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Ministry Of Law And Spirit

How does the ministry of the law differ from the ministry of the Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:8f)

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 ---lee1538 on 10/3/11
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Kathr4453 //WHEN did God the Father TEACH you first before coming to Christ?

Probably from my birth His love toward me was through my parents and others.

My concept of God was that He existed but way up in the clouds someplace. I did not have any concept of what it meant to be born spiritually in Him, nor did I realize that His very presence could be part of my life.

Having Adentists living on one side of me and Roman Catholics on the other, I viewed the Christian faith basically as an ethical system in which the good make it to heaven and the bad to hell. Nothing about salvation as a gift or about the righteousness that is ours in Christ.

Glad to see that you can be an inquiring person.
---lee1538 on 10/17/11


Women can READ too Trav. And God teaches WOMEN TOO.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/11


Usually more and better. (Wife is teacher, Daughter a Master of Science Speech). (I've learned some...not all) ha.

Witness, another women who studies Hebrew and "shares" researched finds with proof/witnesses....multiple. Avoiding contentious Authoritive opinion.
Woman is an example of facts vs theology opinion.
Proverbs (1-26)
1 The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom, in her tongue is the law of kindness.
---Trav on 10/17/11


Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/11


The sum of Heb 11 is:
39 these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


---Trav on 10/17/11

Exactly Trav, tehy received NOT teh Promise of teh Holy Spirit that indwelt believers.

What do you think it was that they RECEIVED NOT? What was the Promise they RECEIVED NOT.

Galatians state..the PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT!

Women can READ too Trav. And God teaches WOMEN TOO.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/11


Trav, if in fact Romans 6-8 is taught in the OT too, please show us chapter and verse and book.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11

The Abel,Enoch,Noah,Abraham, David,Joseph,Moses etc...had faith.. no promise stated. We have promise stated....faith required.

You surmise Resurrected Lazarus didn't believe Christ was Christ? The Maid?
You refuse to obey Apostles,describing contentious women. Why would you honor OT Prophets the Apostles honored?

The sum of Heb 11 is:
39 these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

---Trav on 10/17/11




In the Old Covenant they were looking forward to JESUS CHRIST in symbol.

In the New Covenant we have JESUS CHRIST in the flesh and He died and rose again.

No one but JESUS lived perfect enough to earn heaven. So while the authority and circumstance have changed Salvation is only by Grace.

When we die today we sleep until the Coming of JESUS at the first resurrection.
---Samuel on 10/16/11


Trav, if in fact Romans 6-8 is taught in the OT too, please show us chapter and verse and book.

You believe in the OT God told Israel to die to the Law so they could be married to Christ, before His death and resurrection?

That's an interesting Concept. They were required to shed the blood of Bulls and goats to COVER sin, all the way up to the Passover the day Jesus died on the cross. So why wasn't it ok to continue to shed the blood of bulls and goats after His resurrection.

Do you even understand Hebrews at all? No New Covnant was in place until after Jesus death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Paul never said'
"Paul teaches in Romans 6-8 that THIS GRACE was NOT already available to OT Saints".
Your introducing Dispensationalism, from Scofield reference Bible. That despensation of grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ. Wrong.
Grace and the gospel are very much Old Testament concepts.
Hebrews 4:1-2 says
"Therefore, since the promise of entering His (Christ's) rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did," but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith" Also check Galations 3:8,9.
---Mark_V. on 10/15/11


Paul teaches in Romans 6-8 that THIS GRACE was NOT already available to OT Saints?
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11

??
The one who dispenses can give it to who he will.
Rom 7 answers.

1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth, but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
---Trav on 10/14/11


In teh OT, before Christ birth and death and resurrection, SAINTS went to a place called Abraham's Bosom, and were not asleep IN CHRIST, as we are today.

The Promise of the Spirit is said in Hebrews 11, was what they died without receiving. They still were saved.

We wouldn't have a NEW COBENANT of the Promise of the Spirit, if the NEW Covenant was inforce from Adam and Eve's fall to Christ.

The Spirit of the LIFE of Christ is His RISEN LIFE. Since Christ had not died and rose again in the OT, no one was Born again of the Spirit of the Life of Christ.

