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Explain Ephesians 4:11-12

To whom do the 5 Church Offices apply to as recorded in EPHESIANS 4:11 and 12? For what time period?

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God said, "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ,"
---MarkV 10/26/11
Saying there is no condemnation to those in Christ does not say they cannot fall out of Christ. You have not provided any proof that they cannot error as you maintain. Where is your proof?
And please answer some of those other questions I asked that you are ignoring. There are quite a few built up now.
---Rocky on 10/26/11


Christan, please answer some of the question I asked you earlier on this thread:
What is your explanation for why Ephesians says he gave some prophets if you say there were none after Jesus?
Where does it say God revealed everything he wanted man to know after he finished the 66 books of the Bible?
Why are we doomed if there are new prophets of God or the Bible is not everything God wanted man to know?
How did John add his Revelations warning to the end of the Bible when the Bible did not exist for another 200 years?
Do you believe Johns commandment was violated when the KJV was translated and books deleted? Which do you use?
---Rocky on 10/26/11


Gordon, since you believe your an expert in salvation and those born of the Spirit losing their rebirth, or been saved and then been unsaved, why don't you provide the passages for your case? I bet, you cannot. It is all talk. Just like all others who try to speak religiously but never provide any passages. God said, "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ," you suggest the Word of God is wrong, because you have proof they can be condemned, show with Scripture. While you haven't got violent yet, most of those who respond get very angry. So just be patient and provide proof that those who are saved already, can become unsave? I will read your passages and answer you back. I'm waiting very patiently.
---Mark_V. on 10/26/11


CHRISTAN PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS EARLIER POST
christan 10/24/11 (1/3)
How about you showing us Scriptures that support your very claims that your Vulgate or Protestant versions are what God tells us to read and belief in?
How about your first showing where I made that statement. I never made it. Beginning with a lie and PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH is not a good way to start an honest post.
But prey tell, when you wrote "The Bible is also known as the Word of God", which specific Bible were you talking about?
Is that the only Bible that's the Word of God?
Why?
Do you believe in Biblical literalism, inerrancy, or infallibility?
Why?
---Rocky on 10/26/11


MarkV, OSAS is a lie because it teaches that no matter how much one sins, they are still "saved" until the End. A Christian most certainly can backslide into sin to such a degree that they do not repent. Therefore, at their death, they perish to Hell in their sins. HEBREWS 10:26-30 speaks to ALL CHRISTIANS, Mark. If anyone wilfully backslides into sin, and does not repent, they are trampling over the Blood of YAHUSHUA and are left with nothing but a "fearful looking for of Judgment and Fiery Indignation (HELL), which shall (also) devour the ADVERSARIES (heathen pagans)". Paul preached that he should live according to his own preaching lest he become a CASTAWAY (like a dead branch into the Fire).
---Gordon on 10/26/11




christan 10/25
In all our conversations, never have I once seen you quote a verse from the Scripture to support your accusations of others or what you have been saying.
But you know I did by this post you wrote to me on another thread:
--christan 10/23/11 (1/3) Are These Prophets True
Using Ephesians 4:11,12 as proof that there are still more prophets after the Holy Bible is lame.
That was posted only 2 days before you said I never used Scripture.
Your post again provided no support or reason, it just belittled what I wrote.
The actual subject we were discussing was why stated there were no more prophets after JESUS rather than the Bible.
Why was it lame?
---Rocky on 10/26/11


Jed 10/25/11
Everyone on this site seems to unanimously agree that you do not listen.
Wow, one person makes a statement you turn it into "everyone". You seem to have a penchant for knowing what EVERYONE thinks and then REPEATEDLY attacking me on behalf of EVERYONE.
And your refusal to accept simply fact when it is clearly proven to you
To the contrary, what my posts have proven time and again is that I present and discuss the facts while you primarily make vague statements and derogatory personal attack instead of responding with facts, just like in this post AGAIN.
Now you're repeatedly picking up statements made by others to make repeated personal attacks on me. It only proves your evil intent.
---Rocky on 10/26/11


Finally, the big question is, if the inerrancy of the Bible is so important, why didn't Jesus, or the Apostles, say something about it or do something to ensure a timely, official compilation?
---Rocky on 10/25/11
Jed, your response, quoting Revelations 22:18-19, does not address the Bible as a book, only the Book of Revelations. How could you think otherwise?
The Bible was not compiled until hundreds of years after Revelations was written. See my notes below.
In addition, some of the other books of the Bible were not even written when Revelations was.
Finally, the books that were included and excluded, changed over time. Does that make today's Protestant versions wrong? If Revelations applied to the Bible, which version?
---Rocky on 10/26/11


