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Baptismal Regeneration

Did any of the Reformers believe in baptismal regeneration?

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 ---lee1538 on 10/7/11
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CraigA, you say "Why would God warn us not to do a thing that YOU say is impossible for us to do?"

The answer to your question is simple. To demonstrate that we are unable to obey His commands because of our sin nature. Eg, when God commanded man, "Be ye holy, for I am holy." Please then explain to us how do you make yourself Holy when you are dead in the state of sin?

As for hardening, Scripture teaches us that it was God who hardened Pharaoh's heart. Like it or not, when Adam fell, all mankind that came after him are automatically in the sinful nature, born with a harden heart of stone until God removes it and replaces it with a heart of flesh that's known as regeneration.
---christan on 10/16/11


--Perhaps what is troubling her the most is the doctrine of Election - that God can do whatever He desires with His creation --

He can also give his creation free will to choose to serve and obey him or live in disobedience.

What bothers most people about free will is they have to actually REPENT of their sins to be saved. Yes YOU have to make a decision to FOLLOW Jesus Christ! Did he not say that many times in the gospels? Then and ONLY then will you receive the Spirit of Christ.

God is not mocked. The Bible is very clear that a man WILL REAP WHAT HE SOWS!

Does salvation require perfection? No. But it requires a heart dedicated to the things of God. He is no fool, nor is He tricked.
---CraigA on 10/16/11


And the doctrine of "election" doesnt have any effect on those who already know Jesus Christ. By your own definitions of "salvation before faith", ALL of us are "elect". So how then can you judge others here as lost because they arent Calvinist?
Did God choose us because we believed in election?

Or is it possible that you people are overlooking what is plainly written in scripture. Its not Gods will that any should perish, but men DO reject the calling of the Spirit and harden their heart to the truth. He warns us in love NOT to do so.
---CraigA on 10/17/11


Hebraism- {See]the past in front,the future is behind [can't see].

YHVH is Timeless-the worlds cycle within Him.
He is the beginning and end of all things.{Some] must chose within this cycle Deut28:13

Mal 1:2-3... yet I [loved] Jacob, And I [hated] Esau,

Past--Loved/Hated

Job38:7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Timeless world)

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the [worlds] were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

*Create-making something out of nothing.
*Bara is filling something from something.Gen2:7

Bereshiyt Elohiym Bara...(et-Aleph Tav)
---char on 10/17/11


LeeJ, you still haven't answered my question.

WHEN did God the Father TEACH you first before coming to Christ?

Jesus said, ALL whom the Father has taught have come to me. John 6...

So no one can come to Christ UNLIL and UNLESS they were first taught of thr Father according to John 6.

Yet you all leave the rest of Jesus words out.WHY??

Why do you do that.

God delivered Israel out of Egypt because of His promise to Abraham. He also told him it would be 400 years before the promise land was ready anyway.

Moses was sent not only to bring them out, but also bring them in.

Can't you see your sin misrepresenting God?
---kathr4453 on 10/17/11




Gen2:7 And the LORD God [formed/filled-bara] man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils...
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
Rev 4:11

Parallelism

-Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse:
Heb 11:3,Rev 12:4
Ez18:4 Some must chose who they will serve-

However...

The Elect are already justified
Rom8:30,Rom11(all)-Flesh body
Next cycle-Timeless life
YHVH Eternal

Process of elimination
---char on 10/17/11


That God chose Jacob over Esau has nothing to do with Salvation. You are saying out of every set of twins, God can only chose one over the other for salvation. Salvation is not this one OVER that one.

The descendents of Abraham were Isaac, chosen over Ishmael, and Jacob chosen over Esau, for God's purpose of bringing in the Messiah.

Esau married a canaanite for one thing. And God said to Rebecca before they were born, the elder will serve the younger. And that is exactly what happened.

I really DO wish YOU WERE taught by the Father LEEJ and MarkV, for if you were you wouldn't be taking salvation and the scriptures out of context!
---kathr4453 on 10/17/11


John 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God. Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


THEREFORE anyone who only posts verse 44 without the concluding THEREFORE is misrepresenting Jesus words.

And those who have come to Christ ARE COMPLETE IN CHRIST.

Let no man Calvindeceive you through Philosophy and VAIN DECEIPT by 1/2 a truth.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/11


In the day YHVH [created] His children it was not to perish.
However-
In the day He breath them into flesh that He formed- there are Some who need to chose...life/death.
Rom 9:11 For [the children] being not yet born,neither having done any good or evil,that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

[Tangible substance)
Asah-worked, produced by labour
Ex 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD [made-asah] heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the Heavens and the earth In [the day] that they were [bara] filled.

