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Finish It Here October Again

Finish It Here October 2011 (PART 2)

A continuation of the blog for posting on topics of closed blogs.

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 ---Rocky on 10/17/11
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"I AM is what is translated here [Jn 8:58] as 'Jehovah'" Marc

Really? Exactly what translation is Marc using?

The divine name does not appear at Jn 8:58.

Additionally it is trinitarian special pleading to connect Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14.

The JPS Tanakh, Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Edition says:

"God's proper name, disclosed in the next verse [15], is YHVH...

...here [vs 14] God first tells Moses its meaning, ehyeh-asher-ehyeh, probably best translated as "I will be what I will be" meaning: "My nature will become evident from my actions." JPS Tanakh, Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Edition.

NOT "I am".
---scott on 10/21/11


David8318, (1)

Thank you for your kind words. (I too have a growing file with many of your fine points included).

Not long ago my wife and I went to visit Witness friends in Coronado, CA. When we arrived we were surprised to meet a lovely married couple from Togo, West Africa. They too were Jehovah's Witnesses who had come to the US for the first time on business.

They wanted to find their spiritual brothers while here but had difficulty with the telephone operator. They decided, instead, to start knocking on doors, asking the whereabouts of the Witnesses. Can you imagine? The wife spoke no English and was dressed in beautiful African attire. Her husband spoke very broken English. Quite a sight in homogeneous Coronado...
---scott on 10/21/11


David8318, (2)

It didn't take long before they found someone who was studying with the friends that we were visiting. And of course they were warmly welcomed when they arrived moments later.

In spite of some difficulty communicating, the love that we felt toward each other was remarkable. I can still hear the sound of them singing Kingdom songs in their native language that night.

The brotherhood that we have reaches across national, racial, educational and economic borders. It is a unique bond based on Jesus' words at John 13:34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
---scott on 10/21/11


So as the scripture bare out,
A CHRISTIAN CAN SIN.

That is why Christs forgiving nature is so valuable to the believer.

Thank God for it,

Paul
---Paul on 10/20/11


Rob 10/20/11 continued 2
Christians believe Christ is God who humble Himself, took on the form of humanity, lived a perfect and sinless life, and died on the cross for our sins. Mormons do't believe this. .
Are you saying that God and Christ are one and the same? Many Christians, including Mormons, believe that they are two separate beings, witness the many times in the Bible they are presented separately, and even as Jesus talked to his Father. The Mormons believe that rest of what you wrote.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/20/11




Paul, you spoke about the lust of flesh and we need to account for the things the flesh has done.

Please consider 1Cor 10:1-14
It speaks of the same "lust" that overthrew Israel in the wilderness. And as we see in Rom 11:20,Heb 4:6 it was UNBELIEF that cut them off.

And its the sin of UNBELIEF that the world will be convicted of, John16:9

And our works are to BELIEVE on Jesus, John 6:29

And Jesus's comandment to us 1John3:23 "we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

This is what we have to give account of in the flesh. Did we believe on Jesus.

---Haz27 on 10/20/11


--Rob 10/20/11
Rocky, it is very evident you do not know the difference between the GREAT WHITE THROWN JUDGEMENT, and the BEMA SEAT JUDGEMENT.
You are right.
Also, why do you avoid responding to the other truths I shared concerning the Mormons?
I did not avoid - I responded in four parts. You saw my note ended with "continued". Apparently the moderator holds back on multi-part responses, which is unfortunate since it makes them more difficult to understand separately and because others may assume there is no response.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Matt 16:24-27 I believe vs 27 refers to the previous verses. for, at the beginning of vs 27 connects. Cross, in vs 24 is laying down our lifes *losing our life for Him
--chrisa9396 10/20/11
I agree. And verse 26 refers to choosing Christ over the world. Clearly this is all about living a righteous life that follows His word - or in other words - good works.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Thus we need good works to be saved.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Rob 10/20/11 - continued 4
I ecourage people to read the Mormon articles of faith, so they will know the truth about Mormons
I do too . And their first three Articles of Faith are:
1) We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2) We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3) We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
That sounds like Christianity to me, Rob.
All you have proven Rob is that Mormons are Christians, just the opposite of your original claim.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


part 3. Only by Christ's righteousness can we enter the kingdom. Ours is as filthy rags. Is 64:6. Read all of Rom 4. Rom 4: 2-5 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:11 Rom4:22,23,24 Rom 5:13 James 2:23
I'll repeat: Mat 6: 28-29 "Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
---chria9396 on 10/20/11




"You wrote "THAT MYSTIC ANGEL IS BORN-JESUS". Rob

No. Those words were written by Clement of Alexandria sometime before 215 C. E. And few people would say that Clement had "lost his mind."