Jed, Still responding to my posts?
You still have not explained why you said on the "Government Controlling Churches" thread that you would never respond to my posts again, then never stopped responding, even for one day.
After you said that I believe the Book of Mormon is the inerrant Word of God, I asked you to show where I said that. You have not.
Likewise I asked you to show where I said I did not believe the 10 commandments, and you did not.
Thou shalt not bear false witness. Christians don't engage in the kind of repeated lying and deceitful behavior that you have displayed.
You should answer those questions or apologize for your lies.
---Rocky on 10/26/11


Finally, the big question is, if the inerrancy of the Bible is so important, why didnt Jesus, or the Apostles, say something about it or do something to ensure a timely, official compilation?
---Rocky on 10/25/11

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." -Rev. 22:18-19
---Jed on 10/25/11




christan 10/25
you deny that the existence of the Holy Bible to be not reliable,
I believe it is not errant, as do many other Christians and Biblical scholars.
You say it means I deny Christ, but that's a lie. You quote Mathew 10:33, but it doesn't state that so you add in your own words at the end "and that include His Word, aka the Holy Bible" but that addition is your word. So no where have you provided support for your attack on me.
I see you are joining Jed and MarcV. You cant answer the simple questions I asked about your post so you respond instead with personal attacks on me to evade that fact.
---Rocky on 10/25/11


In all our conversations, never have I once seen you quote a verse from the Scripture to support your accusations of others or what you have been saying.
christan 10/25
Show me one place I needed a quote. Mostly in my posts to you I have been asking questions, or simply pointing out what was written did not make sense or had inconsistencies. Again this is a vague general attack to divert attention from the fact you did not respond to the simple questions I asked about your posts. Very deceitful. If you want an honest discussion answer the questions I asked.
---Rocky on 10/25/11


christan 10/25/11 (Part 4/4)
Protestant versions of the Bible deleted 12 books from what was in the Catholic version. Which was inspired? The first one, the compilation done nearest to the time of Jesus and in use for over a millennium, or the alteration?
Finally, the big question is, if the inerrancy of the Bible is so important, why didnt Jesus, or the Apostles, say something about it or do something to ensure a timely, official compilation?
---Rocky on 10/25/11


christan 10/25/11 (Part 2 of 3)
What Bible I use is irrelevant for discussion because all the versions speak of the same Truth, about Jesus Christ.
I generally agree. But the original discussion was about the completeness and inerrancy of the Bible having everything we needed such that no further prophets were necessary.
Was there no truth in the 12 books the Protestants dropped from the Bible? If not, why were they included in the first place and kept there for over a 1,000 years?
Do you believe the Bible is inerrant?
Which version of the Bible do you use?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/25/11


Rocky, one conclusion, there's one big glaring red flag and that is you deny that the existence of the Holy Bible to be not reliable, be it what version we use. Honestly, that's your problem because Christ said, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33 - and that include His Word, aka the Holy Bible.

In all our conversations, never have I once seen you quote a verse from the Scripture to support your accusations of others or what you have been saying. As James admonishes us, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7 - indeed it's time to submit to God and resist the devil. Amen.
---christan on 10/25/11


When the Protestants removed the 12 books in the existing Catholic Bible, which had been used for a millennium, did they violate John's warning in Revelations" Those books had been declared as only historical or non inspired before the Protestants removed them. No official sanctioned councils ever affirmed them as inspired writings. The Catholic Church doesnt defend their divinity either. I am just giving some light on the topic, I am not attempting to defend or antagonize this discussion. With a tip of my cowboy hat to you guys I will be exiting now and you may continue the mortal combat.
2Tim, Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth
---Poppa_Bear on 10/25/11


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Rocky, I know you have no interest to listen to what I belief in because you do not listen. ... Christ admonishes, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matt 7:6
---christan on 10/24/11

Rocky does listen. He defends what looks logical to him. World looks logical. But isn't.
The way I understand the swine in the verse above is someone who wallows in the filth of the world. Eating anything. The eating anything applies we don't about the other.