Christ is sabboth
---char on 10/17/11


Lee, it's apparant many call Christians do hold on to their rights over God concerning election. It bothers them so much, they will call you names, make up things about you, including your family to defend their rights over God. It's called theological bias. Something they learned, and now defended, and will not give it up, no matter what the Word of God says. Pilate couldn't see the Truth in from of him, "What is Truth?" he ask Jesus. Their emnity against God still remains. If this Truth was intended for everyone, God would reveal it to all. But, like with the lost He permits them to continue in darkness. All we are told to do is share the Truth to others, present the word of God and allow God to do the rest.
---Mark_V. on 10/17/11




Apparently Kathr4453 simply is unable to understand that while we may have some areas of agreement, there is no consensus from Christians on every position Calvin held.

Perhaps what is troubling her the most is the doctrine of Election - that God can do whatever He desires with His creation including raising up a Pharaoh and choosing Jacob over Esau. (Romans 9 is clearly not her favor section of Scripture).

In any case, she chooses to slam others because of the fact she has found others to be far more knowledgeable and educated than she is (inferiority complex?)

Sorry Kathy but I have only been a dedicated student of the Bible for the past 50 years and while I do not know everything, I have gone much further than most.
---lee1538 on 10/16/11


kathr4453//NOW you want to play cry baby because the tables are turned???
---

God's grace would be upon you if someone who bears the truth would reveal to you what you really are. But I doubt if you could bear the shame if you came to realize the truth.
---lee1538 on 10/16/11


Kathr, you do not even see your sin, that's how bad it's gotten. You say about yourself,
" We are that open book for all to read, those LIVING WATERS of witness every time we post or open our mouth witnessing to His Power within"
The power within you is not of God, For God does not lie, for again you quote that I said,
"MarkV said once, I don't have to be tested (James) because I am the elect, and God doesn't have to test His elect"
As you continue to make up false statements, it only proves what kind of power is within you, and it is not of God. For your own soul, change your ways. Make at least an attempt.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


Leej, it is you who sit in judgement of others, telling them how intelligent you are above them, pushing your Institites and WCF off on others, and judging them for not knowing all you know, even putting others down for mis-spelling words, or using words you never heard of.

I think we have all had just about enough of YOUR JUDGEMENT on others here, who obviouslu like Ellen as much as you like Calvin.

NOW you want to play cry baby because the tables are turned???
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Kath, please forgive me if I appeared to be trying to shame you somehow. That was not my intentions in anyway. I respect your views and havent questioned your Christianity or salvation one time here, or in my mind. In the real world, I fellowship with many who call themselves Christians, and I know almost nothing about their theological views beyond the fact that they call Jesus Lord-Savior and try to walk in His love and produce fruit according to His teachings. I hope your life away from the board is like that, and I imagine that it may be , blessings.
---Poppa_Bear on 10/14/11


kath4453 //We, somehow as man, just love to exalt men above measure. Yes, we do and need to all use our Gifts, but also have discernment if what we are hearing is truth.

And apparently one gift you do not recognize is that gift of teaching that God has given to some but not all. We need to heed our teachers that are called to that ministry of teaching.

//The TULIP is a LIE. No one is born again FIRST before salvation. Nor did Paul teach such things.

Is TULIP a lie because it is based totally upon scripture alone? Perhaps if you were to take the time and study the scripture that pertain to TULIP you may change your mind.

The immature in Christ refuse to recognize that others have interpretations that are defensiible.
---lee1538 on 10/14/11


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First off..."you say no, it came from you, because you decided to choose Him with your own free will because He cannot impose His will on your will." I never said that.

God CAN impose His will against ours and will do so on judgement day.

And no, no man seeks God. He comes to us by his Spirit leading us to Jesus Christ. However as is evident from scripture (and the thing you simply will not face) that a man CAN reject that calling and deny the Lord who shed his blood for them.

The Holy Spirit even warns us NOT to harden ourselves against Him as Israel did(Hebrews 3). Why would God warn us not to do a thing that YOU say is impossible for us to do?

Either God is a liar or your doctrine is faulty.
---CraigA on 10/14/11


Paul to the saints in Ephesus, faithful in Christ Jesus (v.1) concerning their salvation.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world," that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" He was talking to (saints) he then says (v. 2:4-8)
"But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (saints) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ" He first made us alive together with Christ. Far more than anything else, a spiritually dead person needs to be made alive by God.
---Mark_V. on 10/15/11


Leej, you first judged me by calling me unteachable because I won't worship your calvin WCF doctrine.

A Very good lesson in judge not less ye be judged.

Stop making condscending comments to those who live by every word of God calling them unteachable etc.

Your childish comments only show how you are a bully to those who disagree with you.