Paul teaches in Romans 6-8 that THIS GRACE was NOT already available to OT Saints?
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11




Kathr, I agree with Trav in his answer concerning the Old T rebirth. And Poppa Bear never said people in the Old T. were not born again. you have to get your facts right. You are still twisting the words of others.
Look Kathr, stop all the smoke screen. Look at what you are saying. Repent to God and ask for forgivness. Ask Him to clean your heart of all that corruption. Beg this time for forgiveness, you didn't humble the last time, do it now. He will forgive you. If you don't, you will remain the same, and guess what? no one forced you.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


Papa Bear, I'm glad you see that OT people were not Born Again
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11

Glad he sees?
Some most surely were Born Again under the Old Covenant.
Lazarus....the young maid,and the OT saints sleeping...
Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Matthew 27:52
the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
---Trav on 10/14/11


Papa Bear, I'm glad you see that OT people were not Born Again as some here teach with their Covenant of Grace doctrine.

OT Kings Prophets and Priests IN ISRAEL were anointed with the Holy Spirit upon them, as we see God took away the Holy Spirit and Kingship from Saul.

David sinned, and prayed, Please don't take the Holy Spirit from me. God did not. God made a Covenant with David called the Davidic Covenant. In that Covenant, God promised David He would not take the Holy Spirit from him, but would allow men to scorge him if needed re SIN. .

In the NT we are promised to be sealed with teh Holy Spirit until the day of Redemption. However we are not promised that because of the Davidic Covenant, but the NEW COVENANT!
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


Kathr, why do you say words I never said? How can you continue to do this and live with yourself? I said God choose Israel over other nations. I never said He choose to save them all. He choose to speak to them and bring the gospel to them first instead of other nations. They rejected the gospel. While some were saved by grace through faith, the others were not. No one goes into the kingdom of God without the Lord first drawing them to Himself by bringing them to life, and giving them to Christ. People in a lost condition cannot of themselves create the love of Christ in their hearts. Only God can do that. So if you are going to quote me, at least copy and paste what I said. You don't have to lie.
---Mark_V. on 10/12/11


If Saul was an elect, and receive the Spirit by grace, then Saul should be proof enough for you that we cannot MOCK Gods grace and get away with it. Saul was an elect king and endowed with Gods Spirit to fulfill the office of king, speaking nothing of salvation, just like when God endowed some Israelites with His Spirit giving some distinct gifts/skills to build the arc of the covenant. The New Testament function of the Holy Spirit is an institution/function set forth by Jesus as a future promise after He ascended. The NT function of the Spirit regenerates us, making us children of God, inheritors of the Kingdom, justifying us by faith in the works of the cross, and sealing us with the Spirit as a promise/deposit/guarantee.
---Poppa_Bear on 10/12/11


Poppa Bear, Can you list tall teh covenants in scripture?

I can,and can tell you what each is and what each consist.

Also God has clearly called tehm COVENANTS.

There is no COVENANT called the Covenant of Grace.

You can load up all the scripture you want, and I will tell you which Covenant it belongs to!
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


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Kath, BOGUS false Covenant of Grace not found in scripture, Romans 3, 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes
through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified
freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
24 says, we are FREELY justified by His what?, His GRACE, this is a small foundational peace of that so called bogus covenant not found in scripture. Calvin was only a man, get into Gods grace, every book except 4 in the NT mention Grace, 129 times, important, maybe?
---Poppa_Bear on 10/12/11


By the WORKS OF THE LAW no flesh shall be justified.
But where is Faith called one of the works of the Law? Lets see what GOD SAID:

Galatians 3:12
And the law is not of faith:
Hummmmm

OK so the Law is NOT of Faith, and by the works of the Law, faith not being included in this LAW, where on earth do these false teachers conclude faith is a work?
Well, its from the BOGUS false Covenant of Grace not found in scripture, but a made up Covenant by Calvin to deceive all who would follow his philosophy. You are saved by the finished works of Christ, not anything YOU DID! Our faith is in HIS WORK on the Cross!
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


God chose the PHYSICAL descendents of Jacob, Isaac, Abraham to be God's spokspeople on earth and to bring in the Messiah.

