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Government Controlling Churches

Governments have been telling denominational churches what to preach and what not to preach. Now they are choosing pastors. If denominational churches don't obey they will lose their tax exempt status. Do you think government is having more control over denominational churches?

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NurseRoberts: I suspect that Elder is actually referring to limitations such as 'residential only' (which is allowed, but is not in any way anti-Church).

You are right, the regulations don't allow that.

If some people feel the government should pass any regulations that make things difficult for churches, sooner or later the same person will imply that it should not pass any regulations that make things difficult for criminals, terrorist, etc

No, I can see no way that such a regulation can be passed.

Elder: please provide your evidence (in terms of which regulation you mean, with name and number)
---Peter on 10/24/11


Jed 10/24/11 (3/4)
If I had said that business could hire employees without meeting requirements, you would say that they could not.
Another lie. There you go again PUTTING YOUR WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND ATTACKING ME FOR YOUR WORDS. What a sad attempt at deception.
Funny how everyone on this site distorts and lies, except you.
I never said nor believe that. I have agreed with many people. And I have disagreed with others without thinking or saying they lied or distorted. But you have posted obvious lies, gross distortions, and derogatory personal attacks over and over and over again. This post is a good example.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Jed 10/24/11 (4/4)
You are the only one with the truth, and you seem to know everything about every subject.
I can understand you're frustrated because your distortions and lies were so often exposed. But its sad that you continue lying. I also pointed out repeatedly that when I prove you wrong and you've no rebuttal or refutation, you respond with lies, distortions, vague allegations, and personal attacks like these. ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEN. They also again prove you're wrong on the issues discussed before because you chose not to respond to the merits of the issue but to launch into this vicious personal assault. And again you forget, thou shalt not bear false witness. Not Christian at all.
---Rocky on 10/24/11


--Jed 10/23/11 (2/3)
As I said, I am quite sure I have owned more businesses and hire more employees and contractors than you.
This again proves your poor judgment. You don't know anything about me but you are so sure of that statement. If you really hired all those people and know more about hiring people than me how is it you have never heard the common term "casual labor"? Busted!
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


--Jed 10/23/11 (3/3)
BTW, why quote the commandment "thou shalt not lie"? You've already made it clear you don't believe in the OT commandments.
And another flagrant lie, I guess in case you haven't already made enough lies on this post or proved how foolish you can be. I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW WHERE I SAID I DON'T BELIEVE THE 10 COMMANDMENTS. And I quoted that commandment because it is one you evidently have forgotten about, as proven again by that post of yours. You are very lucky you are not Pinocchio or your nose would be several feet long by now. But it is still unbelievable behavior for someone claiming to be a Christian. You belie that claim.
---Rocky on 10/24/11




Jed 10/24/11 (2/4)
everyone else laughs at you because you are so wrong
Wow, there you go again thinking you not only know what EVERYONE does and thinks but that you can speak for them. -Rocky 10/24/11

I can know what others are thinking because they state it clearly in their posts. They state openly that you are wrong and lie, time and time again. And they openly mock you for your arrogance and distortions. So it's nothing extraordinary that I can know everyone laughs at you. All I have to do is read their posts.
---Jed on 10/24/11


Jed 10/24/11 (1/4)
Rocky, You have proven nothing
That's a lie. I proved repeatedly that you distorted what I wrote and lied. I also proved repeatedly that you make broad, vague allegations, like this one and others in this and other posts, because I proved you wrong on the specific statements and to make it more difficult to prove how wrong yours are.
You think you prove everyone on this site wrong in every argument
An obvious exaggeration and lie. Your gross exaggeration proves you have no interest in the truth but only make outlandish allegations. There you go again PUTTING YOUR WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND ATTACKING ME FOR YOUR WORDS. Again it proves the first point, you lie.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Jed 10/24/11 (2/4)
everyone else laughs at you because you are so wrong
Wow, there you go again thinking you not only know what EVERYONE does and thinks but that you can speak for them.
I have become convinced that you don't actually care about truth
Wrong again. Your lies and obvious gross exaggerations on this post alone prove just the opposite, that I am the one after truth while you don't even know what truth is.
you're just here to debate everyone just for to be argumentative, whether right or wrong.
Another lie. My statements have all been consistent and prove I write from a consistent set of beliefs.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Lets try to drag this back to the topic.

