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Finish It Here October 2011

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God has not yet declared the end of the 7th day with the words- 'there was evening and there was morning... a seventh day', to correspond to the previous 6. Neither has God declared the 7th day 'good' as done with the previous 6 days. Strong irrefutable evidence the 7th day hasn't ended.

Evidence Warwick is no longer able to refute as his flawed reasoning testifies. Warwick fails to realise the 'evening and morning' expression is given in the past tense- at the conclusion of each respective day when the evening (or beginning) has already occurred.

God has not declared the 7th day ended or 'good' and Paul said it was still running in his day- Heb.4:9,10. Thus the 6 previous creative days must have been longer than 24hrs- Ps.90:4.
---David8318 on 10/17/11


You dont know me or virtually anything about me, except that I obviously know a lot about the Mormon church and defend them from lies and stupid attacks, and you twist that into your belief that I have not ever been a Mormon. No wonder you have some many wrong ideas.
---Rocky on 10/16/11

Rocky also knows more about Islam and Hinduism than everyone else too! Hahaha. That must also be the reason he finds the need to defend their misguided religions as well. As a matter of fact, Rocky must be smarter than all of us! Although one thing I can't figure out, since Rocky also knows more about scripture than the rest of us, why doesn't he defend the Bible and Christianity like he does these false religions?
---Jed on 10/16/11


While sin is transgression of the law, it can be more that just that.

All unrighteousness is sin 1 John 5:17.

A neglect to do good is sin James 4:17,

Unbelief is sin Rom.14:23,

but none of these are a transgression of the Decalogue.

There are numerous wrongs that the Decalogue does not address.

God writes to us that the law came so we may know how to measure sin specifically.
---lee1538 on 10/17/11


Warwick, consider the questions James_L asked (10-16-11) regarding the unscriptural claim that Christians sin?

And consider Romans 8:2.
"The law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death".
So which law do you put yourself under to be judged by?

Your doctrine even marks you as unsaved regarding 10 commandments because to offend in ONE point you are guilty of ALL (James 2:10).

And regarding your concern that Christians are free to get away with wrong under our liberty, don't worry as God disciplines us. No one profits by doing wrong.

But of great concern are legalistic doctrines which follow the same path as that of the foolish Galatians.




---Haz27 on 10/17/11


Paul said "I agree we are not sinners, but we do indeed posses the ability to sin...."

Correct. Scripture says we are not sinners.
Your reference to 1John2:1 however is not speaking to Christians as the context of the previous chapter reveals.
Heb 10:26 refers to those who continue under the law after they have received the knowledge of the gospel of grace.

But you are correct we do have to be wary of sin as Heb 12:1 says. And this sin is unbelief by turning to self-righteous works of the law and thereby be found a transgressor.
"if I build again the things which I destroyed (self-righteous works), I make myself a transgressor" Gal 2:18.
Do not frustrate God's grace. Gal 2:21



---Haz27 on 10/17/11




2 Peter 1, grow in grace or remain in the mire.
"Flee fornication". Are you a new creation and need to be told that? Yes.
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not, for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
"Need to be re-saved every day?"
Can a man stay in God's graces by making excuses or by abiding in God's guidance?
Funny how you call yourselves 'saved', then justify yourselves no matter what you do. Are you saved by Christ or you just saved yourself from guilt and accountability?
---Nana on 10/17/11


James L, I agree with you very much. But Haz does not make that distinction. I want him to do that because that is our status as believers. The spiritual part of us is sinless, but the physical part is not. I recommended to him to read what Christan had posted on another blog, but had to cut that because my answer was too long. But you are right. There is many problems claiming when we claim we are sinless, just look at those problems with one guy here who claims he is without sin, and so has the power to tell everyone they are lost, that he the light Jesus saw on the Cross, he can never be wrong even when he is. That is a big problem.
---Mark_V. on 10/17/11


HAZ, as I have said on a number of occasions Scripture defines sin as lawlessness, and unbelief. I see no contradiction there. If we truly have belief in God we will not plan to continue in lawlessness, after we have been saved.

You would have us believe that we are free to commit any sin we like, when once forgiven, and to continue to do so. Not so.
---Warwick on 10/16/11


Mark, you make it sound like I reluctantly "admit" we are saved by grace. That is not so. I was saved by grace alone, decades ago, well aware then, moreso now there was absolutely nothing I could do to earn forgiveness.

