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Explain Acts Chapter 15

In Acts 15, exactly what was required of Gentile Christians?

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 ---lee1538 on 10/27/11
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Interestingly in Hebrew only one day has a name, and that is Saturday which is called Shabbat (Sabbath). The other days are named-First day, Second day, Third Day, Fourth Day, Fifth day and Sixth day. This exactly mirrors what is written in Genesis ch. 1 at the end or each creation day! And they are obviously 24hr days.

That sorta locks Saturday in as the original Sabbath, doesn't it. And the length of the creation days!

Also interestingly the name for Saturday in Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, and Greek is almost the same as their word for Sabbath. I wonder where they got that from?
---Warwick on 11/6/11


LEE, GENESIS 2:1-3 tells us when GOD first established His Holy Day of the week. "...And on the Seventh Day GOD ended His Work which He had made, and He RESTED on the SEVENTH DAY from all His Work...And GOD Blessed the SEVENTH DAY, and SANCTIFIED IT (MADE IT HOLY)..." Is that not the same day of the week that He instructs His people to regard as a Sabbath Day of REST as per the Ten Commandments?! EXODUS 20:8-11. The Book of ACTS still mentions the regarding of the Sabbath Day, the Seventh Day Sabbath.
---Gordon on 11/6/11


As far as I know "the lord's day" is Sunday the 1st day of the week, which celebrates the Lord's resurrection. It is not the Sabbath, which is the 7th day.
---Warwick on 11/6/11


The Bible does NOT identify what day of the week the Lord's day is so all we can do is to look to the writings the early church.
---lee1538 on 11/5/11

Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from THE SABBATH, from doing thy pleasure on MY HOLY DAY, and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable,

tHAT CANNOT BE MADE CLEARER
---Francis on 11/5/11


Francis //Either way you go, church father or bible. you will see that 7th day is God's Holy Day, the Lord's day unchanging by God or man
---

The Bible does NOT identify what day of the week the Lord's day is so all we can do is to look to the writings the early church.

Since the Lord's day has always been identified as being the 1st day of the week in early writings, there is little choice but to accept that.

You however, have chosen to view the Lord's day as being Saturday but you have virtually nothing to support your view.
---lee1538 on 11/5/11




Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them THE NEXT SABBATH.
Acts 13:44 And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath dayEVERY SABBATH DAY.

This is still true in my church today as it was 40 years into christianity: If you want to hear the Gospel you must come NEXT SABBATH
If you want to hear the word of God ( moses of old) It is preached EVERY SABBATH.

THIS IS TRUE TODAY IN MY CHURCH AS IT WAS WHEN LUKE WROTE IT. How it is in your church?
---francis on 11/5/11


When I posted church history to show that the RCC did attemt to change the sabbath to sunday you posted:
"We need to reason from the standpoint of scripture more so than what the early church fathers or what the established church may claim.
---lee1538 on 11/3/11"

Then when I quoted the Holy Bible to show that the ONLY day is the bible which is the Lord's day is the 7th day you went to the church father:

"107AD IGNATIUS: let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day,"Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)
---lee1538 on 11/5/11

Either way you go, church father or bible. you will see that 7th day is God's Holy Day, the Lord's day unchanging by God or man
---francis on 11/5/11


Acts 13:42-44 The "Jews and religious proselytes " are all christians. It is only to those who have accepted the grace of God (JESUS CHRIST) that Paul would say continue in the grace of God. Yet these christians are gathers to worship ON THE SABBATH. the unbelieving gentiles request this gospel preached to them NEXT sabbath. This is more than 10 reays after Jesus death. It is only because all christians are observing the sabbath, that these "Jews and religious proselytes" are gathered on sabbath, and not sittig at home waiting for the first day. If these christians had any regard for sunday as " the lord's day" They would be meeting next day and "almost the whole city" would have joined them
---Francis on 11/5/11


Francis //Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,...The only day is the bible which is called the lord's day is the sabbath
----------
Your assertion is at odds with all the early church records.

107AD IGNATIUS: let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)

Sorry but the Lord did not command observance of the Jewish Sabbath, nor any strictly Jewish law, to Gentile converts.
---lee1538 on 11/5/11


//This gives further proof that christians 40 years after the death of jesus continued to keep the sabbath
---
Ignatius, To the Magnesians c. 107 A.D.

"We have seen how former adherents of the ancient customs have since attained to a new hope, so that they have given up keeping the sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead (the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death."

While the early Jewish Church continued in the Mosaic traditions even observing the OT Sabbath, its observance by Gentile churches was no longer observed by the beginning of the 2d century.

