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Is Salvation A Gift

To what extend does the law have on believers eternal life? Is salvation something that is strictly a gift or is obedience to law not required?

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 ---lee1538 on 10/17/11
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If your passport to get into Heaven is stamped with " I observed all 10 commandments". That will not be good enough.
Your passport must be stamped with the "Blood of Jesus Christ" to gain entry.
---JIM on 10/19/11

But if you have not kept Christs commandments, not the 10 commandment but Christ commandments, your destination could be rerouted.

Christ said you do not love Him if you don't keep His commandments, If you don't love Him then......

Paul
---Paul on 10/19/11


Rocky...Why are you so adamant in your persuit to achieve salvation based on what you can do.
---JIM on 10/19/11
Again that is a gross distortion of what I have written. I have made it very clear that I believe that salvation is a gift from God but that he requires love, faith, repentance, and that we lead a righteous life. Like others you distort and put false words in my mouth and attack those false words. Why do so many on this site do that? And you still have not answered the simple questions I asked of you on 10/17 below. Why do you chose to ignore them and instead attack me falsely?
---Rocky on 10/19/11


It would be helpful if more of those believing in salvation through grace only would explain the meaning of these quotes that seem to require obedience:
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


these kills

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
---TheSeg on 10/19/11


"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in
God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
---Theodore_A._Jones on 10/19/11




Jesus humbling Himself and being made in the fashion of a man humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death of a cross, for OUR SIN IS THE GREATEST GIFT GOD WILL EVER GIVE TO MANKIND!

The Bible isn't ABOUT YOU, it's about Jesus Christ.

It's ALL about Jesus Christ, from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation.
---kathr4453 on 10/19/11


Rocky, you condradict yourself. In previous threads whenever someone spoke out against sin and ungodly living, you attacked them and asked them if they keep all the OT laws. Now, here you are supporting salvation through works? Please note that this is a question in an attempt to understand what you believe. Which is it?
---Jed on 10/19/11


No protestant church after the reformation believed in works. That is why they separated from the RCC.
---Mark_V 10/19/11
Not true. From Wikipedia Reformation:
The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, ..


And this is why it's called Reformed Theology. It's reformed RCC.

Yet in many areas nothing was reformed. Infant Baptism, for one, which IS WORKS salvation. Many protestant churches today still practice Infant Baptism Regeneration.

Martin Luther did not leave the RCC to start a new church. He set out to reform the church and in the process was excommunicated.
---kathr4453 on 10/19/11


Ask this question? Salvation is free to all who call on his name Jesus. You cannot follow the laws or know them until he gives you understanding. Jesus my father in heaven can only give you understanding, I can only lead you to him.
---Dave on 10/19/11


The nature of a true gift is, You may keep it or give it away. If you can't give it away, it isn't a gift, but rather an imposition.
---God.is.everywhere on 10/19/11




In some defense of Rocky, we should remember that in the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matt 25), Jesus describes that reason for the salvation of the righteous as what the DID.
From Jesus other comments, I take it that the 'righteous' are only righteous from God's mercy.
But those who did not feed Him and so on, were not given mercy because they refused to help Him.
Yes, mercy is God's, but if we are not righteous, the mercy may be refused
---Peter on 10/19/11


JIM said: "If your passport to get into Heaven is stamped with " I observed all 10 commandments". That will not be good enough.
Your passport must be stamped with the "Blood of Jesus Christ" to gain entry."

Good analogy. I would say the passport would even carry the name "Jesus Christ".
I no longer live but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20)
Our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3)
If the root (Christ) is holy the branches (believers) is also holy, (Rom 11:16)
To make in himself (Christ) of the two, one new man (Eph 2:15)
---Haz27 on 10/19/11


Rocky...Why are you so adamant in your persuit to achieve salvation based on what you can do. It is not what you can do, but what has already been done for you. Receive that gift through Faith.
The law is to show you that you are in need of a Savior.
---JIM on 10/19/11


francis....think about a passport. A passport has all the pertinent info needed to get into that country.