I am well aware that everyone I know who has been saved has been saved by grace. No one can be saved otherwise.

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22.

My point is that after being saved by grace we are not free return to a lawless, sinful life-style. That is the continual habit of wilful sin. Not that we will never sin and repent, and be forgiven (1 John 2:1).

You know that those forgiven must not do this, so I do not get your point.
---Warwick on 10/16/11


Warwick, you are failing to read my posts properly again. I did not say you claimed we are under law. Instead I asked you, based on the definition of sin in 1John3:4 (sin is transgression of the law)if that was your basis of saying Christians sin. If we are to understand scripture then we need to ONLY use God's definitions of sin.

And remember the wages of sin is death. But our old man is crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6) so how can we be accused of sin (transgressing the law)? If your in Christ then the law is ended (Rom 10:4).
---Haz27 on 10/16/11




1)Rocky...I don't believe you have ever been LDS.
---KarenD on 10/15/11 on What Do Mormons Believe
You are wrong. And that is a good example of your poor judgment. You dont know me or virtually anything about me, except that I obviously know a lot about the Mormon church and defend them from lies and stupid attacks, and you twist that into your belief that I have not ever been a Mormon. No wonder you have some many wrong ideas.
---Rocky on 10/16/11


Mark V,

Believers are sinless. If I'm not mistaken, you agreed with that about two weeks ago when I wrote that we are sinless in spirit, but sinful in flesh.

Though Haz and I do not use exactly the same wording, we are essentially saying the same thing. He has provided more than enough biblical support.

So the only thing I could add is a few questions:

Does God give take a sinful heart from us and replace it with a sinful heart?

Are we still dirty after God has cleansed us?

Are we a new creation, yet the same old person?

What part of us is born again?

Considering sin causes death, are you saying we die spiritually every time we sin, and need to be re-saved every day?
---James_L on 10/16/11


Haz, sorry but believers are not sinless. When you put down passages that show the difference between both, sinners and righteous, does not proof your point. The writers of Scripture expressed the word righteous to show the difference between sinners made righteous by the righteousness of Christ, and the others who need the righteousness of Christ. Yet never suggesting the righteous don't commit sin, but that they have been made spiritually righteous. The writers know that the righteous still sin and the reason they warned the rithteous not to sin. If you were sinless you would never sin, but you do. If you don't want to call them sinners, go for it, but it's only denying they sin when they really do.
---Mark_V. on 10/16/11


Well I am sorry to here that your wife has had numerous affairs and to be quite frank only you alone can be a father to this child or even work out your marriage. I am not a man so I cannot possibly comment. however being a mother I could love any child because ill can come about due to the circumstances... but the other that would be one long haul and hurt. Judge carefully God know's your heart but would expect you to love the child and forgive her....

the other side is.. If remarriage is permitted for fornication then only you can decide several men say's she's unfaithful badly.

I am sorry!
---Carla on 10/16/11


Warwick, I notice when you answer,
You admit we are saved by grace through faith, and admit believers who are saved already do sin. Then you turn around and say, but wait, you are not saved because how about the works?
Now Scripture is clear, we are saved by Grace through faith. It is a done deal. Saved is past tense. Eph 2 tells us the events as they happen. Lost in trespasses and sin. God makes us alive. Seats us together with Christ in the heavenly places. This is all past tense. And to make sure that we understand correctly, the Word of God says, "It is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone boast"
But you come back and say, what about works? You don't realize your contradicting what God has already said?
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


Mark you did not answer 1 of my questions.

2 Peter 2:20 "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."

Hebrews 10:26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."

1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Are you saying all these Scriptures do not refer to Christians who sin?
---Warwick on 10/14/11


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Haz, you are a worry. You wrote:

"Your claim that Christians sin lacks any scriptural support" ??? You are deceitful, I have never said we are "under" law, because we we are saved by grace, not law.

Show me where I have said we are "under" law?

Jeremiah 31:33 "...I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."

Hebrews 8:10 "...I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

What is this "law" referred to in both Jeremiah and its echo in Hebrews?

