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Salvation Taken Back

If salvation is a gift from God as we read it in Ephesians 2:8-10, then can God in His sovereignty take that gift back if we do not perform accordingly?

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 ---lee1538 on 10/26/11
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How do you go round this very Scripture, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
---christan on 10/31/11

God never HATED Esau, anymore than YOU hate your Mother and Father.

OR unless you HATE your Mother and Father....

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


AND christan, supposing God did hate Esau, does that mean He hated anyone else but Esau?

Paul never used the Jacob I loved Esau I hated in Galatians. God never even mentions Esau or Jacob in GAlatians. He uses Isaac and Ishmael.

Did God say he hated Ishmael?
---kathr4453 on 10/31/11


Not only you lie about the Scripture, but you are caught in you own lies confusing yourself.
---christan on 10/31/11


You know Christan, you really need to cool your jets about making hateful accusations to others who are in the body of Christ.

There are 7 things God Hates, and I suggest you look them up and take them very seriously.

Ishmael - Isaac
Esau - Jacob

What do we see.

God Hates our first birth. This is a "type and shaddow" of representing that only our second birth, our New Birth counts.

If you really understood salvation, you would have GOTTEN IT!
---kathr4453 on 10/31/11


"PROVING God never hated anyone. Also proving you don't have all the answers."

How do you go round this very Scripture, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:13. And for goodness sake, don't cook up the theology that Jacob and Esau was representing a nation, because they were twins of Isaac.

And let's just say you are right, "Esau God hated" was a nation but how do you deny that God created "a nation" (according to your theology) and hated them, and still have the audacity to say "PROVING God never hated anyone."

Not only you lie about the Scripture, but you are caught in you own lies confusing yourself.
---christan on 10/31/11


There is only ONE Gospel TODAY that can save your soul.

"The Gospel according to the Mystery". We've also been told what the MYSTERY is CHRIST IN YOU, the Hope of Glory.

Paul's desire was to present every man PERFECT in Christ.

Phil 3 Paul's example to follow.

James parallels/echo's what it is to be perfect in Christ, and how one presses on to this perfection.

HEBREWS 10 state these in OT could never BE MADE PERFECT by blood of bulls and goats.

The Promises to the Church in Revelation is to OVERCOMERS.

Being luke warm, blind, naked wretched etc is not an option. Rev 3.

Scriptures are written to Christians CORRECT? Are all these verses just fluff and filler?
---kathr4453 on 10/31/11


Paul ENDS Phil 3 that those who mind earthly things are enemies of the Cross. Enemies of the Cross don't just lose their rewards.

IF in fact we are Created in Christ to be HOLY and Blameless before Him, IF in fact we are predestined to be conformed to His Image as His Elect, them I believe those who don't look at the WHOLE context of these scriptures are in trouble.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The TRUE ELECT are concerned with the above verse. They don't make flimsly excuses to explain it away...or viciiously attack those who also have been given this ministry.
---kathr4453 on 10/31/11




Now we do have some on here who SCOFF at James and say God's elect don't need to be tested. In otherwords, they actually think thy don't need to be conformed to His Image.

Ephesians is our life In Christ seated above powers and Principalities. One actually need to be an overcomer to EXPERIENCE the reality of that. Romans 8 assures the Saint through suffering that brings one to overcome, that nothing can separate him from the Love "in Christ".

Paul teaches us to PRESS ON, and God will explain WHY...Phil 3

Remember sideline scoffers are not even in the race!!