We all eat most anything,or have at some point until we have a choice or our body says different. All Rocky needs is some lean cusine on the menu.
---Trav on 10/25/11


Jed & Marc, despite your deceit, if anyone reads all posts they will see that:
1) I address issues and facts in great specificity and detail, more than most
2) You often distorted what I wrote and wrongly attacked me for the words you put in my mouth, as I proved.
3) I only said you distorted when it was an obvious, exaggerated distortion usually an evasive attempt to hide that you were wrong, not some doctrinal disagreement or simple error
4) You try to deflect attention from you error or lack of response by making personal attacks unrelated to the issue.
I encourage everyone to look at the record and see I spoke the truth while you, many times, did not
---Rocky on 10/25/11


christan 10/25/11 (Part 3 of 3)
As for 2 Timothy 3:16,17, it says what it says and if you think otherwise than that's your problem.
No. I definitely agree it says what it says. The question though was, does it say what you say it does? Your response is totally non-responsive on that.
You still have not answered some of the original questions:
What is your explanation for why Ephesians says he gave some prophets if you say there were none after Jesus?
How would researching the meaning of "prophet", as you suggested, change that Ephesians says he gave more?
How did John add his warning to the end of a Bible that did not exist for another 200 years?
---Rocky on 10/25/11


christan 10/25/11 (Part1 of 3)
Rocky, there's are nothing less than 25 versions of the Holy Bible that's available out there and I assure you they all have 66 books in them.
The complete Christian Bibles range from the 66 books of the Protestant canon to the 81 books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Bible. The Bible used by the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches include 12 books not in Protestant Bibles.
When the Protestants removed the 12 books in the existing Catholic Bible, which had been used for a millennium, did they violate John's warning in Revelations which, in an earlier post you applied to the entire Bible?
If not, why not?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/25/11


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christan 10/25/11 (Part 1/4)
At that point of John's life, I'm very sure that the NT was being compiled.
No it was not, not even close. Read any history of the NT. At the point John wrote Revelations, the "Bible" did not exist, only many separate, disparate fragments, with no central effort to make a book, just individuals independently collecting, copying, and sharing copies of manuscripts. Moreover, most scholars agree Revelations was not the last book of the Bible to be written. Further, in some early collections of the Bible, Revelations was not even the last book in the compilation.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/25/11


Rocky, this is why I do not believe and agree with you that John's last statement in the book of Revelation 22 was only pertaining to Revelation but rather from Genesis to Revelation.

At that point of John's life, I'm very sure that the OT was already complete and the NT was being compiled. If it wasn't, then Christ and the apostles wouldn't have quoted verses from the OT, let alone Paul's teachings of what the OT was all about and even quoting Christ's teachings from the four Gospels.

More importantly, I believe the Holy Spirit was speaking through God's chosen prophets and apostles. It is the Holy Spirit that was compiling the Holy Bible through the chosen prophets and apostles. Hence the witness in 2 Timothy 3:16,17.
---christan on 10/25/11


Rocky, there's are nothing less than 25 versions of the Holy Bible that's available out there and I assure you they all have 66 books in them. What Bible I use is irrelevant for discussion because all the versions speak of the same Truth, about Jesus Christ.

As for 2 Timothy 3:16,17, it says what it says and if you think otherwise than that's your problem. I have nothing to prove or find the need to convince you about what I believe in.

If you think you can get to know Christ outside of His Holy Bible, then go ahead and believe that. Your soul is your own responsibility but make no mistake, God owns it and He does as He pleases with us.
---christan on 10/25/11


Rocky, I once told another here it was useless to try to reason with Athiest. I should have taken my own advice when answering you. There is enough people alreadying answering you whom you say distort things. You do not need for me to correct you, because everything anyone says is distortions, and you know this by studying only the parts that are truth in the Bible and the whole truth of Mormonism and Hinduism.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/11


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Rocky, I know you have no interest to listen to what I belief in because you do not listen.
--christan 10/24/11
Because I disagree isn't evidence I don't listen. -Rocky 10/24/11

Everyone on this site seems to unanimously agree that you do not listen. And your refusal to accept simply fact when it is clearly proven to you is evidence that you don't listen to anyone. If anyone wants evidence, all they need to do is look back through ever single debate you have been involved in on this site.
---Jed on 10/25/11


