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Who Are The Elect Of God

Who or what are the 'elect of God'? 2 Timothy 2:10

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 ---lee1538 on 10/23/11
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For instance, long before Israel went down into Egypt He foretold that they would be slaves for over 400 years and what Joseph's brother did was evil, however, God intended the outcome to be in His will.Leej//
God told US TOO long before it has happened too..

Just as the brothers recognized Joseph and fell before Him and morned, Joseph FORGAVE them, AGAIN we see in Zechariah the parallel
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/11


---CraigA, the issue is not who Christ was talking to at that time.---

Ma'am that is the key to understanding scripture. You must know WHO is being addressed and WHY they are being addressed. ---CraigA on 10/27/11

Craig you hit the nail squarely.
Who is being spoken too unravels the doctrines that have no witnesses.

Most were taught,me included that Judah,jews equal all Israel. The understanding then is blind, to the Good News "Gospel" that was to the other 10 of Israel. (Matt 15:24) Christ gives specific message. Gentiles (latin)can mean non-Roman,non-Israel, also and more often means "nations", "ethnos". Of who? Context and prophecy reveals who, as you posted above.
---Trav on 10/27/11


markv, we, who seek Truth, are all on a higher journey. i think you know the scripture enough to know the things to which i allude. and, i, unlike you and some others cannot post part 1, 2, 3... for some reason. so, i have to put a lot in 125.

it seems at times by your responses to others that you are mindful of the scriptures, but at others times, you seem to post not taking a step back to consider what others are saying.

if you really wanted to know what i am referring to, take a step back and go from there. otherwise, just keep posting as you normally do.
---aka on 10/27/11


Craig, you should have looked up the word predestination before you answered. You contradict yourself.
You said:
"God has chosen us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. WHy do you think those words are there? Because we are worthy of NOTHING outside of Christ"
If God chose us before the foundation of the world, how can you turn around and say we are predestine after we place our faith in Christ Predestination means "God foreordained everything that would happen." In this case where people are going. The word "Pre" means "before in time" and "Destination" means "the place toward which one is going or sent." You contradicted yourself.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/11


Trav, you did a lot of side stepping..
Is Israel the only ones who are called sheep?
Trav, at that moment in time, the lost sheep from Israel came first. It does not even mean any of those were saved. They were only to go there first.
---Mark_V. on 10/26/11

Sidestep? I'm not an answer man. Can point to scripture known, with witnesses.
1. Only Israel were called sheep.
2. Only the Northern House of Ten Divorced...were lost Sheep.
3. Lost Sheep were not first, His own, Judah/Benjamin were first. They would have him not.
4. Christ doesn't fail. Sheep were found or none of us would have knowledge of Christ. Who do you think carried this knowledge good news? Judean/jews converts?
---Trav on 10/27/11




Here lies the doctrine of the origin of good and evil. It's the very being of God. christan///

I disagree with your statement christan. Your tongue twisting here.

The ORIGIN of Evil manifest itself in the serpent who tempted Eve way before Eve ate any fruit of thr tree.

Evil was already in the universe long before Eve sinned.

Once Adam/Eve ate, their eyes were opened to KNOW both GOOD and EVIL.

No where does it say man's mind was closed only to KNOW evil either.

Being allowed to KNOW both GOOD and EVIL is the beginning of the conscience o man to know right from wrong.

THEY immediately KNEW they had done something wrong. A depraved person would not have known or cared.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/11


---CraigA, the issue is not who Christ was talking to at that time.---

Ma'am that is the key to understanding scripture. You must know WHO is being addressed and WHY they are being addressed. If you dont properly study the word (Hermaneutics) then you will come away with some crazy interpretations.

For instance who is Paul talking to in Romans 9? gentiles? NO He's addressing the Israelites 9:27 Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

The only thing ROmans 9 confirms is that there is a remnant of Israelites that will be saved. It does not say the same for the Gentiles. Youre reading more into the scripture than what it written.
---CraigA on 10/27/11


As it reads..

