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What Is Lord Of The Sabbath

What exactly is meant by the term "Lord of the Sabbath" in Matthew 12:8 and Luke 6:5. Does it really mean that since Christ made the law of the Sabbath, He can do with it as He wishes?

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 ---lee1538 on 10/17/11
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Warwick //I twice wrote "Can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, make a practice of sinning, willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?".

While anyone with any belief can 'claim' they are saved and live a degenerative lifestyle, I can only agree with the scripture that those who practice an immoral lifestyle really lack the truth.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Salvation is by grace alone and not of ourselves (Eph. 2:8-10), howbeit, anyone born of God's spirit is a child of God who would abhor sin and come under His discipline-Hebr. 12:6.
---lee1538 on 10/23/11


Warwick //...should a Christian "live a life of unbelief where we willingly, make a practice of sinning, willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?"

For what practical purpose, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I hope I am able to counsel you with your problem.
---lee1538 on 10/23/11


//Sabbath is fro EVERY ONE who covenants with God.
---
Then you have to say -

1) that the Jerusalem council Acts 15, that the Apostles and their associates made a mistake in not mandating the Sabbath to Gentile converts.

2) that everyone in the early church who did not teach the Sabbath did not covenant with God.

3) that all Christians who follow Christ but attend communal worship mostly on Sunday, have not covenanted with God.

Your view is really one that is exclusive among Christians of different persuasions. We call that LEGALISM.
---lee1538 on 10/23/11


I grew up as a Roman catholic, I had heard about the Ten COmmandments, It was talked about often in mass. When I was about 13 years old, i read all ten for myself. This is what it says:

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

And in the NT Jesus said he did NOT COME TO CHANGE THE LAW, he came to fulfill the prop[hecies. The choice for me was clear, KEEP ALL TEN, knowing that until everything is fulfilled not one jot would pass away from the law.
Have FAITH IN JESUS that He did not change the law
---Francis on 10/23/11


Lee, I twice wrote "Can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?"

Your part quote reduces this to:"can a Christian break God's moral law? Yes or no?"

The question is not just our ability to do so, but more importantly should a Christian "live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?"


I trust you can discern the great difference.

If you had read my posts you would know I have not ignored 1 John 1:8, 2:1 or 3:4, but have quoted them separately or together quite a few times.
---Warwick on 10/23/11




I can do anything that I want to as the new nature that the Spirit of Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) had given me makes me abhor any lifestyle or anything that displeasure Him.

And know that this will be a bone in the throat of the legalist but here it is.

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be enslaved by anything.

1Co 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up.

hope you guys appreciate the humor!
---lee1538 on 10/22/11


Warwick: Again, you misunderstand me. I never said Christians do sin.
On another point I could have accused you of deceit etc for mis-representing me. But I didn't as I accept that forums with it's word limits etc are difficult to get a message clearly across. I suggest you come to terms with this instead of false allegations. It will only damage your reputation.

Also I cant recall you ever asking me about my denomination. When did you ask this? By the way I'm NON-denominational. I visit various fellowships. Currently Assemblies of God.

Can you share with us what you do on Sabbath to keep it holy?
---Haz27 on 10/22/11


Warwick //You have not answered because you evade the point- can a Christian break God's moral law? Yes or no?

YES christians are capable of breaking moral law such as lie, cheap, dishonor parents, steal, even kill or commit adultery. In fact, we see all too often many of our ministers are found guilty of stealing, sexual affairs, etc.

1 John 1:8 says Warwick has sin in his life.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

A quote you have ignored.

1Jo 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness,...

The legalists often have this problem as they attempt to live by the law (the flesh) rather than by the power of God's spirit.
---lee1538 on 10/22/11


Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them, and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Those who left Egypt was not only hebrews but MIXED Hebrews and None hebrews

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor THY STRANGER that is within thy gates:

so Sabbath was also for the strangers

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, EVERY ONE that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,

Sabbath is fro EVERY ONE who cvenants with God
---francis on 10/22/11


Mark, are you saying that once saved we can continue in our previous sinful lives?

When Jesus said "Follow" me does that mean we can follow Him and at the same time willingly, habitually sin?
---Warwick on 10/22/11




Haz, originally you insisted that once saved it was not possible for Christians to sin. You have moved away from that nonsense now.

Now you appear to be saying that once saved we can sin all we like and it has (past tense) already been washed away.