Can those saved by the grace of God, through the finished work of Jesus upon the cross, live in rebellion to this law?
---Warwick on 10/14/11


Rocky you asked where I got the definition of 24hr day. From dictionaries, e.g. the Holman Bible Dictionary p.386 which says Genesis 1:5 defines "a 24hr period" Do you know of any other time period made up of an evening and a morning?

The standard Hebrew lexicon defined 'day' in Genesis 1:5 "as a day of 24hours."

"day" is used with a number as as a singular or plural outside of Genesis 1 410 times, always as a 24hr day.

Read Numbers 7:11-78 and tell me whether these days with a number (eg on the first day) are 24hr days, or some unknowable length of time?

We also use 'day' on its own, without a number to mean when, or the daylight portion of a day.
---Warwick on 10/14/11


--I have debated several points with you and presented scriptural evidence to support my beliefs and you dismiss them under the pretense that you know the truth and no one could possibly show you anything.--

He's in the "teenage" years of his walk with Christ. We all know that phase... "I know it all already. I dont need to learn anything else."

He's gonna have to learn the hard way because his heart is hard as a rock right now.
---CraigA on 10/14/11


Mark, a question. Hebrews 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised."

Endurance of what?
---Warwick on 10/14/11


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Haz


I agree we are not sinners, but we do indeed posses the ability to sin.1 John 2:1 Heb 10:26

Why would Christ teach His disciples to ask for forgiveness in His model prayer. Matt 6:21

We are taught to be vigilant and always abstain from sinful acts, but we indeed can sin.

Their is a difference between sin and transgressions. Ex 15:26 Ex 16:28 Jos 24:19, 1John 1:9

Sin comes from not keeping Gods commandment not by breaking the law. Lev 4:22-27

Unrighteousness comes from breaking the Law, that is why we are righteous through Christ sacrifice. Is 24:5,Rom 2:27 Php 3:9 Rom 8:10

We still must keep His commandments John 14:15 John 15:10

Paul
---Paul on 10/15/11


Paul, I know the Truth, because I know Christ with the help of the Spirit and a lot of studying on every subject I discuss.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11

Mark

I also have a connection to God throught the Spirit with much study.

And I have corrected you with scriptures which you disregard, you choose which scriptures are truth and which are not, and they are ALL truth.

For example,you say you cant backslide, I produce 2Pet 2:20-22 and you disregard it.

And I do not teach works for salvation, I teach works for reward.

Righteousness comes by Christ not by the law, but we must be vigilant in the keeping of our relationship with Christ.

He wont leave us, but we can leave Him.

Paul


---Paul on 10/15/11


Warwick- the 'evening morning' expression is PAST TENSE- 'And there was evening and there was morning' (NIV).

To say 'and there WAS evening... (a beginning)' denotes a day had a beginning which by the end of the day would correctly be spoken of as in the past.

You say- 'Therefore using your reasoning the Saturday never began'. How so if the past tense statement correctly refers to the 'beginning' (evening) as being in the past? The 7th day began (Gen.2:2). When it ends, God will say (past tense)- 'And there WAS evening (begining) and there WAS morning (end)... a 7th day'.

Saying 'the lack of the 'evening morning' expression means the day never began' is as nonsensical as saying the inclusion of it means the day never ended.
---David8318 on 10/15/11


Paul and Warwick:
You misunderstand scripture. Your failure to answer the many scriptures I provided showing that Christians cannot sin/are not sinners confirms this.
---Haz27 on 10/14/11

Either that or we don't have the idle time you have.


Paul
---Paul on 10/15/11


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Paul & Warwick: You say Christians must "repent". Do you understand what we repent of?
To "repent" means to turn away from/stop the offence. But we know that Christians often slip up on the same offence again.
How about you? Have you ever committed the same offence after "repenting"?

But Heb 6:1 shows repentance is from "DEAD WORKS". Dead works is self-righteousness through the law. Paul, in Phil 3:9 repented "To be found in him (Christ) NOT having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ".

Jesus set us FREE from sin John8:36. Why do you claim he didn't and we still need to repent of transgressions (sin)?
---Haz27 on 10/15/11


Paul and Warwick:
You misunderstand scripture. Your failure to answer the many scriptures I provided showing that Christians cannot sin/are not sinners confirms this.

Your claim that Christians sin lacks any scriptural support.
So are you saying we sin (1John3:4) because we are under the law? The alternatives are the sin of unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9) or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29).