The proof is in the church fathers, some were disciples of Apostles themselves.
---lee1538 on 11/5/11




Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,

The only day is the bible which is called the lord's day is the sabbath
Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath,... my holy day,
Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

(LORDS DAY being different from THE DAY OF THE LORD)
When John wrote that he was in the spirit on THE LORD'S DAY, He is saying that he was in the spirit on THE SABBATH DAY. This is how the churches who read his letter understood it. They never referred to the day on which Jesus resurrected as " the lord's day."
This gives further proof that christians 40 years after the death of jesus continued to keep the sabbath
---Francis on 11/5/11


Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath IN EVERY CITY them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY.

How does that help the gentile converts get away from the sabbath?
What possible impact did that statement have on gentile converts concerning the sabbath?
Is it pointing them away from THE SABBATH, or towards THE SABBATH?

If you were writing a letter to someone about christianity, would you tell them that the word of God is preached in church every SUNDAY or EVERY SABBATH?

If you told them every sunday, how would that impact them as far as the sabbath was concerned?
If you did what the apostles did and wrote every sabbath how would that impact them as far as the sabbath was concerned?
---francis on 11/4/11


So we may conclude in accordance to what we read both in the Scripture and in the history of the early chruch that what was required of Gentile converts was that we "should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality" and to be able to fellowship with Jewish beleivers to abstain from "what has been strangled, and from blood"- sensitve issues to Jews who wished to continue in the Mosaic traditions & customs.

Sorry Adventists, virtually nothing mandated to observe the Jewish Sabbath or the Levitcal dietary laws - or others things that would have hindened the spread of the Gospel.

You need to stop twisting the scripture to fit into that 'another gospel' of Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11


it is interesting that Adventists in their extreme effort to justify observance of the olde Jewish Sabbath will quote those verses that speak of Moses being preached in the Jewish synagogues but what they fail miserably to understand is that the Apostles in preaching the gospel message used what Moses wrote to prove Jesus was the promised Messiah.

Nowhere did the Apostles advocate the Jewish Sabbath or teach the laws of Moses. And that is very evident from the fact that the successors of the Apostles did not teach Sabbath observance or the Levitical dietary laws to Gentile converts.

Sorry but history is very plain on this issue but history is something Adventist cannot read especially if it disagrees with the erroneous doctrines.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11


The apostles never wrote about Moses being preached in the synagogues every sabbath.
---micha9344 on 11/4/11
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

But the people were unable to obey God's law totally. So the 1st covenant was faulty.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11
Hebrews 8:8 ForFINDING FAULT WITH THEM, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---francis on 11/4/11


Francis, you are telling falsehood.
Please stop.
The apostles never wrote about Moses being preached in the synagogues every sabbath.
A careful study of Acts 15 will reveal what is being wrote and what is being spoken at the assembly.
If you continue to disregard the obvious, the only explainantion is that your placing your beliefs into the written text and not forming your beliefs from the text.
Doctrine without concern for facts is indoctrination.
Acts 15:23-29 is what was written.
Quit trying to place Acts 15:21 into the letter.
It was spoken at the assembly.
Acts 15:24 answers your sabbath question "we gave no such commandment"
---micha9344 on 11/4/11


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//There was nothing wrong with this covenant. It would have worked just fine IF the people had obeyed God's laws.

But the people were unable to obey God's law totally. So the 1st covenant was faulty.

Heb 8:7 For IF the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

(8:13) In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

As long as you live under the laws of an obsolete covenant and reject the grace God provides, then you will simply be another law promoting Sabbath keeping Pharisee believing in your own righteousness, not in the righteousness of God imparted to believers in Him.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11


Exodus 19:5 if ye will obey my voice, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

There was nothing wrong with this covenant. It would have worked just fine IF the people had obeyed God's laws.
Because they did not keep his laws, God made a new covenant.
---Francis on 11/3/11


The apostes, including Paul have two great opportunities to get GENTILE CONVERTS away from keeping the sabbath. Acts 15 is one of those great opportunities. They are writing a letter in which they clearly state that Gentile converts DO NOT HAVE TO BE CIRCUMCISED. All they needed to add was " nor keep the sabbath." Instead this is what the apostles wrote:
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath IN EVERY CITYthem that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY.