For whom He did foreknow, He did ALSO predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son

The predestination isnt BEFORE you accept Christ, its AFTER you do. God has foreknowledge! We dont. Noone who rejects the Holy Spirit's calling for us to place our faith in Christ has been predestined for anything.

God has chosen us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. WHy do you think those words are there? Because we are worthy of NOTHING outside of Christ
---CraigA on 10/27/11


Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Here lies the doctrine of the origin of good and evil. It's the very being of God. His creation of evil does not make Him evil and that's because He's Holy. Solomon declared, "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." The greatest evil created was DEATH, which was to deal with sin.

Job glorified God, "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job 2:10
---christan on 10/27/11


God.is.everywhere //Lee, your god is evil indeed.
---
Some may want to say that however, scripture is very clear on these issues.

While I do not believe God is the origin of evil, He does permit it for His purpose.

For instance, long before Israel went down into Egypt He foretold that they would be slaves for over 400 years and what Joseph's brother did was evil, however, God intended the outcome to be in His will.

Even today He uses the cults to get people to study His word and I can say He has done that with the Adventists on this forum. Without the judgement and condemnation by the children of Hagar, true Christians would probably never get into the meat of His Word. Gal. 4:24f

Go figure!
---lee1538 on 10/26/11




CraigA, the issue is not who Christ was talking to at that time. The issue is election. By the same token, there were Jews whom Christ declared, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:44.

How did Christ knew they were children of the devil? Because He's God, He knew who His Father has chosen and given to Him. Classically confirming election.

It's all in God's eternal plan that He was going to choose Gentiles outside of the nation of Israel. Why? Answers are found in Romans 10 & 11, go read it.

I stand by the doctrine of election by grace, also predestination. Nothing happens outside of the purpose and will of God!
---christan on 10/26/11


The problem Christan is that you dont look at WHO Jesus is talking to. All of his parables and words were when we was addressing the Jews! The gospel was not meant for us (Gentiles) at that time. Jesus even told his disciples NOT to go to us, but to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Im sure in your reading of the old testament you came across the "house of Israel" before.

When the Jews rejected Christ, Paul (and others) were sent to US.

Those who were "given" to Christ were Jews "reserved" by God to spread the gospel. The rest are blind per scripture.

You two are both taking 'election' way out of context. Just as Kathr has said, it applies to SERVICE not SALVATION.
---CraigA on 10/26/11


CraigA, using Hebrews 2:1 to imply that God's elect can loose his salvation is rubbish! And why do I say that, because the Bible contradicts your understanding.

"And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28,29

If God has given one to Christ (which is about election), nothing and no one can snatch him/her from His hands, that's a guarantee by Christ. But if you believe you can go to Christ by your own (which is free-will), than God never gave you to Christ, right?

Gotcha!
---christan on 10/26/11


Lee, your god is evil indeed.
---God.is.everywhere on 10/26/11


god.is.everywhere - One very controversial verse in the Bible that supports the sovereignty of God is Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Is God therefore an evil god, or is He not subject to the standard we demands of us?

Does not scripture sometimes teach things we do not like?

Can we then believe God creates some for eternal salvation in Christ, while others He has predestined for dishonorable use (such as for old Judas who betrayed Christ, or poor old Pharaoh who really got dumped on when he refused to let Israel leave Egypt)?

These verses really ruin our idea of God being the big lovey-dovey in the sky!
---lee1538 on 10/26/11


Lee1538 asked who are the elect OF 2 TIMOTHY 2.

They are the ones WHO separated themselves first before God could make them a vessel of Honor.

You still don't get it do you.

Christan, with your understanding, you call all unbelievers dogs. THAT is horrible. THAT's SIN.

So, with your interpretation, you probably don't witness to DDGS..right?

God uses Sheep vs GOATS in reference to who is and is not His.

God cleansed ALL dogs cats, sheep etc, when He died and rose again. He showed this to Peter....He didn't place THOSE OTHER SHEEP on a sheet and said...Peter, Cornelius is the Other Sheep.

---kathr4453 on 10/26/11


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Christan, where you went wrong in putting that verse out was to assalt others who don't agreee with your Clavin Doctrine. To call anyone a DOG who simply does not believe in Calvinism is HORRIBLE.