Familiarize yourself with the history of the doctrine you "defend".

The History of Christianity (Edward Gibbon, preface):

"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
---scott on 10/20/11


Rocky...you still do not grasp it.If you are required to do something in order to receive something then it is not a gift but an obligation.
---Jim 10/20/11
No it's you that doesn't grasp it. Salvation's a gift from God because He's not required to give it. He specifies some minimum requirements for us to be eligible, but doing them is not sufficient to give us a contractual right to salvation. He can still choose to give it or not, thus it is still a gift. Very simple stuff. Nothing you've written shows that wrong. And for the third time you evade answering the simple questions I asked of you on 10/17 on ISAG. Can you not answer them?
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Ruben,

Many "fathers" refer to Christ as God, but under closer examination it's clear that most view the Father as superior. Recall that the word 'theos' (God) is scripturally applied (for various, relative reasons) to Judges, angels and men.

Additionally, some caution needs to be demonstrated by those using the 'fathers' on either side of the trinity debate because their writings were certainly not inspired and there are no extant originals available.

Novation- De Trinitate. XXX-XXXI

"One God is demonstrated, the true and eternal Father, from whom alone this energy of the Godhead is sent forth, being handed on to the Son, and again by communion of substance it is returned to the Father."
---scott on 10/20/11


1)All cults put another book either equal to or above the Bible which quiet simply proves they're a cult.
2) I also believe Mormon'r believe that salvation is not just due to grace but also good works.
---shirely 10/20/11
1)That is wrong. Actually it is most common that Christian cults use only the Bible and many other non-Christian cults have no book. Cults are recognized by the mind-control practices they use, which Mormons don't.
2) True but many other Christian sects believe the Bible's teachings about works, too. Are you seriously saying that because they interpret the Bible differently they are cults?
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Marc, Thanks for at least acknowledging that I exist!
You cite Jn.10.17,18 using 'exousia' (power) when it means freedom, privilege also "authority"
His father "authorised" His return to life after "giving" it up as a ransom!
As Eccl 9.5 says the "dead know nothing" He could not have raised Himself unless He never died!2Cor.4.14 says God raised him up! He did not raise Himself!
Either you're dead or you're conscious (alive) no one has it both ways, unless it's a metaphor! His death was real!
BTW define "immortality"!
---1st_cliff on 10/20/11


Rocky, that was only part of 3.
part 2: Matt 16:24-27 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done." I believe vs 27 refers to the previous verses. for, at the beginning of vs 27 connects. Cross, in vs 24 is laying down our lifes *losing our life for Him
---chria9396 on 10/20/11


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Irenaeus (120 - 202.C.E.?)

(Against Herisies, Book 1):

Chapter 28:8:

"For if any one should inquire the reason why the Father, who has fellowship with the Son in all things, has been declared by the Lord alone to know the hour and the day (of judgement), he will find at present no more suitable, or becoming, or safe reason than this...

...(since, indeed, the Lord is the only true Master), that we may learn through him that the Father is above all things. For 'the Father', says he, 'is greater than I'..."
---scott on 10/20/11


Rocky, it is very evident you do not know the difference between the GREAT WHITE THROWN JUDGEMENT, and the BEMA SEAT JUDGEMENT.