---kathr4453 on 10/31/11


francis//Only when we go into UNREPENTED SIN, do WE forfiet our gift of salvation
---
In that case, salvation is not wholly of God but must depend upon what we do or do not do.
--lee1538 on 10/29/11

While there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. We are not forced to be saved.
Like any other gift salvation can be returned, or even rejected.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
---Francis on 10/30/11


If God took salvation back then it was never a gift. If performace was an issue then it's not a gift. There is only one unpardonable sin, said Jesus in Mark 3:29. "he that shall blaspheme againt the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness"....So what is that blaspheme?...It is he who does not acckowledge the truth. Everyone knows John 3:16 For God so loved the world....however John 3:18, "but he that believeth not is condemed already." So you either believe or you don't and if your don't then you are unwilling to confess Jesus is Lord and God has raised him from the dead. Romans, 10:9 and 10.
And on the matter of faith, faith comes from hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17
---Ken on 10/30/11


Individual salavation is "Given" only after "The Work" is expressed by the individual. No soul gets rewarded payment before they go to work in the vineyard, but after they work and then the payment is given. Please read verse 10 of Ephesians 2 closely: "WE ARE CREATED in Christ Jesus, ONTO GOOD WORKS, whom God who before prepared, THAT IN THEM WE SHOULD WALK." Ephesians 2:10.
---Eloy on 10/30/11


Hebrews 10..Jews are WARNED, there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful looking for of Judgement and firey indignation. These were Jews who were ALSO warned not to go back under LAW. This same warning is what Paul is statint to these Gentiles, not that they were ever under LAW to begin with, but being lured to live under law.

Hebrews 10 is to this very issue, Written to Jews concerning New Covenant vs Old Covenant.

MY question here is,

christan make horrible statements God hated these people before the foundation of the world. WRONG

Paul warns, and continues to work with these people, Hebrews too warns.

PROVING God never hated anyone.

Also proving you don't have all the answers.
---kathr4453 on 10/29/11




francis//Only when we go into UNREPENTED SIN, do WE forfiet our gift of salvation
---
In that case, salvation is not wholly of God but must depend upon what we do or do not do.

Sorry but the Christian while in the flesh will always be a sinner. Even the Apostle Paul admited "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not". Romans 7:18.

And the Apostle John clearly stated, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us?. 1 John 1:8

The righteousness of Christ is imparted to the Christian at spiritual birth. Romans 3:22 - a view rejected by Roman Catholicisim and Adventism.
---lee1538 on 10/29/11


---this idea contradicts Holy Scripture WARNING True Believers if they continue to sin (live like the sinner) AFTER they receive GODS TRUTH there will be no more sacrifice by the BIBLICAL Christ for your sins Heb 10:26-27
---Rhonda

A perfect example of taking something out of context.

The verse means if you sin (by thinking the blood of goats and bulls can save you)and reject Christs blood, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. All the chapters leading up to this verse are dedicated to this very topic. How the blood of Jesus is better than the old sacrifices.

Rejecting the blood of Jesus Christ is the ultimate sin. The very next two verses (27,28) explain that.
---CraigA on 10/29/11


How dangerous is Calvinism? VERY VERY!

We do not belong to ourselves, therefore neither does our own reason or will to rule our acts and thoughts.
We do not belong to ourselves, therefore let us not try to do what the carnal nature wants.
We do not belong to ourselves therefore as far as possible let us forget ourselves and the things that are ours.

On the other hand, we belong to God, let us, therefore, live and die to Him. Let his wisdom and will govern all our actions.
We belong to God so let us direct every part of our life to Him, the only legitimate goal. Institutes 3.7.1

Of course, much of this reasoning is also from Augustine but we must remember he also was not perfect being a Roman Catholic.
---lee1538 on 10/29/11


\\Can faith without evidence of God's sanctifying Grace be alive? Or is it simply dead faith.\\
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11

Faith wihout works is surely dead, but faith is still faith.

Faith without works does save (Rom 4:5)

But also, faith without works cannot save (James 2:4)

The REAL question is a matter of context. In Romans, the context is justification and eternal salvation. You had better be prepared without any works on that account.

In James, the context is a believer's judgment at the Bema seat, where rewards will be granted. You had better show up there with a faith full of works.
---James_L on 10/29/11


//Romans 5 says GRACE is the Gift. Both Grace and Eternal life come through Jesus Christ.