How does that help the gentile converts get away from the sabbath?
What possible impact did that statement have on gentile converts concerning the sabbath?
Is it pointing them away from THE SABBATH, or towards THE SABBATH?
---francis on 11/3/11


---Darlene_1 on 11/3/11
I really like what you posted. This is the old covenant:

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

NO INDICATION OF INTERNAL / HOLY SPIRIT HELP
---Francis on 11/3/11


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The difference is the Old was outside a person trying to make them better within and the New is within a person making them better outside.
---Darlene_1 on 11/3/11

OK I agree with that!!

That is why in the New Covenant God promises to but his laws not on tablets of stone, but in our INWARD PARTS. So that love is not external but flows from within

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws INTO THEIR MINDS, and WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The law itself dfoes not change, but the location changes. With that change LOVE is the fulfilment
---Francis on 11/3/11


Francis of course I know that. In the Old Testament God gave all the Comandments,ordinances and everything to teach people from without how to do what will bring harmony and teach how to love in life trough obedience to God's rules. In the New Testament God gave them love to form their actions based on love of God within them. The difference is the Old was outside a person trying to make them better within and the New is within a person making them better outside.
---Darlene_1 on 11/3/11


So, what's different/why did Jesus say NEW commandment?
(AS He has loved us...)
---chria9396 on 11/3/11
CONTEXT is the difference. NOT DOCTRINE

You your say that in the OT there is no commandment to LOVE EACH OTHER?

Proverbs 17:17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.
---francis on 11/3/11


"Did you know that those two commandments are not new, but taken from the OT?"
Jesus said: Jn 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another, AS I HAVE LOVED YOU, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

So, what's different/why did Jesus say NEW commandment?
(AS He has loved us...)
---chria9396 on 11/3/11


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Francis, they are not new concepts but they are the only one's Jesus our Savior spoke that believers in Christ to do. It does not change anything Darline said. Those people in the Old Testament could not love God with all their hearts, but all new believers in Christ do love Christ with all their hearts, because He first loved us.
---Mark_V. on 11/3/11


The Law of Love covers all of the Commandments ---Darlene_1 on 11/2/11

Did you know that those two commandments are not new, but taken from the OT?

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:18 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:

These are not new concepts, in both OT and NT we understand that keeping the first 4 commandments is loving God
and keeping the last six is loving your neighbour

That is why in Romans 13:9 paul only list five of the last six and says this is love thy neighbour

Look at jesus words: Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
---Francis on 11/2/11


francis - you rattle off the listing of the 10 commandments and say //If ONE of these is for jews only then ALL of these are for jews only.
---
Consider -

De 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deut. 5:2-3 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.

The old covenant is the 10 commandments, "with us" meaning the people of Israel ONLY, not with the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, American Indians, etc.

What is for us who believe, is Christ for salvation is in Him, not in the law.
---lee1538 on 11/2/11


Fancis,Christians who think we are to still adhere to the very letter of the Ten Commandments and other Old Testament Laws don't seem to understand,we are under the Law of Love. The Law of Love covers all of the Commandments for if one loves as they should they will not do those things they shouldn't and will do the things they should. As for the Sabbath the New Testament says not to let anyone judge you on your Holy Day and Sabbath. Just as we cannot sew new fabric to old for it will tearout,we cannot intertwine the Old and New Testament laws,for the Old Covenant has passed away,it had to for the New to come into being. When Christians try to live by both Old and New they are making life harder on themselves than even God does.
---Darlene_1 on 11/2/11


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Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: .
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house

If ONE of these is for jews only then ALL of these are for jews only because they were all given at sinai and all given at the same time, by the same person to the same audience.
---Francis on 11/2/11


Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: .
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house

If ONE of these is for jews only then ALL of these are for jews only.
---Francis on 11/2/11


Francis to describe the OT Sabbath as being the Jewish sabbath is totally accurate since the Sabbath was given ONLY to the Jewish people at Sinai. Ask any knowledgeable Jew if the Sababth was given only to the nation of Israel.

While you make a distinction in the law, the Bible does NOT. While the 10 commandments on stone was placed in the Ark of the Covenant, they were also written in that book placed beside the Ark. As such they are viewed by Biblical scholars as being part of the Mosaic law. See any Bible dictionary.
---lee1538 on 11/2/11


Francis, since you did not answer my quote from Acts 15, I assume you have no answer. Now for the Jewish Sabbath. I did not mention those words, I'm sure they were put that way because the Saturday Sabbath was for the Jews. So Jewish Sabbath sounds pretty good to me.
Concerning your answer, you say you follow Jesus, but Jesus was not incarnated in the Old Testament and your believes are from the Old Testament. Hebrews does speak of the nature of Christ, it never changes, but His works changed through history that is very clear. First, the gospel went to Israel, who received the gospel, and rejected it, now the gospel is open to everyone. Though God never changes, His works concerning human being do change.
---Mark_V. on 11/2/11


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lee1538, I have answered MANY of your question. Can you answer these TWO FOR ME?