Also, why do you avoid responding to the other truths I shared concerning the Mormons?
---Rob on 10/20/11


----Jed 10/19/11 (continued 2)
You twist scripture, other bloggers words, and even later try to change your own previous statements You are what the Bible refers to as those with eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear
More lies, deception, and vicious personal attacks that only again prove my point and condemn yourself.
It continues the pattern you used in over 20 previous posts and proves, sadly, that you are unrepentant.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Rocky// I have made it very clear that I believe that salvation is a gift from God but that he requires love, faith, repentance, and that we lead a righteous life.\\

Rocky...you still do not grasp it.If you are required to do something in order to receive something then it is not a gift but an obligation.
I pray that the Holy spirit will make this apparant to you.
---JIM on 10/20/11


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---Rob 10/20/11
Rocky, Christians believe that we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST, AND CHRIST ALONE. Mormons don't believe this.
That is incorrect. Many Christians, lincluding Mormons, also believe:
Mat 16:27 then he shall reward every man according to his works.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/20/11


---chria9396 on 10/20/11
Rocky, "It would be helpful if more of those believing in salvation through grace only..."
In my post I made one simple request, that you explain the meaning of 4 passages that seem to require obedience or works. You did not do that.
I asked my specific question because the anti-works crowd seems to ignore those passages. And you continue to do that, ignore the Bible passages that dont agree with your interpretation. Perhaps some other anti-works people will have more courage. If there is an explanation I would really like to hear it.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Those who have turned to Christ after frying their brains on drugs & alcohol are least likely to ever succeed in this life and will always trail behind those in His church that have endeavored to become educated in His word.
---lee1538 on 10/20/11


lee1538, it's only attitudes like yours that keep those you look down upon in that state IF GOD ALLOWS IT. However, those who are in Christ OVERCOME DEMONIC ATTITUDES like yours, as Christ says to them LEARN OF ME!.

Why, because God has given them the VICTORY over you and the likes of SNOBBISH, self-righteous people like yourself who make them sit in the back of your churches as you fail to extend to them the right hand of fellowship!
---kathr4453 on 10/20/11


scott* Novatian (210-280)

"Because He [Christ] is subjected to the Father, and the Announcer of the Fathers will, He is declared to be the Angel of Great Counsel, Archangel...[Isa. 9:6], according to the Seventy". (Ex. xxiii)

Novatian

"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God.
Treatise on the Trinity 11 [A.D. 235]).
---Ruben on 10/20/11


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All cults put another book either equal to or above the Bible which quiet simply proves they're a cult.I also believe Mormon'r believe that salvation is not just due to grace but also good works.
---shirley on 10/20/11


scott* many church 'fathers' identified Christ as separate from and subordinate to the Father.

Because he(Jesus) is not God the Father, but is God the Son...

We should expect these fathers to be teaching "Key" JW doctrines, would like to see some?
---Ruben on 10/20/11


Those who have turned to Christ after frying their brains on drugs & alcohol are least likely to ever succeed in this life and will always trail behind those in His church that have endeavored to become educated in His word.
---lee1538 10/20/11 on Power of Sin Is the Law
I suggest you re-read the parable of the laborers in the vineyard at Matthew 20:1-16
I believe education gives one at advantage to a point, but to say some less educated or even that have experienced serious life deficits will always trail behind them is absolutely ridiculous.
1Co_1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Rocky, Christians believe that we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST, AND CHRIST ALONE. Mormons don't believe this.

Christians believe Christ is God who humble Himself, took on the form of humanity, lived a perfect and sinless life, and died on the cross for our sins. Mormons don't believe this.

Mormons believe the Book of Mormon, which was written by Joseph Smith, is the only accurate word of God, because they reject the Bible as being the true Word of God.

There are many things about Mormons which clearly goes against what is written in God's Word, the Mormons not Christian, but a CULT!

I ecourage people to read the Mormon articles of faith, so they will know the truth about Mormons.
---Rob on 10/20/11


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"Arianism" Marc (3)

Arius- (256-336)

Novatian (210-280)

"Because He [Christ] is subjected to the Father, and the Announcer of the Fathers will, He is declared to be the Angel of Great Counsel, Archangel...[Isa. 9:6], according to the Seventy". (Ex. xxiii)

See Bull, Defensio, etc., vol. V pp. 30. Comp. Hippol., p. 225, supra, Novatian, p. 632, infa.] 3 De subordinatione, etc.: Bull, Defensio, etc., vol. V. pp. 767, 685.

Marc's claim is simply false. Long before Arius, many church 'fathers' identified Christ as separate from and subordinate to the Father.