Elder, you said: When the Government Zones an area for no Churches then they cannot be established or built.

While goverment can set zoning rules, I can find no law that allows govement to allow zoning for NO churches. The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) of 2000 prohibits local governments from imposing regulations that place a substantial burden on religious institutions without a dmonstrable, compelling interest.
---NurseRobert on 10/24/11


I will not be responding to anything else you post.
Jed on 10/20/21
Why did you ever say you were not going to respond to my posts when you prove again that too is an obvious lie?
--Rocky 10/22/11
Jed, you never answered the question and I am still curious. You have made 6 responses just on this thread and responded on another since you said you would not respond to my posts. Why did you ever make such a statement when you obviously had little intent to follow it? Your word obviously means nothing, even to yourself.
Rocky 10/22/11

Reposting again to give you another chance to explain why you lied.
---Rocky on 10/24/11




Rocky, You have proven nothing. You think you prove everyone on this site wrong in every argument you have, but everyone else laughs at you because you are so wrong. I have become convinced that you don't actually care about truth, you're just here to debate everyone just for to be argumentative, whether right or wrong. If I had said that business could hire employees without meeting requirements, you would say that they could not. Funny how everyone on this site distorts and lies, except you. You are the only one with the truth, and you seem to know everything about every subject. Amazing.
---Jed on 10/24/11


--Jed 10/23/11 (1/3)
This is an absolute lie. This is a bogus quote you made up to try to defend your incorrect postition. .
No it is a real document on a real website. You obviously did not even try to find it before saying I lied. When I Google "casual labor" it is the top entry returned and from edd.ca.gov. If they would let me put the entire address I would. This proves again the stupid lies and bogus attacks you make and what little thought or support is behind your foolish statements.
Its amazing that you are not even embarrassed when I prove time after time that you are lying - and that it continues.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


"Casual labor is a common term used in the employer community to describe workers performing a variety of services, usually on a temporary or part-time basis. Often these workers are hired for just an hour, a day, or a week... are typically common law employees." -Rocky

This is an absolute lie. This is a bogus quote you made up to try to defend your incorrect postition. This fully describes a contracted labor. As I said, I am quite sure I have owned more businesses and hire more employees and contractors than you so I'm sure I would know about hiring people. BTW, why quote the commandment "thou shalt not lie"? You've already made it clear you don't believe in the OT commandments.
---Jed on 10/23/11


Rocky, casual labor is a bogus term. There is no such thing as casual labor.
Jed 10/23/11
The California Economic Development Department says you lie again. From their Fact Sheet:
"Casual labor is a common term used in the employer community to describe workers performing a variety of services, usually on a temporary or part-time basis. Often these workers are hired for just an hour, a day, or a week... are typically common law employees."
Another imperial assertion with no evidence or support provided, and wrong as usual.
Thou shalt not bear false witness, Jed.
---Rocky on 10/23/11


Rocky, casual labor is a bogus term. There is no such thing as casual labor. Either they are an employee or they are contracted labor. I remain correct that a business can not hire an employee without complying. And I also remain correct that contracted labor is not employed, they are hired to do a specific job. Employment laws make it clear that contracted labor is not an employee of the business.
---Jed on 10/23/11


8. For Ohio income tax purposes, how does Ohio define an employee?

there are other purposes.

for someone to say they won't respond to someone else is not uncommon here on this site.

i threw that up in someone's face once. did it really matter? i should not have done that.
---aka on 10/23/11


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Oddly enough, Jed, you are both right and wrong. It is true that contracted labor is indeed hired. HOWEVER, even people hired to provide service as stilled classed as employed.
--Peter 10/22/11
In common US business usage, contract labor and employees are considered two separate categories with significantly different legal treatment. But that's not the issue. The original discussion was whether you could have employees without complying with the usual tax withholding and paperwork. Jed said no. However he neglected to consider the special case of people employed as casual labor, a special category recognized in tax law. That case is a clear exception to what Jed said, and made his general statement wrong, but he refuses to admit that.
---Rocky on 10/23/11


Jed: 'Contracted labor is not employed, it is hired'

Oddly enough, Jed, you are both right and wrong. It is true that contracted labor is indeed hired. HOWEVER, even people hired to provide service as stilled classed as employed.

