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What Are The Covenants

What are the differences between the OLD COVENANT and the NEW COVENANT? When did the OLD COVENANT end and the COVENANT begin?

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 ---Rob on 10/6/11
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Lee: As usual, I give you scripture, and you reply with non-scriptural theory. The fact is that the Bible makes no mention whatever as to the change in content of the law in the New Covenant, neither does it make any statement about your "Sunday Sabbath" conjecture. You would be wise to begin reading the Bible and OBEYING its precepts, rather than always looking for escuses to disobey God.
---jerry6593 on 10/21/11


I sometimes want to believe

that divorce is the will of God as He desires that we grow spiritually in Him and be
free of the burden an unbeliever can bring upon us.
---lee1538 on 10/14/11


This is such a personal thing. Can only look too the guiding-lines. And hang on for the life ride myself.

GOD did divorce/put away. For specified reasons. Adultery....
Today is probably is or maybe approaching the days of Noe...

Divorce for any reason and every reason. Marriage mockery,debasement and dead end lineage/heritages. Men marrying men....women marrying women.

The degraded Churches preforming....approving...or doing nothing. Sheep & Goat?
---Trav on 10/17/11


Paul asserts that the NC is with the house of Israel and Judah - i.e., Jews. If you want to be a part of the NC, you must be "graffed in" to that house (Rom 11).
---jerry6593 on 10/16/11

I.E. Judean/Judah?
Jerry,
Judah/jews are one specific family name of 13 composing Israel. Find that the Northern House of Israel (one stick of two) was put away/divorced....."under the law".
This house fills the grey in,when one realizes that Romans is discussing them (marriage laws) and New Covenant Laws.
Realizing this, also connects them by Prophet/witness to the old. Two Sticks in Ezekiel for example.
---Trav on 10/17/11


jerry //Only Sabbaterians believe in making holy the 7th day of the week" Apparently, God is one of them as He is the ONLY one who can make a day holy, and He chose to make the Sabbath day holy.
----
Oh! your god is a Sabbaterian? Go back to bed, obviously you need the sleep.

While Jews and Judaizers hold the Sabbath to be holy as a day God rested from His creation, Christians (including some prominent SDA theologians & historians) believe there is much historical evidence to show Sunday worship was a universal practice of all the churchs outside the land of Israel by the beginning of the 2nd century.

Sorry for the inconvenient truth but we all know Ellen was not full of it!
---lee1538 on 10/16/11


Jerry //The only mention of the New Covenant in the New Testament is in Hebrews, where Paul quotes from the OT (Jeremiah) that the NC LAW is written on the heart rather than in stone - a change of location with no mention of a change in the law.

Ridiculous to say the least! All 613 laws including those God gave only to Israel were written on believers heart?

You really do not know much about the Bible, do you?

If you did you would know the Old Covenant was a covenant UNLIKE the one God made with Israel when they came out of Egypt. (Hebrews 8:9)and became obsolete (8:13).

Your view that the New covenant is but a rehash of the Old is totally ridiculous and cannot be support by any recognizable exegesis of the Bible.
---lee1538 on 10/16/11




jerry /./If you want to be a part of the NC, you must be "graffed in" to that house (Rom 11).

And if grafted in, would Galatians then apply to me, that Christ redeemed us from the law? Perhaps these verses are some that you find troubling.

Gal. 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Are not all Christians, both Gentiles & Jews, redeemed from the law?

Your argument is really circular in nature and ridiculous.

BTW are you not troubled that there is virtually not even a hint of a command to observe the Jewish Sabbath in any of the New Testament.
---lee1538 on 10/16/11


Lee: "Gal. 4:4-5 ...to REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW,...
The [sic] effectively say Galatians is not true as Christ did NOT redeem anyone from the law."

He didn't. In the verse you quoted, Christ redeemed "THOSE" (Jews) from the penalty of their sins - NOT FROM THE LAW.

The only mention of the New Covenant (NC) in the New Testament (NT) is in Hebrews, where Paul quotes from the OT (Jeremiah) that the NC LAW is written on the heart rather than in stone - a change of location with no mention of a change in the law.