Incidentally, the HS was not included in the Trinity until 381.
---scott on 10/20/11


Scott, on 10/20/11, you wrote "THAT MYSTIC ANGEL IS BORN-JESUS".

This is more proof that you have lost your mind and you do what is written in Romans 1:25.

There is no where in God's Word that Christ was an Angel. But you will find this teaching in the Book of Mormon, which was written by Joseph Smith, and the Mormons believe is the Word of God, along placing above what is written in the Bible.
---Rob on 10/20/11


Rocky, "It would be helpful if more of those believing in salvation through grace only..."
Mat 6: 28-29 "...What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
Gal 3:1-6 " Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Have you experienced so much in vainif it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? So also Abraham believed God, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness."
---chria9396 on 10/20/11


Jed: I already told you that my therapist never let me blame my childhood for what I was doing. He always held me accountable for my behavior. I stopped acting out and hurting others over ten years ago, and when I was he kicked my butt. The only things I have done in the past ten years has been to hurt myself, when my medications for bipolar disorder were not properly balanced. In the past 21 months, I have been on the right meds and have been stable.

You, as a Christian, have a higher responsibility to show empathy and caring to others because you are supposed to exemplify Christ. Christ paid your fee on the cross. That is worth far more than the money I pay my therapist.
---Trish on 10/20/11


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Rocky...Why are you so adamant in your persuit to achieve salvation based on what you can do.
---JIM 10/19/11 "Is Salvation A Gift" (ISAG)
Again that is a gross distortion of what I have written. I have made it very clear that I believe that salvation is a gift from God but that he requires love, faith, repentance, and that we lead a righteous life. Like others you distort and put false words in my mouth and attack those false words. Why do so many on this site do that? And you still have not answered the simple questions I asked of you on 10/17 on ISAG. Why do you chose to ignore them and instead attack me falsely?
---Rocky on 10/20/11


How can the physical destroy the spiritual?
---Mark_V. 10/17/11 on "Is Salvation A Gift"
You seem to think these are two mutually exclusive terms, relating to too entirely separate things. Is murder a physical act or a spiritual one? Does it affect the physical or the spiritual? I think it is a physical act with profound spiritual consequences.
Rocky 10/18/11
Mark, I am still awaiting your response to a simple question you should be able to answer very quickly.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


"Arianism" Marc

Arius= (256-336 C.E or so)

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 C. E.):

"Formerly the older people [the Israelites] had and old covenant...and the Word was an angel, but the fresh and new people [the Christians] has also been given a new covenant, and the Word has appeared...and that mystic angel is born - Jesus."

The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII, Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations Of The Writings of the Fathers down to A. D. 325, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Vol. II, page 224, reprinting of August, 1980.
---scott on 10/20/11


"Arianism" Marc (2)

Arius= (256-336 C.E or so)

Hippolytus (170-236 C. E):
(Identifies Michael with the angel in Moses' day.)

"And who is Michael but the angel assigned to the people? As (God) says to Moses. I will not go with you in the way,...but my angel shall go with you".

Scholia [Study] On Daniel, Chapter VI, item, 13, from fragments, ANF, Vol. V, reprinting of December, 1981, page 190. (Compare, Exodus 14:19, 23:20, 3, 32:34, 1 Corinthians 10:4
---scott on 10/20/11


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----Jed 10/19/11
Rocky, nothing you say makes any sense.
Nothing? Obviously a gross exaggeration which again just PROVES how you distort things.
In previous posts you repeatedly made similar vague, general personal attacks to divert attention from your previous lies and to attack me in a way that is hard to defend against. I asked you to provide SPECIFICS so I could defend myself. But when you provided the specifics, I again proved you wrong and that you had lied and distorted my comments on the examples YOU picked. So naturally you revert to true form and make this post with more vague, general and viscous personal attacks. True to form.
---Rocky on 10/20/11


Haz27,
To whom was Jesus talking to in the whole of Matthew 24 and 25? (clue, Matthew 24:3).
Right, to his close disciples, as opposed to the general audience at large.
The message, watch and pray, stand watch and pray till He comes.

You only use the name of the Lord as an excuse to exonerate yourself before men, for you deny the task given to those who serve Him:
1 John 2:6 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Men should walk as told, lest the Lord place them on the left with the goats
(Matthew 25).