Rocky, I know you have no interest to listen to what I belief in because you do not listen.
--christan 10/24/11
Because I disagree isn't evidence I don't listen. To the contrary, my questions are proof I listened and want to learn more. I would appreciate it if you answered the questions asked and responded if you think what I wrote was wrong.
For instance:
How did John add that warning to the end of the Bible when the Bible did not exist for another 200 years?
Why does it not only apply to just Revelations?
Do you believe John's commandment was violated when the NT was translated and 12 books deleted?
Which Bible version do you use?
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Christen, regarding your post of 10/24, you apparently cite Tim 3:16,17 to disprove my statement that nowhere in the Bible does it say you have to believe the Bible is inerrant in order to be a Christian or follower of Jesus But that scripture does not disprove it. Did you already throw in the towel or would you like to try again?
---Rocky on 10/24/11


christan,
"what I belief " should be "what I believe".
Maybe Adam and Mark V. follow suit and
use the tip.
---Nana on 10/24/11


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Rocky, I know you have no interest to listen to what I belief in because you do not listen. This back and forth between us is going nowhere and it's time for us to agree to disagree. Or better still, Christ admonishes, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6
---christan on 10/24/11


christan 10/24/11 (1/3)
How about you showing us Scriptures that support your very claims that your Vulgate or Protestant versions are what God tells us to read and belief in?
How about your first showing where I made that statement. I never made it. Beginning with a lie and PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH is not a good way to start an honest post.
But prey tell, when you wrote "The Bible is also known as the Word of God", which specific Bible were you talking about?
Is that the only Bible that's the Word of God?
Why?
Do you believe in Biblical literalism, inerrancy, or infallibility?
Why?
If literalism, is it letterism or historical-grammatical method?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


christan 10/24/11 (2/3)
While you try to contradict and cause confusion with others, you yourself are caught in that web of lies you so spew from your own heart.
Lies followed by a vicious persona attack. I am not trying to cause confusion but to defend myself from the lies and distortions of others like yourself and to find truth. I asked you some very specific questions related to Ephesians 4:11-12 on four posts on 10/22 and 10/23 on this thread. Instead of responding to a single one of the issues I raised, you now launch into your vicious personal attack. You are obviously the one trying to spread confusion not me. The web of lies obviously spew from your posts not mine, but I will not be caught in your web.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


christan 10/24/11 (3/3)
When the Christian receives the Spirit of God through regeneration, God promises him the gift of Faith... Or are you going to "challenge" this with Scriptural backing from your Vulgate or Protestant bible?
I have oft referred to the gift of the Spirit on this site, including my previous posts to you. Your lecturing me on it now is very arrogant and condescending.
Repeating your lie about the Vulgate and Protestant Bibles does not make it true, just again proves how you distort. I'm shocked at the amount of lying and distortion that occurs on this Christian site.
I responded to your 3 posts. Now please respond to the specific questions in four posts I wrote you earlier on this thread.
---Rocky on 10/24/11


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Gordon, again you bring up OSAS. You now suggest as Rocky, the Word of God is not true. There is no guarantee.
God's Word says, "So that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of "our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end," guiltless in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Cor. 1:7-9). You say it's a big lie. The Bible is wrong.
He also says,
"In Him you also, who have heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is "the guarantee" of our inheritance until we aquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory" Eph. 4:30.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11


"I challenge you to show any scripture that says otherwise." Rocky

How about you showing us Scriptures that support your very claims that your Vulgate or Protestant versions are what God tells us to read and belief in? While you try to contradict and cause confusion with others, you yourself are caught in that web of lies you so spew from your own heart.

When the Christian receives the Spirit of God through regeneration, God promises him the gift of Faith. Once he received that gift of faith, no one can deceive him. And that's because the Spirit of God resides in him and can never be lied to. Or are you going to "challenge" this with Scriptural backing from your Vulgate or Protestant bible?
---christan on 10/24/11


Mark, for the record:
When you use the term "Word of God" are you always referring to the Bible?
If not, what else?
Do you believe in Biblical literalism, inerrancy, or infallibility?
Why?
If literalism, is it letterism or historical-grammatical method?
If inerrancy or infallibility, do you believe,as many Christians, that it only applies to the original autographs of manuscripts or extends to all later translations and revisions?
Which Bible versions do you believe are the true Word of God?
Why?
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Mark,
Are you aware that:
1)There are over 5,600 Greek manuscripts containing all or part of the NT?
2)No two manuscripts are identical, except in the smallest fragments?
3)Manuscripts with NT texts differ among themselves with some estimates of 200,000 to 300,000 differences among various manuacripts?
4)The earliest fragments of a NT book date only to the mid-second century?
5)The oldest complete copy of the NT dates to the 4th century and includes two other books not in the current versions of the NT?
6)The NT was not officially canonized until 692AD.
7)If the work of compiling the NT was inspired, why did the collection take so long and change over time as books were added and deleted?
---Rocky on 10/24/11


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Gordon, they apply to whom God has called them to apply to.