If your passport to get into Heaven is stamped with " I observed all 10 commandments". That will not be good enough.
Your passport must be stamped with the "Blood of Jesus Christ" to gain entry.
---JIM on 10/19/11


I would appreciate it if more of those believing in salvation through grace only would answer the questions I asked Jim and explain what they consider living a righteous life.
Are you saying that you become perfect and you dont violate any of God's commandments, including what Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount? Or that all commandments cease for you and it is OK for you to do whatever you want? Or that you can sin and repent? Which is it? Or if some other, what?
And regarding predestination, why did God even bother to create an Earth and bring you here if you were saved already?
---Rocky on 10/19/11


No protestant church after the reformation believed in works. That is why they separated from the RCC.
---Mark_V 10/19/11
Not true. From Wikipedia Reformation:
The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice, especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices that they saw as evidence of systemic corruption of Church's Roman hierarchy. The Protestant Reformation began in 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church
---Rocky on 10/19/11


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We do not earn salvation by our obedience, for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. E G white Step to christ page 62
---francis on 10/19/11


There are two errors against which the children of God need to guard. The first, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God, that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

E G white steps to christ page 60
---francis on 10/19/11


He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

These are written!
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Rev21:1-5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
---TheSeg on 10/19/11


Consider further: For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor. 3:6b
---lee1538 on 10/18/11
LOL Can you explain how obedience to ANY of these kills:
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
---Francis on 10/19/11


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Yea, well, "everyone's going to heaven." Uh-huh, yea sure.... everyone's going the problem is that not everyone is staying. Some will stand the Great White Throne Judgment and then be cast into the Lake of Fire. (Unless of course you are a JW then you are going to Hell..)
---Elder on 10/19/11


\\Who on earth say that?\\
---Nana on 10/19/11

It's the natural implication of someone trying to work for their entrance into heaven. I've heard different versions of it thousands of times. Sounds like:

"Look at all the bad stuff he does, you know he's going to hell"

So I have asked many "aren't you a sinner, too?"

The response is usually "But I'm not as bad as that guy"

So they are boasting in their own ability to obey God better than someone else, and thereby earn their own way into heaven
---James_L on 10/19/11


I believe everyone is going to heaven.
Because I dont see anyone who knows how to do good.
And as Christ said there is none good but one, that is God.

You think because you help an old lady cross the street.
Give food to the hungry, money to the poor.
Go to church, read the bible, even say I believe in God!
That, these are the things God want from you.
These are the things you should already be doing.
So, what good thing can you possibly be over looking?

God told you! Im giving you the gift of life, but where is your faith?
Christ even said no one can, unless the father draws him.
What is it you dont see? Faith!
Peace
---TheSeg on 10/19/11


//Truly outrageous,when Christ said your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees that is exactly what He meant.//

The Pharisees "righteousness" came from their outward actions, the righteousness which comes from God comes from the heart. Consequently, when one's righteous actions come from the heart, they have exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees.
---Rod4Him on 10/19/11


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Paul, I am not amaze that you and many other pastors teach works for salvation. That is what is taught on the pulpit in many churches today. No protestant church after the reformation believed in works. That is why they separated from the RCC. But as I can see many love works for salvation, since it gives them something to glory about concerning salvation, many have drifted back to the RCC doctrines. But only God through the Spirit can make a lost person alive to Christ, provide faith, new heart, and understanding of spiritual matters, only God can give those gifts to people. And those gifts you don't refuse, they just come to you from God while you are still dead in sin. Can a dead person say to God, I don't want to come alive?
---Mark_V. on 10/19/11


"Well, I'm going to heaven because I did this or that, and you didn't"
---James_L on 10/18/11

Who on earth say that?