Is the gift mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 eternal salvation or grace?

Romans 6:23ESV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

8:15 KJV But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

8:15ESV But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one mans trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
---lee1538 on 10/29/11


Paul, there's no such thing as God's elect falling from grace. That's the context of Romans 8:31-39. Verse 29,30 Paul declared why,

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Here lies the eternal security of God's elect who were "predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son". Note: salvation is ALL of God, He loved, predestined, called, justify and glorify. Show me where the man has a part to do in the work of salvation.
---christan on 10/30/11


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Gal. 5:1-6)"Fallen from grace," here the Greek word for "estrangled" means "to be separated" or "to be severed" The word for "fallen" means "to lose ones grasp on something." Paul's clear meaning is that any attempt to be justified by the law is to reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Those once exposed to the gracious truth of the gospel, who then turn their backs on Christ,(Heb. 6:4-6) and seek to be justified by the law are separated from Christ and lose all prospects of God's gracious salvation. "Their desertion of Christ and the gospel only proves their faith was never genuine (Luke 8:13,14: 1 John 2:19).
---Mark_V. on 10/30/11


Gal. part 2: This Galatians were getting physically circumcised which profits God nothing. "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision aveals anything" Nothing done or not done in the flesh, even religious ceremony, makes any difference in one's relationship to God. What is external is immaterial and worthless, unless it reflects genuine internal righteousness (Rom. 2:25-29). "Faith working through love" Saving faith proves it's genuine character by works of love. The one who lives by faith is internally motivated by love for God and Christ (Matt. 22:37-40). Paul was comparing the Galatians life of faith with a race. Genuine faith last forever. It comes from God.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/11


If this were true, then, Jesus LIED when He said "All who come to me I will in NO WISE cast out."
****

Christ did not LIE HOWEVER interpretating spin creates a lie

problem with counterfeit christianity and their one-liner all-inclusive MISUSE of Holy Scripture ...salvation is NOT click your heels 3x's and poof you are "saved" salvation is a lifetime process of overcoming

Holy Scripture WARNS willful sinners have no more sacrifice for their sins Heb 10:26

FACT IS the GIFT covers all your sins till knowledge is given then True Believers understand we have an awesome responsibility to follow the examples Christ left - we don't continue to live IN SIN because the name of Christ fell from our lips
---Rhonda on 10/30/11


Some say salvation is the gift,
Some say faith is the Gift and others say Grace is the gift.

What does scripture say?

Romans 5 says GRACE is the Gift. Both Grace and Eternal life come through Jesus Christ. But again, no where does it say Faith comes through Jesus Christ.

Those who are of the same faith as Abraham are counted as the seed
Did Paul say God must have hated the Galatians? Is that what Paul told them when he explained to them WHY they fell...because God never loved you or picked you out. Why then did he say he had to LABOUR all over again to FORM CHRIST IN THEM? Because God hated them and never picked them out?

NO No a thousand times NO!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11


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When those in Galatia FELL from Grace, nowhere does it say God took back something He gave them.

Some actually believe GRACE ends with Justification. NO, GRACE not only is justification but SANCTIFICATION. Galatians is about Sanctifying GRACE, not justifying Grace.

However, can one be justified and not sanctified?

THAT's the big question. Can faith without evidence of God's sanctifying Grace be alive? Or is it simply dead faith.

If you say Faith is the gift of God FOR salvation, is it not also God's gift leading to sanctification? So is God to fault here then? Paul seemed to think it was the false teachers who came in and not God at all.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11


Paul said these Galatians BEGAN in the Spirit, SUFFERED, as we do as part of our growth and sanctification of Christ being formed in us. The process is very painful. He asked, "Have you suffered in vain"...meaning has all your suffering become of NO EFFECT?

No one begins in the Spirit unless the Spirit indwells within you,(the Spirit of GRACE.) No one is sanctified before being Justified.