My many long-time Christian friends would be amused by your calling me 'legalistic.' Humourous!

I call you deceitful and evasive because you are. You have many times misrepresented what people have written, including myself. That makes you deceitful.

I have twice asked what denomination you attend-no answer. That, as well as other things makes you evasive.

I believe if we knew what denomination you belong to we could comprehend why you promote strange things.
---Warwick on 10/22/11


Francis //The bible says that in the new covenant God will put his laws in his people's mind and heart.

Moral laws that reflect what we are commanded in loving our neighbor for love of neighor fullfills the law does it not? God did not put the law of Moses or civil or ceremonial laws such as it the Jewish Sabbath onto our hearts.

//He eversaid he would change his laws.

What then is a new covenant if not a new agreement? The New Covenant WAS NOT a rehash of the Old but a NEW ONE.

While God did not change any moral laws, laws that are found in almost any society, He did change the laws regarding the priesthood (Hebrews 7:12). And the Jewish sabbath was deeply rooted in the office of the priesthood.
---lee1538 on 10/22/11


Francis //There is nothing in the bible that says that the law of God was for israel only, and nothing says that the sabbath in particaulr is for israel.

Dumb statement as the Jewish Sabbath was given ONLY to Israel as a sign of the covenant He gave only to them, any Jew would tell you that. If you need the scripture, read Exodus 31:13,17.

You should be very thankful you have those on this forum that are knowledgeable of the teachings of the Bible. Hopefully you are teachable.
---lee1538 on 10/22/11


Warwick, you still make no sense. You say,
"But if saved, by grace, not by works"
doesn't that mean he is already saved? past tense. Right? not by any works right? How can there be anything but salvation? It's a done deal if he is saved. Now, if he wasn't saved, then all kinds of things would be possible. So your question makes no sense.
Now, if he is saved already, and believes he is no anymore, it does not change the fact he is saved already. He cannot change what has happened already.
Look, if a person lives their life in unbelief, they give evidence they are not saved. But even that evidence is not completely fact, because it is measured by us who are sinful not God.
---Mark_V. on 10/22/11


Warwick: Your doctrine blends law and grace in spite of scripture to the contrary.
And your constant false allegations against myself and others here of being devious etc is unhelpful in debate. Forums can be confronting, frustrating places but please dont exacerbate it with unfounded personal attacks.

From what I understand from your legalistic doctrine, even you stand condemned. And I am still curious how you observe the Sabbath. Please can you share this with us?

Even the criminal on the cross to whom Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" would be condemned under your doctrine.

I note you offered no scripture to support your legalistic view of belief.


---Haz27 on 10/22/11


The bible says that in the new covenant God will put his laws in his people's mind and heart. He eversaid he would change his laws. There is nothing in the bible that says that the law of God was for israel only, and nothing says that the sabbath in particaulr is for israel.
Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall be taken from the law, how foolish to think that an entire commandments is taken off.
Jesus christ the same yesterday, today nd forever: do not be deceived by strange doctrines.
For anyone who reads for himself, the sabbath existed before sin, during sin, and according to isaiah 66 after sin. Any doctrine that teaches otherwise is thus strange and differnt and no true christian is deceived by it.
---Francis on 10/21/11


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Mark, I wrote:

I have made it clear that we can only be saved by the grace of God through the finished work of Christ upon the cross, and not by ANY works! How can I make it any clearer?

But once saved, by faith, by grace, not by works.

Can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?

Can we?

Just to assist you I am obviously not talking about unbelief in Christ's saving power, but unbelief which (after being saved) exhibits itself in Christians believing that once saved they do not need to follow God's moral law.
---Warwick on 10/21/11


Haz, considering your deviousness I would suggest you concern yourself with your standing with God. You are in no position to judge me.

When saved by faith in Jesus we enter into the Christian life, as believers. Jesus says the law is summed up in loving God totally and loving our fellow man-not that we can forget about the law. We are also told the law is written upon our hearts and in our minds. We accept this by faith.

Therefore if we plan to live contrary to what Jesus said above, and contrary to the law now on our hearts and minds, we exhibit unbelief. Unbelief is in itself sin.

We are to live within God's will and purposes (not our own) and do you imagine we can achieve this while not following God's moral law?
---Warwick on 10/21/11


Warwick said: "can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?"