NO CHRISTIAN puts another Christian down who is totally LOYAL ANDF FAITHFUL to the
Lord, who believe God and live that FAITH in His Promises.

You all claim to have a faith no one else has, yet still have no faith in God's Promises.

James 1! Are you a double minded man or not?
---kathr4453 on 10/15/11


Pappa Bear, so very true, since God ordained Paul, Peter, James and their words are Holy Spirit breathed, all totally compatable with one another. I so love what James said, God gives to those who ask, and is without partiality. That should mean the world to us, that no one person in the Body of Christ, apart from those who wrote the Scriptures has any more or is above anyone else in Knowing Truth.

We, somehow as man, just love to exalt men above measure. Yes, we do and need to all use our Gifts, but also have discernment if what we are hearing is truth.

The TULIP is a LIE. No one is born again FIRST before salvation. Nor did Paul teach such things.

---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


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kathr//It appears you don't have that kind of relationship with the Lord Leej.

I am sadden that you view yourself as a judge capable of judging the spirituality of others.

Like your condemnation of commentaries, you condemn those who would look to the teachers the Lord has sent that we may grow in Christ. In that sense you are unteachable as apparently you think you are always right.
---lee1538 on 10/14/11


Poppa Bear, I see you coming back here is somehow trying to make me feel ashamed or guilty for my convictions in this matter. I'm just telling you our of my prsonal experience GOD will bring you into all truth. All you need to do is have faith to ask.

Those who bully one into having to read the Institutes of Calvin and say you can't understand salvation without reading it, are who I have an issue with.

ALL Cults will always tell you you nd to read their stuff! JW's Mormons, etc. Calvinists are no different!.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Kath, in my short time here I am often sadden because of degrading remarks, and supercilious attitudes towards people who have a different scriptural understanding. The only book I read everyday is the Bible, that is my daily bread, yes I love extrabiblicle materials, but nothing can replace the words of the master. I am not trying to cast stones, for I am not guilt-free. Im sure at one time Pauls theology and Peters looked completely different, but it was love and respect for each other as fellow-believers that brought the harmony of their truths together, flowing from the same God same Spirit without contradiction. Knowing theology is easy compared to loving like the Savior does. His theology was flawless, but His love saved us.
---Poppa_Bear on 10/14/11


Poppa_Bear

Like you said: "Sad irony."
---Bruce5656 on 10/14/11


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Kat, there is a sad irony in your comments, because as you say this stuff about commentaries, you dont seem to understand that you indeed are making commentary every time you write a post about scripture. Poppa_Bear on 10/14/


Pappa bear, that is EXACTLY what I said to you this morning, WE ARE God's commentary of what He has written IN OUR HEART personally. We are that open book for all to read, those LIVING WATERS of witness every time we post or open our mouth witnessing to His Power within.

All some here can do is copy and paste from Commentaries.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Pappa bear, one thing I have noticed about those who look to Calvin is that they deny in actual life our identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life.

MarkV said once, I don't have to be tested (James) because I am the elect, and God doesn't have to test His elect.

Head knowledge will get you nowhere.

And just look at their ungly hateful remarks, and totally bogus accusations.

The WISDOM of man is foolishness with God. If we need Wisdom we are instructed to ASK GOD, because Christ is made unto US Wisdom and understanding.

That all comes with our Identification with Him in Death and resurrection life.

Those remarks only show THEY REALLY don't have a PERSONAL relationship with the Lord.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Kat, there is a sad irony in your comments, because as you say this stuff about commentaries, you dont seem to understand that you indeed are making commentary every time you write a post about scripture. This is said in love beloved, maybe slow down and consider your way of thinking, the same thing you are relegating to the pile, you are doing yourself everytime you press a key and send a reply.
In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/14/11


Kathr, if Scripture is not teaching you anything how can any commentary help you? You have been brainwashed with so many lies, you've changed the truth to a lie even when you try to quote me. The Bible says,
"God has given them a spirit of stupor. Eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day" Every subject of Scripture you have changed. The Holy Spirit indwelling, the Deity of the Son of God, grace, sanctification, salvation, rebirth, the elect, Israel, and so on. You've touched everyone of them with your false theology. Some here disagree with one area or another, but not you, you refuse all truth. No book can help you, only God.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


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The problem apparently is that you are unteachable!
---lee1538 on 10/13/11

No actually LeeJ, I am very teachable. Anything I have ever asked the Lord about His word, HE has taught me. He has always answered my questions. James 1 can verify that truth too. But when I ask, and receive, I'm not double minded and then question God's answer and look for another answer from man.

It appears you don't have that kind of relationship with the Lord Leej.