Paul again said "I am afraid of you".

Paul never excused this FALLING FROM GRACE.

And from it, the GREATEST book on Grace is written.

Does it measure up to the TULIP??? NO!

Are WE accountable? It appears we are.

How dangeous are false teachers? VERY! How dangerous is Calvinism? VERY VERY!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11


"Okay, how about the words of Jesus himself?"
Mark_Eaton on 10/28/11

Luke 13:1_9.

Worth mentioning that the same cutting down is expressed in
John 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
---Nana on 10/28/11


If this were true, then, Jesus LIED when He said "All who come to me I will in NO WISE cast out." Wouldn't it be "casting out" to take away a gift that was freely given? Jesus came that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. If we can't be sure of our security, how can we experience abundant life? To feel secure in God's love doesn't give us permission to go and live any way we want to, but it frees us to go and enjoy the fulness of life through Jesus Christ.
---tommy3007 on 10/28/11


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Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Only when we go into UNREPENTED SIN, do WE forfiet our gift of salvation
---francis on 10/28/11


Christian

Actually to fall from Grace is to return to the Law to seek justification/righteousness.

And if its not dependant upon man at all then why are we taught that forgiveness will be witheld if we dont forgive.

And Is 59:2 teaches our sins seperate us from God, not height, depth, things present etc can seperate you from God, its your sin, OT or NT.

Paul
---Paul on 10/28/11


Kathr, I'm not only able to read the simple passages you gave in Hebrew 6:4-6 but even more, I'm able to understand them. You are able to read them and write them down but not able to understand them and the reason why is because you speculate. And by speculating you add to the Word of God what is not there.
First speculation is that you believe this Jews were saved already. But no where in those passages does it say those people had faith in Christ or saved. Not one. It isn't reading the passages that you have trouble with, even an athiest can read them and write them down and even underline them as you, it is understanding what those passage have to say that matters.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/11


The Father in Heaven does not "take back" HIS GIFT many will reject salvation

counterfeit christianity TEACHES BIG LIE one can continue in their lives just like when they were an unconverted sinner because they have said name of "a christ" on their lips and this saves them from themselves ...claiming there is no responsibility in their "christian life" except expressing "love"

this idea contradicts Holy Scripture WARNING True Believers if they continue to sin (live like the sinner) AFTER they receive GODS TRUTH there will be no more sacrifice by the BIBLICAL Christ for your sins Heb 10:26-27

which Christ do you serve (there are two) in this gods world 2Corin 11:4 2Corin 4:4
---Rhonda on 10/29/11


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Some speak of grace like it is dependent on what the man does. Bible speaks of grace as the love of God working in those whom He only loves. For one to "fall out of grace" is to simply say, God never loved him and wasn't working in him.

Therefore, it is indeed the love of God that converts and save the sinful man. Paul clearly teaches this in Romans 8:38,39

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

So much for propagating that God loves everyone and wants to save them.
---christan on 10/28/11


All other Gospels of Grace are accursed.

There is only ONE Gospel of GRACE.

Can one fall from GRACE? Galatians says one can.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11

Okay, how about the words of Jesus himself?

Parable of the sower. How many different places does the seed fall on? Four. In how many places did the seed grow? Three. And in how many places did the seed grow to maturity and bear fruit? One.

Analysis, did God take back the seed from the two that withered and was choked out? No. Did these ones fall from grace? Perhaps. Some say that these never were, that only mature, fruit-bearing believers are real believers.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/28/11


Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace.

The subject under discussion in this section is the problem of the teaching that one is justified (declared righteous) by obedience to law. We see that from the previous verse.

5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

The law here reflected that law given to the nation of Israel = circumcision, dietary laws, Sabbath keeping, etc., not was is commonly viewed as moral law.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


//If there was nothing we could do to obtain salvation, there is nothing we can do to retain salvation.

Those that are begotten of God are His children. They do not become un-begotten nor will God who loves His children commit fraticide.