Who are you to judge anyone faith in Christ.

We have been Elect and Predestined to be Holy and without blame. Nothing said about a limited number of elect.

The war over your soul is between God and Satan....Don't let satan steal yours. God made a way of ESCAPE...Jesus Christ is the WAY!
---kathr4453 on 10/26/11


Aka, I have no clue what you are talking about. There is no dogs mentioned in any answer I have seen. You must be on some high journey. Speak clear what you want to say this way you can get an answer. All Christains don't look to the past, but look forward to the crown that awaits them.
---Mark_V. on 10/26/11


Lee, good point on the vessels. Kathr gave 2 Tim. 2:20,21 but forgot to put (v.19) which says as you quoted,
"Nevertheless the solid foundation of the Lord stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who name the name of Christ depart from iniquity"
The great house spoken in (v.20) is speaking of the Church (1 Tim. 3:15) which cannot be overcome by the forces of hell (Matt. 16:18) and is made up of those who belong to Him. Seal is a symbol of owership and authenticity. Paul was giving two characteristics of those with the divine seal of authenticity. Paul constrast two kinds of utensils, those of gold and silver were for honor, those made of wood and clay for disonor.
---Mark_V. on 10/26/11


god.is.everywhere //Perhaps God created "the wicked for the day of evil" but if he did not plan to rescue them later from their wickedness and planned from the beginning to punish them forever, then he is indeed a wicked being himself.

Romans 9:18f So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

We may not like it, but scripture does teach that God is sovereign.
---lee1538 on 10/26/11


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Using Matthew 7:8, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." to justify your sin of racism is compounding your sins against God.

The dogs and swines here refers to the unbelievers and who was Christ rebuking at this point of the Gospel? The Jews and the Pharisees. Anyone who's not in God's covenant of Grace are indeed dogs and swines, including the unbelieving Jews. Dogs and swines here does not refer to a particular human race but unbelievers. And I thought you knew the Word.
---christan on 10/26/11


Perhaps God created "the wicked for the day of evil" but if he did not plan to rescue them later from their wickedness and planned from the beginning to punish them forever, then he is indeed a wicked being himself.
---God.is.everywhere on 10/26/11


IF a person separate themselves from Calvinism, or any other false doctrine, or doctrine of man, I guarantee God WILL make of you a vessel of Honor fit for the Masters use.

Separate means HOLY, Sanctified.

We are to be separate from this world, and world system.

Pharoah/Egypt represent the old system under satan.

Come out from among them and be not JUDGED with them.

Whosoever will may come out!
---kathr4453 on 10/26/11


kathyrn//21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That proves my point that while God is the Potter and we are the clay, much depends upon how malleable the clay is. God knows those who will obey him and those who will not. And He makes of those who are malleable vessels of honor while those not obedience to him, of dishonest use and all that for His glory.

A verse you cannot swallow is -
The LORD has made everything for its purpose,even the wicked for the day of trouble.

maybe the writer of proverbs was a Calvinist?
---lee1538 on 10/26/11


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You are in the past, I'm in the present and future. ---Mark_V. -Jesus tells us not to live in the future. Each day will take care of itself. nevertheless, the past is the foundation for the present and future. --even though the word ethnos is flip-flopped to whatever group, i am fortunate to be a dog. a dog that can feed from the scraps that Jesus feeds us and the scraps that fall from the careless mouths of those sitting at the table. the Lord's food at the table is eternal and so are the scraps.--what did Jesus marvel at? birthright? no. he marveled at faith. faith shone by the ones not sitting at the table. will he honor birthright, yes. spiritual birthright. --give the seat of honor to those who claim it. first last, last first.
---aka on 10/26/11


How does Romans 9 and 2 Timothy 2:20-23 agree?

Here.

Abraham obeyed God and Separated himself, AND GOD promised to curse those who curse The Nation Israel. God did just that with Pharoah!