I'm sorry!
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Pappa Bear,I know you must be big on books etc. I know so many who are all about books and commentaries. Sadly do I witness so many have exalted these over the bible.

Actually I found the Pam Pawder diet the best,
If it didn't grow that way, Don't eat it

I can't tell you how many times God had to stick His finger down my throat and make me throw up false teaching through books and commentaries.OUCH!


Commentaries are cliff notes. God wants YOU to be HIS OPEN Commentary of what HE has written on your heart, for others around you to read....

You see, out of our own bellies flow rivers of "living water".

The reformers has only a SMALL amount of Light....How much more Light we have today!
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Poppa Bear,

Also keep in mind, all books and commentaries are written by meer men, some lost, some saved, but men who have yet to be judged along with any workks at the judgement seat of Christ. MANY of those books and commentariess will be BURNED as rubbish.

AND God is not going to reward you for riding on someone elses coattails. Without your own works built upon the foundation Paul built, you will be totally empty handed.

Discover truth for yourself. Know beyond a shaddow of a doubt, because God has TESTED YOU PERSONALLY, what is true and what is not. I Promise you, He is a rewarder of those who faithfully SEEK HIM, personally, not through second hand knowledge!

God wants YOU TO KNOW HIM!
John 17..
---kathr4453 on 10/14/11


Kath, unfortunately you give Calvin too much credit, there are scores of men who contributed to the belief that we now call Reformed Theology. Many of those men disagreed with Calvin as much as you might in similar areas, and yet hold to reformed theology. Calvins mane contributions are his commentaries and his-Institutes. Reformed Theology doesnt equal Calvinist, or TULIP, IE the 5 points of Calvin. They may run together on many points, but putting Calvins name as the father or founder of Reformed-Theology is wrong. Also, the gift of teaching-preaching is an amazing gift that adds to the fullness of the body, and that is what we are, a BODY of believers all endowed with gifts given to serve one another in various ways.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/13/11


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Craig, It's true, you cannot come to Christ on your own terms. It is not possible. You cannot bring anything before the Lord that is good in His eyes. For if you did, you steal the glory that belongs to God for all good things come from above, " but you say no, it came from you, because you decided to choose Him with your own free will because He cannot impose His will on your will." If that were true, then there is something good in you that did not come from God, and Paul lied when he said,
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside, They have together become unprofitable, There is none who does good, no, not one" (Rom. 11,12).
---MarkV. on 10/13/11


kathr//The first century church did not need commentaries, and we really don't need them today, unless you believe the Holy Spirit is outdated, or we are just too modern or educated or sophisticated to really have faith that what Jesus said yesterday still applies to today...That the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

You will find plenty of letters that were commentaries in the earliest church.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers,...

You fail to understand the reason the Lord gave teachers to His church as it is the Holy Spirit that works through them to teach others God's truth.

The problem apparently is that you are unteachable!
---lee1538 on 10/13/11


--But you accepted Him on your own terms.--Mark_V

And what were my terms MarkV? Jesus said repent and believe in me and thats what I do. I trust in him for the forgiveness of my sins and the power to overcome my flesh thru his Spirit! I call upon the Father for my every need in the name of his Son Jesus Christ.

What fault do you find in that?

I also love ALL of the world just as Christ loved me. And just as Christ turned noone away , I turn noone away from him by telling them that Christ didnt die for them. Maybe its time you examine your heart. You have left your first love.
---CraigA on 10/13/11


Poppa Bear, There is a Doctrine called "Reformed Theology". It's Calvinism. So my understanding and yours is different. Many reformers do not adhear to "Reformed Theology," even though they came through the reformation.

The first century church did not need commentaries, and we really don't need them today, unless you believe the Holy Spirit is outdated, or we are just too modern or educated or sophisticated to really have faith that what Jesus said yesterday still applies to today...That the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Christianity does not need to be reformed and neither do the scriptures.

---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


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Craig, " Imagine how the lost see these forums" I agree, and I'm deeply concerned with the lack of love, light, truth here. Many know the bible, may know Christ, but even the enemy used scripture when tempting Christ. We all, myself included, ought to be in prayer about all posted here. We ought to seek Him only, that all will be of Him. We need to put on Christ and make NO provision for the flesh. May God have mercy on us, for the sake of the lost, the hurting, the needy.
A while back, a mod said there are a LOT of people who merely view these forums. Spending time here, I hope many will be drawn to Him, isn't it all about Him?
---chria9396 on 10/13/11


Definition of Reform:
improvement, reorganization, restructuring, modification, alteration, change, amendment, remodel, modernize, rearrange, upgrade, amend.
to change and improve something by correcting faults, removing inconsistencies and abuses, and imposing modern methods or values
to adopt a more acceptable way of life and mode of behavior, or persuade or force somebody else to do so
Now how many really believe the Bible or Born Again Christians needs all of the above?
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


But you accepted Him on your own terms. So did Kathr, for she already told us she had no faith when she confessed Christ,can change your heart.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/

MarkV, this kind of LYING has to stop.