He did not Chose the Chinese to do this, or the descendents of Ishmael, or the Japanese.

God also die not chose all 12 tribes to bring in the Messiah but only the Tribe of Judah.

But those are the PHYSICAL descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And YES, because of God's Promise to Abraham, God had mercy on ISRAEL and brought HIS PEOPLE out of bondage.

Yet many died in the wilderness called the provocation.

Paul too warns us about this in Corinthians.

SO either one can REBELL, fail to enter the Promise..Heb 3-4 and so on ans STILL BE SAVED???

Are you kidding?
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


He choose Israel over others, choose every person He used to bring the gospel to others, so that in the ages to come, all of His elect would hear the Word, believe by faith, and be saved. It is about God Kathr, not about ourselves. He is sovereign always.
---Mark_V. on 10/12/11

MarkV, what you fail to realize is, if God Chose ALL of Israel to be saved, then why were they LOST? One cannot live under LAW and Grace at the same time. They had to die to the Law to receive SALVATION. Romans 10 clearly state Israel went about establishing their own righteousness apart from Christ.

It appears God failed to REALLY save them Seeing they were all pronounced GUILTY. How can YOU insure You too will not be pronounced GUILTY in the end?
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


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Why do you speak of free-will as though it is evil?

What happened to Saul when he used his free will to do evil? Remember the SPirit was with Saul! GOd took his Spirit away and sent Saul an evil spirit to torment him. Why? Disobedience!!

If Saul was an elect, and receive the Spirit by grace, then Saul should be proof enough for you that we cannot MOCK Gods grace and get away with it! God was grieved that He made Saul king. Obviously the Lord DOES indeed change his mind.
---CraigA on 10/12/11


Kathr, there is nothing wrong in what you said for the exception of,

"God NEVER asked me to openly BRAG that I have become His ELECT and too bad for you!"

God never ask us to brag we are of the Elect. What we are teaching is not about us, but about what God has ordained. His right to choose whom He wills to choose. You in return want man to have that right. The whole of Scripture speaks of the awesomeness of God, and the failures of man. He choose Israel over others, choose every person He used to bring the gospel to others, so that in the ages to come, all of His elect would hear the Word, believe by faith, and be saved. It is about God Kathr, not about ourselves. He is sovereign always.
---Mark_V. on 10/12/11


God askes of us to speak for is His LOVE for sinners, and warn of his coming wrath..John 3:16. John 3:17 says He did not come in the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

God NEVER asked me to openly BRAG that I have become His ELECT and too bad for you!

God askes us to preach the Gospel, to lift up His Son as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. He gave us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and has given us the Gospel of Reconcilliation.

Paul said, GOD FORBID that I would preach anything except Christ and Him Crucified..

I would rather follow Paul on this issue, THE WAY HE FOLLOWED CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


Kathr, I never push Calvin on anyone. Calvin's teachings on salvation are all from Scripture. We don't teach Calvin, we teach what God has to say in His Word. You speak for the power of man over an Omnipotent God, I teach the power of an Omnipotent God over sinful man. You lift up man with their free will, I lifted up God for His free will over sinful man. You put your faith in the ability of man to confess Christ, I put my faith in the Ability of God to choose whom He wants to have mercy on. It is not easy to change for you, and not easy for thousands to change either. They embrace free will, because their humanity does not want to give up the last thing they can hold on to. Their free choice. Until you do that, you will remain a skeptic.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


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MarkV, absolutely correct. Salvation is all of God. Christ was FORORDAINED before the foundation of the world to save sinners.

Jesus shed His blood for the forgivness of Sin. I cannot save myself by sheding my own blood to atone for my sin, because I am a sinner.

GRACE is so wonderful, because GRACE is our identification with Christ in death and resurrection life, a GIFT that no one but God Himself can Give. NEW LIFE IN CHRIST! Old things pass away, ALL things become New.

I cannot lose my salvation and I believe in Predestination.