Further, Paul asserts that the NC is with the house of Israel and Judah - i.e., Jews. If you want to be a part of the NC, you must be "graffed in" to that house (Rom 11).
---jerry6593 on 10/16/11


trav - totally agree with your position and insight.

I sometimes want to believe that divorce is the will of God as He desires that we grow spiritually in Him and be free of the burden an unbeliever can bring upon us.

God does control the circumstances and may provide a way out of a bad situation.
---lee1538 on 10/14/11


trav - I would not take her back if I were you.
---lee1538 on 10/13/11

Ha. Have been married 35 years. But, in those circumstances I wouldn't take her back.
GOD did not break his law either. Though he appealed for North House of Israel to come back.
I fall short of being......

7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
---Trav on 10/14/11


For the record, the historical reformed-predestination view believes that mans responsible for confession, faith and repentance while at the same time God is still Sovran and none come without His election. Though both are conflicting to us, in TULIP they are not reconciled, they are simply left as a mystery for God to keep hidden or reveal in His good time. When attempting to say it is simply this-way or that-way, and they are wrong and we are write with something that is Gods mystery can become divisive. I believe that God is Sovran, and yet I believe that we are called to preach the Gospel to all nations, I believe both wholeheartedly because I dont want to deny His mystery of election, or His commission to all believers to spread the Gospel
---Poppa_Bear on 10/14/11




What did God say in Jeremiah 9:27. I remember over 30 years ago when the Lord brought me to that verse, and revealed to me that this was His will for me to KNOW HIM, His Lovingkindness, justice and righteousness, for in these things HE DELIGHTS, and THIS is what we are to GLORY IN.

Never once on all these 30+ years did God ever consider Himself Poor Poor God because man is given free will.


Actually it will be POOR POOR MAN when it's all said and done.

SO while the Lord may be found, before the end comes, taste and see that the Lord is Good, He is AWESOME, POWERFUL, loving, kind, merciful. Whosoever will, may COME OUT of this evil wicked world, through Christ. The Spirit and the Bride say "COME"!
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Kathr, again you bring in my family as usual. Let me answer this way. God already knows what he will do. After all, His Omniscient and it is God who gives faith to believe in Jesus. He has either chosen him for eternal life or He hasn't. My son will make the decision, and when he does, if he does, it will be because God gave him faith to believe. If he decides to reject Christ, then it is because his heart was never changed, and he will continue rejecting Christ. He is not going to hell because of me, but because everyone who is not of faith is heading there already. They need Christ. The fact is, that he might already have faith and has not yet committed his life to Christ. One thing I know, is that he never trashes Scripture as you do.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


"Then poor God, He wants to do something but sinful men is more powerful then Him." MarkV"

MarkV, well spoken. Many "free-willers" love to use verses in Ezekiel33:11 & 2Peter3:9 to justify that God is dying to save everyone. Indeed God does not desire the death of the wicked, however He did willed that the wicked not found in Christ will die.

Did God desire the death of His Son? No! But did God willed that Christ was to come and "die for the sins of His people?" Yes! "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him, he hath put him to grief..." Isaiah 53:12, "He that spared not his own Son..." Romans 8:32

In this God demonstrated His love for His people.
---christan on 10/13/11


Kathr, you said,
"God is not WILLING you to blaspheme any believers on line here either, that is coming from your own corrupted WILL."
I haven't blaspheme any believers. I disagree with your false teachings and heretical views against the Sonship of Christ.
Second, I don't know your heart, but I know what you say when you answer. And most of it is all religious smoke screen to cover your false theology about Almighty God whom you strip of His Deity.
Here is what you have to say about God,
"Well MarkV God is not WILLING any to perish, so there you go with God's WILL."
Then poor God, He wants to do something but sinful men is more powerful then Him. Sorry, but you are wrong.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/11


32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Correction..John 12:32

LeeJ,John 6 = Jesus concludes by saying, everyone that has been taught of the Father comes to me.