My faith is in Christ who changed my heart, my life, my desires. I had no Idea just how much CHANGE came with receiving Jesus Chriat as my Lord and Savior. I received MERCY, LOVE, Grace, and so much more. And I didn't even have to BEG for it.

You are the one who had no faith in Christ to change your heart. I believe you are jealous. Calvin just can't impart to you what the Riches in Christ has imparted to me.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


Kath, out of the reformation we have gained , Bibles/freedom to worship, commentaries/end of SLAVERY/womens-rights,/civil-rights movement, to name a few. It was not perfect, but really? You are going to demonize a movement that brought the world out of darkness/dark-ages, God using men giving their own lives to put bibles in common-folks hands like you-me? Trace our religious freedoms, the resources you use to grow in the bible, you will find many are even possible because the reformation. God using mens prayers/courage/faith/talents/lives to break an institutional strong-hold that choked the light of the Gospel for hundreds of years. People couldn't even read the words of the Master and share the joy that you have everytime you open a bible.
---Poppa_Bear on 10/13/11


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So people understand, I'm not saying reformed theology is some replacement for Gods word, It's a term with a mix of theology, doctrines, and historical events. I'm hoping that some can simply acknowledge that the reformation was extremely revolutionary in its significance for believers before they crucify it. I'm not trying to push people to study the reformers, I did and it greatly helped me, but, nothing, nothing replaces the Spirit of truth as it guides believers through Gods promises. There's probably a person in a little hut in China with only one soiled page of the Gospel of John, and their life, with just a hand full of verses portraying the Savior, may be more faithful and fruitful than mine will ever be with all of my fancy theology
---Poppa_Bear on 10/13/11


CraigA, please read my blog with care. I quoted what Jesus told His disciples not to do when sharing the words to unbelievers. Loving the enemy/neighbor commanded of by Christ does not equate to a Christian compromising on His Word (who's Christ). His Word is as precious as a pearl.

Loving the enemy/neighbor is testifying and witnessing the Truth of God. Eg, if someone tells me that God loves everyone and wants to save everyone and I know that it's not the truth, why should I compromise what I believe in, especially when God declared it to be so in His Word? And if I love my enemy/neighbor, shouldn't I tell him the truth? Isn't that an act of love in Christ? Remember, "And the Truth will set you free."
---christan on 10/13/11


Craig, no man has power over God. You said,
"Unfortunately none of the "dogs/swine" you have in mind have rejected Jesus Christ."
But you accepted Him on your own terms. So did Kathr, for she already told us she had no faith when she confessed Christ, but expected to get everything if she did, like the story of Simon the Sorcerer who wanted buy the power of the Spirit and Peter told him,
"Your money perish with you, because "you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money. You have neither part nor portion in this matter," for your heart is not right in the sight of God" Acts 8:20. Your heart has to be right before God, and only God can change your heart.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/11


Is Christan advising Poobear not to throw Reformed Doctrine Theology to us dogs and swine?

Reformed Theology, mans remake of God's Covenants) is dog meat and pig slop.

Have you ever noticed how often Reformed Theology has had to REFORM their own Theology over the last several hundred years, all the way down to Karl Barth?

If you all just stuck with scripture, you would never have had to re-form your Deformed Theology at all.

Reformed Theology is reformed RCC, that never really Reformed all of it.

But many here, like myself were never RCC to begin with.


So I agree Christan, you all should keep your dog and pig slip to yourselves.

I'm eating real PRIME. Great for GROWTH AND DISCERNMENT!
---kathr4453 on 10/13/11


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Such words of Christian love, Christan.

Unfortunately none of the "dogs/swine" you have in mind have rejected Jesus Christ. So instead of becoming stumbling block to your brothers and sisters in CHrist and hating on them with such vile words, why dont you try a little of that temperance and love that the Spirit gives us.

Its seems that the importance of loving people in Christ has taken a back seat to the importance of everyone here agree with the doctrine you and Mark_V hold. Does that honor God at all, when you preach grace as you spit in face of your audience?

The place is beginning to disgust me. I dont see any of the love of Jesus Christ here anymore. Imagine how the lost see these forums.
---CraigA on 10/12/11


Poppa Bear, one piece of advise or counsel according to Jesus Christ to His desciples, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6

Some people here fall into this category as told of by Christ and by the grace of God, He will give us the heart to be discerning to such "dogs & swine(s)". How true when these "dogs & swine(s)", "trample" on what you believe and try to share.