Can you show in scripture that "unbelief" is breaking the 10 commandments (moral law)?

Also, your doctrine condemns you as you might be "willingly,continually" observing the wrong day as Sabbath. And I'm curious how are you observing the Sabbath? Can you tell us what you do on the Sabbath?
---Haz27 on 10/21/11


Warwick....let me ask you a question.
Which of those sins did Christ not die for?

Are you not aware that when you put your faith in Christ you are forgiven of all sin.The writer of Hebrews states in chapter 10 that Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sin.
So Warwick, you being a believer. What sin can you commit that Jesus has not paid the price for?
---JIM on 10/21/11


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Lee you did not answer the question but evaded it.

The question was "Lee again I ask: can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?"

You have not answered because you evade the point- can a Christian break God's moral law? Yes or no?

BTW circumcision, and dietary laws are not part of the moral law.

Can we dishonour our parents, disrespect God, steal, murder, commit adultery etc and still claim to be Christian?

---Warwick on 10/21/11


Francis asked -

1. Are you suggesting that what would be a sin for a Jew would be acceptable behavior for a Christian?

It was a sin for a Jew not to become circumcised, eat unclean foods, not to attend Temple worship, or violate Mosaic law or any of the 613 laws found in the Old Testament. The Christian is not bound by laws that are strictly Jewish in nature. The Jerusalem council made that abundantly clear. Acts 15.

Disagree with me if you like, however, you have provided nothing so far that would convict me that I am wrong.
---lee1538 on 10/21/11


Francis asked -

2. Does God define sin differently before and after 5he death of Jesus? SO what is a sin before Jesus does for sins, is very acceptable to God?

As sin is a violation of anything not of Gods will (sin goes beyond violation of law), not everything commanded in the Old Covenant are also applicable to those under the New Covenant. Such is the case with the Jewish Sabbath - it is nowhere commanded of the church in the New Covenant, nor was it taught by the Apostles and their successor to Gentile believers. If it were, then we would certainly see that in the writings of the early church but we do not.

Disagree with my position if you wish, but you have offered nothing so far that would convict me that I am wrong.
---lee1538 on 10/21/11


Francis asked -

3. Do you believe God, Jesus, or the apostles changed the ten commandments or deleted some of the commandments so now we have less than 10?

The summation of the 10 commandments is love of neighbor fulfills the law (Romans 13:9-10).

Hebrews 8:13 states the Old Covenant became obsolete and if obsolete than like a revised last will & testament, would not longer be valid.


In Ex. 34:28, Dt. 4:13 we see the Old Covenant defined as the ten commandments.

The New Testament views them as the ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7,9)

Disagree and hate me if you wish, but you have not provided any good rational for me to change my viewpoint on this subject.
---lee1538 on 10/21/11


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The reason which Jesus had to die, is because of SIN.

How foolish to think that God would ever find the very thing that placed his son on the cross acceptable!
---Francis on 10/21/11


You are right in part. The sin of Israel. They who had become the world can be free of it.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 10/21/11


"Can a Christian who has been made a new creation in Christ continue in a lifestyle of gross sin? Again, the answer is no simply because when you become a Christian you acquire a new nature that abhors sin. It is as simple as that."
lee1538 on 10/21/11

What? To whom was it said:
1Cor.6:18 Flee fornication.
1Cor.10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
1Tim.6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
????

As old as you are and still playing make believe!!!!!
---Nana on 10/21/11


---lee1538 on 10/21/11
Let me ask a few questions this just so we understand each other:
1: Are you suggesting that what would be a sin for a jew would be acceptabel behavour for a christian?

2: Does God define sin differenly before and after 5he death of Jesus? SO that what is a sin before Jesus does for sins, is very acceptable to God?

3: Do you believe that God, Jesus, or the apostles changed the ten commandments or deleted some of the commandments so now we ahve less than 10?
---Francis on 10/21/11


The reason which Jesus had to die, is because of SIN ( 1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.) Even if the only sin that was ever commited was the breaking of the 4th commandments of the law ( the sabbath commandments) Jesus would still have to, and would still have died.
Only out of ignorance, and satanic deception would someone say that not keeping the sabbath was a sin before Jesus died, and that after Jesus died for sins, (INCLUDING THE BREAKING OF THE SABBATH) that this is not a sin anymore.