Are you wanting us to believe YOU were first taught By God the Father BEFORE coming to Christ... Exactly how did that happen? Only Jews were taught by the Father in the OT. THEY were taught by the Prophets and the Law.Now I'm sure many Gentles DID HEAR through the Jews testimony, but were you there then too? Re-incarnated huh???

SO Faith still comes BY HEARING regardless of your cherry picking scripture and only posting 1/2 the truth. 1/2 a truth is a LIE if it is for the purpose of misrepresenting.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


One verse that kathy can never work around is -

Joh 6:44 No man (or woman) can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So she ignores this verse because it means salvation is only granted to those whom God will chose. Not everyone who hears the gospel is drawn by God to acknowledge His lordship.
---lee1538 on 10/13/11

Oh but Leej, that is not true. I have explained that to you all over a hundred times here.

Because I understand that verse i have no issues.

But YOU are the ones who have teh issue with John 12:24 which is After Christ's death and resurrection.

Why are you still in BC? BC Doesn't apply to anyone today!
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


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According to OT law, you cannot take your ex-wife back.

When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce ....and if she goes and becomes another mans wife,and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife,then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the LORD. Deut. 24:1f

trav - I would not take her back if I were you.
---lee1538 on 10/13/11


In any case, the failure of a marriage thru divorce is always something one will regret and wish never happened.
---lee1538 on 10/12/11

Hosea 2:7
she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them, she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say,...
..
" I will go and return to my first husband, for then was it better with me than now."

Jeremiah 3:11
the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
---Trav on 10/13/11


Well MarkV God is not WILLING any to perish, so there you go with God's WILL.

So if He is not WILLING any to perish, does that mean He has WILLED all to be saved.

Seems you have the wrong interpretation of God's WILL.

God is not WILLING you to blaspheme any believers on line here either, that is coming from your own corrupted WILL.

God didn,t WILL your son to reject Christ either, however YOUR doctrine just may have destroyed his desire to come to Christ.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


No one can DO Gods WILL until they KNOW Gods Will. Romans 12:1-2 state clearly, present yourselves a living sacrifice, holy acceptable unto God , which is your reasonable SERVICE, SO THAT you may not only KNOW Gods will, but do His will. (ONLY THOSE who DO the Will of the Father).
The Calvinists doctrine claim they need no such beseeching, because regardless of their own disobedience , God is going to do His Will anyway. WRONG! This is the Will of God, even your SANCTIFICATION. Yet, MarkV claims he needs no testing in order to bring about SANCTIFICATION.
Their doctrine is a HORRIBLE to the core. There is no accountability with the Doctrine of Calvin.
They are going to be in for a SHOCK!
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


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"The "us" here is the elect, whom He has mercy on, whom have "by grace been saved" "
Mark_V. on 10/12/11

Matthew 15:32 "Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have
compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three
days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest
they faint in the way."

How many ate?
"And they did all eat, and were filled:"

Mark 6:34 "And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd:and he began to teach them many things."

Nothing about the 'elect' in those verses, nope!
---Nana on 10/13/11


One verse that kathy can never work around is -

Joh 6:44 No man (or woman) can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So she ignores this verse because it means salvation is only granted to those whom God will chose. Not everyone who hears the gospel is drawn by God to acknowledge His lordship.
---lee1538 on 10/13/11


What the Christian really has is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who will reveal to the believer if he or she has trespassed God's will.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11

I agree, it is through the Holy Spirit that we know what is approved and disaproved by God. I call this a Godly conscience.

Mark
You disagree with most everything I say, because if you agree, you must go against your own doctrinal beliefs.
Notice that I can use the Bible as it is written, I don't need to twist the verses around like a bunch of ballons to make it look like something it's not.
I don't need to re-translate a word in Greek, until I find a definition that matches my beliefs, and I don't need to find a Bible translation to match what I say.
---David on 10/13/11


Kathr, you try with all you got to replace God on the Throne and put man on it. This is in order that your theology can stand. But it does not have any truth in it. God is on the Throne Kathr, and no matter how much religious talk you do, or how much Scritpure twisting you do, He will not come down to your level. He is God Almighty. He saves those He wills to save. Nothing stops Him from choosing whom He wills. In fact it is all done and complete in His sight. The unfolding of His plan is what we are seeing come to pass. We will do what God has already seen. We will witness where God has already moved us to witness to, and to whom He wants to save, and no man who speaks for man can change that. We are sinners, and He is Holy and righteous.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/11


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Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1: 12,13

That's what this verse said. we are BORN OF GOD.