BUT I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE CALVIN DOCTRINE!
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


Salvation is all of the Lord.
He brings life
He grants faith and repentance.
He opens our eyes and ears
He gives us a new heart that is towards Christ.
He guides us through life influening us to what is right and what is wrong.
He baptizes us into One body in Christ Jesus.
He indwells believers with the Spirit.
He seals believers and sustains them to the Day of the Lord.
So stop taking credit for your salvation. You did not deserve what you God by grace. Without God you can do nothing.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


I also did not see anyone mention Ellen in any answer either.

But wasn't this blog for the purpose of ragging on SDA's and Ellen?

What goes around comes around!

You can't point your finger at another if you are guilty of the exact same thing.

Both you and Leej PUSH Calvin on people. Leej Especially...

"Oh you MUST read the Institutes of Calvin." Can you back that with scripture.

The ONLY thing I must read if God's Word!
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


If you really knew anything at all about Calvin and his theological beliefs you would have to admit that just about everything he believed in as far as Christian doctrine was concerned was based solely upon the Bible or the theology of his predecessors.leej//

Exactly leej, I know that, and know his predecessors were GNOSTICS, and RCC, of which CAlvin never really left many of teh RCC beliefs. Leej, I know more about Calvin than you may think!


Plus he was a murderer. Ellen never murdered anyone.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


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//I have not seen one person mention Calvin in any answer.

I am really doubtful if Kathy has really any substantial knowledge of Calvin or what his theology. All of her knowledge of him (or any of the church fathers or reformers) is second hand.

Calvin's beliefs are truly based upon the Bible and most of that from previous theologians. His works, the Institutes of the Christian Religion has stood the test of time and will continue to have a strong influence on the Christian faith.

Christan posted that the problem lies in the realm of 'free will'. Calvin believed God preordains or predestines His elect, that salvation is wholly of God apart from man's acceptance of the gift of salvation.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11


Kathr, I have not seen one person mention Calvin in any answer. No one has quoted from him, or has mentioned the W.C.F. at any time. What you fail to understand, is the Word of God, so you reject most of it, because it does not make sense to you and the false doctrines about Christ. It is too much for you to grasp. So you whin and complain about Calvin, when he is not even talked about. You must have dreams of this man or he must have hurt you at some point in your life, as if he was married to you. He must have abused you in one of your dreams of him. Otherwise, you would not talk about him all the time.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


--Or is it simply that you believe salvation is solely in your hands and not an act of God?
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


Its both. We will NEVER deserve salvation, but God has warned us not to mock him with the grace He has given us. If you think there arent conditions to Gods grace, then youre simply not reading ALL of the word of God. There are hundreds are warnings for believers! Israel mocked God over and over again and look what happened to them.
---CraigA on 10/10/11


I would agree that everything apart from the Bible should be viewed as a commentary or simply an educated viewpoint from those whom God has called into the ministry of teaching.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


You're certainly not implying every commentary is an educted viewpoint of those God has called into the ministry of teaching, are you???

FORTUNATELY those who belong to the Lord have been given the GIFT of Discernment to knoow not every educated viewpoint is of the Lord.

There are many EDUCATED FALSE TEACHERS.

But, some are so impressed with BIG WORDS and ooooh and aaaawah over high and lofty double talk.

And these people attracted to this actually believe themselves to be EDUCATED!
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


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1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

That one is a stench in Calvinist's nostrils.


Leej, Christ is made unto us Wisdom, and as long as you look to another for wisdom, you have seered your own conscience to receive the Wisdom that comes through Christ ALONE!!
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


Craig //Its not just them.
The same could also be said for the Westminster Confession of Faith and Doctrines \and Covenants.

That is true since one of the articles of the WCF declares the pope to be the anti-Christ was changed so as not to offend Roman Catholics.

One of our political candidates (Bachmann) resigned from the Wisconsin Lutheran Synod in order to run for office because they kept the older version.

I would agree that everything apart from the Bible should be viewed as a commentary or simply an educated viewpoint from those whom God has called into the ministry of teaching.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


//The problem with you Calvinists is the Bible does not support your unique viewpoints, so you had to make the writings of John Calvin the same authority as Holy Writ itself.