Do not be discourage but encourage that what you believe is of God. Continue to plough on as instructed by Christ and try not to engage with these "dogs & swine(s)".
---christan on 10/12/11


Kath, a comment concerning your theology, the Sovranty of God encompasses all the covenants just as the message of a redeemer runs through all the covenants. and though it is foundational to understand the covenants, learning about the attributes of God is just as foundational. It's all part of a systematic theological thread holding/running through the whole Bible profoundly impacting our view of Salvation and Gods Holiness. As far As me reading and studying, at the Reformed Theological Seminary, biblical studies/covenants/history/apologetic/philosophy/doctrines/surveys/hermeneutics/expositional-teaching/contextual-backgrounds/geography/timelines/genealogies/Christology/creeds/catechisms/soteriology/were required studies.
In His grip, adieu
---Poppa_Bear on 10/12/11


20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" Again, Pauls using a universal title for humanity, not specific to Israel. Poppa_Bear on 10/12/11


Again Pappa Bear, God spoke to Israel about the potters clay, not Gentiles

Isaiah 29:16
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Paul in Romans is quoting from Isaiah, OT To Israel, not gentiles.

Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Please study.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


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Pappa Bear, the best gift you could give yourself is not only to READ ALL of Hebrews 11 all the way to the end, but to study all the Biblical Covenants in scripture, who they're to, what are and are not the conditions, if they are ALL to you, or if some are to Israel alone.

Did God promise YOU any LAND??? NO!

Does the Mosaec Covanant apply to you? NO

Does the Abrahamic Covenant apply to you? WHAT PART of the Abrahamic Covenant? LAND??? Or Salvation and blessings to all families of the Earth.

Are You a Remnant, a left over from an original piece? NO.

Don't worry Pappa Bear, the Gentiles are covered in the Abrahamic Covenant. Galatians, by receiving the Promise of the SPIRIT, not land.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


Pappa Bear, now read Galatians. Where is JACOB even mentioned? Or those promises to Jacob? There not. However, in ISAAC will thy seed be called. And that seed is Christ, not the physical descendents of Jacob.

GRACE was promised through teh Abrahamic Covenant as stated in Galatians, to those who have the LIKE FAITH as ABRAHAM. AND Paul never mentions in GAlatians what he spoke in Romans 9-11.

WHY, because in Galatians Paul is talking to GENTILES about their salvation.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


Ruben//Because of Bible Alone beliefs, which it does not teach!

We are clearly told in scripture that we are to live by every word that has come from the mouth of God. Mt. 4:4

Where else do may we find the Word of God except in scripture? If elsewhere, what test is used to make a determination that something is the Word of God?

One of your popes once stated that ignornance of the Bible is ignorance of Christ. I believe he was at least correct on that issue.

As the authority, the Lord alway state "It is written...". If He believed the Scripture was God's word and authoritative should we not also do so?

Without the Bible, all that you really have is the word of man.
---lee1538 on 10/12/11


Sorry Kath, look at the wording, 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. It doesnt say on Israels effort, but mans. 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" Again, Pauls using a universal title for humanity, not specific to Israel. Yes, this chapter addresses Israel, but also highlights Gods Sovran choice to call people aside from their works/desires for His own Sovran purposes, like He did Faro. We are all vessels, some for glory, some, wrath, He's the potter for all, not just Israel, or is Israel the only vessel He chose according to election? If I dont comment again it is because I doubt any of my words would change your position unless you think otherwise, Grin.
In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/12/11


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lee1538 * One can believe in the entirety of the Bible but have the wrong interpretations on some doctrinal matters.

Because of Bible Alone beliefs, which it does not teach!

lee1538 * It is easy to see from the writing of the early church fathers that they all have different viewpoints on various subjects.

Like the books of the Bible, but you believe they got it right!

lee1538 * While nice to have one standard and ones set of beliefs, it has been the will of God that this not be so.

Where?

lee1538 * While all believe the Bible, some give to it more or less authority. Roman Church for instance, insist that it is only a reference point.

So does the Bible.
---Ruben on 10/12/11


Actually the quote about living by faith comes from Habbukuk....

2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by HIS faith.

You still claim that God isnt looking for faith? That he has to give it to us?

Obviously "dead" doesnt mean what you think it does, Mark_V.

The prodigal son considered "dead" by his father , was still able to come to his senses and return home where his father was waiting for forgive and restore him.

You can only deny the truth for so long, brother.
---CraigA on 10/12/11


--You say we are saved by our free will just like he does.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


I dont think thats what she is sayign at all. She is saying our FAITH IN CHRIST is what saves us. His power working thru us to turn us from sin.