How foolish to think that God would ever find the very thing that placed his son on the cross acceptable!
---Francis on 10/21/11


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Warwick //I ask: can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?
---

I already answered this question twice! I keep wonder what your problem is.

Can a Christian who has been made a new creation in Christ continue in a lifestyle of gross sin? Again, the answer is no simply because when you become a Christian you acquire a new nature that abhors sin. It is as simple as that.

Sin in part is the breaking of law, howbeit, law that is applicable to the Christian walk. Thus I do not believe one needs to be physically circumcised, obey the Jewish Sabbath, or adhere to the Levtical dietary laws.
---lee1538 on 10/21/11


1 john 3:4 ESV Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness, sin is lawlessness.

3:4 KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

3:4 (Youngs literal translation) Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,...

One can see why Francis has a problem as he think like so many other semi-illiterate Adventists that one must reach sinlessness in order to merit eternal life.

However, we can easily see from other translations that what is stated in 3:4 is that one must not PRACTICE a life of sin. It does not say one is without sin as 1 John 1:8 tells us that we all have our sin.
---lee1538 on 10/21/11


Warwick, how much clearer can it be? I know I'm not much educated, and that you are, but you are speaking a contradiction by saying, "live a life of unbelief" "when they are believers by faith" it is not possible to live a life of unbelief when you are a believer. You keep saying, we are saved by grace, yet don't mention, "through faith." Faith is believing in the works of Christ on the cross and His resurrection. A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved. If he was not saved he could not possibly believe in Christ. How much clearer can that be Warwick? I'm not trying to be hard on you. Just explaining your error.
---Mark_V. on 10/21/11


I was watching an episode of March when Father Francis Mulcahy said " war is hell."
Hawkeye then replied " father you are wrong, war is war and hell is hell."
" How do you figue." replied Father Francis Mulcahy
" Who goes to hell father?" Asked hawkeye.
"The wicked." replied Francis Mulcahy
" Then hawkeye replied " Unlike war, there are no inocent bystanders in hell."

The truth is everyone here has a bible, and everyone here knows that 1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law. and that the wages of sin is death.

Those who choose to live in sin, cannot be suprised at their fate in the late of fire.
---Francis on 10/21/11


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If we're really honest with ourselves, we all pick and choose how we'll behave! :)
---God.is.everywhere on 10/20/11


francis, once again you are proving that you pick and choose which of God's 613 commandments you observe.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/11


Francis // Keep the Sabbath holy.

Why? Such is not commanded of Christians anywhere in the Bible nor is it even listed as a sin under the New Covenant.

Galatians 4:9-11 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Paul told that to the Galatians after they came under the influence of the Judaizers. Unfortunately you are too blind to realize that also are merely a successor of the Judaizers that preached a works salvation.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


Lee again I ask: can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?
---Warwick on 10/20/11


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Mark you are an intellegent man, but your replies on this subject aren't. I have made it clear that we can only be saved by the grace of God through the finished work of Christ upon the cross, and not by ANY works! How can I make it any clearer?

But once saved, by faith, by grace, not by works: Can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?

Maybe you will supply a straight-forward answer to this question Lee attempted to avoid.
---Warwick on 10/20/11


Warwick //I am confident if we, after being saved make "a practice of sinning" we will indeed be judged, and found wanting.

Are you one of those who beleive one can lose ones salvation due to sin?

Or is salvation wholly of God apart from our own righteousness?

How shall we live the Christian life?

In all areas of our lives we should strive to live at the highest moral level possible always realizing foremost we need love our neighbor. That fulfills the law, does it not? Romans 13:10

if one is truly a Christian born of God's Spirit you will come under the discipline of God as our Father and that can be as corrective for our behavior.

Too bad you really do not understand these issues.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


Warwick, with your believes in works you miss the work that God has done in the new believer. you see him still, all along, trying to work his way into the Kingdom. Don't you realize what the Spirit did to that new believer? If you are one you should already know. You asked a very rediculous question,
" can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief"
How can a believer live a life in unbelief? If you live a life in unbelief how can you possibly be saved? Now that is very rediculous. All believers believe by faith in the works of Christ. And they live a life by faith. Unbelievers live a life of unbelief because they have no faith. You know that, why do you ask such things?
---Mark_V. on 10/20/11


Lee, the point you and others, of necessity, evade is-how shall the saved live?