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those concerned with losing their salvation are those who can only focus on themselves and not the work that entails the salvation of others.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


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Grace is FREE--but it's not cheap.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/28/11


IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11

The question you are not answering is DO THEY LOSE THEIR SALVATION AND SOUL?

Being renewed to repentance does not give us any answer to their eternal state.

Is your understanding of Heb 4:6 compatible with this verse:

Phil 1:6 "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus"

Do you want to add to end of this verse "only if you keep on keeping on"?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/28/11


If there was nothing we could do to obtain salvation, there is nothing we can do to retain salvation.
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
---Micha9344 on 10/28/11


"Kathren
You are correct in saying Calvinists have a hard time contextualizing."

Paul
---Paul on 10/28/11

Agree with that and moreover with the clear exposition of Grace that
kathr4453 have shared with us, a blessing, a bastion of light standing
as a lighthouse amidst the darknes.

God Bless.
---Nana on 10/28/11


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MarkV 10/28
Rocky, I answered you already
That is a lie. I have asked you many things you never answered. I even reposted them and still no answer.
will not attempt to have a discussion with you because everything is distorted that anyone says
Saying "everything" is an obvious exaggeration and lie and proves you have little interest in truth. I don't say everything anyone says is distorted, but it is easy to see why I say that so much about what you say.
I ask for an answer but I want an honest one, not more distortion and lies like this post.
Is sad that you can't explain your own beliefs.
---Rocky on 10/28/11


Kathr//Can one fall from GRACE? Galatians says one can. \\

I disagree...Gal. 3:26 says that by Faith in Jesus Christ we are children of God.
I do not believe that is what Paul was refering to. I believe he ment that we can fall from experiencing Gods grace, but our position in the grace of God is secure.
---JIM on 10/28/11


one can turn from their salvation by not following Christs teachings.

For example, if you dont forgive you wont receive forgiveness.
So what does that mean....

Kathren
You are correct in saying Calvinists have a hard time contextualizing.

Paul
---Paul on 10/28/11


There is no other book in all of scripture that explains GRACE more than Galatians.

These fell from Grace. SO let's SEE what they actually FELL FROM.

Let's look at what Paul states IS GRACE and what is NOT GRACE.

Grace is not God's majic wand picking and choosing who will and won't be saved.

GRACE is clearly defined in Galatians:

Crucified with Christ
Crucified to the World
Christ in you,
Christ formed in you.
SUFFERING
SEPARATION

All other Gospels of Grace are accursed.

There is only ONE Gospel of GRACE.

Can one fall from GRACE? Galatians says one can.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11


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FOR Those who understand sentence structure and parts of speech:


it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come((,)) COMMA ...CONCLUSION TO BEGINNING OF SENTENCE>>> ,IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

Calvinists are not capable of reading long complex sentences. They only see the first few words and never read the concluding words of any sentense or paragraph.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11


Let's face facts here, After Paul wrote Galatians, do we really KNOW what happened to those who fell from Grace? Did Paul write Galatians 2 like he did 2nd Corinthians?

Paul clearly states in Galatians one can fall from GRACE. They can fail to execute this GIFT given in their lives, Galatians 2:20-21 and go and live under the Law.

What does Galatians say about GRACE?

I am Crucified to the World and the Wordl to me = SEPARATION.

I am Crucified with Christ and it is HIS Life now living through me = GRACE vs works of man.

I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus= SUFFERING.
Read Gal ch 3...have ye suffered so much IN VAIN.

Any other Gospel of Grace is accursed.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11


"Jesus never said that salvation was a gift." Barb

Do you agree the Holy Bible is also known as the Word of God? And that the Word is a person called Jesus Christ who's God? The Gospel of John 1 will enlighten you on this if you're not sure. This is what Christ declared:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11:25 - isn't this speaking of salvation to eternal life?