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great, and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
---kathr34453 on 10/26/11


Here is where we reconcile romans 9 and 2 Timothy 2:20-23

Abraham SEPARATED himself, obeying God, and God made Abraham and his descendents a Great Nation, who kept His PROMISE to Curse anyone who Cursed them. Pharoah brought that curse on himself!

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great, and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
---kathr4453 on 10/26/11


--Epistles were never addressed to unbelievers nor were they for unbelievers.
--Christan

So then I guess all those warnings in the epistles about falling away from the faith ARE directed at Christians after all.

Hebrews written to Christians...gotcha.

Hebrews 2:1

We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?
---CraigA on 10/26/11


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Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

OR

2 Timothy 2:20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Sounds like the IF here depends on YOU!

Yes I know it does!
---kathr4453 on 10/26/11


Racism is a sin!
---christan on 10/25/11

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn.


Christian, when you threw out this verse on others were YOUbeing racist or were you being arrogant.

There are several references in teh OT and Gospels where Gentiles are refered to as dogs. Was Jesus being a Racist? NO!Racism had nothing to do with it.



---kathr4453 on 10/26/11


But the LORD said to Gideon, "There are still too many men. Take them down to the water, and I will sift them for you there. If
I say, 'This one shall go with you,' he shall go, but if I say, 'This one shall not go with you,' he shall not go." So Gideon took the
men down to the water. There the LORD told him, "Separate those who lap the water with their tongues from those
who kneel down to drink." Three hundred men lapped with their hands to their mouths. All the rest got down on their knees to
drink. Judges 7:4-6


Were these CHOSEN for salvation, or SERVICE?
---kathr4453 on 10/26/11


Trav, you did a lot of side stepping but did not answer my questions. Is Israel the only one that will be saved? Is Israel the only ones who are called sheep? Meaning, there is no salvation for anyone else because Christ did not die for the others? I believe a clear answer is possible.

And when Jesus told the disciples to not go the way of the Gentiles but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" That it means that Jesus was saying, the gospel is not for the Gentiles but for the lost sheep of Isael? The passage has a context Trav, at that moment in time, the lost sheep from Israel came first. It does not even mean any of those were saved. They were only to go there first.
---Mark_V. on 10/26/11


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Trav, you keep giving Old Testament passages, I'm speaking of the bride of Christ, His Church.

You are in the past, I'm in the present and future. ---Mark_V. on 10/25/11

You shouldn't let those prophets offend you so. What they prophecied came to fruition.
Your faith is great but, your fear is large also. GOD is righteous. He will do what is right. If he chooses a wife, you shouldn't be angry but happy.
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Chase some sheep for a while....learn. You can't discuss what you're afraid embrace.
---Trav on 10/25/11


"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."
Racism is a sin!
---christan on 10/25/11

Denying truth is death. Adultery is a sin.
Song of Moses is a song to Israel, look it up.
What prophets you may reject I accept.

Deut 32:8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
---Trav on 10/25/11


CraigA, you use three verses from the Epistles which goes to prove that Paul wasn't talking to "everyone" other than Christians. How do we know this? Majority of the Epistles addresses the saints (aka Christians) at the beginning of each epistle. Epistles were never addressed to unbelievers nor were they for unbelievers.

For you to use the three verses from the epistles to justify unlimited atonement does not hold water. Jesus taught that His death were only for His people or He would not have declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37, and the Father never gave "everybody" to Christ.
---christan on 10/25/11


--Believing in Jesus is believing "every word that comes from the mouth of God" and that includes Genesis to Revelation--Christan

Tthat includes the verses that destroy Limited Atonement.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven
---CraigA on 10/25/11


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Josef, thank you so much for contributing to the cause of God's elect. As Christan quoted, we are not here to convict anyone, but to show from the Word of God the Truth. Keep the answers coming so that others will know the Truth just as I and many others have, and it will set them free from the emnity they still hold against God. Even when the one's we answer get angry, the Truth of God's Word will always stand.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/11


CraigA, believing in Jesus is believing "every word that comes from the mouth of God" and that includes Genesis to Revelation, aka the Holy Bible. So, there's no need for you to be saying "sorry" if you are not convicted about election. I'm not here to convict you of that but to only show you through Scriptures that God has elected.
---christan on 10/25/11