However, the Bible says:
Mark 7:21: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed..."
Jude 1:18: "How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts."
1 Corinthians 6:9_10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
---Nana on 10/19/11


"Well, I'm going to heaven because I did this or that, and you didn't"
---James_L on 10/18/11

James

Someone who truly understands the sinful condition of man, and the only way out from under that burden is through the shed blood of Christ, would never claim such a boast.

However, those saved must live a set aside life and refrain from sin with the understanding that if one does sin 1John 1:9 he has an advocate with the Father.1John 2:1

And if you will not 1John 2:3, to know Him is to keep His commandments.


Paul
---paul on 10/19/11


Just as it is a gift when someone pulls us out of the water to keep us from drowning, so also it is a gift when God saves us from our own stupidity and ignorance. :)
---God.is.everywhere on 10/19/11


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peter, you say, "...it may be a sin, because its purpose is to hurt, not correct". So how do you define what Elijah was doing when "he mocked" the Baal prophets according to your understanding? Was he "hurting" or "correcting" the Baal prophets?

"Ironical" isn't it?
---christan on 10/19/11


Francis //I will post this:
1. Do not worship other gods, ...the 10 commandments.

What you follow is known from Scripture as that ministry of death & condemnation written on letters of stone. (2 Cor. 3:7,9)

Consider further: For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor. 3:6b

Too bad your Bible does not have 2 Corinthians.

What you think you are following is not Jesus, but an ethical system.

Adventists believe obedience to law is what enables one to merit heaven.

As stated before, Adventists believe we are saved by grace, but grace to them is simply a provision that enables them to obey the law and thus merit salvation.

You cannot deny that is what Ellen White taught.
---lee1538 on 10/18/11


\\It is a gift, but the man MUST repent.\\
---CraigA on 10/18/11

what do you mean by repent?

And are you saying that if we act first in repentance, then He will reward us with a gift?

Sort of like if someone stops robbing banks, then the prosecuting attorney will drop all the charges from the last 27 robberies?

Doesn't that leave a little room for boasting? Like:

"Well, I'm going to heaven because I did this or that, and you didn't"
---James_L on 10/18/11


I stand in amazement once again at the self interpretation of scriptures that goes on here.

Christ was not being sarcastic or parabalisticly at all, he was teaching the multitudes straight out.

When some of you are backed into a corner, instead of conceding, you start inventing, and fabricating.

Attempting to tell us what Jesus really meant.

Truly outrageous,when Christ said your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees that is exactly what He meant.

Its obvious that Paul taught in Gal 5:14 that the law is fulfilled by an act of righteousness in keeping with God's nature.

Paul
---paul on 10/18/11


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CraigA //
It is a gift, but the man MUST repent.

Does scripture really state "that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord and repents,shall be saved."? Acts 2:21

I am not saying you are wrong, howbeit would like a scriptural reference.

It seems to me many of us have found Christ in our lives and after we are saved, the Spirit has enabled us to see what are sin really is and then to turn away from our ways to His.
---lee on 10/18/11


It is a gift, but the man MUST repent. We dont deserve to be forgiven, but because our God is a god of mercy and grace, He has done what was necessary to forgive us in Jesus Christ

Isaiah 45:22
Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth,
for I am God, and there is no other.
---CraigA on 10/18/11


WE ALL CRUCIFIED CHRIST
---kathr4453 on 10/18/11
I never crucified him. He died for my sins, a choice he made and I will be forever thankful. But that is not the same as saying I crucified him.
---Rocky on 10/18/11


Rocky on 10/18/11: As to your comments about the Jews killing Jesus. Yes, it was the priests who plotted to have Him killed. That is true.

But it is not the whole truth. It was the gentile Romans who actually carried out the act of killing Him, so that everyone (Jew and gentile alike) was responsible.