The question is: can we claim to be saved then live a life of unbelief where we willingly, "make a practice of sinning", willingly and continually breaking God's moral law?

I do not expect a straight answer from you, as I have not yet received one from anyone else.

I am confident if we, after being saved make "a practice of sinning" we will indeed be judged, and found wanting.

I think most would agree that one who "makes a practice of sinning" is not repentant, therefore very different to the Christian who sins and seeks forgiveness.

An answer would be helpful.
---Warwick on 10/20/11


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1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
---Francis on 10/20/11


\\And where does scripture teach infant baptism?\\

Acts 2:38-39, for one place.

1 Cor 10 :1-2 for another. What part of "all" omits children and infants?

Immersion in the mikveh is required for ALL converts to Judaism, even for infants adopted by Jewish parents they intend to raise as Jewish.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/11


JIM //...Even on your best day there is nothing you can do to add to what Jesus Christ has already done for you.
---

Adventism does NOT hold the view that the righteous of Christ has been imputed to the beleiver. 1 Cor. 1:30, Romans 1:17, 3:21, etc.

They believe instead that we have to acquire a very high decree of obedience to His laws in order to merit eternal life.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


Francis...Even on your best day there is nothing you can do to add to what Jesus Christ has already done for you.
---JIM on 10/20/11
JIM well since you adddressed me personally let me return the favour. Are you trying to add to what Jesus did by Honouring your parents, or worshiping one God, or not worshiping images, or not stealing, committing adultery or coveting?
Why then assume that when others obey God they are trying to add?
---Francis on 10/20/11


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And where does scripture teach infant baptism?

Calvin even had people killed for disagreeing with his heresy on infant baptism. So many people today are naive of such men. Calvin endorsed the heretical sacraments and infant baptism. Sacraments are NOT taught in the Bible.

There is NO way that such men could have been saved because they ADDED works to faith, which is no faith at all. Calvin taught that believers must persevere to the end to be saved. This is works salvation. The reformation was plagued with the remnants of Catholicism, perverting the simple plan of salvation (2nd Corinthians 11:3-4).
---kathr4453 on 10/20/11


Francis - You misquote the plain meaning of the Bible.

1Jo 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

You will always sin as long as you are in the flesh and perfection on this earth will never be a possession of yours.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin (present tense!), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

While scripture states that sin is a trespass of God's law, it is only applicable if such law is applicable to the Christian.

Where in the New Covenant does it say we must observe the Jewish Sabbath?
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


Francis...Even on your best day there is nothing you can do to add to what Jesus Christ has already done for you.
---JIM on 10/20/11


1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Understanding what sin is, and how sin afected Jesus
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,

How can any christain propose that we violate any of the laws of God?

If you understand the Gospel that Jesus does because we refused to keep his laws, how can any one advocate disobeying any of Gods laws?

Do we wish the death of Jesus afresh and put him to open shame?
---Francis on 10/20/11


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//If you do not understand this, then you do not yet understand the gospel or why Jesus died
---
Francis - The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for whomever believes.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

It does NOT say it is the power of God for salvation to whomever believes and is free of sin.

You will never be able to be perfect if you seek to observe the law including the 10 commandments.

Ga 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace.

To be justified means to be declared righteous.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


Francis, what is the Sabbath, how many Sabbath days were there, what was the purpose of the Sabbath, and what is to be done to those who don't keep the Sabbath?
---Rob on 10/20/11


Why not follow Jesus instead since one is never justified by obedience to the law, nor can the law ever make you ighteous.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Although we are not justified by Keep thelaw, we ARE NOT TO LIVE N SIN.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

If you do not understand this, then you do not yet understand thegospel or why Jesus died
---Francis on 10/20/11


Francis //Rather than agrue against the commandments of God, why not obey them?

Why not follow Jesus instead since one is never justified by obedience to the law, nor can the law ever make you righteous.

Adventists have this theory in progressive sanctification that is based not upon the Spirit's work within the believer but upon obedience to commandments.

And yes, they also hold that you bear the mark of the beast (Satan) if you do not observe the Sabbath commandments despite the fact there is not even a hint of such commandment in the New Covenant.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


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Warwick -

While Adventists say salvation is by grace alone not by works, their Investigative Judgment theory states that in the final analysis your eternal salvation will be based upon a judgment on works - obedience to 10 commandments, NOT upon the finished works of Christ on the Cross.