There is really one point to be made in the study of God's Word. The point is that God saves sinners. God, the Triune Jehovah, Father, Son and Spirit, three Persons working together in sovereign wisdom, power and love to achieve the salvation of a chosen people, the Father electing, the Son fulfilling the Father's will by redeeming, the Spirit executing the purpose of Father and Son by renewing. God saves and the force of this confession may never be weakened by disrupting the unity of the work of the Trinity, or dividing the achievement of salvation between God and man and making the decisive part man's own, or by softening the sinner's inability so as to allow him to share the praise of his salvation with his Savior.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/11


Trav, you keep giving Old Testament passages, I'm speaking of the bride of Christ, His Church. You are in the past, I'm in the present and future. Are you saying the Gentiles are not His sheep? That Jesus didn't die for the Gentiles only for Israel? That salvation is only for them? Because if you are, you are far from the Truth. There is only One Church, All believers in Christ by faith makeup the Church. Whether from Israel or not. So please answer the question this way everyone understands what you are saying, not just putting Old Testament passages with no explanation.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/11


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Funny, the context of Sheep in the Holy Bible refers to God's people/elect. Isn't it His Sheep who will inherit His Kingdom? Who are His Sheep? According to John in Revelation, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Aren't these people John saw also known as Gentiles?

"But Peter said, Not so, Lord, for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 10:14,15

Racism is a sin!
---christan on 10/25/11


Trav, since we know that Jesus died for His sheep. The only other it could be is the elect Gentiles.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/11

Gentile is not Greek.
You won't find what you don't look for, most don't look. Exactly as scripture states. GOD does.
Bride is Israel. All of. So what? It was in O.Testament too. So. What would we have done then? Live. Live amongst them if possible. They had the blessings....until they worshipped/elected idiot's like GODless poser.

Every blessing she receives spills over. Do I love her too. His love for her is why a woman's daughter was healed. My knee,my life and millions of others. Will not hinder, or "shun" her or scripture pertaing too. Wanna serve at the wedding.
---Trav on 10/25/11


Jesus never called Gentiles Sheep. God never called Gentiles Sheep. They were called DOGS in scripture.
Even when God spoke to Peter in a vision concerning Cornelius, He layed out a sheet of unclean animals.

Sheep were never considered unclean.
---kathr4453 on 10/25/11


--CraigA, it's your unbelief in the doctrine of election by grace that you are stumbling all over the place.
--Christan

Im sorry but Jesus Christ never said I had to believe in such a doctrine. He simply told me to have faith in Him and repent of my sins.

Believing in the doctrine of election was not one of the criteria for inheriting eternal life.
---CraigA on 10/25/11


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"Who are the 'elect of God'?"
The elect of God are those who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:2
"a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that proclaim the praises of Him who called [them] out of darkness into His marvelous light," 1Pe 2:9
By definition they are "chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ." Recognizing and embracing "the righteousness of God without the law" "Even the righteousness of God [which is] by [the] faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: Rom. 3:21,22
---josef on 10/25/11


CraigA, it's your unbelief in the doctrine of election by grace that you are stumbling all over the place. First of all, Judas though was chosen to be an apostle does not mean he was an "elect" of God for salvation.

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12

Of the 12, only 11 were given to Christ by the Father and none were lost. As for Judas he was a reprobate. In the doctrine of election, there's also the doctrine of the reprobate. So, according to Christ, Judas is in Hades, because he was created for destruction.
---christan on 10/25/11


Pharaoh was a reprobate created for destruction.
---christan on 10/24/11


christan, and so was Calvin, so my question is, why are you all following that reprobate? Or is it that you have no choice in the matter? God molded you and created you all as vessels of dishonor too?

Just like God ELECTED Judas?

CraigA, it just may be so.

At least we know there are two elect now,

The honorable ones are elect to Glory and virtue, Godliness an Holiness.
The others like Pharoah were eleced to murder, rebellion, hatred of God's Children.

So, with that, They just can't help it, name calling, Twisting others words and God's word. Admitted reprobates.