Faith is not a work. God says so. So faith doesnt "earn" us a thing. Its simply what gives us access to the grace in which we now stand. (Romans 5:2)
---CraigA on 10/12/11


Christan, Luther never left the rcc and of all the reformers, was the most cowerdly. Luther, after his supposed converstion??(still taught WORKS) also stated that Paul was wrong on justification, because it contradicted free will.

Now what a load of garbage. Luther calling Paul wrong.

I don't put my faith in Philosophy or philosophers Christan, but in God's WORD. AND what is most interesting is Luther believed Paul preached FREE WILL.

So there folks, who are you going to believe, God or Luther the coward.



And Papa bear, if you understood anything about Israel, you would understand Romans 9-11 is about Israel.

Romans 9, Israel's PAST
Romans 10,Israel's Present
Romans 11,Israel's Future.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


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Christan, it is obvous you spend more time reading teh HISTORY of People than you do studying scripture. It's obvious you are brainwashed by these so called great men, but not a follower of Paul teh way he was of Christ.

Paul said, though you have 10,0000 instructers, but not many fathers, be ye followers of me the way I am of Christ.

Yes, I can see you have totally disobeyed that.

SO, even after I corrected my first statement, I really don't spend that much time on unimportant people anyway.

You obviously do. But there are no rewards in heaven for knowing facts about the lost!
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


Martin Luthers conversion experience:
An aged brother-monk who, came to his bedside, began to recite with much simplicity and earnestness the Apostle's Creed, 'I believe in the forgiveness of sins.' Luther repeated after him in feeble accents, 'I believe in the forgiveness of sins.' 'Nay,' said the monk, 'you are to believe not merely in the forgiveness of David's sins, and of Peter's sins, you must believe in the forgiveness of your own sins.'"
"In this cell at Erfurt died Martin Luther the monk, and in this cell was born Martin Luther the Christian.
So, was Luthers conversion WORKS? Nothing about being Born Again first and then saved.
He simply BELIEVED God, that his sin TOO was included in Jesus death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/11


Romans 11 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is
formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
---Poppa_Bear on 10/11/11


Romans 11 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is
formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
---Poppa_Bear on 10/11/11


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"Luther did believe in free will. Now where did you get your facts?

That was when he was an RC before God converted him, after which he wrote the book called The Bondage of the Will - that totally refute the "free-will" of the man. Go figure! And where did you get your facts?

This is precisely what I mean when people choose to "curse and swear" about someone they have no complete knowledge of or the chronological period of their life. They believe what they want to believe and prick on it for the rest of their life, making them sound like a charlatan, which dictionary simply defines as: "a person who pretends or claims to have more knowledge or skill than he or she possesses, quack".
---christan on 10/11/11


There is free will but it has it bounds established by God.

While you are on a cruise ship you pretty much can move around as you like, howbeit, have no power over where the ship is going much the same as we can do much of what we like, however, God's will be done regardless of what we do or desire.

In the final analysis we are still accountable for all our actions.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11


Just to re-iterate again, those who taught NO FREE WILL were in fact murderers. Isn't that interesting.

The behavior of those who taught man has no free will. WILLFULLY MURDERED against God's known will, thou shall not MURDER/kill.

It's an evil dangerous doctrine.

Next thing they will be killing YOU and saying it's God's will.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


This is my final question/statement.

WHY on earth did the RCC or even Luther FORCE Christianity on Jews if they honestly believed man had no free will to believe anything apart from God's intervention. OR did they actually think THEY were God doing the intervention?

And if that is a representation of God working through man who has no free will, then you say God Himself murdered anyone who failed to nuckle under the RCC.

Luther was just as guilty. Hated Jews because THEY would not convert.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


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Kathr, there is no difference in what you teach and what the RCC teaches. Salvation by the works of man. They use many reasons for their believes, and you use many reasons for your believes, but you both come out with the same works. You teach free will of man, they teach the works of man in order to receive salvation. You teach the power of man over an Omnipotent God. You strip the Bible of hundreds of passages to get to your theology. Just like the leaders of the RCC did through history when they added all the works man had to do to be saved. When God says, "We are saved by grace through faith" you say no we are not, just like Paul says here on another blog. You say we are saved by our free will just like he does.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


MarkV, Question. Well first a correction, Yes it appears Martin Luther an RCC did not believe in free will, as Augustine too was his spiritual father. Funny Augustine used his own free will to change his mind, who once believed in free will. I do believe Luther later in life changed his mind.