The SDA IJ purposes to "vindicate the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus," by showing they were 'loyal','penitent' & 'faithful' commandment keepers.

In other words, you are saved by grace alone but you have to observe the 10 commandments to be saved.

View SDA Fundamental Beliefs #18 "salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the commandments..."

.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


Rather than agrue against the commandments of God, why not obey them?
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Now before you tell me that Jesus only gave us two, this says LOVE OF GOD, God in NT meaning THE FATHER
---Francis on 10/20/11


\\While they say one is saved by grace alone they say in order to be saved you will observe all the 10 commandments.

A soteriology of works!
---lee1538 on 10/19/11

Show your source\\

It's said that in every bit of SDA literature I've ever read, francis.

**If there is a Sabbath in heaven don't you think God will know when it is and tell us? Just like He has told us everything before.**

What has yet to be proven is if there IS a Sabbath in heaven.

Somehow, I don't think God is limited by terrestial timekeeping.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/11


While they say one is saved by grace alone they say in order to be saved you will observe all the 10 commandments.

A soteriology of works!
---lee1538 on 10/19/11

Show your source
---Francis on 10/19/11


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Lee you wrote "While they say one is saved by grace alone they say in order to be saved you will observe all the 10 commandments."

Please supply the quote/s where anyone has said this?
---Warwick on 10/19/11


Cluny, if all else fails read scripture, even a whole verse!

"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp" Revelation 21:23

If there is a Sabbath in heaven don't you think God will know when it is and tell us? Just like He has told us everything before.
---Warwick on 10/19/11


The same is accomplished by observing any day as a day dedicated to the communal worship of our Lord. Christians do it on the Lord's day = Sunday, not the olde Jewish sabbath given to Israel only as a sign of their covenant (Ex. 31:13)
---lee1538 on 10/18/11


The mis-conception is that Sunday is the Christian's SABBATH. So we have just a matter of fighting over which day is the real Sabbath Day.


However the New Day speaks of this:

This is the day that the Lord has MADE, we will rejoice and be glad in it.
---kathr4453 on 10/19/11


\\While they say one is saved by grace alone they say in order to be saved you will observe all the 10 commandments\\

Even though the Bible itself lists some 613 commandments.

Obviously, SDAs pick and choose which of God's commandments they observe. I obviously hit a nerve with jerry when I pointed out a couple that he apparently does not obey.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/11


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-Cluny on 10/19/11
Revelation 21:23 And THE CITY had NO NEED of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

that being said:
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the LIGHT OF THE MOON shall be as the light of the sun, and THE LIGHT OF THE SUN shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

And then ofcourse the tree of life gives fruit every MONTH.
SO yes we will have day and night in the new earth and as promises by God SABBATHS and NEW MOONS too
---francis on 10/19/11


//According to Rev 21:23, there is no sun or moon in the world to come, so how are you doing to know which day is the Sabbath?

Easy questions to answer! Ellen White will ring the bell.

It is truly amazing how obsessed Adventists are with the Jewish Sabbath and to what extreme they go to in defending it. Apparently they view the Sabbath commandment as the foremost commandment and must be observed for ones salvation.

While they say one is saved by grace alone they say in order to be saved you will observe all the 10 commandments.

A soteriology of works!
---lee1538 on 10/19/11


\\Isaiah 66 22-23 shows that in the New earth we have both Jesus and Sabbath, so it is no shadow.\\

According to Rev 21:23, there is no sun or moon in the world to come, so how are you doing to know which day is the Sabbath?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/11


//Isaiah 66 22-23 shows that in the New earth we have both Jesus and Sabbath, so it is no shadow.

That scripture really does not work as it pertains to the old covenant dispensation. Anyone who has read the previous verses in Isaiah would see that it speaks of a renewed Levitical priesthood, a priesthood that pointed forward as a shadow to Christ.

Sorry Francis but you will never learn much about the Bible and what it teaches until you find yourself a church that truly teaches God word.
---lee1538 on 10/18/11


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//The sabbath was given before sin as a sign that God created, and shodows started after sin as symbols of the plan of redeemption.