I'm so very sorry.
---kathr4453 on 10/25/11


Trav, since we know that Jesus died for His sheep. The only other it could be is the elect Gentiles. If it does not mean the elect Gentiles, then it means no Gentiles are saved since Jesus didn't die for them because they were not sheep. Sorry but the only Israelites who will be saved, are those who place their faith and trust in Christ. There is no back door. Jesus said,
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber" (John 10:1). Old Testament passages were fulfilled in Christ Jesus. The wall came down when Jesus died on the Cross. There is only One Church, One Bride of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/11


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Judas was also an "elect" if you think elect means chosen to belief in Christ.

Christ chose the 12 disciples including Judas Iscariot and he knew he would betray him.
"You have not chosen me but I have chosen you and one of you is the devil"

Is Judas in heaven too because he was "elect"ed?
---CraigA on 10/24/11


I see that "elect" can mean "chosen", "select", "favorite". And because of being like Jesus who is our Father's favorite . . . this makes us "elect". God has chosen Jesus. So, just obeying commandments the way we can copy-cat what we think they mean . . . this is not enough. There are commands on how to be, so we are like Jesus pleasing to our Father > 1 Peter 3:4, for one.

God's word is guaranteed to do this with us > Isaiah 55:11. So, the "elect" are those of us who are corrected so we do all that God's word means, of how to be and what to do > "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/24/11


If He did, you're His elect and a vessel of honor. If not, you're the vessel of dishonor, fitted for destruction.
---christan on 10/24/11


So all anyone has to do is study the Institutes of Calvin, memorize certain scripture, say they are the elect, and walla, murderers and perverts alike can remain so, even though God said Murderers and perverts will not inherit the Kingdom of God...correct? Just because the reformers for the past 500 years say so, or have studied it...

What about what GOD SAID the last 6000 years....idiots!

Aren't these Idiot Morons calls HIRLING PROPHETS? Yep!

You all must really LIKE that Gospel....anyone can climb over! Elect??....my elbo.


---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


...other sheep (Gentiles)I have which are not of this fold,...
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11
Some believe Jesus was referring here to the "Lost" Tribes of Israel.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11

See 4 under "elect". Here's one.
Isa45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Katrabbiness. Berean their witnesses in scripture. Only one "ethnos" known as sheep.

Jhn 10: 9 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Appears you believe not, ktr & Mark added to scripture!
---Trav on 10/24/11


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While salvation is a free gift received by grace thru faith, obedience is what is wrought in our lives as we grow in Christ. Eph. 2:8-10

Those that do not find obedience in their lives or do not have a change of lifestyle, probably are not really born of His Spirit.


---lee1538 on 10/24/11


YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. CALVIN WAS NEVER BORN AGAIN!
What's good for the goose is good for the ganger.

God is not a respecter of persons. So Leej, why tell David one thing and the rest here another. Double mindedness gets one nowhere but lost credibility with others.

Funny, what Lee says is true, but if someone else says the exact same thing, they are REBELLIOUS!
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


Kathr, you said,
"Some believe Jesus was referring here to the "Lost" Tribes of Israel".
Who are this people? You?
I believe the Bible is clear Kathr, very clear. If the elect of Israel were the sheep how can it be the lost tribe? Nonesense. The sheep talked about were those Jews who were of the elect of God, who are made alive by the Spirit and come to Christ by faith. The other are not Lost tribes but Gentiles. If Jesus said which He did, "The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep" John 10:11, that means He died for the elect of Israel and the elect Gentiles, for if He did not die for the Gentiles then no Gentile would be saved.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11


CraigA, how does Proverbs 16:9 tell us that man has "free-will", how ridiculous. Why? According to your understanding, Pharaoh was acting in his very own "free-will" to rebel against God and His people, even knowing the consequence would be dire. Scripture contradicts your understanding of this perverted doctrine of yours, Proverbs 16:4 declares,

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." confirming Paul's teaching in Romans 9:22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Pharaoh was a reprobate created for destruction.
---christan on 10/24/11


--We can all scream and shout how much we love Jesus Christ, but the real question is, did Jesus Christ love you from eternity? If He did, you're His elect and a vessel of honor. If not, you're the vessel of dishonor, fitted for destruction.
---christan on 10/24/11

Wow that is just really out there. I dont know whether to be angry at such blashemy or just feel pity for you that you are so blind. That is not what Jesus Christ taught. If we love him and follow him and keep his commandments, we inherit eternal life. THAT is what Jesus taught. God is not mocked. He didnt give us freedom in Christ for us to use it to sin. The Bible warns against it. Meaning there ARE conditions that we must meet.