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3, "...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
---christan on 10/28/11


MarkV 10/27/11 (2/2)
Praise the Lord. Let's hear more of his word:
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
---Rocky on 10/28/11


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lee1538 I suppose He could. However He will not,
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:29 NKJV
---Josef on 10/28/11


The writer says, it's impossible to loose salvation when one is truly born of the Spirit of God.
--christan 10/27
You need to re-read Hebrews 6:4-6 which you quoted. It says "For it is impossible... and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance,
It does not say it is impossible for them to loose salvation but to renew again after they fall away. And that only applies to those that "tasted the powers of the word to come" among other things.
You really should be careful with the "shut your mouths" and "calling God a liar" stuff.
---Rocky on 10/28/11


MarkV, HELLO?? I quoted to you HEBREWS 10:26-31. That is not an account of someone "losing their Salvation", but rather, it indicates to us that IT IS A POSSIBILITY. YAHUSHUA did not shed His Blood JUST so that we can all "end up in Heaven and live happily ever after :-)" He died so that we would discontinue living in sin and learn to walk in the Ways of GOD. Which, in turn, brings Everlasting Life in Heaven. It's a Race to be ran, which not all will win. YAHUSHUA says in LUKE 13:24 "Strive to enter in at the Strait Gate: for MANY, I say unto you, WILL SEEK TO ENTER IN, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE." How many Christians are striving but will not be able to enter because of continual compromise and disobedience?
---Gordon on 10/28/11


Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
According to Hebrews 6:4-6, if we fall away after tasting the powers of the word to come (among other things), then it will be impossible to renew with repentance. What does "tasting of the powers of the world to come" mean?
---Rocky on 10/28/11


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Rocky, I answered you already, and will not attempt to have a discussion with you because everything is distorted that anyone says. Why answer? Now we have Gordon who never says people distort what they say, he disagrees because of his intepretation of Scripture but not because he doesn't believe Scripture as you do. Again you will say I distort things, but you said, some parts of Scripture were not true. And that the Spirit helps you discern what it true. So you do not deserve an answer, for what?
---Mark_V. on 10/28/11


francis, with these 4 verses you put here I know MarkV and Christan and Leej will deny these verses apply to them, although they say the Bible was written to Christians ONLY.

What it does apply to is that it refutes the whole TULIP doctrine altoghther, that Grace is irresistable and the Holy Spirit can't be resisted.

With point 1 and 2 here I can only imagine what they will say to that.

But we all know...they will come up with some answer.

Probably blame the POTTER OR the CLAY for any shortcommings, being OK under their doctrine, becausse if God molded you to backslide...then that's that. NO ACCOUNTABILITY!
It's called:

CHEAP GRACE!!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/11


Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them, for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,.. and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,... If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
---francis on 10/27/11


Isaiah 55:11 says,

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth,
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"

So, I see that God's word is unconditionally guaranteed to accomplish all that God pleases. So, it is not about if we perform, but if God's word will succeed at doing all He means with each person who has truly trusted in Jesus. I believe God's word will not fail to perform all that God means, with each of us who are His children . . . every promise, command, description, etc. So, we trust Him to do what every scripture means to Him, better than we can try to do and would be sure not to perform.
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/27/11


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why don't you show us your proof? I waiting as I was waiting on the other blog.
MarkV 10/27/11
Mark, I am waiting on you for answers and proof on several blogs. I have even asked multiple times for answers to simple questions. Why do you not answer them? Why are you then being a hypocrite here and calling on Gordon to answer questions when you are not?
---Rocky on 10/27/11


barb //Jesus never said that salvation was a gift. It is Paul who said that.

of course you are joking as everyone that believes in the Bible recognizes it as the words of Jesus whether in the flesh or by His Spirit.