The sabbath as well as the Mosaic sacrificial system is of the Old Covenant law, however, the New testament clearly states that:

Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Again it is clear Francis really does not know the teachings of the Bible but depends upon the teachings of Ellen White, a woman who got kicked out of a church that preached the gospel.
---lee1538 on 10/18/11


The Sabbath in the OT law was a shadow of the person of Jesus Christ.
---christan on 10/17/11
NOT BIBLICAL.
Isaiah 66 22-23 shows that in the New earth we have both Jesus and Sabbath, so it is no shadow.

Shodows started AFTER SIN to show the PLAN OF REDEEMPTION. The first shadow was the lamb killed to clothe Adam and Eve. As a shadow it showed that Jesus would die for our sin, and we would be clothed in His righteousness

Other shadows are shown in the earthly Sanctuary: Shew bread, passover lamb, High priest and so forth all representing part of what Jesus would do for our salvation

The sabbath was given before sin as a sign that God created, and shodows started after sin as symbols of the plan of redeemption
---Francis on 10/18/11


Reba // He wants us to give of our time & attention to Him on that day.

The same is accomplished by observing any day as a day dedicated to the communal worship of our Lord. Christians do it on the Lord's day = Sunday, not the olde Jewish sabbath given to Israel only as a sign of their covenant (Ex. 31:13)
---lee1538 on 10/18/11


To me, this means that God set side the Sabbath day for Him alone. He wants us to give of our time & attention to Him on that day. Worship Him, Read his Word, talk/fellowship with Him.
Do things that we know pleases the Lord.Make it different than the other days of the week. Focus on God.
---Reba on 10/17/11


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Well, it says, in Exodus 20:10, about the Sabbath, "you shall do no work: you . . . nor your male servant, nor your female servant" > So, this is for your own good, and the good of your "servant". So, this command to have the benefit of rest is for your servant as for yourself. So, this fits with loving your neighbor as yourself.

Oh . . . so, with Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath, this means Jesus who loves all people is Lord of the Sabbath, and He wants us to do His all-loving meaning, "not just outward copy-cat stuff". So, yes we are to do what Jesus "wishes"!!! (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/17/11


The only ones who can answer are the ones you understand, his day of rest?

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Heb_3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb_4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Act_7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

If they shall enter into my rest!
---TheSeg on 10/17/11


//And, of course, Jesus can do whatsoever He wishes with the law of the Sabbath.

Like totally fulfil or even annul the Sabbath commandment making the Sabbath into a rest in Himself instead of a day?

Hebrews 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

And that 'another day' is not Saturday but the day we find ourselves in Christ, for all who believe have entered into His rest (4:3).
---lee1538 on 10/17/11


Amen Bill

JESUS is LORD of all. The Pharisees made all sorts of regulations about how to keep Sabbath. But JESUS pointed out they were so full of hate that on the Sabbath they plotting to kill him as okay yet considered helping others wrong.

Talk about messed up.
---Samuel on 10/17/11


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The Pharisee's created 100's of application laws so that people would "obey the Sabbath". Some laws were only x numbers of steps away from home. This is where the saying "home is where you hang your hat (cloak)" comes from because Pharisee's would hang there cloak on a pole and thus say they were only x steps from home. Anyway it got to the point that you could help an ox or animal (which is in the Law) but you could not help a person because that was considered work. The point being the Sabbath was created for God and us to take a break from ordinary work (milking, farming, job, etc). Not an excuse from doing a good work or what God told you to do.
---Scott1 on 10/17/11


Jesus Christ is the Lord of all. So, yes Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. And, of course, Jesus can do whatsoever He wishes with the law of the Sabbath. Of course, this means He always does what is right (c: because He never wishes what is wrong. He does what is right with the Sabbath, and Jesus uses every law of God for God's purposes better than what humans can do.

We imperfect people can dictate what we are able to understand, and we are not right to dictate what is our own imperfect understanding and self-justifying of ourselves over others.
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/17/11


The correct question should be "Who is the Lord of the Sabbath" and not "what".

The Sabbath in the OT law was a shadow of the person of Jesus Christ. Just like the sacrifice of the unblemished lambs. In other words, the Christian now finds his rest in Jesus who's the Lord of the Sabbath. For Christ said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. For only in Christ will the man have peace with God.

As for your comment, "He can do as He wishes" must be rooted in His Holiness. God is rational, meaning, He does not punish without a reason and neither does He show mercy without a reason. Whereas, the sinful man is irrational.
---christan on 10/17/11


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