Youre completely backwards
---CraigA on 10/24/11


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Scripture declares the elect of God were Able, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and those who wrote the Bible. Paul simply declares "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:11,13

Romans 9, clearly declares that God has "chosen" a people for Himself unconditionally through Christ. We can all scream and shout how much we love Jesus Christ, but the real question is, did Jesus Christ love you from eternity? If He did, you're His elect and a vessel of honor. If not, you're the vessel of dishonor, fitted for destruction.
---christan on 10/24/11


The born-again Christians, which have been chosen out from the world and sanctified with the Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 10/24/11


kath4453//it depends on OBEDIENCE.... OR you actually are saying Calvin was molded into being a REPROBATE, just like Pharoah!
---
That is basically what I am saying in that it depends upon how malleable the clay is, meaning to what extent we wish to be obedience to Him.

I am surprised that you fail to realize that Calvin's Institutes have been the guiding theological light and influence for non-Catholic religions for the past 500 years. Just about everyone who has been to a seminary has studied his works.

Again, your area of disagreement primarily lies with the doctrine of Election, that God can do whatever He wishes with His Creation. Frankly I have been rather surprised to find anyone challenging that part of Scripture.
---lee1538 on 10/24/11


Around and around we go...

Man chooses his way, God directs his steps. Its right there in scripture!

Proverbs 16:9
(KJV)A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
(NIV)In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.

If God chose our WAY is would say so right there in the verse. HE directs our STEPS, not our WAY!

If we choose to go left, he uses us and plots our steps for us. If we choose to go right, he does the same.
Wake up!

God does not tempt us or lead us into sin! (James 1:13)
---CraigA on 10/24/11


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Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

ALL WHO ARE SAVED ARE THE ELECT OF GOD
---francis on 10/24/11


kathr4453 //So God formed/molded Calvin into a Murderer...correct? I Love it.

I have no problem believing God used Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and the other Reformers for His purposes despite that fact that none of them were perfect in the flesh or that their theological viewpoints are questionable.

If God can use a wicked Pharoah for His own purposes, there should be little doubt that He can use you or someone like Calvin for His glory as He wishes and not necessarily as you wish. In any case, both you and Calvin having much in common, does not prevent God's will be done in either.
---lee1538 on 10/24/11


"And other sheep (Gentiles) I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring and they will hear My voice, and they will be one flock and One Shepherd"
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11


Some believe Jesus was referring here to the "Lost" Tribes of Israel.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


John 10:16: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Let's look at Jeremiah .

Jeremiah 50:4: "In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.
5: They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
6: My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, ..... "
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


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//Keeping THIS MIND IN YOU that was also In Christ, who made Himself of No reputation, but became obedient unto death, even death of a cross....whereby THEN God will exalt you.
kathr4453//

True but much depends upon how well the clay can be molded.

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

------lee1538 on 10/24/11

No Leej, it depends on OBEDIENCE.... OR you actually are saying Calvin was molded into being a REPROBATE, just like Pharoah!
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


--And other sheep (Gentiles)--
MarkV

Im sorry but my Bible doesnt have "(Gentiles)" in it. Is that something your church teaches? Does it also teach not to ADD to the word of God? Or to replace the words used with other words so that it fits your belief?

Blindness in part is come to Israel. They are hardened. God has his "elect" amongst the Jews that will believe in Christ. If he didnt, no Gentiles would have ever heard the gospel. The rest will have their eyes opened once the fullness of the Gentiles have come in.