When God said in 1Pet 4:18
"If the righteous are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?" we see 2 different groups.
Group 1: Righteous
Group 2: Sinner.
Why do you identify with the 2nd group?
Are you not righteous in Christ?
---Haz27 on 10/14/11


Warwick 2, You seem to think because people have knowledge of the Truth they are saved. That is not a fact. Many athiest have knowledge of the Truth to attack the Truth. Apostates are not true believers. If you go to Hebrews 10: you will hear the writer telling them they have great need of endurance (v. 36) so that after they have done the will of God they may receive the promise. If they, those who had knowledge of the truth, but remain with the New Covenant and put their faith and trust in Christ they too would obtain the promise. They had not obtain it yet.
(V. 30) tells us,
"But we (the believers) are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul" They had faith already.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


David, each Middle Eastern day begins at evening. Saturday begins sunset Friday. Biblically speaking, a 24hr day is a period of darkness, followed by a period of light.

"And there was evening" means Friday's finished, Saturday now begins.

"and there was morning" means the daylight part of Saturday begins.

The next "And there was evening..." signifies Sunday now begins.

You say the lack of "And there was evening and there was morning" regarding the first ever Saturday means it has never finished. However you are wrong as this term refers to both the beginning and the ending of a 24hr day. Therefore using your reasoning the Saturday never began.
---Warwick on 10/14/11


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Paul, I know the Truth, because I know Christ with the help of the Spirit and a lot of studying on every subject I discuss. The first study was who God really is. I present His sovereignty before I present anything men does. If I don't know something, I don't speak against it. I'm here to help others who say they are Christian with the Truth. You are a pastor and I thought you would had a passion to learn the Truth, but you don't care for someone correcting you. If I was wrong on something then correct me with Scripture. Your works salvation is false. You can never earn your way into heaven. You have to be born again of the Spirit, made alive by God. Drawn by God, that is the Word of the Lord. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


Haz

Are you trying to say that after conversion you have not sinned?

This is dangerous for it would mean you have unrepented sin in your life and satan has fooled you into believing you have no sin.

Unless you have absolutely stopped breaking ANY of Gods commandments you are still sinning and need to repent post haste.

Paul
---Paul on 10/14/11


And when someone teaches, they need to know the Truth
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11

Mark

The problem with this is that you believe you are the all knowing one who has all the truth.

I have debated several points with you and presented scriptural evidence to support my beliefs and you dismiss them under the pretense that you know the truth and no one could possibly show you anything.

I see how you relish those who agree with you and congratulate them on the truth well presented.

But when someone disagrees with you they simply don't know the truth and they are disagreeing with the Word, to you.

Have you ever bothered to tune in to my broadcast to see first hand?

Paul
---Paul on 10/14/11


Rocky,
It was actually on this blog on 10/13/11 that Jim posted what his wife confessed.
---Nana on 10/14/11


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"Jim....Divorce the Harlot immediately!!!! [?]
Especially since YOU do not have any children with her.
DO IT NOW!!! [?]
It is allowed in scripture.
She WILL cheat on you again and again!!! [?]
BUT then again she's NOT married to you but to the father of the child. [?]
DON'T WAIT!!! DON'T HESITATE!!!! [?]
There is NO reconcilation! [?]
She did NOT repent, but got caught. [?]
There's the difference [?]
---John on 10/13/11"


...He who doesn't know & doesn't know he doesn't know [what he's talking about], he is foolish ~ shun him. Instead, heed Psalms 1 Jim!!!
---Leon on 10/14/11


Hi, Jim . . . yes, a hospital can make a mistake in baby identification. But her confession might not be a mistake, unless she's spiting you for not trusting her. I did not buy that a mixed child could be so dark. I think the colors would have blended. But I don't know all possibilities.

So, God is trusting you, now. This is about God and how He has you do things, now. If you are able to get with God in prayer and peace, first, then do what He has you doing, this is the way to go.

Jesus forgives us, after we have affairs with Satan in his arguing and complaining and unforgiveness. Does Jesus dump us? If you are a Christian, you can be her example of how to handle this, not letting evil decide which way you go.
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/14/11


Nana .... SWadly, if you look back on the blog you will see Jim's wife has confessed she does not know which of several black men is the father of her baby
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/14/11
Are you talking about the thread "Whites Have Black Baby"? I went back and looked and did not see that confession. What was the name and date of the confession post?
---Rocky on 10/14/11


alan8566_of_uk,
Thank you Alan, I did not know. I had suggested to Jim to get the test done,
for fairness sake being that his wife had not confessed yet, but I see that it is not needed now.