If you really knew anything at all about Calvin and his theological beliefs you would have to admit that just about everything he believed in as far as Christian doctrine was concerned was based solely upon the Bible or the theology of his predecessors.

Still would like to know as to what your point of disagreement really is. Is it the view that God is sovereign, that He has preordained or predestined those who will believe before the foundation of the world?

Or is it simply that you believe salvation is solely in your hands and not an act of God?
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


--The problem with you Adventists is that the Bible does not support your unique viewpoints, so you had to make the writings of Ellen White the same authority as Holy Writ itself.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11

Its not just them.
The same could also be said for the Westminster Confession of Faith and Doctrines \and Covenants. Any time we value the interpretations of a man over what the word of God plainly says we put ourselves in jeopardy.

The Lord has no need ot modern day prophets and men with NEW visions. He spoke with prophets long ago, and then He spoke to us thru his Son. We have all we need!
---CraigA on 10/10/11


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The problem with you Adventists is that the Bible does not support your unique viewpoints, so you had to make the writings of Ellen White the same authority as Holy Writ itself.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11

AND The problem with you Calvinists is that the Bible does not support your unique viewpoints, so you had to make the writings of John Calvin the same authority as Holy Writ itself.


One has no power to point out the spec in another's eye UNTIL the LOG is first pulled out of there own.

God will not be mocked!
---kathr4453 on 10/10/11


Jerry//And you continue to prove that yours is indeed a desperately wicked heart.

One with a wicked heart does not attempt to point out the false teachings of those who claim those who love the Lord with all their hearts, obey Him, will have mark of the beast upon them if they do not observe the Jewish Sabbath and/or the Levitical dietary laws.

The problem with you Adventists is that the Bible does not support your unique viewpoints, so you had to make the writings of Ellen White the same authority as Holy Writ itself.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


Francis //.... because he who said/wrote thou shall not kill also said/ wrote remember the sabbath day.

God said/wrote TO WHOM should "remember" the Sabbath day?????

The answer is from the previous verse - 8:2 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

When were Gentile Christians slaves in Egypt?

If you truly believe you should observe the Jewish Sabbath then why NOT also the feast of unleavend bread - also commanded?

Ex 12:17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute FOREVER.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


There is always an issue of the word ( letter) of the law, and the intent ( spirit) of the law
Example, The letter of the law says thou shall not commit adultery. the spirit or intent of the law is sexual purity of both mind and body. Job says: Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes, why then should I think upon a maid?

and Jesus said: Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The spirit of the law, does not erase the letter of the law, but creates a condition of LOVE where by we are able to keep the letter with a pure heart
---Francis on 10/8/11


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Then there is the letter of the law as relating to the law of Moses (the ministration of death) wherein is death. The law of Moses (the ministration of death ) demands that whenever one sins, there must be the death of an animal as the substitute for that person death, as a figure of Jesus who would take that death.
But the spirit of that law, the intent of that law is to show that through the death of Jesus we have life everlasting
---Francis on 10/8/11


Lee: "I would rather trust my own heart then put my faith in a false prophet"

And you continue to prove that yours is indeed a desperately wicked heart. Francis gave several scriptural references to support his position, while all you can come up with is the same old irrelevant and unsubstantiated lie that you think EGW to be a false prophet. You are the false one here, Lee, and you should be ashamed of yourself for such childish, unchristlike behavior.
---jerry6593 on 10/8/11


Very true, but I would rather trust my own heart then put my faith in a false prophet. And that is what John Calvin was, even murdered annabaptists who believed in believers baptism vs infant baptism.

Our Relationship is with God through Christ. And when someone tells you to put the Institutes of Calvin ABOVE scripture or the Lord Himself, not only is that legalism, but FALSE teaching.

It's IDOLOTRY and breaks the first commandment.

How often Calvinists will encourage you to Leave Christ and His word to become a CALVINIST.

Sorry, I'm a CHRISTIAN, meaning a follower of CHRIST, and HIS WORD and SPIRIT!