An Apostle is one who moves in all 5 offices. They are very humble people and sometimes just call themselves a brother in the Lord but they are so anointed and they have a Father's heart and teach gently like Jesus did.

For what time period? For eternity. Once a person is called (from the womb or rather from the foundation of the world) it's for all eternity, now and in eternity.
---anon on 10/24/11


MarV, (part 1 of 3) Salvation does not require belief in an inerrant Bible. I challenge you to show any scripture that says otherwise.
Which Bible do you believe specifically is the Word of God? The Vulgate or a shorter Protestant version that has some books removed? How did Christians have one inerrant Bible for 1000 years then drop out 12 books and still have an inerrant Bible? Was the first or second one in error? Does God protect everyone translating of the Bible from error? The Bible has been translated into 450 languages and with over 1,000 more currently in process. Are all divinely protected from inerrancy? And yet many get revised based on comparisons with old manuscripts. Very strange.(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Mark (cont3)
You whole paragraph on Jesus and Bible inerrancy is a quite a gymnastic exercise. You waste a whole paragraph writing about If Jesus taught Bible inerrancy without ever showing that he did. Absolutely no evidence was offered, no Bible quotes. Just more deception. Again I ask you, where is the inerrancy recorded? Who or what is it you have faith in when you say you have faith that the Bible is inerrant. If by faith it must be by faith in somebody or someplace that it was said, or did you just make it up? It can't be just faith in the Bible since the Bible never itself claims it is inerrant.
---Rocky on 10/24/11


"That is so stupid because nowhere in the Bible does it say you have to believe the Bible is inerrant in order to be a Christian or follower of Jesus." Rocky

Nowhere? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16,17

Remember what the serpent said to Eve? "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die, For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4,5

Eden all over again.
---christan on 10/24/11


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Mark 10/24/11
I can see Rocky doing is dodging and weaving. People don't like the Truth so they support a lie. You want to support lies, then go for it.
That is another lie. I clearly proved you were the one making vulgar lies and gross distortions. Your only response was sarcasm because you could not prove me wrong, you had lied. You could not respond to the facts which convicted you so you chose to employ sarcasm. That choice is a confession of guilt.
You feel like you have to correct me, correct me with the Truth.
Pound your breast all you want. But I proved you lied in what you wrote.
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Gordon, I have no ego to guide me. I answer for the Truth of Scripture and that is what this conversations have been about, and all I can see Rocky doing is dodging and weaving. People don't like the Truth so they support a lie. You want to support lies, then go for it. I sure won't stop you, because I cannot. But I will answer if I see it. If you or anyone distorts the Word of God I will respond. You might not like but thats the way it is. You feel like you have to correct me, correct me with the Truth. Don't try to give me advice on how to defend the Word of God. It is inspired. It is Truth it is the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11


MarkV, Brother, When someone is stating the Truth, it's not one's ego that is to be the concern here. It's sharing the TRUTH that is the important thing. That's what this Blog-Site is all about. This is why I told you before that when one believes in a false doctrine (like OSAS), it opens the door for them to accept other falsehoods. And, their understanding of the Truth becomes marred, and they are filtering everything they view from the screen of their false doctrine. Sharing Truths here is not for a ego trip. It is for the people who WANT to learn Truth. For those who want Truth period.
---Gordon on 10/24/11


Francis, please use Scriptures properly. Quoting Acts 2:17 to justify that there will be more prophets in this present day is untrue.

That very verse in Acts 2:17 that Peter used were quoted from the OT books of Joel 2:28-32 and Isaiah 44:3. Peter was explaining to those present that the day Joel/Isaiah spoke about has arrived. It was referring to Pentecost Day at the upper room and NOTHING TO DO with prophets in the future after Pentecost as what you are suggesting. So, Joel/Isaiah's prophesy has been fulfilled.