And more than that, since Jesus died for the sins of ALL, everyone, from Adam to the last human born, including you and I, is responsible for Jesus' death.
---Peter on 10/18/11


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Christian: 'When did sarcasm became a sin?' Your comment about Elija is true- he certainly did not sin there. But there are two times people use sarcasm - when there is something that can be righteously mocked, as was the case with Elija, and times when sarcasm is used simply for the pleasure or convenience of the person using sarcasm.

In the second case, it may be a sin, because its purpose is to hurt, not correct

It is a thing we must be very careful in using, and better use it as little as possible
---peter on 10/18/11


---MarkV on 10/18/11 (continued)
You can jump and dance if you like,
Wow. Making up more things to attack me for. Really sad and disgusting. And yet you never answered the simple question I asked, "Is murder a physical act or a spiritual one? Does it affect the physical or the spiritual?" Please stop the childish attacks that only dishonor yourself and answer the simple questions that were asked.
---Rocky on 10/18/11


When did sarcasm became a sin? Dictionary defines sarcasm as "harsh or bitter derision or irony". When Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal, did he sin against God?

"And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god, either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." 1 Kings 18:27

If one actually believe that Christ was teaching man that unless they have the righteousness of the Pharisees, they can go to heaven, then what becomes of Christ righteousness? Basically the doctrine of the Pharisees was wicked, period. So, doesn't this deserve a sarcastic reply like Elijah was to the prophets of Baal?
---christan on 10/18/11


Christan, I guess you failed to read teh comment that teh Jews alone killed Jesus. Acts says otherwise...

BUT teh botton line is, Jesus said I can lay down my life, and I can take it back. no flip flopping here.

Jesus was for-ordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD to die. Isaiah 53 gave an account of it all WAY before it even happened. Even those sins of those who crucified Him were layed upon Christ at Calvary.

WE ALL CRUCIFIED CHRIST

That is why Jesus could say, forgive them for they know not what they are doing.
---kathr4453 on 10/18/11


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---lee1538 on 10/18/11
Let me save you some time:
I will post this:
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

And say that we are saved by GRACE and not because we obey these, but once we accept Jesus we keep God's commandments which show we love God and our neighbours.

You cannot deny this, so you then attack E G WHITE and say that E G white teaches salvation by works. I ask you to post it and you have no sourse. See the time i saved you?
---Francis on 10/18/11


---MarkV on 10/18/11
And yet we are here on earth physically, in the flesh walking around. Now, are they the same? I don't think so. You need to stop reading Mormon material or Judism.
There you go distorting again. Seems like that is one of the favorite tools of some Christians on this site. I never said what you wrote. You put words in my mouth and attack me for your words. That is very dishonest. Thou shalt not bear false witness. And then to use it as a further attack on Mormons and Judism is really pathetic. I expected much better of you.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/18/11


Eph.2:8-9, For by grace are you saved through faith, & that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
---Reba on 10/18/11


"No one killed Jesus" someone said? While it's true that He laid His life down for His people through His death - it does not absolve those who were involved in that wicked act of hanging Him on that tree.

Amazing how one uses Acts 4:26-28 to defend the Jews and in the very same breath says "no one killed Jesus". This flip-flopping shows one speaks without conviction of the Scripture.

Did Peter flip-flop? NO! He simply told the Jews, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 5:30
---christan on 10/18/11


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francis //And although salvation is a gift available to all, who exactly is it given to:Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,
---

Yes we all realize that Adventists believe they can become righteous by obeying the law, howbeit scripture is very plain that one is not justified (declared righteous) by the law.

Ro 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

And if one becomes knowledge of sin, then and only then can Jesus be his savior. Obviously your salvation is of works, not a gift from God as explained in Eph. 2:8-10.
---lee1538 on 10/18/11


1 John 3:7 "...: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

kathr4453,
I need not get my sword out every time I hear the word "righteousness"
for it is not an offence to me.

1 Timothy 6:11 "... O man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."

Righteousness is not an attainment or a title, rather it is a means to an end
as godliness, faith, and love..., even an end in itself. Not by man's judgment but by Gods.