I am also uncertain as to whether you are using US legal terms (about which I have a basic, but not complete, knowledge) or whether you are using it in its everyday use.

In any case, 'contracted labor', if you take the term in its normal sense, actually covers almost all employment - almost all employees are under a contract, so unless the legal terms are VERY different from normal English, almost all employees are contracted
---Peter on 10/22/11


I used to think you were being serious but I have realized there is no way anyone could believe their own lies that adamantly.
--Jed 10/22/11
I am serious and YOU are the one that has lied - and repeatedly - which I proved, repeatedly. I see you are trying a new approach at deception. Because I proved you lied and you have no defense, you are trying to pretend it is a joke. But your subterfuge and perfidy are obvious. It's surprising you feel no remorse for all you lies and derogatory personal attacks. It shows that you are not repentant and continue in sin. And you still owe me many apologies.
---Rocky on 10/22/11


I will not be responding to anything else you post.
Jed on 10/20/21
Why did you ever say you were not going to respond to my posts when you prove again that too is an obvious lie?
--Rocky 10/22/11
Jed, you never answered the question and I am still curious. You have made 6 responses just on this thread since you said you would not respond to my posts. Why did you ever make such a statement when you obviously had little intent to follow it? Your word obviously means nothing, even to yourself.
---Rocky on 10/22/11


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Oh Rocky. At least you are entertaining when I need a good laugh. Your posts used to annoy me but now they are just comical. I used to think you were being serious but I have realized there is no way anyone could believe their own lies that adamantly. I know you must be just being sarcastic or trying to funny or something. And it is funny. That last one cracked me up.
---Jed on 10/22/11


Jed 10/21/11 (Part 2 of 2)
So Rocky, you think that the guy who works on your car, or the exterminator that sprays your home is your employee because he is contracted labor?
No, I would never think that. Hiring a contractor is obviously not the same as casual labor. It's different and totally irrelevant. You're just trying to confuse things again.
Rocky, you are the one who owes me an apology.
No, you are wrong again and still owe me. In fact, now you owe me another for distorting what I said in your new post. I can't believe you continue repeating the same errors over and over again.
---Rocky on 10/22/11


Contracted labor is not employed, it is hired. You need to learn the difference between employed and hired.
--Jed 10/21/11
I can't believe you're trying to hold to your lie despite all the evidence I provided. You look up the definition for employ - contract labor is employed as well as hired. Further I proved it with the definition of employee from the source you selected - the Ohio Department of Taxation, which stated "every individual who performs services" which certainly included contract labor. You are still flat wrong and still making a fool of yourself - just a bigger one.
Why did you ever say you were not going to respond to my posts when you prove again that too is an obvious lie?
---Rocky on 10/22/11


Jed 10/21/11 (Part 1 of 2)
you trying to correct me by saying that a church could hire contracted labor as their regular workers in order to avoid meeting the requirements for hiring employees is wrong, because they would make over $600/ year.
No I am not trying to say that. Another distortion by you. I only said that a church could have casual labor employees without doing all the paperwork required for other (W-2) employees. Please stop distorting what I write and putting words in my mouth then attacking me for your words. You have done this time and time again. Why are you so dishonest? That is not Christian behavior.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/22/11


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Dictionary definition of employee "one employed by another usually for wages or salary and in a position below the executive level".

Rocky, the key word in this definition is EMPLOYED. Contracted labor is not employed, it is hired. You need to learn the difference between employed and hired.
---Jed on 10/21/11


Rocky, you are the one who owes me an apology. Even if contracted labor are considered employees, which they are not because they are not employed by you. But even if they were, you trying to correct me by saying that a church could hire contracted labor as their regular workers in order to avoid meeting the requirements for hiring employees is wrong, because they would make over $600/ year.