Calvins institutes are not God's Word empowered by the Holy Spirit, only God's word is Spirit and life.
---kathr4453 on 10/8/11


Francis, again I say, why don't you do what is right in your heart? You don't want to trust your conscience that's ok. I never want to encourage you to go against your conscience, what you feel is sin. But don't judge me for what God the Spirit reveals to my conscience. We give you the Word of God, and you will do what you feel is right. It's your decision, and you will be judge by that decision, either good or bad. I don't make that judgment. What I know is what God teaches me, and it teaches me that we are not under the Law. And we cannot be condemn by the Law. And if we are not under grace through faith, then a person remains condemned for not been able to keep the whole law, and needs Christ works to atone for his failure to keep the law.
---Mark_V. on 10/8/11


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the Law was written on stone. most transgression of the law ended in stoning.
****

GODS Holy just and perfect Laws were written on stone ...of course they had LETTERS!!!

the letter of the law was written by Moses aka mosaic laws ...that is the WRITTEN civil ordinances (613 of them) which were ALSO "written with letters too" LOL

the letter of the law refers to the 613 written laws ABOUT Gods 10 perfect Holy Spiritual Laws

GOD did not GIVE the 613 laws not matter how one attempts to sell that lie

Gods Holy 10 commandments are the Spiritual Laws of God without those one cannot be righteous or ever judge in Gods Kingdom to come
---Rhonda on 10/8/11


--If you believe out of your own free will as you say, then your salvation is by your own works.--Mark_V

Im sorry Mark, but scripture states that faith is NOT a work.
It doesnt matter whether or not YOU consider it a work. God does not.

And he requires faith from us in order for us to be justified and saved.
---CraigA on 10/9/11


1 Cor.3:8 is speaking of the Old Testament Law as compared to the New Testament Law of the Spirit. The old laws were commandments which if these rules were broken the penalty was death, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life. Now the New Laws, which supersede the old laws, are Commandments which direct us to no longer take revenge but instead to forgive and to love the enemies, and pray for them. In this way no longer will two eyes be lost, two tooths be lost, or two lives lost, but only one. And the guilty will come to know that there is a God, for when they should have rightly been condemned, instead they were given mercy and cannot deny buty to thank the Merciful One above whom has shiown such unspeakable grace.
---Eloy on 10/9/11


//We cannot trust our heart or thoughts: Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Very true, but I would rather trust my own heart then put my faith in a false prophet. And that is what olde Ellen White was, even got booted out of a church that preached the gospel when they refused to believe her visions were from God.

Sorry but Jesus did not come back in October 1844 as she proclaimed nor did anything verifiable happen in the heavenly realm.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


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--Mark_V. on 10/7/11
How do we know what SIN IS?
We cannot trust our heart or thoughts: Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

It cannot be by what seems right to us:
Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

It cannot be by our conscience: Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding.

We know what is SIN BY THE LAW: Romans 3:20 for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Committing adultery, murder is just a sin as is not keeping the sabbath. because he who said/wrote thou shall not kill also said/ wrote remember the sabbath day
---Francis on 10/7/11


John 5:17-18 "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11
The new covenant does not start untill jesus died. You have been deceived to believe that the sabbath is not part of the New Covenant. If you read isaiah 6 you will see that the sabbath continues into new earth. But no one can deny that it is part fo the old. SO If according to your nonesense Jesus broke the sabbath, that would mean he SINNED. FOOLISHNESS to even Suggest that jesus would break ONE law of His fathers.
---Francis on 10/7/11


Francis //question: HOD DID GOD cease FROM HIS WORK:

Easy enough question that has a clear answer in Scripture!

John 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath (to the Adventist, God's most holiest commandment!), but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


Francis, It would be wrong for me to tell you to go against conscience if you believe it is sin to not do Saturday Sabbath. That is why I never tell anyone what day to worship or what to eat. When I speak about the law it's not to make anyone go against conscience. It's to show what the law means to us. But all of you want us to go against our conscious.
"Conscience, I say, not your own, but that of the other. "for why is my liberty judged by another man's Conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." You all judge evil of us because of your conscience which is wrong.
---Mark_V. on 10/7/11


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Haz27 on 10/6/11
FOOT WASHING: John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

This as any one can tell is very different than spreading the gospel.