Now,
"My wife and I just had a black baby together but we are both white. She swears she never cheated on me but is it possible for two white people to have a black baby?"
,we know also that the baby was not by ancestry but by adultery.

Jim,
Civil and God's laws are on your side but I know that is no consolation.
Sorry Jim, may you find peace in your heart.
---Nana on 10/14/11


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Nana .... SWadly, if you look back on the blog you will see Jim's wife has confessed she does not know which of several black men is the father of her baby
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/14/11


hello! bro.Jim.. Let you know my heart hurts, a difficult situation,truly sorry hear 'bout the wife (the 3 black men)horrible betrayal... my earnest prayers will be that God give you strength do what you have to do! May the Lord be with you. The Lord is a strong tower.....
---ELENA on 10/14/11


Warwick continues to insist- 'If the lack of 'there was evening and there was morning-the seventh day' means the day never ended it also means... it never began.'

Warwick fails to realise that the statements 'evening and morning' were given at the end of each successive creative periods. All inteligent creatures would have realised God's creative process was ongoing- they didn't need to be told that he was starting to do something on each 'day'. Warwick would have been completely confused if he'd been around on any one of the creative 'days'- he wouldn't have know if any of them had started until they'd finished!

Warwick continues to fail to understand that it is what occurred during each 'day' that mattered, not how long it took.
---David8318 on 10/14/11


Leon:

Because many things the Bible says are literal, and many are metaphorical, and it is an error to mistake one for the other. Unfortuantely, there is much debate on which are literal and which are not. For example, Jesus is The Vine, but he was not made of wood, nor did he produce grapes.
---StrongAxe on 10/12/11


Okaaay! JESUS IS DIVINE!!! Is that literal enough StrongAxe?
---Leon on 10/14/11


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"John, we do have two white kids together in addition to this black baby we just had that is not mine. We have been married for ten years."
---Jim on 10/14/11

Has that child being proven to not be yours or his color is proof enough for ya? Has the wife confessed or infidelity proven beyond the childs color?
---Nana on 10/14/11


Haz, more Mighty Misunderstanding.

1 John 1:8, 2:1 show all Christians sin-not that all have a lifestyle given over to constant intentional sin. They stumble, from time to time, (human frailty), repent and seek forgiveness. <

If you cannot discern the difference between a stumbler, as per 1 John 1:8 and 2:1 and the wilful sinner of 2 Peter 2:20, I am sure God can! As Scripture says, the repentant is forgiven. However "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left" Hebrews 10:26.

I think you should ask God which of the above you are.

I have yet to meet any Christian who thought their works were good enough to earn forgiveness of sins.
---Warwick on 10/14/11


Mark are you saying the false teachers and false prophets were never Christian?
Are you also saying that any Christian who chooses to return to their old sinful lifestyle is not in the same jeopardy as they?

Are you saying that Hebrews 10:26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left," is not aimed at any Christian who deliberately keeps on sinning no matter whether they are teacher, prophet, or lay person?
---Warwick on 10/14/11


I am leaving to minister elsewhere.
---Eloy on 10/14/11


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Paul, I never answered your question because the blog closed. You said I was condescending. I said before to you, I love you. And you have a responsibility to the church you pastor. And when someone teaches, they need to know the Truth before they can help anyone. You could have a church that only teaches love, but sooner or later you will find yourself in trouble when someone ask you questions concerning salvation. And the gospel of Christ needs to be presented clearly. For only the Truth can bring faith. I never say to anyone that if they teach false doctrines they lead people to hell, because people who are lost are already heading to hell for two reasons, One, they have no saving faith in Christ and His works on the cross, second,
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


Paul 2:
Because all descendants of Adam are in a lost condition, they are under the curse of the Law. They have broken the Law, no one is able to keep the whole law, break one you break them all. That's why there's no salvation through the law. They all need faith, faith in Christ and His works on the Cross as a substitute for the works they could not keep. Once they are saved, they will still sin but will never be condemned, for no one in Christ can be condemn by the law, but now they have an Advocate when they do sin, in Jesus Christ, where before they didn't. When a person is reborn, he has the Spirit of God and is spiritually baptized into One Body in Christ, and set together with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus forever.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/11


John, we do have two white kids together in addition to this black baby we just had that is not mine. We have been married for ten years.
---Jim on 10/14/11


Paul:
A scriptural definition of sin is the only one to use. You'll understand scripture better that way.