Later I will address your misunderstanding and misuse of James 2:10.
---Nana on 10/20/11


Haz

I'm not sure what point your tying to make, but OK?

James

I realize the flesh is death and the spirit is life, so in that regard they are separate.

But the point I was making is that the spirit will stand before God and give an account for the things the flesh has done.

That is why we are taught to walk in the Spirit to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and in that regard they are not separate at all.

And when you confess your mistake/sin and ask for cleansing you are asking for forgiveness, no matter how you slice it.

Paul
---Paul on 10/20/11


\\You keep trying to separate the flesh form the spirit. - Paul\\

So did Jesus (Matt 26:41, Mark 14:38)
Paul (Rom 7:15-25, Rom 8:5, Gal 5:16-17)
Peter (1Pet 4:6)
and John (Compare 1John 1 to 1John 3).

Why do you think Christianity was so attractive to Gnostics? Because Christianity taught the same distinction. At least for the first 150 years or so.

But the Gnostic problem was so bad, the only way to squash it was to stop emphasizing the distinction between the spirit and the flesh.

\\Do you ever ask for forgiveness when you do contrary to God? - Paul\\

When I have allowed my flesh to fulfill its desires, I confess it, ask to be cleansed, and believe it to be so.
---James_L on 10/19/11


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1st Cliff 'Your statement **Christ is Jehovah** is straight out of kindergarten!'

Actually, it is from Jn 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!

I AM is what is translated here as 'Jehovah'
---Marc on 10/19/11


1st Cliff,

Your comment makes no sense...but I'll try to extract something from it in order to address your urge to be someone.

Jesus said "I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again." (John 10:17,18)

Jesus had the power within himself to raise himself. Only God can do that, not a mere creature as the heretical Johnny-come-lately Arian Watchtower force their followers to uphold.

As history documents, Arianism, the first JW enterprise, came 300 years after the Church began. That's typical of heresies: pretending to be the original when they clearly aren't.
---Marc on 10/19/11


Rocky, nothing you say makes any sense. You twist scripture, other bloggers words, and even later try to change your own previous statements. I am not wasting any more time on your non-sense. You are what the Bible refers to as those with eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. Simply put, no amount of truth can change your mind because you have already made up your mind to live in ignorance and refuse to see or hear the truth. You can respond to this post if you wish so you can have the last word, as that is obviously more important to you than the truth. But I will not be responding to anything else you post. I pray somehow someone may be able to reach you and you will truly repent. So long.
---Jed on 10/19/11


Paul said on other finished blog: "But if you have not kept Christs commandments, not the 10 commandment but Christ commandments, your destination could be rerouted."

And what did Jesus command?
1John3:23
"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."
---Haz27 on 10/19/11


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1st cliff, Jesus (God the Son) was annointed by the Holy Spirit. That's pretty basic and elementary to understand. Unless of course you have trouble grasping the simple concept of the Trinity. In that case you should probably just grab a Bible and educate yourself.
---Jed on 10/19/11


Marc, A degree from Sydney U makes you an authority?
Your statement **Christ is Jehovah** is straight out of kindergarten!
Christ means anointed, who anointed YHVH?
BTW define "immortality" and apply it to Jesus (Christ)
He gave His "life" for me....for you He must have faked it?
---1st_cliff on 10/19/11


1) In "Pastors Use Others Message" thread You said that the Bible and the Word of God are not the same thing... I already explained in that thread how your acusation was a lie.
---Jed 10/19/11
No, you distort again. My response to your post on the other thread is below on this thread. See my post of 10/19 that starts by replaying you post "Rocky, you accused me of distortion". I proved that your new rationaalization was bogus. What you called a question was actually an affirmative statement required to make the other questions make sense. You then never responded except with the later vague, bogus attacks which I called you on.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


2)In the "Boyfriend visits fake girl" thread you said "Our whole world is a deception created by God to test us - a world full of temptations of many kinds... I showed how that was a lie using scripture (James 1:13
---Jed 10/19/11
Your post was on 10/9. On 10/10 I responded with two posts explaining the basis for my original statement and asking you three questions. You never responded to those posts or those questions. Instead you come back with your vague attacks. Then when I challenge you on it you mislead with this new post, never mentioning my two responses to your ealier post that you did not answer. Again you are being deceitful.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


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I challenge you to pick just three SPECIFIC examples so I can defend myself against your bogus attack. -Rocky on 10/19/2011

1) In "Pastors Use Others Message" thread You said that the Bible and the Word of God are not the same thing. Then when I asked if you really meant to say that the Bible is not the Word of God, you accused me of distorting. I already explained in that thread how your acusation was a lie.