SABBATH AND HEBREWS 4
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.

question: HOD DID GOD cease FROM HIS WORK:

Hebrews 4:4 And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

So when those of us who belife do enter rest AS GOD DID, We stop all our work ON THE 7TH DAY
---Francis on 10/7/11


trav //If you were a teacher of the Old you'd have the same dilema you have with the New Covenant. Determining the designated recipients/participants of it.

Easy to see that the recipients and participants are all those who are born spiritually after believing and acknowledging from the heart & mouth Jesus as Lord and Savior.

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


Francis:
You spoke of the SDA foot washing to deal with commandment breaking. And you mentioned that God said nothing about the consequences if you missed out doing the foot washing.

Had you considered the foot washing (John 13:10) is speaking of the gospel?

Eph 6:15 "your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace"

Rom 10:15 "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things"

Isa 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace...salvation..."
---Haz27 on 10/6/11


Francis your concerned about Sabbath but your looking only in the physical. This won't help in understanding.

Consider Hebrews 4.
"Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them, but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest....those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of UNBELIEF....Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of UNBELIEF"

We enter that rest through believeing on Jesus.
---Haz27 on 10/6/11


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. The reason is SDA's "Saturday Sabbath"

---Mark_V. on 10/5/
I do not think that SDA has anything to do with making saturday ( THE 7TH DAY ) the sabbath. I give that glory to God who created in 6 days and rested on the 7th.

What events do you think can change the fact that God created in 6 days and rested, blessed, hallowed, sanctified and commanded the 7th day ( satirday) as a day of rest?
---Francis on 10/6/11


If I were a teacher under the Old Covenant law, I would indeed teach what Jesus told this Jewish person.
But you ignore the fact that the church is under the New covenant and not the Old.

Galatians 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
---lee1538 on 10/5/11

If you were a teacher of the Old you'd have the same dilema you have with the New Covenant. Determining the designated recipients/participants of it.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

You've skipped ahead leaving some sheep behind you skippy.
---Trav on 10/6/11


"If I were a teacher under the Old Covenant law, I would indeed teach what Jesus told this Jewish person. But you ignore the fact that the church is under the New covenant and not the Old."
lee1538 on 10/5/11

Therefore, you would not even teach as Paul does?
For he teaches this: Ephesians 6:1_2 "Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandment with promise,)"


When are you going to start actually reading the Bible and praying for understanding?
For you clearly speak nonsense, going even against Paul and making a rift where there is none!
Mark 3:25.
---Nana on 10/6/11


If the 10 commandments are the ministry of death and comdemnation then what is Rev. 12:17, Rev. 22:14 and Matt 15:1-9 all about??
---barb on 10/5/11


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Francis, you said,

"all of this foolishness against the law for ONE REASON"

That is what I also said, but I added one word, all of this foolishness "about" the Law is for one reason only, to bring forth the Saturday Sabbath. All the talk about the Law, and all the passages given are a smoke screen to present the SDA's Saturday Sabbath. No other reason since all of you are sinners just like everyone else. "For all come short of the glory of God." but you think that will get you in, but under the Law you cannot get into the Kingdom of Heaven, you need Christ. So that could not be the reason you talk about the law. The reason is SDA's "Saturday Sabbath"
---Mark_V. on 10/5/11


//God is his infinite wisdom determined that we should never forget that he is the creator, and so he gave us ONE specific day to rest,

Foolish? And God in His infinite wisdom forgot to instruct His Holy Spirit who penned scripture to command His Church to observe the OT sabbath? Nothing in either the New Testament or in church history.

Sorry but your position ignores the decision of the Jerusalem Council Acts 15 as well as the teachings found in the early church writings.

Your foolishness is based upon the undefensible teachings of an old woman who was booted out of a church that preached the gospel.
---lee1538 on 10/5/11


Nana - Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
---
If I were a teacher under the Old Covenant law, I would indeed teach what Jesus told this Jewish person. But you ignore the fact that the church is under the New covenant and not the Old.