It is really sad that so many believe that there are still prophets today when they can't even grasp the sixty-six books already written by the prophets of old in the Holy Bible that God has given. Such hypocrisy.
---christan on 10/24/11


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--Rob 10/23/11 (2/3)
Further many people consider themselves Christians without believing the Bible is inerrant. What is your right to define what a Christian is? Or what authority do you call on? Jesus never said these are three great commandments: to Love God, Love one another, and Believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.
I accept that you believe that, but for you to say someone is not a Christian because they dont believe it with you is STUPID and ARROGANT. By the way, how to you explain all of the books deleted from the Bible when Protestants re-translated the Bible? Was the old Bible wrong, the one used for about 1000 years?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/24/11


Rocky, of course what you say is never a distortion. That's why I said you were proclaiming to be the standard of Truth. You are the barometer by which all Christians should go by. Everyone distorts the Truth but you. You are the only honest Christian, and everyone else who believes the Word of God by faith are wrong, but you who questions the Word of God is right, because you never distort the Word of God, you just tell us which parts are true and which parts are not because the Holy Spirit reveals what is truth and what is not in the inspired Word of God that He Himself inspired. You speak of inerrant yet know nothing of what you are talking about. You are speaking of revise versions of the Bible and I am speaking of the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11


Rocky 2: The important issue is to have a saving Christ not to hold to an inerrant Scripture. If Jesus Christ taught biblical inerrancy, either He knew inerrancy to be true, or He knew it to be false but catered to the ignorance of the readers, or was limited and held to something that was not true but He did not know it. If Jesus knew inarrancy was false but taught otherwise, He was guilty of deception and could not have been a sinless being. And therefore was unable to provide a sinless atonement for our sins. If Jesus understanding of truth was limited to the point that He was teaching untruth, then we have no assurance that His teachings on other matters such as salvation is also not untrue.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11


--Rob 10/23/11 (1/3)
Rocky, those who are TRUE CHRISTIANS, indeed believe the BIBLE is the TRUE AND ACCURATE WORD OF GOD!!!
That is so stupid because nowhere in the Bible does it say you have to believe the Bible is inerrant in order to be a Christian or follower of Jesus. He Himself certainly never said a word about it among all the other commandments and guidance he gave. If it was to become so important, why did he not say he would leave a Book to guide us? Instead he said he would leave the Spirit.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/23/11


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--Rob 10/23/11 (1/3)
Rocky, those who are TRUE CHRISTIANS, indeed believe the BIBLE is the TRUE AND ACCURATE WORD OF GOD!!!
That is so stupid because nowhere in the Bible does it say you have to believe the Bible is inerrant in order to be a Christian or follower of Jesus. He Himself certainly never said a word about it among all the other commandments and guidance he gave. If it was to become so important, why did he not say he would leave a Book to guide us? Instead he said he would leave the Spirit.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/23/11


--Rob 10/23/11 (3/3)
The important thing is not believing the Bible is inerrant but believing in Jesus, his message and mission, loving God and one another, repenting, and seeking salvation from Jesus. Believing in the inerrancy of the Bible is nowhere on the list. To try to add it to the list is to demean Jesus and his mission, what Christianity is truly about. To try to add to His requirements only proves you aren't a true Christian and truly dont understand his message. You need to read your Bible some more, and pray for the Spirit.
---Rocky on 10/23/11


MarkV, 10/23/11 (4/4)
What's terribly wrong in your whole post is not once do you address anything I specifically said to provide the least bit of evidence for you exaggerated and distorted attacks, obviously because the facts prove you wrong. I on the other hand am specific, just like in this post I responded specifically to your bogus charges.
Further, I address the issues under discussion. You don't. Your whole post is argumentum ad hominem, a personal attack on me having nothing to do with the issues we were discussing. You cannot defend your position on the issue so you attack me personally. It's a gross fallacy in reasoning and again proves the weakness and error of your statements.
---Rocky on 10/23/11


Rocky, those who are TRUE CHRISTIANS, indeed believe the BIBLE is the TRUE AND ACCURATE WORD OF GOD!!!

Those people like yourself, who claim to be Christian, but don't believe this, are only masquerading as being Christian, 2 Corinthians 11:1-15.
---Rob on 10/23/11


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Rocky,

How dare you pretend to know anything? We have the self proclaimed
bastion of truth and light:

"If you want to know about God, about the Word of God, about something
in Scripture you do not have to support lies. Just ask and I will answer with
a kindly response."
Mark_V. on 10/23/11

Seriously...
---Nana on 10/23/11


--Christan 10/23/11 (2 of 2)
Further, for the first 1,000 years or so the only Bible was essentially the Catholic Vulgate, which includes quite a few books not in the KJV. Do you believe Johns commandment was violated when the KJV was translated and books deleted? Which do you use?
I agree the Holy Spirit is given to "guide you into all truth", that is what we were told we could get, not a book, and the reason the book does not have to be complete with everything we need to know.
---Rocky on 10/23/11