And 1Peter 4:18 "If the righteous are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear" shows us that you are EITHER righteous OR sinner. You CANT be both.
Ijohn3:6-9 even tells us that those born of God CANNOT sin and anyone who does sin is "of the devil".
And 1Pet4:1 says we have "ceased from sin".

This all speaks of our position in Christ. Believe on Jesus and don't judge righteousness/holiness by works of the law.
---Haz27 on 10/13/11


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Jim....Divorce the Harlot immediately!!!!

Especially since YOU do not have any children with her.

DO IT NOW!!!

It is allowed in scripture.
She WILL cheat on you again and again!!!

BUT then again she's NOT married to you but to the father of the child.

DON'T WAIT!!! DON'T HESITATE!!!!

There is NO reconcilation!

She did NOT repent, but got caught.

There's the difference
---John on 10/13/11


This is what determines whether your name is written in the book of life. Not a "holy" lifestyle.
It's Christ in us that gives us the righteousness/holiness to enter the kingdom. Not our own efforts at lifestyle.
---Haz27 on 10/13/11

What your missing is that sin is not keeping the commandments which Jesus taught we should do, Those who love me will keep my commandments.

A transgression is not keeping the law.


I can see how you could mistakenly think this, but in actuality in 1 John 2:1 we can be caught in sin.

For instance, scriptures teach that if we don't keep the commandment to forgive we will not be forgiven.


Paul
---Paul on 10/13/11


Paul:
We agree that we are not under the law. Hence I ask how can Christians be accused of "sin" (transgression of the law, 1John3:4)?
What the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19
Where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN). Rom 4:15
Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to everyone that BELIEVES Rom 10:4.

The world will be convicted of sin because they believe not on Jesus John16:9. This is what determines whether your name is written in the book of life. Not a "holy" lifestyle.
It's Christ in us that gives us the righteousness/holiness to enter the kingdom. Not our own efforts at lifestyle.
---Haz27 on 10/13/11


Warwick, 2. The people this false prophets went after were those who were trying to make a new start and escape the pollutions of the world. The false teachers exploit these kinds of people. The false teachers couldn't deliver the freedom they promised because they themselves were enslaved to the very corruption which people were trying to escape from. They heard the gospel but then rejected the Christ of that gospel. That is apostasy like the people in Heb. 10:26,27). Such teachers were not made outside Christianity but were bred in the Church, half in and half out yet trying to seduce others. It was better that they had never known the way of the Lord for it is a worse punishment if you already knew the Truth and reject it.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/11


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Warwick: You said most Christians will "repent" whilst others don't.
To "repent" means to turn away from the offence/stop doing it. I know of no Christian who has done this in regards to lifestyle. They will slip up on the same offence again.
How about you? Have you ever committed the same offence after "repenting"?

But Heb 6:1 shows repentance is from "DEAD WORKS". Dead works is self-righteousness through the law. Paul, in Phil 3:9 repented "To be found in him (Christ) NOT having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ".

So, to turn back to the law AFTER REPENTING of your DEAD WORKS is a dog returning to its vomit.
---Haz27 on 10/13/11


I told my wife I wanted a DNA test and then she confessed that she had been with not only one, but three black men and that she doesn't know which one is the father. I am hurt, dissappointed, and disgusted at the same time. I have been sleeping on the couch and we are not talking much right now. I just stay at work most of the time. I was actually dissapointed that the baby wasn't mine even though he is black, because I would rather have a black child than to have a broken marriage. I don't know what to do right now. I know she would leave me in a heart beat if I did it to her.
---Jim on 10/13/11


He knows exactly what that means, Warwick. Everyone does. It means that if a mature spirit-filled Christian who has grown in the Spirit and overcome his sin turns back and denies Jesus Christ and turns to another "god", that man is doomed! No chance at returning, because he is crucifying Christ again if he comes back to CHristianity. I dont believe the HOly Spirit would lead him back anyway. So any man in that situation would have no desire to return.
---CraigA on 10/13/11


Mark if, as you say 2 Peter 2:20-22 isn't talking about believers what does vs 20 mean-"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."