So Rocky, you think that the guy who works on your car, or the exterminator that sprays your home is your employee because he is contracted labor?
---Jed on 10/21/11


You don't know what you're talking about at all. Very foolish.
--Jed 10/20/11
Jed, I proved that I was right and you were wrong using the common definition of employee and a definition from the site you choose, the Ohio Department of Taxation. Now you owe me a huge apology for your derogatory personal attacks. It would have been wrong to make such personal attacks even if you were right, but the fact that you made them and when you were wrong just again proves what kind of person you are, in many ways.
---Rocky on 10/21/11


Jed 10/20/11 (Part 2 of 3)
And contracted labor is not considered employees
Dictionary definition of employee "one employed by another usually for wages or salary and in a position below the executive level".
Ohio Department of Taxation FAQs on Employer Withholding #8:
"Using the com:on law rules, every individual who performs services subject to either the control and/or will of an employer, both as to what shall be done and how it shall be done, is an employee"
It has nothing to do with temporary or permanent, full-time or part-time, casual or W-2. When you hire someone to work for you as casual labor they are still an employee. You are flat wrong again.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/21/11


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Rocky, I posted no errors. You did. I said a business owner cannot hire EMPLOYEES without the requirements that I listed. You said he could. You are wrong. He can't. I said nothing about contracted labor which are not the business owners employees, you did. Which you were also wrong, because, as I pointed out, this exception only applies if they are paid less than $600 a year, and they ARE NOT considered the business Owner's EMPLYOYEES. You attempted to correct my statement that was already correct. So you were wrong.
---Jed on 10/21/11


Jed 10/20/11 (Part 1 of 3)
Rocky, why do you continue to argue disrespectfully.
That is a lie. I challenge you to show one place where I was disrespectful. I stuck to the facts. Are you whining because I pointed out you turned your earlier statement into a lie? Is your idea of being "respectful" overlooking your lies and distortions? The only one here being disrespectful is you in your post writing "You don't know what you're talking about at all. Very foolish." I never wrote anything like that while you repeatedly have made insulting and abusive personal attacks. THE ONLY ONE DISRESPECTFUL HERE IS YOU. If you want to stop me from pointing out your lies it's easy, just stop lying.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/21/11


Jed 10/20/11 (Part 3 of 3)
Why do you continue to nit-pick. Everything I said was right
And another mis-statement. You were wrong again as shown in Part 2. And I do not believe errors should go uncorrected. Shame on you for attacking someone for "nit-picking" just because they don't let your mistakes go by uncorrected. You are the one "nit-picking" for attacking a correct response while trying to prove your error was not one. Again it is actually you doing what you wrongly attack me for. Unbelievable.
And all this after you said you would not respond to my posts. But the despicable personal attacks continue and prove you are not acting like a good Christian at all.
---Rocky on 10/21/11


Rocky, why do you continue to argue disrespectfully. Why do you continue to nit-pick. Everything I said was right and came right from the Ohio Department of Taxation's website. Everyone who hires employees must have an EIN and pay Worker's Comp. And contracted labor is not considered employees, that's the point of hiring contracted labor, everyone knows this. Just look it up. You don't know what you're talking about at all. Very foolish.
---Jed on 10/20/11


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Rocky

Jed is correct. A church would not be able to hire employees unless they did the correct filings with the IRS. There's no way of getting around that. I am the treasurer at my church so I am responsible for these types of things and know the law. In many cases you even have to do this to hire independent contractors since many contracted jobs cost over $600.
---Jim on 10/20/11


Rocky, that is correct. BUT, respectfully, this only applies to tempororay short term labor, and they would then not be considered employees.
---Jed on 10/20/11
They may be temporary but they are employees. There you go trying to distort things again to defend a prior statement that was wrong. You pick the silliest things to argue about.
I will not be responding to anything else you post.
---Jed on 10/20/11
No wonder since I proved so many of your comments wrong and you were only embarrassing yourself. I trust you will keep your promise.
---Rocky on 10/20/11
In less than 24 hours, you turned your statement from earlier today into a lie and continued with more distortion.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


\\Cluny, if the pastor paid self-employment taxes, his ministry was a sole proprietorship. You cannot claim self-employment if you are employed by someone else or a business or organization.\\

According to the IRS regulations, the last I heard, clergy are considered self-employed and NOT employees of the churches they serve. (Its possible this has changed.)

Oddly enough, this does not apply to organists, choir directors, and the like.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/11


He can hire a certain amount of casual labor without going through this process or he can hire contract employees through a service.
---Rocky on 10/20/11

Rocky, that is correct. BUT, respectfully, this only applies to tempororay short term labor, and they would then not be considered employees. Under federal law, If you pay contractors, or anyone for services valued at more than $600 in a calendar year, you need to get an EIN and pay into Worker's Compensation. All employers, no matter how small the business is, with one or more part-time or full-time employees, must have an EIN, withold income taxes, and pay into Worker's Compensation. That theory would never fly for regular employees of a church.
---Jed on 10/20/11


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Cluny, if the pastor paid self-employment taxes, his ministry was a sole proprietorship. You cannot claim self-employment if you are employed by someone else or a business or organization. And if you are contracted labor, that is the same thing as being a sole proprietor. The term sole proprietorship just means you are self-employed. When someone owns a business as a sole proprietor, there is no legal distinction between you and your business. You ARE your business.