Accountability, 2 Corinthians 5:10. Guess what? It will not be Christ in you that will be judged but you in Christ, "according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
---Nana on 10/18/11


Rocky, let me check. We are spiritually made alive together with Christ, seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus that is what Scripture tells us in ( Eph 2:4-8). And yet we are here on earth physically, in the flesh walking around. Now, are they the same? I don't think so. You need to stop reading Mormon material or Judism.
Jesus is the Spirit in us. When we worship Him, we don't worship him in the physical, we worship Him in the Spirit and truth. You can jump and dance if you like, but people who see you who are of the flesh might think you are crazy.
---Mark_V. on 10/18/11


Doesn't anyone get tired of this anti-semitic attitide that the Jews killed Jesus? What does scripture really say about that?
---Nana on 10/18/11
Wrong.
Rocky///


Rocky, no one killed Jesus REMEMBER, He freely laid down His own life for us. But you failed to read ALL who were guilty, including YOUR ancestors.

The Pharisees and High Priests did not torture and beat Jesus ...the ROMAN GENTILES DID! The Roman Gentiles put a crown of thorns upon His Head to MOCK not only Jesus, but the Jews as a whole.

And I don't recall a Jew piercing His side, or driving any nails in His hands.

YOUR ancestors did that!

---kathr4453 on 10/18/11


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How can the physical destroy the spiritual?
---Mark_V. on 10/17/11
You seem to think these are two mutually exclusive terms, relating to too entirely separate things. Is murder a physical act or a spiritual one? Does it affect the physical or the spiritual? I think it is a physical act with profound spiritual consequences.
---rocky on 10/18/11


I'm sorry Nana, but this is exactly what Paul stated in Romans 10. And not only so, Paul, a Pharisee, gave his own testimony in Philippians 3.


Romans 10
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
---kathr4453 on 10/18/11


Doesn't anyone get tired of this anti-semitic attitide that the Jews killed Jesus? What does scripture really say about that?
---Nana on 10/18/11
Wrong.
Mat 27:1... all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
Mat 27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
Mat 27:24 Pilate washed his hands saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
---Rocky on 10/18/11


1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
The bible does say that Jesus died for our SINS. Meaning that because we did not keep the law christ had to die.
And although salvation is a gift available to all, who exactly is it given to:
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
---francis on 10/18/11


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francis //To understand this question better, ask yourself this: God has given to me a free gift of salvation, How then should I live?

If you have been paying attention to the various posts you would already have an answer to this question.

The 10 commandments written on letters of stone are viewed as the ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7,9). How then should you live? Under that more glorious ministry of the Spirit.

God ministers are "ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2Co 3:6

Suggest your acquire a Bible that has 2 Corinthians in it.

---lee1538 on 10/18/11


No one can accepts the righteousness of Christ as hiw own, and purpose in his heart to live an unrighteous life is a christian. So those who accept the righteousness of christ continue in the pursuit of a righteous life in that they obey the commandments/ laws of God.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
---Francis on 10/18/11


"Mark, why would Christ teach the people that their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees or they would not enter Heaven?"
Paul
---paul on 10/17/11

Paul describes a pattern (Romans 12,13,14,15) which if followed would yield a righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisee of Jesus day. Note that it was their acting (deeds) and not their sayings Jesus had issue with (Matt.23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.)

All these say that what you do determine your inheritance: Gal 5:19_21, 1 John 3:15, Rev 21:8)
---Nana on 10/18/11


Doesn't anyone get tired of this anti-semitic attitide that the Jews killed Jesus? What does scripture really say about that?