MarkV, absolutely correct. He's needed to hear that for a while. Although he does not want to know truth, but rather continue in his ignorace. I'm sure without doubt his response to your post will be "More distortion and lies" even though you are unarguably correct.
---Jed on 10/23/11


MarkV, 10/23/11 (1/4)
Rocky, you want to argue something concerning Scripture and you acknowledge you don't believe all Scripture is true
Just because I believe the Bible is not inerrant, which many other Christians also believe, does not mean I am incapable of discussing scripture. How silly of you to say that.
You of all people have no right to argue what is truth and what is not since you are not the standard of Truth.
Why me of ALL people? An obvious exaggeration for attack, not fact. And I never claimed to be the "standard of truth" for all, only to use the Holy Ghost for guidance as Jesus gave us. Are you saying you're the standard of truth?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/23/11


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MarkV, 10/23/11 (2/4)
And you cannot change what is already written.
I never tried to change what is already written, Why do you again attack me for something I never did?
Look, you don't believe the Word of God so how can you defend your points with the Word of God?
How many times are people on this site going to throw that bogus attack at me? I have CLEARLY stated MANY times that I believe the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly, which for the most part it is. To twist that into "I don't believe the word of God" is gross dishonesty and PROOF you are not interested in honest discussion.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/23/11


MarkV, 10/23/11 (3/4)
And let me say this is not a distortion.
That is a lie. In this post you've distorted a lot of things, just read above.
You distort the Truth by adding to Scripture what is not there to begin with.
That is another lie
First, you have to believe the Word of God is Truth by faith. You might not understand it all but by faith the Spirit will reveal it to you.
My faith is in Jesus not in the Bible. Jesus never said there would be a Bible let alone that it would be translated correctly. What you have is faith in what some latter people have said, not Jesus. The Spirit does guide me.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/23/11


--Christen 10/23/11 (1 of 2)
John wouldn't have admonish the Christian in the very last chapter of Revelation and warned anyone adding and taking out the words of the Holy Bible.
How did John add that wording to the end of the Bible when the Bible did not exist for another 200 years?
Over a period of about 100 years various people collected copies of documents and argued about what was and was not accurate. The order was also changed and Revelations was not always last. So men decided what was in the Bible, and only way after John.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/23/11


If he provided everything he wanted us to know in the Bible, why did he leave the Holy Ghost to guide us?
--Rocky 10/22/11
" why did he leave the Holy Ghost to guide us?" They were many reasons but they are all found in Scripture.
MarkV 10/23/11
Leading with distortion is a great way to start. You make it read as if I were really asking why he left the Holy Spirit. In context it is PLAIN that was NOT the question.
You prove from the very start your intent is to distort and be dishonest rather than search for truth.
Your post is wasted trying to answer the bogus question you attribute to me and means nothing.
---Rocky on 10/23/11


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Rocky, you want to argue something concerning Scripture and you acknowledge you don't believe all Scripture is true. You of all people have no right to argue what is truth and what is not since you are not the standard of Truth. And you cannot change what is already written. Which is Truth. Look, you don't believe the Word of God so how can you defend your points with the Word of God? And let me say this is not a distortion. You distort the Truth by adding to Scripture what is not there to begin with. Your hindu and mormanism views have blinded you even more. First, you have to believe the Word of God is Truth by faith. You might not understand it all but by faith the Spirit will reveal it to you.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/11


--chirstan 10/22/11 (Part 2 of 2)
If there are still "new" prophets and apostles from God, we who are using the Holy Bible are indeed doomed - for it is still not complete
Why are you doomed? Again He left the Holy Ghost for guidance. Don't let fear control your thinking.
Please go learn the meaning of why one is called a prophet and an apostle before you twist and turn the Word of God.
How would researching the meaning of "prophet" change that Ephesians says he gave more? Seems like you are the one twisting the Word of God when you deny what is written in Ephesians. And all without ANY scriptural support for your position.
---Rocky on 10/23/11


Christan, "Not adding" or "taking away from the Scriptures" is when someone twists the meaning of Scripture and, also, when one omits or "erases" portions and literally adds portions that were not originally there, but, declare that they were. For GOD to give a modern Prophetic Message is not an act of adding to the already written Canonical Scriptures! You are telling everyone here, that GOD is "not allowed" to give us a Prophetic Message. You are trying to tie GOD's Hands, as it were, by your pious and religious doctrine. GOD is a Free-Will Being Who can say ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, at ANYTIME that He pleases. Your disbelief will not stop GOD's true Believers, that is for certain.
---Gordon on 10/23/11