If the church was never registered with the state and the pastor paid self-employment taxes, then from a legal standpoint, the church did not exist and pastor was a self-employed independent ministry with followers. Regardless if you actually functioned like a church.
---Jed on 10/20/11


\\Cluny, a sole proprietorship can indeed have employees. But as I said, there are typically no paid employees in churches that are owned by a sole individual pastor. \\

I never said a word about sole proprietorships, but I know it's easy to lose track of who said what.

I've never heard of a church owned by a sole individual pastor.

An independent ministry is NOT a church, but a lot of people on the street can't tell the difference.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 10/20/11


and there are no other paid employees. In the business world this is referred to as a sole proprietorship.
---Jed on 10/19/11
The point about no other paid employees is wrong.
---Rocky on 10/20/11
Cluny, a sole proprietorship can indeed have employees.
---Jed on 10/20/11
Thank you for making the correction this time.

it is illegal for a business owner to hire employees without these four requirements.
---Jed 10/20/11
He can hire a certain amount of casual labor without going through this process or he can hire contract employees through a service.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Cluny, a sole proprietorship can indeed have employees. But as I said, there are typically no paid employees in churches that are owned by a sole individual pastor. Usually all work is voluntary. But if a pastor DID want to have paid employees, he would first have to register his business with the State Tax Department, file a W9 for each employee to report their income and withold income taxes, obtain an Employer Identification Number (EIN) from the IRS, as well as pay into the state's Worker's Compensation fund, as it is illegal for a business owner to hire employees without these four requirements. Since you have already stated that your church did not do this, I can conclude that the pastor had no employees.
---Jed on 10/20/11


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and there are no other paid employees. In the business world this is referred to as a sole proprietorship.
---Jed on 10/19/11
The point about no other paid employees is wrong. A sole proprietor with self-employment status can have other employees, many, if not most, do.
Further, what meets the definition of a church is not affected by the method of business organization or ownership, and certainly not by whether or not the government has granted it non-profit status.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Cluny is the name of a very large and famous defunct monastery in France.
---God.is.everywhere on 10/20/11


Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man, and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Eph_6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
---aka on 10/19/11


Since we know about where Eden was, from the four rivers (somewhere in Turkey, Iraq, Jordan or Israel, or somewhere close), why have we never met the flaming sword from Gen3:24
---Jennifer on 10/19/11


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Cluny, if a pastor is claiming self-employment status, than that would generally mean that the pastor is actually the owner of the church and there are no other paid employees. In the business world this is referred to as a sole proprietorship. This is not really considered a church, but rather a self-employed evangelist preaching to people who give him money, that is why he would be able to claim self-employment, because he works for himself, not a legitimate organized church. Perhaps in the 80s things were different, but no one today can open a business account at a bank without actually having a legitimate business or organization.
---Jed on 10/19/11


Jed: I just thought that if someone opened/founded an eastern church, it would logically be a man. I am not sure!
---Peter on 10/19/11


\\Cluny, in order to be recognized as a business or organization (including churches) you need to obtain a business license from your state's Department of Taxation.\\

This was not the case in Texas when I lived there in the 80's.

And clergy are considered self-employed and NOT the employees of the congregation they serve by the IRS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/11


rocky,

firstly, my comment was not a complaint. secondly, God did not move out of eden with A & E. it was A & E and satan. (the world's government) thirdly, i was not talking about God. i was talking about people's control of people (east of eden). God called the endless strife in Gen 3.... He also hinted about how He would bridge the gap.

your sarcasm helps little. in your blogs, you strive way to hard for so little gain.
---aka on 10/19/11


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i believe they are more taking control through attendance majority....
---kevin5443 on 10/19/11


Peter, all this time I thought Cluny was a female! Haha. It's funny now. I don't know why. Cluny just sounds like a girls name I guess.