I do not see the difference whether they are false teachers or false prophets, or tax collectors the principle is the same.
---Warwick on 10/13/11


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Warwick:
You admitted there are no scriptures to indicate what extent of lawlessness determines who is a dog returning to vomit.

What we do know is James 2:10 says for those UNDER THE LAW, to "offend in ONE point, he is guilty of ALL".
IF Christians were UNDER the law then we would be guilty of ALL. This differs from your ambiguous and unscriptural lifestyle of sin claim.

But we are NOT under the law, Rom 8:2 so how can we be accused/judged of transgression (sin)?
"Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to everyone that BELIEVES." Rom 10:4
Believers are righteous and NOT sinners, 1Pet 4:18.
And any who turn from grace to the law are dogs returning to their vomit.
---Haz27 on 10/13/11


Haz, all Christians will at some time commit sin, most will truly repent-be forgiven-1 John 1:8, 2:1.

Others return to previous lawless lives, unrepentant. 2 Peter 2:20-22 "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

God is our perfect judge.
---Warwick on 10/13/11


Warwick:
chria9396 asked you regarding your issue with lifestyle of sin:
"How can we tell who has done this, is it by 1 sin, or 2, or 20?"

You claim that occassionally transgressing the law is forgiveable, BUT a lifestyle of transgressions is not.
Surely scripture would explain what this limit/lifestyle of transgressing the law is if there is such a limit that proves someone is not a Christian.

God asks us to forgive 7x70. Are you suggesting He is less forgiving than what He asks us to be?
---Haz27 on 10/13/11


Jim, what were your results from the DNA test?
---John on 10/13/11


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Haz

I totally agree with you that we are not under the law.

However backsliding has nothing to do with being justified by the works of the flesh.

It has to do with being obedient to God and His Word NT or OT.

No flesh will be justified by the law, but all spirits will be judged according to what they have done in the flesh.

The law shows us the nature of God and His holiness which we are expected to walk in.

Paul
---Paul on 10/13/11


James, from my study an overall definition of sin is the actions by which humans rebel against God. I definitely believe that living in the flesh is sin.

Hebrews 10:26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left," To reach that point would be true misery, knowing what could have been, but tossing it away.
---Warwick on 10/12/11


Warwick, 2 Peter 2 is not talking about believers. In the context it's about false Prophets, and false teachers who were to come among them who were bringing destructive heresies. It also says the Lord who bought them. Here he is speaking of Israel. He gives an anology of a master who bought slaves and the slaves owed the master allegiance as their soverign, it's a parallel to Deut. 32:5,6 where God is said to have bought Israel, though they rejected Him. This were people who claimed to be Christian so that the Lord had bought them, but Peter mocks such a claim by writing of their coming damnation. Thus the context is describing the sinister character of the false teachers who claim Christ, but deny His Lordship over their lives.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/11


Warwick:
Regarding 2Pet 2 consider this.
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags ("DUNG" as Paul said, Phil 3:8).
So, this gets our own efforts at lifestyle in perspective. And James 2:10 says even YOU would be guilty of ALL commandments.

So 2Pet2:20 the way of righteousness (Christ Jesus)is really the ONLY way or, as Paul said "be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ" Phil 3:9

So 2Pet 2 is NOT talking about sinful lifestyle. Instead it speaks of returning to self-righteous works after having been saved by grace. The foolish Galatians (Gal 3) did this starting in the Spirit but then seeking to be made perfect by the flesh.
---Haz27 on 10/13/11


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Warwick, "This talks of those who have turned their backs on the world marred by sin, (see Romans 8:21) with its constant evil, but then gone back to it."
How can we tell who has done this, is it by 1 sin, or 2, or 20? I dont think so, but think this is key: "again ENTANGLED in it and OVERCOME." How does one who is OVERCPME appear to others? Can one be entangled and not overcome?
---chria9396 on 10/13/11


Haz, take a deep breath, find 2 Peter 2 and read carefully. The context of 20-22? It refers to those who came to know the way of righteousness through Jesus Christ, confessing their sins, and turning away from the old sinful life. But then returning to this old sinful life as a dog returns to its vomit.