2)In the "Boyfriend visits fake girl" thread you said "Our whole world is a deception created by God to test us - a world full of temptations of many kinds - that appear real and desirable but in reality mean nothing and only deceive us." I showed how that was a lie using scripture (James 1:13
---Jed on 10/19/11


James

You keep trying to separate the flesh form the spirit.

When in all actuality, the spirit will give an account for the things done in the flesh.

What do you base your current belief system off of?

I remember a post where you admitted you have switched your belief system several times and furthermore admitted your system now has flaws.

I know all about temple sacrifice and Christ sacrifice, but it has nothing to do with a Christians ability to commit sin, but rather his ability to receive forgiveness.

Do you ever ask for forgiveness when you do contrary to God?

Paul
---Paul on 10/19/11


if you state that the Bible contains the Word of God but also contains errors and mistruths as well, then you are indeed saying that the Bible is not the Word of God, because the Word of God does not include errors and mistruths. So it is actually you that are distorting.
---Jed on 10/19/11
What a stupid thing to say. Just the form and logic of your statement proves it false on the surface Furthermore, many other Christians believe the Bible does contain both, that most of the Bible is true and contains Gods word but it is not inerrant... And another obviously bogus attack by you. Unbelievable.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


Scott previously quotes Karl Rahner on John 20:28. Rahner substitutes mere assertion for formal argument, by opining that Thomas' declaration of ''The God of me'' may or may not refer to Jesus.

Who was Rahner? He was a Catholic heretic priest who denied Christ's resurrection and the Trinity.

Scott's dishonesty tries to pass off that Rahner's theology was historically orthodox and we should listen to him on all matters. The truth is Rahner sounds more like a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing Watchtower rep.

Nice try, Scott!!
---Marc on 10/19/11


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Scott SELECTIVELY misquotes from trinitarian Young's Concordance: '''God' is used of any one (professedly) mighty, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to ... magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc.''

Scott SELECTIVELY cites verses from Young, including Thomas' declaration to Jesus ''The God of me''. With the help of ellipses, cut-and-paste master Scott dishonestly implies ALL the omitted verses are not referring to God. However, in the NW[mis]T, Young's omitted 1John 5:20, Acts 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2Peter 1:1 definitely refer to God. In any case Young was a trinitarian.

Scott: shame, shame, shame!!
---Marc on 10/19/11


David isn't capable of doing original research so he cuts and pastes from a JW site which selectively quotes from Dictionnaire Lachatre. As someone who has an earned degree in philosophy and religion from Sydney University, I can say that Plato did not have a Trinity. He believed in a world of Ideas, [sometimes eternal] matter, sometimes a weak ''God'', as well as, sometimes, a demiurge. 1+1+1+1 [sometimes] equals 4, though matter and Ideas aren't even living beings.

David, a suggestion: Go and read Plato's original discussions rather than Brooklyn's spoon-fed, highly edited, pre-screened propaganda because you can't summarise Plato's world view in one and a half sentences.
---Marc on 10/19/11


David selectively quotes from quotes from Encyclopedia Britannica as his incontestable authority against Trinitarianism. Quid pro quo: What does this book say about JWs?

''Arianism, a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being.'' (EB, Arianism, Vol. I, p.509) ''The Christology of Jehovah's Witnesses, also, is a form of Arianism, they regard Arius as a forerunner of Charles Taze Russell, the founder of their movement.'' (EB, Arianism, Vol. I, p.509)

JW theology is the Johnny-come-lately imposter. Sorry, guys, but the Church from the beginning knew Christ is Jehovah.
---Marc on 10/19/11


Nana said: "The other way is also true, if the thief know when there be no guard, his PURPOSE is accomplished with ease."

If you think Mattt24:43 is referring to keeping the commandments then even YOU have let your guard down for the thief because to offend in ONE point you are guilty of ALL (James 2:10).