Acts 4:26-28
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Yet Jesus said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

And we see in Acts over 8,000 Jews were saved. The beginning Church was 100% Jews!
---kathr4453 on 10/18/11


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To understand this question better, ask yourself this: God has given to me a free gift of salvation, How then should I live: Am I now free to:
1. worship other gods.
2. worship idols.
3. misuse God's name.
4. Not keep the sabbath day.
5. Dishonor your father & mother.
6. murder.
7. commit adultery.
8. steal.
9. lie.
10. covet
And what does it say about me when i choose not to obey these ten commandments?
---Francis on 10/18/11


Paul, Jesus was not teaching that your righteousness must exceed the Pharisee in order to enter heaven. First of all, the Pharisees represented pride and full of self-righteousness in themselves. Jesus was just being sarcastic. ---christan on 10/18/11

Jesus was not being sarcastic, for sarcasm would be sin.

Jesus was telling those under the LAW, that there is a righteousness to come that will exceed teh Law, that is teh Righteousness of Christ.

Paul explains this in Romans 10, and was certainly not sarcastic in explaining it, nor sarcastic when he said he would even give up his own salvation SO THAT his brethren after the flesh would understand this truth.
---kathr4453 on 10/18/11


Rocky...I can see that you are not fully aware or understand what Christ has done for you. If you did you would not throw out //Or that all commandments cease for you and it is OK for you to do whatever you want? Or that you can sin and repent\\?
Are you not aware thar Jesus paid the price for all sin?
I also never said i was already saved.
I received forgiveness when I put my faith in Christ, and that leads me to live a Godly life.
---JIM on 10/18/11


Paul, Jesus was not teaching that your righteousness must exceed the Pharisee in order to enter heaven. First of all, the Pharisees represented pride and full of self-righteousness in themselves. Jesus was just being sarcastic. Afterall, it was the Pharisees who wanted Jesus dead and you really think Christ was teaching you that the Pharisee's righteousness was going to bring them to heaven? The Pharisees hated Christ. Do you hate Christ?

As a Christian, I know and believe that it is because of Christ's righteousness that's been imputed to me through faith in Him that's bringing me to heaven and no one else's. Outside of Christ's righteousness - God declared man's righteousness are nothing but filthy rags.
---christan on 10/18/11


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Paul, I hope that you know as a pastor should that there are two judgment seats? The one you mentioned is for believers only. It is for rewards for the good a believer has done in life. "The Judgment Seat of Christ" no unbelievers will be there, sorry. There is no condemnation to those in Christ.
Then you said,
"Mark, why would Christ teach the people that their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees or they would not enter Heaven"
That is very simple. The righteousness of the Pharisees was self-righteous, the righteousness of believers is the righteousness of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 10/18/11


"To what extend [sic] does the law have on [sic] believers [sic] eternal life?"

If by believers, you mean those under the New Covenant, then:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So, apparently, the law must be etched into one's heart!
---jerry6593 on 10/18/11


How can the physical destroy the spiritual? Where on earth do you find those passages that state that physical works destroy the spiritual works
---Mark_V. on 10/17/11

You can start here....

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Mark, why would Christ teach the people that their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees or they would not enter Heaven?

Paul
---paul on 10/17/11


Some of you say you are saved and it is a gift, that you had nothing whatsoever to do with that salvation. Then you turn around and say "but" you have to live a righteous life in order to be saved. If you have to live a righteous life, then you are not saved. Don't all of you realize that our salvation is spiritual? That our rebirth is a spiritual rebirth? How can the physical destroy the spiritual? Where on earth do you find those passages that state that physical works destroy the spiritual works done by God? What Bible are you guys reading? This is the garbish preachers are teaching in churches today and the one's who call themselves Christians believe such garbish. Is that coming from the Spirit? I don't think so.
---Mark_V. on 10/17/11


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Rocky//"But God still requires a righteous life, as stated in many scriptures."
You do not seem to understand Rocky, that we are justified (made righteous) through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
---JIM on 10/17/11
What do you mean "made righteous"? Are you saying that you become perfect and you don't violate any of God's commandments, including what Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount? Or that all commandments cease for you and it is OK for you to do whatever you want? Or that you can sin and repent?
Why did God even bother to create an Earth and bring you here if you were saved already?
---Rocky on 10/17/11


Eph 2 "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God "A gift.9 "not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 FOR we are Gods handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.+ Obedience to law not required. Gal 3:2-3 Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?..."Gal 3:10,11 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"
---chria9396 on 10/17/11


Rocky//"But God still requires a righteous life, as stated in many scriptures."