But to your prefvious statement, were men's FREE WILL involved in praying to Mary ETC, or was the WILL OF THE RCC forced on them? Is that why so many were/are caught in false doctrine, because they were taught these things and then told they had no will of their own to accept it or not? Burning a the stake sure can squelch free will huh! Calvin forced his will on others too.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


It is interesting that this false doctrine of no free will came out of the RCC who infact were tyrants and control freaks. Calvin too was a control freak.

The dangers of this false teaching gives Satan so much control over anyone by PRETENDING TO BE GOD, and holding captive your mind and will to actually do his will.

But I do see Luther used his own free will to bring 99?? accusations against the RCC.

AND then he used his free will to BACK DOWN!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


Many hate Luther and Calvin's teaching is because the come against the "free-will" of the man, which is Scriptural by the way!
---christan on 10/10/11


Luther did believe in free will.

Now where did you get your facts?

Calvin NEVER had a personal testimony of personal salvation. He stated he was Born Again at his infant baptismal and NEVER repented of that.

However before his death, he did repent of his doctrine of NO free will, and his exclusive elect doctrine and asked forgivness.

If perchance he was sincere, Calvin actually got saved on his death bed, leaving ALL he wrote before GARBAGE, and regurgitated nonsense others before, who believed in "GNOSTICISM" !
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


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One can believe in Predestination, which is scriptural, and still believe man has free will.

Unfortunately, because many don't understand predestination: God taking the Whosoever wills, and CONFORMING THEM to His Image, they use their own definition, not found in scripture.

Christ was who was predestined.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/11


All reformers denounced the RCC faith and their traditions. They begin from the Catholic faith following the believes of the Church. But it was as if Jesus Christ seating on the throne said to His angels, "It is time for the Reformation to begin." And the eyes of many were open. Because by the time the 1500 came along, the original simplicity of the early Christian faith was virtually nonexistent. All over Europe sinners were taught to confess their sins to priests, to pray to Mary, to buy "forgiveness notes" called indulgences, and to kiss statues of the saints.
This reformers were sincere Catholics wanting to redirect their countryman away from the traditions of men and lead them back to the pure truths of the Word.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


lee1538, your knowledge of Luther and Calvin are nothing short of people who believe in Arminianism. What's factual is Luther and Calvin were once from the Roman Catholic faith, hence in their earlier days they believed in what they were, RCs.

If you follow their biography from books written - and not the Wikipedia (what a wonderful reference for one to use) or even the internet, you will realise that in their latter days of their lives they did renounce the RC faith.

You are like the many fools who want to believe what you need to believe, that's why your facts are nothing short of incomplete. Many hate Luther and Calvin's teaching is because the come against the "free-will" of the man, which is Scriptural by the way!
---christan on 10/10/11


From Wikipedia - Martin Luther believed that Mary did not have other children and did not have any marital relations with Joseph.

Huldrych Zwingli directly supported perpetual virginity and wrote: "I firmly believe that [Mary], ... forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."

John Calvin was less emphatic in his open support of the idea, and neither flatly accepted or rejected it. He cautioned against the idea of "impious speculation" on the topic of perpetual virginity. However, Calvin rejected arguments against Mary's perpetual virginity based on the mention in Scripture of brothers of Jesus that were interpreted to imply that Mary had other children.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


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regeneration through baptism is NOT a catholic but a Christian doctrine, the error of some is that they put it in revers, baptism before belief. regeneration before repentance.

as I said before Martin never desired a seperation of the motherchurch, and was in his time more czatholic then the pope, politisation and greed from others made Luther to realise that there was no return to the origins possible. did Luther have all answers? NO, and neither did any reformer calim infaliability as did the popes and other sees
---andy3996 on 10/10/11


Ruben //But how does one go about Calvin being wrong on some of his teaching, due to his belief on Bible Alone?
---
One can believe in the entirety of the Bible but have the wrong interpretations on some doctrinal matters.

Such is the case with the Eucharist, Baptism, perpetual virginity of Mary, existence after death, church government, etc.

It is easy to see from the writing of the early church fathers that they all have different viewpoints on various subjects.

While nice to have one standard and ones set of beliefs, it has been the will of God that this not be so.

While all believe the Bible, some give to it more or less authority. Roman Church for instance, insist that it is only a reference point.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


Calvin held that infant Baptism was the new covenant version of circumcision and as in the OT Jews were required to circumcise the male members as a seal and a reminder of the inheritance of the nation of Israel, so infant Baptism is the same for NT believers, reminding them of Christ death and resurrection and new covenant. Just as OT Jews were not all circumcised with a faithful heart, so Baptism does not guarantee salvation in the reformed idea. The tradition actually goes back to the 2nd-century, Calvin has foot-notes of early Church fathers condoning the practice.
PS, Neither I, or many other Protestants prescribe to the practice
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/10/11


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