We are Born Again of the Spirit of the Life of Christ( who by the way is God) in us.

That's why to as many as RECEIVE HIM...Christ, to them are His sons, begotten sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

But only those truly Born Again KNOW that truth.

All others, void of being Born Again, claim to be Born Again by God's will, not His Son, Jesus Christ.

They DENY Christ altogether, they deny their identification with Christ in death and resurrection that brings one to being Born Again.

They actually believe themselves to be little gods.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


No where that mentions being born of the will of God? Let's see what the Scripture says:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1: 12,13

Even a man/woman that comes into this world in the flesh (and this we are not talking about being born of the Spirit), I wonder if he/she chose to be born into this world? No is my answer (I speak for myself). And some place as Holy as God's Kingdom, one can choose to whether he/she wants to go there? I think not.
---christan on 10/12/11


//But God, who is rich in mercy, "because of His great love with which He loved us" even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"

"Dead in trespasses" does the term simply mean that we were dead in the sense that we could do nothing of ourselves, that Christ had to make us alive?

If so, then salvation is wholly of God, we can only receive the gift that He presents to us.
---lee1538 on 10/12/11


Nana, You look for things to argue, because of your support for works for salvation from RCC doctrine and the reason you support David. But you are wrong and so is he.
Jesus felt compassion for this sinner who wanted to inherit eternal life (V.17). God loves the unsaved enough to save many. If He didn't love them, He would not save anyone. Eph, 2:4
"But God, who is rich in mercy, "because of His great love with which He loved us" even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"
The "us" here is the elect, whom He has mercy on, whom have "by grace been saved"
You want it to say by their works they were saved, but it doesn't.
---Mark_V. on 10/12/11


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Mark 10:21: "Then Jesus beholding him loved him..."
Jesus loved him on account that "he was guilty of loving himself and his possessions more than his neighbors..."?
Can't fathom that reasoning, John F. McArthur stands out like a crazy man who teach nonsense.
---Nana on 10/12/11


trav //Yes it is hard for some, to speak of a former wife and bride to be...

Does Christan have a problem speaking about her former husband she divorced?

In any case, the failure of a marriage thru divorce is always something one will regret and wish never happened.

If I decided to get rid of my wife, I would probably love the freedom so much that I would never want to re-marry.
---lee1538 on 10/12/11


God's people in OT, NT are all born of the Spirit of God by His will.
---christan on 10/11/11
Nowhere does it say we are born again of the Spirit BY HIS WILL.

We are Born Again of the Spirit through obedience of FAITH.

AND we are Born Again of the Spirit by our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life.

It's HIS RESURRECTION LIFE in us that is why we are born again...

Not by God willing this on anyone.

Again FALSE DOCTRINE that fails to identify a believer with Christ in death and resurrection life.

ALL FAlse teachers fail to Identify you with Romans 6-8.

Resurrection life/Born Again is a result of first DYING with Christ....
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


I can't find any scripture that says we are born again by the Will of God, EXCEPT it is rwh Will of God that men be Born Again, those who receive Him, that is Jesus Christ, THE WORD of God,

John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It says we are Born Of God, not by the will of God.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


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//Many hate Paul's preaching because it cuts them to their hearts that God has chosen.
---
Yes it is hard for some, to speak of a former wife and bride to be. Past teaching? Jealousy? Usurping? Condescension? Fear.....of a righeous GOD? Shortage of faith.

