\Jerusalem in Psalms is not the Church.\\

Yes, it is.

Denying it won't change it.

\\1. The just shall live by faith, not by the works of Romanism and \\

What "works of Romanism" are you talking about? Please be specific.

\\2. that the papacy is the Antichrist"\\

What ever sins can be charged to various popes, NONE of them has denied that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, which the Bible says is the spirit of Antichrist.

Jesus did NOT say, "If anyone will not read the Bible, let him be to you as a publican and heathen."

Nor St. Paul write, "The Word of the Living God, the pillar and ground of truth."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/6/11


Ignatius, I will pray for the Copts. That's what you requested. Looks like things got a bit off-topic! :)
---God.is.everywhere on 10/6/11


Jed, your right, Jerusalem in Psalms is not the Church. The Jerusalem was the location where the taberlacle and Ark of the Covenant had found there place. The Church is all genuine believers.
The harlot of Revelation is the RCC, Rome. There was two great truths that stand out in the preaching that brought about the Protestant Reformation,
1. The just shall live by faith, not by the works of Romanism and
2. that the papacy is the Antichrist"
It was a message for Christ and against antichrist. Papal Rome rose to it's defense countering with what is known as the Counter Reformation. A council which convened in 1545 and continued until 1563. Romanism believed in the authority of the Church, The Protestants in that of the Bible.
---Mark_V. on 10/6/11


No the Church on earth now is not the New Jerusalem,the Bible is plain on what it is. Revelation 21,1,2,3 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City,the New Jerusalem,coming down out of heaven from God,prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne say,Now the dwelling of God is with men,and he will live with them. Colossians 1:18,24 the earthly church is a small letter which denotes the people of God his body,not captial Church as in a denomination.
---Darlene_1 on 10/6/11


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Oh God, we pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world who are being persecuted. We ask your protecting angels be surrounding them. We especially pray for the Christian pastor in Iran who is facing the death penalty for converting to Christianity as well as those brothers and sisters in Egypt. Thank you Lord for answering our prayers. In Jesus Name...Amen
---KarenD on 10/6/11


\\I also have never heard that the harlot of Babylon is actually Jerusalem and the Jews. \\

What you're saying is that you have not read the OT prophets for yourself.

\\I think whoever you are learning from has some deep rooted anti-semitism that is distorting Revelation. \\

You mean like the Holy Spirit?

Ask Him for eye salve to wash the scales of dispensationalism off your spiritual sight.

\\The Psalm can only be referring to the earthly Jerusalem.\\

We are to understand the entire Bible as pointing to the figure of Christ, hence this can only refer to the CHURCH.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/6/11


Cluny, I have never heard that teaching before that the earthly church is the New Jerusalem. I always heard heaven referred to as the New Jerusalem. I also have never heard that the harlot of Babylon is actually Jerusalem and the Jews. I think whoever you are learning from has some deep rooted anti-semitism that is distorting Revelation. You should also be aware that Psalm 122 "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem" was written thousands of years before John was ever given the Revelation of the New Jerusalem. The Psalm can only be referring to the earthly Jerusalem.
---Jed on 10/5/11


\\Are you suggesting that the verse "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper that love her." is actually saying to pray for the peace of the church?\\

Yep.

||Wouldn't Jerusalem actually be the earthly manifestation of the heavenly Jerusalem, since heaven is actually referred to as the "New Jersualem"?||

Precisely. The Church is the New, Heavenly Jerusalem. The old, earthly one was condemned by Jesus as the one that killed the prophets and stoned those sent to her.

Who do you think the harlot that sits on 7 hills is? There's only ONE city and people the Bible personified as a harlot, and Jerusalem sits on 7 hills.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/11


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Cluny, I guess I don't understand your answer. Are you suggesting that the verse "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper that love her." is actually saying to pray for the peace of the church? Also, where did you get that the church is the earthly manifestation of the heavenly Jerusalem? Wouldn't Jerusalem actually be the earthly manifestation of the heavenly Jerusalem, since heaven is actually referred to as the "New Jersualem"? Otherwise, wouldn't it be called something else like "the New Church" or something similar?
---Jed on 10/5/11


\\ Why would we need to pray for peace in heaven?\\

Because the earthly manifestation of the Heavenly Jerusalem, namely the Church, is not perfected yet.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/11


Cluny, the verse in Galations that you referenced is exactly the reason why we need to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, the physically earthly Jerusalem. Why would we need to pray for peace in heaven? Isn't that the one place where there is real peace where there is no lying, tears, or sin? Why would we pray for peace in heaven?
---Jed on 10/5/11


Jed, I believe the passages in Psa. 122 is speaking of something completely different then what people think. First of all it was a song of Accents of David. "the House of the Lord" is a term used of the taberacle (Ex. 21:19:34:26: 2 Sam. 12:20) not the temple that would be build by Solomon. "Standing within your gates" Sometime after the tabernacles and ark of the Covenant had arrived in the city of David ( 2 Sam. 6) so David joy was that the ark had found its proper place. The song had reference only to that time for what had just happened. Now does it apply to us today? I don't think so because now we are concern not with Israel only but with every nation who is lost. Yet Israel is important to us.
---Mark_V. on 10/5/11


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\\Cluny, why would you think that it is not talking about the physical Jerusalem?\\

Because Galatians says that the "Jerusalem that now is", that is, earthly, physical, geographical Jerusalem is in bondage with her children. And who do you think her children are?

It goes on to say that CHRISTIANS are children of the Heavenly Jerusalem which is free.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/11


Yes I do believe it means the earthly Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the seat of the throne of David,God's choosen King and one who is in the bloodline of Christ. It is also the Spiritual seat God established for a place of worship and the fact it was destroyed doesn't change the fact of God's appointing that place to be important to his people. Besides which what affects Israel affects the USA and its Christians for we are Spiritually tied to it by God for there was where Christ died for us,and politically tied by treaty. The New Jerusalem which will come down out of heaven needs no prayer for peace for God is its light and peace.
---Darlene_1 on 10/4/11


i have a friend here who is Coptic. his immediate family is here,, his other family is in Egypt.

Lord, give them the strength and comfort to endure to the end. give us the wisdom to know real persecution is coming our way and to remain at peace in you.
---aka on 10/4/11


Cluny, why would you think that it is not talking about the physical Jerusalem? Have you ever read the chapter of Psalm 122 where the verse "pray for the peace of Jerusalem" is found? Read it and you will see it is talking about the actual physical city of Jerusalem.
---Jed on 10/4/11


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\\The Bible tells us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem\\

You don't think that means the physical earthly Jerusalem that now is and is in bondage with her children, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/11


The Bible tells us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Let us not forget that as we pray for all persecuted Christians. More evil has been carried out under the name of religion than we could even imagine. The true God of creation,Father of Christ would never condone persecution of any person who serves him.
---Darlene_1 on 10/3/11


Amen.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/11


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