Anyways. I have never heard of any evidence of government telling churches what to preach. I have heard of preachers that are afraid to preach against particular sins, fearing they may be arrested for a hate crime. But I have never heard of this actually happening. I figure if the government could control what preachers preach, then sometime in the last few decades someone would have put a stop to Jeremiah Wright for his racist, anti-American and anit-government preaching.
---Jed on 10/19/11


The comments about Cluny and the church he started is irrelevant.

We are responding to the question about whether the government is telling churches what to preach.

Does ANYONE have any EVIDENCE?????

Let's not even accuse the government without some evidence..... remember the ninth commandment
---peter on 10/19/11


Cluny, I am not surprised that you were able to start a church in 1977 with less documentation than is required today. Tax laws have changed quite a bit since then, including the requirements that require banks to have a taxpayer ID number or some proof of exemption since banks have to report interest payments. And obviously if you had no church building the permit issues were irrelevant.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


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Cluny in 1977 there were not the strict government rules of today that came into effect as of 2001. Now if you have a certain amount of money in a checking/savings account you are not allowed to close it without the IRS being notified.
So my point is, things, issues and laws change in time.
I would not like to imply or indicate that someone is giving false information because "in our day we did it this or that way."
---Elder on 10/19/11


Cluny, in order to be recognized as a business or organization (including churches) you need to obtain a business license from your state's Department of Taxation. This goes for all businesses and organizations that collect money or have paid employees, including charities and churches. If you are a church or charity you will most likely register as a not-for-profit organization and obtain a tax exemption number. Also, if there are paid employees, such as the pastor, you need to obtain an Employer Idenfication Number (EIN) from the IRS in order to report the pastors earnings. A church has to follow guidelines like any business or organization.
---Jed on 10/19/11


\\That is because there was an established Church that started this mission or the date you started it. Correct me if I am wrong. Give us the year date.\\

October 1977.

And all we had for an address at that point was a post-office box.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/11


control of the people is nothing new and it has been in existence since A & E moved east of Eden.
---aka on 10/18/11
Since there was only A & E & God, are you complaining that God was controlling the Church? He seems to have done that quite a bit throughout history, but I dont think he is the subject of this post. Did he threaten A & E with a loss of their tax exemption?
---Rocky on 10/19/11


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Cluny give us the full details.
("When we started an Orthodox mission in my home town, we needed no license from any government agency to establish a bank account in the mission's name.")
That is because there was an established Church that started this mission or the date you started it. Correct me if I am wrong. Give us the year date.
Some things sound totally unbelievable but it is entirely possible depending upon the two items inquired about above.
I have also started three independent churches (2 in Roanoke and 1 in Ashland Virginia) and all we needed was an address to receive mail/statements.
---Elder on 10/19/11


"many pastors & televangelists have private jet intended for 'gospel' use."
mike
In relationship to "movie stars" and corporations what do you think the percentage ratio is?
Ugh.... how about those people who get Food Stamps and they don't pay taxes on them?
---Elder on 10/19/11


And where, or from whom, does a church get its business license in the USA, Jed?

When we started an Orthodox mission in my home town, we needed no license from any government agency to establish a bank account in the mission's name.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/11


As a business owner, I know first hand that no one can open a bank account under any business name without proof that the business exists and who operates the business. If you own Jim's Hardware Store and you want to open a business account, you have to present your business license or similar document to prove that you are the owner of Jim's Hardware Store. Churches are no different. Otherwise, fraud would be very easy as anyone could open an account for a fake church and solicit money for a church that didn't exist, or steal tithe and donation checks from their church and then deposite them into a fake account that they created in their churches name.
---Jed on 10/18/11


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Note that none ....show that government controls what churches preach or selection of pastors. ---Rocky on 10/17/11

just read acts.

control of the people is nothing new and it has been in existence since A & E moved east of Eden.
---aka on 10/18/11


The only case where I know that to be true is Mainland China. There, to be a pastor, you must be a member of the communist party. To be a member, in signing up, you agree that 'nothing is more important than the part' - not even God. So in China, to be a pastor, God must not be top of your priorities.
---Jennifer on 10/18/11


Steveng: In what way are governments telling denomiational churches what to preach? The term 'telling what to preach' is a very open thing. I know the blog gives you very words, but could you amplify here? Thanks
---Peter on 10/18/11


\\they don't pay taxes yet they use the roads bridges.
also, many pastors & televangelists have private jet intended for 'gospel' use.\\

How many local pastors do you actually know have private jets?