2 Peter 3:15-16 .... There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11

Exactly. Amen.
---Trav on 10/12/11


David, I also disagree with you on the meaning you gave Matt. 19:18,19.
Jesus was not teaching the rich man to keep the law because He mentioned the law, in fact Jesus was in fact exposing the young man's true heart. His refusal to obey revealed two things. First that he was not blameless as far as the law was concerned, because he was guilty of loving himself and his possessions more than his neighbors (v.19) and second, he lacked true faith, which is a willingness to surrender everything to Christ bidding (v. 16:24). Jesus was not teaching salvation by works of the law, but showing that no one can keep the law and have eternal life, for that was the original question (v. 16).
---Mark_V. on 10/12/11


Trav, your comment of Paul is nothing short of rubbish, full of perversion. ---christan on 10/11/11

O wretched man that i am...also.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth, but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law, ...

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, .....
---Trav on 10/12/11


//Many hate Paul's preaching because it cuts them to their hearts that God has chosen.
---
Somewhat true howbeit many who are without His Spirit or refuse to heed His Spirit, simply do not believe that the righteous must live by faith, not by works of the law.

2 Peter 3:15-16 just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11


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"Pauls testimony is not as clear. Translators are responsible for this in part." Trav"

Trav, your comment of Paul is nothing short of rubbish, full of perversion. Reason "Paul's testimony is not as clear" to you is because you are lacking the guidance, understanding from the Holy Spirit. Jesus declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

God's people in OT, NT are all born of the Spirit of God by His will. Confirming what Jesus Christ declared above. When that's done, it comes with His gift of faith to believe in His Word. Many hate Paul's preaching because it cuts them to their hearts that God has chosen.
---christan on 10/11/11


David //We have a Godly conscience, a conscience that tells us if what we do is approved or disapproved by God.

But conscience cannot always be trusted as conscience can be seared (1 Tim. 4:2).

What the Christian really has is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who will reveal to the believer if he or she has trespassed God's will.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11


WHAT LAWS did God write onto the hearts of believers?
---lee1538 on 10/10/11

Lee
We have a Godly conscience, a conscience that tells us if what we do is approved or disapproved by God.....
---David on 10/11/11

Write into the hearts of who??

It is so hard for anyone to speak the "name" or show the verse. What is this embarrassment? Shame? snobbery? You claim their verse, but won't use their name!
I'll do it for you. House of Israel.
Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 10/11/11


barb-

John 17:4... world - ghay - by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene [earth], (including the occupants in each application)

Paul's commission: Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: (red letters)

or the other parts of the terrene or earth.
---aka on 10/11/11


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barb, Know your enemy, Paul was an Apostle from Christ and propagated Christ's gosple, with signs following. Jesus sent Paul, saying, "Arise, and go into the city, and it will be told you what you must do." And he told Ananias about Paul, saying, "Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name in front of the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will show him how great things he must suffer fo my name's sake." Act.9:6,15,16. There is no indication that he was antiChrist after his conversion to Christ, and indeed he wrote a large part of the New Testament of the Holy Bible.
---Eloy on 10/11/11


WHAT LAWS did God write onto the hearts of believers? Just moral law or laws that involve ones relationship with others?
---lee1538 on 10/10/11

Lee
We have a Godly conscience, a conscience that tells us if what we do is approved or disapproved by God.
Notice which laws Jesus gave to the Rich man in (Matthew 19:18-19), Jesus took some from the Old and some from the New.
Jesus said, "`Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honor thy father and thy mother, and, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Notice that the one I underlined was not written in stone.
---David on 10/11/11


What then was Paul's mission? John 7:16-19. Jesus gathers, Paul scatters.
---barb on 10/10/11

Pauls testimony is not as clear. Translators are responsible for this in part.

What the translators missed is the truth is verified, by prophet.
Paul...the legalist upholder of the Judean/jewish marriage position with GOD.....found that GOD fulfilled the impossible. He'd widowed the Northern House of Israel. Legally allowing them remarriage. Paul the legalist persecutor. Seen this New Light redeeming the Nth House. His Kinfolk as well.
He has a dilema, with his own Benj/Judean brothers now, that he had previously with the other House. Testimony by irony....at its finest.
---Trav on 10/11/11


Barb, you say "If Jesus' death was going to do away with the ten commandments then why didn't He say so?"

Jesus death did not annul or "do away" with the ten commandments! His death fulfilled the demand of the law which is "For the wages of sin is death..." Whoever told you that He came to do away with the law is a charlatan and a false preacher in the Word of God.