Talk about scripture twisting..
---CraigA on 10/24/11


So God formed/molded Calvin into a Murderer...correct? I Love it.

Murderers are God's Elect.

God's elect can sin and murder all tehy want, and guess what..they are the Elect.

No wonder teh Arninians hate the doctrine of Calvinism.

IF I were an Arninian too, which I'm not, I would too hate that doctrine.

NO accountability what so ever.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


As Only God's sheep (the Elect) hear Jesus voice. "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear His voice, and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. And when He brings out His own sheep, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know His voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them."
The sheep were there before Jesus came. Jesus said,
"And other sheep (Gentiles) I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring and they will hear My voice, and they will be one flock and One Shepherd"
---Mark_V. on 10/24/11


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--While they claim we should not read anything that smacks of Calvinism because Calvin was not perfect in all of his ways.--Leej

Thats the understatement of the century.

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Paul was a murderer of Christians BEFORE he met Christ.

Calvin was a murderer of Christians AFTER he met Christ.

This is a no-brainer. The man was not teaching from the Spirit of Truth. You KNOW it in your heart. Why defend a murder who carries the name of Jesus Christ but does the exact opposite of what Jesus taught?
---CraigA on 10/24/11


1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,

2 John 1:9
Whosoever "transgresseth" Meaning SIN...MURDER, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

OH But Calvin never taught any doctrine according to Godliness did he. Murderers are not Godly at all, and shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity.

See,
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


MarkV//no doctrine is more hated then the Election of God. It is a doctrine that gives God all the rights to His creation.

I saw that when I pointed out the verse about God being the Potter and we the clay, that these verses referred not to the nation of Israel but to man himself.

Ro 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

I can totally agree this section of the Bible has to be the most hated of all, in part, because they want to believe in a free will that overrides the will of God.

Ro 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
---lee1538 on 10/24/11


Craig A: 'all the rest are goin to hell.'

I think you are joking, from the rest of your post, but unfortunately some are not, even here.

The idea that one denomination, and only one, or even a group with similar beleifs, are the only ones saved is very dangerous. Rememver Mark 16:16 and John 3:18.

Both only talk about beleif, but Jesus never said exactly how many things must be beleived.

I take 'beleif' to be that Jesus is God's Son, dies and Ressurected, paid for our sins. The idea, started in Rome, I think, that the doctrines of one denomination are required for salvation, I think is not Biblical
---Peter on 10/24/11


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MarkV - As stated before, those that believe in the doctrine of Election, predestination, and the sovereignty of God - that He can do whatever He wishes with His creation - are quickly branded as being Calvinists.

While they claim we should not read anything that smacks of Calvinism because Calvin was not perfect in all of his ways. In fact, the system of government he was under, killed people that disagreed with them. However, what can we say about other Reformers such as Luther who was very anti-Semitic and contributed much to the Jewish Holocaust during his time and centuries later?

Perhaps because the Reformers were not perfect we should also ignore any contributions they had made and go back to Mother Church.
---lee1538 on 10/24/11


No no no God.is.everywhere!

Its the Calvinists that have it right...all the rest are goin to hell.

Wait maybe it was the Catholics? Church of God? Mormons?

I mean cuz theres no possible way that each denominations has a little bit of the truth. Heavens no! One must be totally right and the rest bound for hell for not having a perfect doctrine!

Perfect doctrine over personal relationship with Jesus Christ seems to be the new way to get into heaven.
---CraigA on 10/24/11


If many are called, and few are Chosen, some would say by that, one can resist the Call.

OR it means what JamesL has stated.

I for one don't believe there are two classs of Christians..ones who suffer, and those who don't.

I believe the CHURCH as a whole and all who make up the Church, His Body do suffer. That's teh very evidence of our salvation and fruit bearing.

Being Baptized into his Death is the Beginning of our suffering, and the Cross deals that death blow to our old man. Phil 3 is our EXAMPLE of our life as a Christin.

Paul states all else are Enemies of the Cross. Paul put down his book learning and RAN THE RACE!

NO enemy of the Cross will even dream to be a second class citizen in Heaven.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/11


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