If you limit Jesus to the Gospels, then you should realize that He was under the Old Covenant dispensation and that the New Covenant did not come into being until after the Cross.
---lee1538 on 10/27/11


For those who believe God rescinds or withdraws His salvation, let Scripture shut your mouths and accuse you of calling God a liar, it is written:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

The writer says, it's impossible to loose salvation when one is truly born of the Spirit of God. The question then becomes, are you really born of the Spirit to begin with?
---christan on 10/27/11


Jesus never said that salvation was a gift. It is Paul who said that. Read all of John 3 not just verse 16 and see if you can hear what Jesus is saying.

When we choose to follow Jesus and study His words which were given to Him by His Father then we learn the truth which sets us free. Learning the truth is the first step to santification.
---barb on 10/27/11


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//So the question is, If YOU say, God can renege on His promises to Israel, because THEY didn't do this or that, THEN the Same God, ( yours that is) can also renege on any promise to you...

While God will not go back on His word, as there are things that God will not do because of His nature.

However, in this world, His will not be thrawed even if you have other plans. You exist for His glory, not your own and we will have less problems if we make our will submit to His.
---lee1538 on 10/27/11


Nana //Out of 21 Bible versions only 2 say that the (spirit will be saved ).
All others say "may", not "will". Is God Sovereign or only when is
convenient lee?
---
We are thrown back onto what we believe to be correct doctrine as no verse in scripture should have an interpretation apart from the rest of Scripture.

John 3:16 NLT For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

(3,16) NIV...that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

(3:16) KJV ... should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So take your pick - will, shall, or should not perish.
---lee1538 on 10/27/11


God never renege on His promises to Irael. Israel did. God's promises for them were on condition that if they did what God told them to do, He would do His promises. The same promises given to Adam and Eve, "And the Lord commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" that is why they died. No eternal life. The Covenant of Grace is all of God. No merits are involve. God saves by His Grace. The bringing alive, the faith to believe in Christ works, and the repentance that comes through the conviction of the Spirit, and atonement is all of God.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/11


Only the children of promise are counted as the seed. God made a lot of promises, not all are the same promises. This promise in Romans 9 is the promise Messiah who would come out of Israel, bringing eternal life and an eternal kindgom to those who believe by faith. Not all physical descendants of Abraham are true heirs of the promise (v. 2:28,29).
---Mark_V. on 10/27/11


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MarkV 10/27/11 (1/2)
We know what God has to say
Yes, we do.:
Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(continued)
---Rocky on 10/27/11


Gordon, you have said a lot and have yet to give one passage where someone was actually saved and lost their salvation. Not a one.
MarkV 10/27/11
And how many someones can you list that the Bible says were actually saved? Out of the thousands of people named in the Bible, how many does the Bible actually say are saved? If the Bible only lists the few outstanding examples of people that are saved, is it any wonder he has not listed those who might have been saved and that lost their salvation through disobedience to God's commandments? What a silly argument you make.
---Rocky on 10/27/11


MarkV, are you saved?
If so:
Does that mean you are guaranteed salvation and can't lose it?
That you are now perfect and never disobey a commandment or that it is OK and never counted against you?
Were you predestined to salvation?
---Rocky on 10/27/11


Perhaps what we do will bring God's discipline on us to the point that our bodies will be destroyed so that our spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.
---lee1538 on 10/27/11

I have stressed this very point with the John 15 passage.

John 15:2-3 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away, and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit"

These branches that God takes away are IN CHRIST as opposed to the branches in verse 6 who are NOT in Christ.

These people do not please God and do not work for God. They bear no fruit. They qualify for bodily destruction as you have said. But they are not thrown into the fire as those are who are not in Christ.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/27/11


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It's not a matter of God taking back the gift He gave to us, it's a matter of us losing the gift, quenching the gift to the point of no return (sometimes).