Jesus mission was not in vain, "...for he shall save his people from their sins" Matthew 1:21 and He declared to us "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17
---christan on 10/10/11


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//lee1538, I have no problem in believing in every word that was recorded by the eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ. I will take His word over the word of Paul/Saul anyday

Then you really do not believe that the Bible was written and perserved under the auspices of God's Holy Spirit, that every word of the New Testament as well as the Old is from the mouth of God?

It is interesting to the extreme some people go to in order to justify their adherene to the Jewish Sabbath.

In any case, suggest your consider the summary of the law as being love of neighbor and love of God. Matthew 22.

Jesus never told anyone to observe the OT sabbath, in fact, his chief enemies were the sabbath keepers. Why should we identify with them?
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


Barb, I don't know what your grip is but you are so wrong in saying what you do about Paul. It was Jesus Christ who appeared to him, It was Jesus who chose him,
"But the Lord said to him,(Ananias) 'Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before the Gentiles, Kings, and the chidren of Israel, for I will show him how many things he must suffer for My 'name's sake" Acts 15.16.
---Mark_V. on 10/10/11


lee1538, I have no problem in believing in every word that was recorded by the eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ. I will take His word over the word of Paul/Saul anyday. If Jesus' death was going to do away with the ten commandments then why didn't He say so? Read Matt. 19:17-24, Rev. 14:12.

And so along comes Paul/Saul claiming to be recruited by the son of god and the world falls for his lie. John 5:43.

Didn't Jesus say that He had completed His work here on Earth? John 17:4. What then was Paul's mission? John 7:16-19. Jesus gathers, Paul scatters. Matt. 12:30.
---barb on 10/10/11


What we have that the Old Testament believers did not have is the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us in our walk.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11

Yeah. But, then we have our own Paul who always in a fight with his inner Saul/Paul.

There are some interesting things in the Old. David a man after GOD's own heart received this indwelling.
David....the last of ten, as lowly undeducated Shepherd grabbed something available to us.
Last was first!
1 Samuel 16:13
Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
David enquired.
Saul didn't. 1 Chronicles 10:13-14
---Trav on 10/10/11


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David //That's it Trav, "Short and Sweet".
The Jews kept the Old out of their fear of God, the Law was not written on their hearts, they did not keep the Law out of their Love for God.

WHAT LAWS did God write onto the hearts of believers? Just moral law or laws that involve ones relationship with others?

The Bible makes NO distinction between types of laws.

What we have that the Old Testament believers did not have is the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us in our walk.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


barb //If you want to risk your eternal life on what Paul wrote in Gal. 4 it is up to you but I will believe what Jesus said in Matt 5:18-20.

Cannot one not believe that what Paul wrote was also from God's Spirit, that all scripture in both testaments was the word of God?

The problem with believing what Jesus stated is that He spoke to those who were still under the Old Covenant dispensation. The New Covenant was ushered in after the Cross.

The view of Matthew 5:17 would mean that the church is yet under the Old Covenant, not the New, that males still need to become circumcised and that converts need to convert to Judaism in order to be legit.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


If you want to risk your eternal life on what Paul wrote in Gal. 4 it is up to you but I will believe what Jesus said in Matt 5:18-20. Jesus came to testify to the truth and those who are of the truth hear His voice, John 18:37.

Jesus said that whoever breaks one commandment and teaches others to do so shall be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul cannot help you on Judgement Day so if you don't want to get locked outside of the city you will have to choose who to beleive now while there is still time. Rev. 22:14-15.
---barb on 10/9/11


Francis //Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Adventism believes Christ accomplished nothing of the law, that He did not fulfill the law. They argue that since both heaven & earth have not passed away (5:18), selected Old Testment law is still binding on Christians - both external law (Sabbath observance) as well as moral law that affects conscience and the heart.

Gal. 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

The effectively say Galatians is not true as Christ did NOT redeem anyone from the law.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


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//Committing adultery, murder is just a sin as is not keeping the sabbath. because he who said/wrote thou shall not kill also wrote remember the sabbath day.