The idea that the bible is the end of prophets is not biblical.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So in the future we are gauranteed to ahve prophets:
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
---Francis on 10/23/11


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--chirstan 10/22/11 (Part 2 of 2)
If there are still "new" prophets and apostles from God, we who are using the Holy Bible are indeed doomed - for it is still not complete
Why are you doomed? And again he left the Holy Ghost for guidance. Don't let fear control your thinking.
Please go learn the meaning of why one is called a prophet and an apostle before you twist and turn the Word of God.
How would researching the meaning of "prophet" change that Ephesians says he gave more? Seems like you are the one twisting the Word of God when you deny what is written in Ephesians. And all without ANY scriptural support for your position.
---Rocky on 10/22/11


Rocky, you really remind me of the biblical account between Jesus and Pilate in John 18:37,38. As I told Gordon, so I am I telling you - go learn the meaning of what is a prophet of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ.

And if God did not reveal everything He wanted us to know according to you, then John wouldn't have admonish the Christian in the very last chapter of Revelation and warned anyone adding and taking out the words of the Holy Bible. That is justification enough that there are no more prophesies from God.

The Holy Spirit given to His elect is to "guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13
---christan on 10/23/11


Rocky, you said,
" why did he leave the Holy Ghost to guide us?"
They were many reasons but they are all found in Scripture. The offices of prophets ceased with the completion of the New Testament. ( Eph. 2:19-21) As important as they were it was not them personally, but the divine revelation they taught, as they authoritatively spoke the word of God to the church, for the building of the Chruch before the competion of the New Testament, that provided the foundation (Rom. 15:20) where Jesus Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone that build the Church. Now every believer is a stone in Christ temple, the church, Christ body of believers ( 1 Peter 2:5). There is no more new revelation. All others are impostors.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/11


--chirstan 10/22/11 (Part 1 of 2)
Using Ephesians 4:11,12 is a feeble and unconvincing attempt to try and justify that there are still "new" prophets and apostles from God.
What is your explanation for why Ephesians says he gave some prophets if you say there were none after Jesus?
It's like saying that God has not revealed everything He wanted mankind to know after He finished the 66 books of the Holy Bible.
That's right he did not reveal everything. Where does it ever say otherwise? If he provided everything he wanted us to know in the Bible, why did he leave the Holy Ghost to guide us?
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/22/11


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Since the letter was written to the Laodiceans and not the Ephesians (mistitled).

He may have been listing to them how the church structure worked, since they were a new church and Saul never visited them.
---John on 10/22/11


Using Ephesians 4:11,12 is a feeble and unconvincing attempt to try and justify that there are still "new" prophets and apostles from God. It's like saying that God has not revealed everything He wanted mankind to know after He finished the 66 books of the Holy Bible.

If there are still "new" prophets and apostles from God, we who are using the Holy Bible are indeed doomed - for it is still not complete - according to your understanding. The Bible is also known as the Word of God and we know the Word is Jesus Christ - the very person who saved His people from their sins.

Please go learn the meaning of why one is called a prophet and an apostle before you twist and turn the Word of God.
---christan on 10/22/11


Paul wasn't trying to make what he writes in Ephesians 411 & 12 as particular group of offices that are filled by congregation election, but rather these are offices that are offices that are principles among Christians. that God has given for the purpose of "building up body of Christ". He was pointing out that one office was not superior to another. Read the complete chapter and maybe you will see the total picture of why Paul stated this thought.
---wivv on 10/22/11


Scott on10/22/1
//Apostles - those that had a first hand account with Jesus on earth//
When did the apostle paul have a first hand account with Jesus on earth?
---michael_e on 10/22/11


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Apostles - those that had a first hand account with Jesus on earth
prophets - those with the spiritual gift of prophecy to bring out healing, warning, encouragement
evangelists - all christians
pastors - those in leadership of local churchs
teachers - those that can take a characteristic of God and explain, show how to, encourage, fellow believers.
All of this are to do help believers mature (v14). Only the job of apostle has ended due to lifetime ending.
---Scott1 on 10/22/11


I don't know.
---God.is.everywhere on 10/22/11


"To whom do the 5 Church Offices apply to as recorded in EPHESIANS 4:11 and 12?" The body of Christ. Why? "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Verse 12
"For what time period?" "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Verse 13
---josef on 10/22/11


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