Sin will cause us to lose our salvation if we continue in that sin with no repentence. John was writing to Christians in the Epistle of First John 1:9 when he said, "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So Christians do sin and if they don't repent, the wages of sin is death, eternal separation from God.
It's not a matter of God taking anything back that He's given us, it's a matter of us losing it.
---anon on 10/27/11


Out of 21 Bible versions only 2 say that the (spirit will be saved ).
All others say "may", not "will". Is God Sovereign or only when is
convenient lee?
---Nana on 10/27/11


Well, some here believe the Sovereignnty of God is doing anything He wants when He wants, because He is Sovereign.

So the question is, If YOU say, God can renege on His promises to Israel, because THEY didn't do this or that, THEN the Same God, ( yours that is) can also renege on any promise to you...


OR

Romans 9-11 reiterate that God's promises to Israel are just as much a promise that cannot be broken to them as His Gift and promises are to you.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/11


2 Cor. 5:4-5 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Perhaps what we do will bring God's discipline on us to the point that our bodies will be destroyed so that our spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.
---lee1538 on 10/27/11


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Gordon, you have said a lot and have yet to give one passage where someone was actually saved and lost their salvation. Not a one. You have not given us Scripture where it says that those born of the Spirit lose their spiritual rebirth and go back to been dead again. You have not shown where it says, that the passages in Eph. 2:1-10 are lies. We know what God has to say, how about showing us what you have to say? You are very much convince otherwise why don't you show us your proof? I waiting as I was waiting on the other blog.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/11


\\It is what WE do. We forfeit our Salvation when we do not "perform" according to His Ways. It IS a matter of going along with GOD's Ways. For it's HIS Kingdom we're striving to enter into.\\

So Gordon, what you are saying is that you really believe in salvation by works.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/27/11


"Were this true, salvation would not be a gift, would it?"

Cluny on 10/26/11

Perhaps it is not a gift but a relationship,

John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

John 15:1_2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

Salvation is the Lord's to give or take away.
Why some of you stop your nasty 'Sovereingty' talk as soon as you see your stuff touched, but have no issue with that of another!
---Nana on 10/27/11


LEE, YES, simply put, GOD can "take back" the Gift of Salvation that He has given to someone. But, "taking back" is not so much what GOD does. It is what WE do. We forfeit our Salvation when we do not "perform" according to His Ways. It IS a matter of going along with GOD's Ways. For it's HIS Kingdom we're striving to enter into. Not our own made up one. People quote ROMANS 8:1, but, they usually quote only the first part. The Verse in it's completeness says that There is, therefore, no Condemnation to those who are in YAHUSHUA(CHRIST JESUS) who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT, AFTER THE SPIRIT. There's a Holy Stipulation there. It's not veing "mean". It's for a warning. For, it's so easy to get into sin.
---Gordon on 10/27/11


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God never takes salvation back,mankind throws it away. Salvation comes to us through grace and Christ is the gate to our salvation but when we accept it we do so on God's terms. Salvation is free but when we take that free gift we take the responsibility which goes with it. That is to walk as Christ walked,in the Spirit, and holiness and just as he was to be obedient to God the Father,we too are to obey God's will and live to God and die to self. Matthew 4:10 tells us we are to serve God only.
---Darlene_1 on 10/27/11


Even God cannot undo what happened on the cross. God cannot remove the nails or undo the gospel.

You realize that Jesus is the savior. You cannot UN-realize it (no matter how bad you feel about what you have ever done).

God can't turn back the hands of time and neither can you (what happened HAPPENED).

God does not want puppets.

God doesn't need anyone to do His bidding AT ALL (PERFORM ACCORDINGLY???, God is not a 'puppeteer').

God is not needy. We have NOTHING that He will value except a HEART/love.
---more_excellent_way on 10/27/11


When God makes a covenant, He never breaks that covenant or He would be an unfaithful God. Which is impossible! It is written:

"God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:9, "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thessalonians 5:24, "But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil." 2 Thessalonians 3:3.

It's only when one who does not believe in the election by grace that he/she thinks that "God in His sovereignty take that gift back if we do not perform accordingly." What is the standard of this "performance" that we must "perform"?
---christan on 10/27/11


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