Either your saved by grace or your guilty of all the commandments, even if you only offend in ONE point.

"Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth" Rom 10:3
---Haz27 on 10/19/11


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Rocky, I have identified your postings of incorrect "facts" specifically as you posted them on other recent threads such as the "Tea Party Biblical","Tax Cuts Create Jobs", "Alaskan Oil" and many other threads I can't even remember. And your only support for your incorrect statements is to post additional liberal lies and propaganda that prove nothing.
--_Jed on 10/19/11
That is a lie. I challenge you to pick just three SPECIFIC examples so I can defend myself against your bogus attack. Again you intentionally make a broad, general attack so I cannot defend against it. Shame on you for trying to cover your old lies with new ones. Oh what tangled webs you weave, when you first start to deceive.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


And your only support for your incorrect statements is to post additional liberal lies and propaganda that prove nothing.
---Jed on 10/19/11
The sad thing is that you are attacking me for what you did. In post after post I have shown your lies and distortions. You don't then show me wrong, because you can't, so you ignore my specific comments and move on or post general, bogus attacks against me like you did on this post. My three earlier posts on this thread in response to your comments are good examples of how I am specific and you are posting vague, general, bogus attacks.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


Rocky, I have identified your postings of incorrect "facts" specifically as you posted them on other recent threads such as the "Tea Party Biblical","Tax Cuts Create Jobs", "Alaskan Oil" and many other threads I can't even remember. And your only support for your incorrect statements is to post additional liberal lies and propaganda that prove nothing.
---Jed on 10/19/11


term cult has two definitions... second is a relgious group that denies the trinity...
---Samuel 10/16/11

2??.
Cult will usually have a dictorial go-too leader. Followers of the leader form the cult. Who act on the direction of the leader.
Mormoms fit. As do most other denom's. To some degree.
If the priest tell you to do 40 hail Mary's....do you?
If the preacher leads you to raise your hands and dance around gibbering....do you?
If the Methodist/Baptist allow scriptural error or abomination....do you? We concede lukewarm perhaps, in their cult.

I'll follow "One" Leader/Teacher Christ. Alone if I have too.

His cult supercedes all other cemetary men, who propose they are somebody.
---Trav on 10/19/11


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Rocky, if you believe Mormons are Christians and not a CULT, you are clearly among those who are deceived.
---Rob on 10/14/11 on What Do Mormons Believe
How do you define who are Christians and why do Mormons not qualify?

Rocky on 10/14/11
Rob, I carried this forward to this thread so you can still answer it an explain why you say Mormons, who believe in Jesus and salvation through him, are not Christians.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


why not choose to believe EVERY WORD from God and follow Christ instead?
---Rhonda on 10/15/11 on What Do Mormons Believe
Mormons do believe every word from God and follow Christ. The amount of misstatement and distortion on this site is mind-boggling. I see how many feed off each others' misstatements, from site and other gossip and sources.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


Marc stated, "LDS believe the Bible AS FAR AS IT'S ACCURATELY TRANSLATED...
Rocky says, "That is not true. They believe that for the most part the Bible is translated correctly."
Now arent these statements the same in content?
---Elder on 10/15/11 on What Do Mormons Believe
And more distortion. You left off the last part of Marc's sentence "which isn't that far." which drastically changes its meaning.
Our two statements are almost opposites. The distortions and bogus attacks just keep rolling in. Or is it that many here are just not capable of critical reading and thinking?
---Rocky on 10/19/11


"A believer can fall into snares of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21), but it is not the believer sinning, it is the flesh sinning (Rom 7:14-25, 1John 3:9)"
---James_L on 10/19/11

Of dogs and cats can be said that it is their flesh sinning. Man has been given more aside flesh and soul, a mind and a spirit.(I guess some people are just hamburger patties- bodies without conscience!)