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning." This talks of those who have turned their backs on the world marred by sin, (see Romans 8:21) with its constant evil, but then gone back to it. See also Luke 11:26
---Warwick on 10/12/11


Paul:
You quote Heb 10:26 but it refers to going back under self-righteous works of law. Sin is transgression of the law (1John3:4) and remember, what the law says it says to those UNDER IT Rom 3:19.
But Rom 8:2 "the law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has SET ME FREE from law of sin and death".

To "sin" means you're under the law and transgressing it. To be in this position means you are not in Christ (unbelief). Remember Jesus was crucified for us that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us Rom 8:4. We're ONLY righteous in Christ (not self-works).

Please consider the message to foolish Galatians (Gal 3) who begun in the Spirit but sought to be made perfect by the flesh.


---Haz27 on 10/12/11


***from "Confessing Christians" blog

\\Do you believe a Christian should live a lifestyle which is given over to persistent, intended rebellion...?\\
---Warwick on 10/11/11

It is not possible for a believer to sin because he is born again, regenerated, and sinless.

But it is defintely possible for a believer to live according to the flesh, as the apostle Paul warned against.

If you want to call living in the flesh sinning, I'm ok with that - just so we are speaking the same language. If so...

SHOULD a Christian live in persistent sin? no. I wouldn't advise it at all.

CAN a Christian live in persistent sin? yes. In misery.
---James_L on 10/12/11


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****from "Confessing Christians" blog

Warwick,
do you believe that God sometimes uses physical death as a form of chastisement?
---James_L on 10/12/11


Actually Haz,

I was referring to Proverbs 26:11 which is quoted in 2 Pet 2:22 which is when a fool returns to his foolishness.

If you want substantiation of ones ability to backslide you could refer to Heb 10:26, Ez 3:20 or any of the many other scriptures that tell of people sinning willfully after knowing the truth or righteousness.

Paul
---Paul on 10/12/11


Paul and Warwick:
You both refer to 2Pet 2:20-22. Can you can support your belief that it refers to a lifestyle of transgressing the law?

Note the scriptures before to get context.
v14 "having eyes full of (spiritual) adultery"
v15 "have forsaken the right way (Jesus)"
v18 "those that were clean". In Christ we were washed clean
v18 "liberty", "bondage" Here it speaks of either being under Grace or Law.
v21 "the way of righteousness" is in Christ only (not works of law). And the holy commandment see 1John3:23

So a dog returning to its vomit is one who was saved by grace but returns to self-righteousness by works of the law.
---Haz27 on 10/12/11


You don't question God only what He said.. Now you whine and cry because someone has seen your finger prints on the cookie jar. Sounds like, "Sniff, sniff, please Papa don't smack my fingers
---Elder on 10/12/11
Wrong again. Why is it so hard to understand? As I have written repeatedly, I dont question God, I only question if what is written is a correct, literal copy of what He said. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you really so dumb you cant understand the difference? Or do you intentionally distort so you can attack? Your whole post was bogus and childish and only proves your own poor judgment and immaturity.
---Rocky on 10/12/11


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Rocky I just rewrote what you said.
You don't question God only what He said. That's like saying you don't love your wife but you do love her body. I wrote what I did because you didn't say any thing "clearly." Now you whine and cry because someone has seen your finger prints on the cookie jar. Sounds like, "Sniff, sniff, please Papa don't smack my fingers..... I be a good boyee."
---Elder on 10/12/11


"I never question the Word of God, but unlike you I don't hold the Bible is the inerrant Word of God."
Rocky
Sounds like a "political run for office" response
(Yes, voters, I am firm on my position of non-committals and will not waver from my 100% solid stand of maybe or maybe not.....)
Sure, Rocky, I understand, you would never question something you don't believe is true in the first place.
---Elder on 10/12/11 Where is the Love in Christians
Your entire post is spurious. My statement above was needed and accurate clarification since the other poster thought I questioned God when really it was Bible accuracy I questioned. You're the one being "political" with distortions and bogus attacks.
---Rocky on 10/12/11


So it is impossible to live a lifestyle of sinfulness and be a Christian.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11

Lee

I agree, If a person returns to the vomit of his old nature he is no longer a Christian.

Paul
---Paul on 10/12/11


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