Please give the number.

Independent TV evangelists are not pastors, and their ministries are not churches.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/11


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"actually churches are abusing the system. they don't pay taxes yet they use the roads bridges."
Mike
That is a foolish statement. When is the last time you saw a church driving down the road. The members pay plenty of taxes and they are the one who use the roads. Plus, Churches do not get a tax break on gas road use taxes for their busses doing people like you a service either.
We will never miss Eloy as long as we have you.
---Elder on 10/18/11


actually churches are abusing the system. they don't pay taxes yet they use the roads bridges.
also, many pastors & televangelists have private jet intended for 'gospel' use.
---mike on 10/18/11


It is very clear that Cluny and Rocky have not been involved in establishing/building any Churches.
---Elder on 10/17/11
The two examples you cited, building permits and tax ID numbers, are laws that apply to everyone not just churches. If you want to defend your position, cite government controls specific to churches.
Further those have no substantive effect on what is or is not preached, or choosing pastors, the primary issues of this thread. So many people are ready to attack our government for anything, even making up lies to do it, and not recognizing the many benefits we get from our government. "Count your many blessings. Name them one by one" Include our government in your count.
---Rocky on 10/18/11


\\When the Government Zones an area for no Churches then they cannot be established or built\\

The local governments also determines zones where there will be no schools, or restaurants, or bars, or stores, or businesses, or industries, or residences, or.....

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/11


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\\It is very clear that Cluny and Rocky have not been involved in establishing/building any Churches\\

Shows how much you know about me, Elder.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/11


When the Government Zones an area for no Churches then they cannot be established or built. That certainly interfers with the preaching and Pastors. Even R/A Zones have to be rezoned if you can battle with the local government.
In order to get a checking account for a church you must have a tax exempt number issued even if you don't want the tax free status.
It is very clear that Cluny and Rocky have not been involved in establishing/building any Churches. Church ministries for existing churches maybe but I doubt that too. Of course they are both an authority on everything so I might be wrong....Yea, uh-huh.
---Elder on 10/17/11


\\You must be registered with the State in order to get bank/checking accounts... \\

Registered for what?

Not in my experience. I've been involved in the founding of several Orthodox parishes, and no state registration was ever necessary.

\\or try to errect a ministry building.\\

And what do you mean by this? Do you know yourself?

Any construction requires a building permit. Big deal.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/17/11


Steven has not told us which country or countries he is talking about. Isn't this a worldwide Internet place? So, why think everything about government and politics must be about the United States?? (c:

In the United States, I don't know how much control the government has. But there is control it can not have, if we simply meet and share in prayer without getting buildings and money so involved, "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/17/11


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You must be registered with the State in order to get bank/checking accounts... or try to errect a ministry building.
---Elder on 10/17/11
Everyone needs an identification number for a bank account and is subject to building codes and zoning laws. Why should churches be an exception? Are you upset because Churches don't get favorable treatment?
Churches actual do get extremely favorable treatment from government, with constitutional protection, the exemption of charities from income taxes, and giving individuals a tax deduction for contributing to church.
Note that none of this addresses the subject of the blog, nor show that government controls what churches preach or selection of pastors.
---Rocky on 10/17/11


If you were to go out and start a local church you would find out how much "government interference" there is very quickly.
Everyone seems to think there is none but that is not the case. Many think churches don't pay taxes but that is not the case either. In the State of Maryland you must be incorporated and file a church equipment/personal property inventory each year to stay in good standing with the State.
You must be registered with the State in order to get bank/checking accounts.
If you still think there is no government interference ask the ChristiaNet staff or try to errect a ministry building.
---Elder on 10/17/11


\\Governments have been telling denominational churches what to preach and what not to preach. Now they are choosing pastors. If denominational churches don't obey they will lose their tax exempt status.\\

Give specific examples, Steveng: Place, Church, Date, and the like.

\\Do you think government is having more control over denominational churches?\\

You don't actually think the worldly conventicle YOU attend is not a denominational church, do you?

It may be a denomination of just one congregation, but more likely it will be found to fit nicely in one of the existing denomination.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/17/11


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