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

The other way is also true, if the thief know when there be no guard, his PURPOSE is accomplished with ease.
---Nana on 10/19/11


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---Jed 10/18/11 Pastors Use Others Messages (continued part 2)
I do, however, believe you are intentionally ignorant to facts that don't fit your liberal agenda.
There you go with ANOTHER bogus general attack. You dont identify what I said specifically or what specifically was wrong with it so I can defend my ideas. And you not only attack my ideas but attack me personally. Obviously you are still trying to obfuscate the fact that you were wrong to start with and are choosing not to address the real issues. Your intent obviously is an evil attack on me not on any attempt to get to truth of an idea.
Do you really not understand the difference?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/19/11


Paul,

I understand your point, because I used to believe it.

But there is a contextual backdrop to consider. The "sin" which is spoken of is for a believer to fall away from grace, back into the sacrifial system for temporal forgiveness.

The "sin"has nothing to do with committing a crime.

10:2 says that once we are cleansed, we no longer have consciousness of sins

10:14 says He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified

The Law never offered redemption, it offered temporal forgiveness, which is spoken of in 10:26

A believer can fall into snares of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21), but it is not the believer sinning, it is the flesh sinning (Rom 7:14-25, 1John 3:9)
---James_L on 10/19/11


Rocky, you're a real peice of work. Please, get yourself some help man.
---Jed on 10/18/11 Pastors Use Other Messages
That kind of vicious personal attack is a new low even for you. You are the one distorting what I said and writing lies, not me. The record is very clear how you have done it in post after post. You even do it while attacking me for pointing out that you are doing it. If anyone needs help it is easy to see who that would be.
---Rocky on 10/19/11


Rocky, you accused me of distortion when I asked you if you meant to say that the Bible is not the Word of God. Firstly, I can't be distorting when I'm not making a statement
---Jed on 10/19/11
Unbelievable. You attack me because I report your lies and distortions then you turn right around and do it again. Anyone reading your previous COMPLETE statement can see it was one big sarcastic attack. The latter questions assume the first question is true. Shame on you for misleading AGAIN.
So Rocky, you say the Bible is not the Word of God? What do you believe is God's Word then? The Quran? The Book of Mormon? Barack Obama's last speech?
---Jed on 10/17/11
---Rocky on 10/19/11


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James

Again, I posted the scriptures from Hebrews to show that it is possible to enter once again into sin after you have been saved by grace.

Do you not understand my point or is your desire to prove yours trump?

Paul
---paul on 10/18/11


Rocky,
What is your take on the Book of Abraham?
---scott on 10/18/11
I have none. I dont remember much about it.
---Rocky on 10/18/11


\\And James...reread the scriptures...without the doctrinal prejudice you posses\\
---paul on 10/17/11

Common misconception, but it's a contextual prejudice.

I refuse to subscribe to "one-liner" theology, taking single verses out of context, and building false doctrines based on a superficial reading of one-liners. Do you know what Heb 10:11-12 says? Or are you stuck on verse 26? How does verse 26 relate to verse 25?

I also refuse to subscribe to "duct tape" theology, trying to hold scripture together with the duct tape of vain philosophy. It usually starts "Well, I know this much..."

Context, Context, Context, Paul.
---James_L on 10/18/11


Rocky,

What is your take on the Book of Abraham?
---scott on 10/18/11


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Nana. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your response to my post suggests you believe we achieve righteousness by our efforts at keeping commandments.

If so this would contradict scripture. Consider Paul in Phil 3:9 who, said: "and be found in Him, NOT having MY OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is FROM THE LAW, but that which is through FAITH IN CHRIST, the righteousness which is FROM God by faith,"

And note how Jesus's commandment below gives us this righteousness by faith.
1John3:23 "And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

Righteousness is through faith in Christ, NOT from the law.




---Haz27 on 10/18/11


I have assurance of my salvation now!!!!
---KarenD on 10/15/11 on What Do Mormons Believe
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
---Rocky on 10/18/11


the term cult is that it has two definitions The second is a relgious group that denies the trinity, the supremacy of Scripture and deies salvation by Grace alone.
---Samuel 10/16/11 on What do Mormons Believe
That's not a definition of a cult. That makes Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism all cults. To them then Christianity must be a cult. Further many Christian sects do not hold the same belief about the trinity or salvation by Grace alone, if you mean people can lead unrighteous lives and be saved. You dont get to say that everyone that disagrees with you is a cult. That's not the definition of a cult. A cult is defined more by its culture than its specific beliefs.
---Rocky on 10/18/11


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