And He also stated that keeping the Sabbath was but a SIGN of the covenant God made with Israel ONLY.

Exodus 31:17 It is a SIGN forever between me and the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.

He did not not not say the Sabbath was a sign between Himself and His Church nor did He command it of His church anywhere in the New Covenant, nor was it taught in the early Gentile church.

The Adventist view on the Sabbath will continue to be a minority view since it has the least defense.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


Lee, it is very obvious that Francis rejects Christ along with rejecting what Christ did on the cross.

Francis is also like the pharisee's, they insist others keep the law even though they themselves do not. This is one of the very things Christ himself rebuked the pharisses for doing.
---Rob on 10/8/11


Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But AFTER THAT FAITH(In what jesus did on the cross)IS COME, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience, Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them UNTIL THE TIME OF REFORMATION

These two texts are about the exact same thing. the earthly sanctuary which taught about Jesus, and was to remain until Jesus death. It is not about the ten commandments, but the law of Moses.
---Francis on 10/8/11


Lee of many names: "The main difference is in the nature of the law NOT the location of the law since some laws were designated to Israel alone."

You really do not know much about the Bible do you?

The only mention of the New Covenant (NC) in the New Testament (NT) is in Hebrews, where Paul quotes from the OT (Jeremiah) that the NC LAW is written on the heart rather than in stone - a change of location with no mention of a change in the law.

Further, Paul asserts that the NC is with the house of Israel and Judah - i.e., Jews. If you want to be a part of the NC, you must be "graffed in" (Rom 11).
---jerry6593 on 10/8/11


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Differences...Old Covenant written Laws on stone.
New Covenant...Written Laws in Heart/mind.
---Trav on 10/7/11

That's it Trav, "Short and Sweet".
The Jews kept the Old out of their fear of God, the Law was not written on their hearts, they did not keep the Law out of their Love for God.
God does not want us to keep his Law because it's the Law, but wants us keep his laws because we love, Love God, and Love our neighbor.

That's the message Jesus gave to the Rich Man in (Matthew 19).
He kept the Law, but if he truly did love his neighbor, he would have given his money to take care of the needs of the Poor.
And that is why the man walked away, he loved his money more than he loved his neighbor.
---David on 10/8/11


TRue no man is justified by anything but Grace. But Grace and faith do not do away with the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Old Coveanant ended with the establishement of the New Covenant by JESUS on the day of Pentacost. The law brings us to JESUS and tells us right and wrong. But it cannot save.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

The Moral laws of the Old Testament define sin. We are saved by grace alone.
---Samuel on 10/8/11


//Why would God change the laws of the covenant?
There was nothing wrong with the laws or the covenant. the fault was WITH THE PEOPLE.

While you complain that the fault in the Old Covenant was with the people, God saw fit to make a New Covenant with His people in which Jesus became the mediator of a New Covenant (Hebr. 9:15), making the Old Covenant obsolete (8:13) - a new one "not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor. 3:6b).

Sorry but you Adventists want to proclaim the New Covenant simply as a rehash of the Old with the only change being in the location of the law.
---lee1538 on 10/9/11


Francis //Why would God change the laws of the covenant?

You really do not know much about the Bible do you?

Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Once a person is justified by faith, the law has accomplished its purpose. We then need to move on and live by faith in His Spirit.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


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Why would God change the laws of the covenant?
There was nothing wrong with the laws or the covenant. the fault was WITH THE PEOPLE

Hebrews 8:8 For finding FAULT WITH THEM, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The laws are just as God said:
Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] PERFECT, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the PERFECT LAW of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
---Francis on 10/7/11


Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

SAME LAWS
the word of God gaurantees us that the laws will NEVER change
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
---francis on 10/7/11


The main difference is in the nature of the law NOT the location of the law since some laws were designated to Israel alone.

The laws of believers in the New Covenant are not mere external observances, but those that affect the conscience and the heart.