You do not seem to understand Rocky, that we are justified (made righteous) through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. We are made right with God through out Faith in Christ. The godly life we live stems from the grace poured out on us from an awesome God.
---JIM on 10/17/11


Salvation is not a gift. Salvation is a choice each person makes for himself/herself. Keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. A gift is given with the expectation of nothing in return, God expects and demands obedience. No disobedient person will be in the New Jersusalem. Rev. 22:14-15.

Read Matt 25. Why were 5 virgins left outside pounding on the door? They were in the Kingdom but lacked oil (Holy Spirit). In other words they thought they had all they needed but did not. Where is the free gift and where is grace here?
---barb on 10/17/11


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Rom_12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
2Co_10:15 having hope, when your faith is increased,
Eph_4:13 unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2Co_10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours

1Co_4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

If you believe shouldnt you be thanking God for that faith you have?
Shouldnt you understand that, that faith you have was given to you?
Thats, if you believe!
---TheSeg on 10/17/11


The law doesnt save us, but the Bible is quite clear that if we use our freedom in Christ as a license to sin that we will suffer the same fate as the wicked. God is not mocked! We WILL reap what we sow.
---CraigA on 10/17/11


I like the phrase Grace working through faith.

You know what else Grace does? It works through love. Because we love we do not steal, lie, cheat, covet, in fact we do what the law says because it is the loving thing to do.

So the law is just the minimum. What is really required is love GOD and othes which is in accordance with the law. The Spirit does ot lead against the letter. But it leads us beyond it.
---Samuel on 10/17/11


Christan, that is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but teh truth.

The wages of sin is death. In Adam ALL sinned. BUT teh wonderful truth here is that Jesus DIED and the wages of our sin He took upon Himself and died in our place, taking God's wrath upon Him.

Now he GREAT NEWS of teh Gospel is that. that those wo BELIEVE this, that Jesus died and rose again FOR YOUR SIN and those who place their faith in Jesus Christ that He died in your place shall ve saved. Romans 10:9-10.

THEN you become part of the Elect Church because you are now In Christ.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/11


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Paul says, "the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ," in Ephesians 3:24. So, the law is essential for bringing us to Jesus, but then "learn from Me," Jesus says (Matthew 11:29). Ones staying with the law may not be learning personally from Jesus Himself. If a cadillac brings you to the church, but you stay in the cadillac, you might have a hard time getting married!

"For by grace you have been saved through faith" (in Ephesians 2:8) > the gift is triune, of grace working through faith to produce salvation.
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/17/11


The law of God demanded that when a man sin against Him, there's only one payment and that is "For the wages of sin is death..." However, for the Christian, who's chosen by God before the foundation of the world in Jesus Christ, God's promise was, "...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Confirming indeed that salvation is a "gift of God" through faith in Jesus Christ. And if one wants to belief the law is going to save them, think again. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

For the Christian, Christ fulfilled the law on their behalf.
---christan on 10/17/11


If you have to work to earn a gift, then it is not really a gift, but an obligation.
---JIM on 10/17/11
Why is the error of that concept so hard to understand? Using your analogy, God gives us gift A but expects us to do B. So you say A is an obligation. Problem is we can do B and still not get A. B by itself does not earn A. Can you lead a perfect life, thereby giving yourself eternal life? No it still is a gift from God.

And there are hundreds of passages where Jesus tells us how to live and many where he tells us the importance of works and obedience. How do you dismiss them?
---Rocky on 10/17/11


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