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

When are you going to look onto Jesus and trust in His righteousness and not strive to build your own? Romans 10:3
---lee1538 on 10/5/11


all of this foolishness against the law for ONE REASON

God is his infinite wisdom determined that we should never forget that he is the creator, and so he gave us ONE specific day to rest, gather for worship and celebrate his creative power, and satan has convinced many that they should not take THE SABBATH DAY OF REST and worship in the name of their creator
---Francis on 10/5/11


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"Francis //2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones....

Thanks for admitting at last that the 10 commandments are described in the Bible as the ministry of death and condemnation (3:9).

It follows then that those who pitch the OT law or even the Decalogue are advocates of the ministry of death.

The law cannot save one or even please God."
---lee1538 on 10/4/11

Paul did said that and also that he is dead and buried with Christ. can't escape death, hey?
But Jesus said:
Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
---Nana on 10/5/11


"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.'" (Romans 7:7)

Covetousness is emotional, not outward behavior. So, here's an example of how the law can help us to spot something that is wrong inside of us. So, the law can help show which feelings and desires and emotions are wrong, by saying no to things that our wrong stuff would have us doing. And then we can refuse to obey these wrong feelings etc. even when they might have us doing what is not obviously a sin.

And, "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/5/11


TEN COMMANDMENTS, IMPERFECT LAW)...
more_excellent_way on 10/5/11
reconsider:
Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:

maybe you are talking about LAW OF MOSES:Hebrews 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.


--lee1538 on 10/4/11
The ten commandments which Moses held did not shine with glory, it was Moses' face
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be done away:
---Francis on 10/5/11


Beloved, so much religion and so little Jesus here it seems sometimes. John 8, The woman caught in Adultery would seem to give us a picture of this difference of the letter and Spirit lived out in the ministry of our Lord. The Pharisees were ready to cling to the letter/law, but Jesus used a different measuring stick to evaluate the problem and it was stamped with the Spirit of the Gospel full of grace that He brought to the world. Who would you stand with here, Jesus, who offered a refuge, or the Pharisees who offered a stoning?
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/5/11


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The FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS were given to the JEWS (the TEN COMMANDMENTS, IMPERFECT LAW)...1 Corinthians 13:10 "but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away".

James 1:25 "But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty,....he shall be blessed in his doing".

If we decide to put aside our roughneck ways and make our spirit compatible with God's spirit, then, because we allow ourselves to be guided by SPIRIT instead of the TEXT OF LAW, we can "draw near" ("through which we draw near to God", Hebrews 7:19). The JESUS COMMANDMENTS, "which came later than the law" (Hebrews 7:28) place us under the PERFECT "law" (a conflict of terms it offers so much LIBERTY).
---more_excellent_way on 10/5/11


Francis //2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones....

Thanks for admitting at last that the 10 commandments are described in the Bible as the ministry of death and condemnation (3:9).

It follows then that those who pitch the OT law or even the Decalogue are advocates of the ministry of death.

The law cannot save one or even please God.
---lee1538 on 10/4/11


2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

The occasion of the giving of the law was very glorious. Moses face was shining so that no one could look at him.
If that occasion when Moses face was shining was glorious, and moses face did stop shining after a while, how much more glorious is the occasion of the giving of spirit of christ /salvation by the death of Christ which will never pass away
---Francis on 10/4/11


2 Cor. 3:5-11 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant,, not of the letter but of the Spirit.

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone(the 10 commandments), came with such glory the Israelites could not gaze at Moses face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have more glory? ....


For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
---lee1538 on 10/4/11


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2 Cor. 3:5-11 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant,, not of the letter but of the Spirit.

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone(the 10 commandments), came with such glory the Israelites could not gaze at Moses face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have more glory? ....


For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
---lee1538 on 10/4/11


//The letter kills. The Spirit gives life. //

the Law was written on stone. most transgression of the law ended in stoning.

the Spirit brings strength and comfort. not a license to transgress, but grace, because our flesh still transgresses as the flesh and Spirit war.
---aka on 10/4/11


Differ? They are ONE. Paul wrote about this in the most perfect way,

Galatians 3:21-25

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
---christan on 10/4/11


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