The Old Covenant laws of the Hebrews pertained mainly to external rites and ceremonies (such as keeping the Jewish Sabbath, dietary laws, etc.), the laws of the new dispensation would relate particularly to the inner man, and be designed to control the heart. (See Barnes Notes)
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


The OLD covenant ended when Jesus died on the cross, thus the new covenant was ratified by the blood of Jesus. The new Covenant started when jesus died on the cross. Before the new covenant was instituted, Jesus added all that needed to be added to this covenant: namely the lord's supper, and foot washing.

The differences is given in hebrews
1: Sanctuary in heaven rather than earth
2: Jesus as high priest, rather than man as high priest
3: Blood of Jesus rather than blood of animals
4: The Law of God in our hearts placed there by THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE which enables us to obey the laws of God.
---Francis on 10/7/11


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What are the differences between the OLD COVENANT and the NEW COVENANT? When did the OLD COVENANT end and the COVENANT begin?-----Blog

1. Differences...Old Covenant written Laws on stone.
New Covenant...Written Laws in Heart/mind.
2. When? At Death:
Heb 9:15 for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions "that were under" the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
---Trav on 10/7/11


When we refer to the Old Covenant we really mean the covenant God made with Israel ONLY at Mt. Sinai. It was a covenant of law, not of grace.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

When did the Old Covenant end?

Hebrews 13:8 tells us that it simply faded away after the death of Christ on the Cross.

"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Those that say the Old Covenant laws were written on believers heart are confused as they really pick & chose what laws are applicable and which are not.
---lee1538 on 10/7/11


Like christan may mean . . . the New Covenant started before the creation, while our Father and Jesus had such beautifully wonderful sharing together. God was so pleased with Jesus, that He had to have more like Jesus. So, we were "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29) So, then was when in God's heart the New Covenant began.

And the Old Testament "was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (in Galatians 3:24) So, the Old Covenant can still help bring people to Jesus, by helping to show what is not like Christ.

"as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/7/11


1) Matthew 5:38-48+ John 13:34,35+ 15:12,17.
2) At Jesus Christ's birth, the Light of the world, in Bethlehem of Judea in the the 2nd hour of night, between 7 and 8 o'clock Mediterranean time, on December 25th, 5 B.C. Blessed be The Daystar, O Immanuel, given to us and shines in our hearts, for God with us: For to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
---Eloy on 10/7/11


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I would start with a look at the two main covenants in the bible, the covenant that God made with Abraham that concerns both the coming of messiah and salvation and the covenant that Christ set forth at the last supper which is given us in the Gospels and consummated by His blood being shed on the Cross. This last and newest covenant is a fulfillment of both the Abraham and Mosaic covenants of the OT and the most important, because it is the covenant of grace and salvation.
---Poppa_Bear on 10/7/11


The difference?
Under the Old covenant, No man could be found righteous by keeping the Law of Moses.
Why?
Because no man can keep the Law of Moses.

Under the New Covenant, man can be found righteous by keepin the Law of Christ.
Why?
Because everyone can keep the Law of Christ.
What is that Law?
Love God and Love your neighbor.
Abraham was credited with righteousness by doing what God told him to do.
We are credited with righteousness in much the same way, by doing what Jesus tells us to do.
(Matthew 6:1-4) & (Romans 2:6-7 & 13)
---David on 10/7/11


OLD COVENANT
Exodus 19:5 if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Exodus 24:8 Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
---Francis on 10/7/11


NEW COVENANT PROMISE
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The difference:
Blood of Jesus
Laws writen in Heart
---Francis on 10/7/11


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God revealed Himself through His covenants to man. There was the Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic covenants and they were all pointing to the final and New Covenant, which was Jesus Christ.

When God made these covenants, it was only between the triune God of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And this was made before the foundations of the world. The sinful man is the beneficiary of His blessed grace and mercy that's found in His love through His Son Jesus Christ.
---christan on 10/6/11


Rob Picked a wide subject, that you can easily write volumes about 125 words is not going to do it justice on the Old testament covenants alone. First of all many Old Testament Covenants are still in full force. Christ just gave you a supplement that is easier to follow it is just an alternative not a replacement.
---Blogger9211 on 10/6/11


A covenant is a formal contract. I try to avoid them. And I certainly don't make any deals with God. :)
---God.is.everywhere on 10/6/11


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