In what BCV did you get the phrase " JEWISH SABBATH" from.
How does the BIBLE refer to the sabbath day?

-micha9344 on 11/1/11
See your TWO post on 10/31/11 you will see you assumption that the sabbath was the law of Moses.

Now if you are saying that the sabbath is not the law of Moses, (THEN I APPOLAGISE FOR MY ASSUMPTION) but then you have a big problem, because the texts read: Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

If the sabbath is not part of the law of Moses, then it MUST BE KEPT
---francis on 11/1/11


Frances //It is because I follow JESUS:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the SAME YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOR EVER. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

FALSE FALSE FALSE, you do not follow Jesus, what you follow is the law.

The fact is you do not trust Jesus for your salvation thinking that the obedience to law is what will merit you entrance into eternal life.

Cultic religion is much like the worldly thorns that smother the seed that planted but in your case, what you have is tares sown among the wheat and who planted those tares. Ellen White who got booted out of a church that preached the gospel message that whoever believes on God will be saved.
---lee1538 on 11/1/11


lee1538, clunu, Mark_v, ROD

THIS IS THE BILLION DOLLAR QUESTION:

In what BCV did you get the phrase " JEWISH SABBATH" from.

It is obvious that we serve two different Gods. My God has no such thing as JEWISH SABBATH

This is what My Bible and My God says:
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Leviticus 23:3 it is the sabbath of the LORD

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, ..my holy day,
---francis on 11/1/11


"-micha9344 on 10/31 How did you determine that the ten commandments which were spoken by God himself to israel, and written by God himself on two tables of stone is THE LAW OF MOSES?"
-Francis on 10/31/11
--When did I determine this?
Are you reading things out of context again?
---micha9344 on 11/1/11


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francis //Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
---
Very true for those under the Old Covenant law.

However Adventists rarely read the New Testament which expresses the New Covenant.

If they would, they may understand that -

"when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, TO REDEEM those who were under the law, so we might receive adoption as sons." Gal 4:4-5

Can you can be held accountable for something you know nothing about?
---lee1538 on 11/1/11


You said you still do the same as those days of old, so you are really still living as those Jews did in the past living by the same laws and the same days. ---Mark_V. on 10/31/11

It is because I follow JESUS:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the SAME YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOR EVER. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
---Francis on 10/31/11


Francis, in Acts 15 the Sabbath was never a problem for the Judaizers concerning the Gentiles. Circumcision in order to be save was the heresy propagated by these false teachers of legalism, teaching a salvation by works. These certain man (v.1) were self appointed. When the apostles and the elder Jews got together Paul explained to them that the Gentiles were save already and given the Holy Spirit, why put a yoke on them when they were free already? The same you are trying to do, put a yoke on all others. He told them not to trouble or annoy the Gentiles. But the Sabbath was never a problem. The fact is they were sent on their way by the Church to speak to the Jews at their syangogues where they met on the Sabbath.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/11


Francis in your bid to impose the jewish sabbath onto believers you really ignore totally the conclusion of the Jerusalem council.

15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Notice also the issue to be resolved was that the Gentiles needed not be circumcised AND obserse the law of Moses of which the Sabbath was but one law. (15:5)

15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, AND keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
---lee1538 on 11/1/11


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francis on 10/31/11 How is it in your church lee1538?
---
My church fully reocognizes that the Jewish sabbath as well as laws strictly Jewish were not imposed on the Gentile church. They see that in the writings of the early church.
---lee1538 on 11/1/11


The apostes, including Paul have two great opportunities to get GENTILE CONVERTS away from keeping the sabbath. Acts 15 is one of those great opportunities. They are writing a letter in which they clearly state that Gentile converts DO NOT HAVE TO BE CIRCUMCISED. All they needed to add was " nor keep the sabbath." Instead this is what the apostles wrote:
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath IN EVERY CITYthem that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY.

How does that help the gentile converts get away from the sabbath?
What possible impact did that statement have on gentile converts concerning the sabbath?
Is it pointing them away from THE SABBATH, or towards THE SABBATH?
---Francis on 10/31/11


Keep in mind that the whole book of Acts is dealing with events of the early church. At that time of this council most of the converts to Christianity were Jews. Paul, and others had just started witnessing to Gentiles. So these new Jewish converts, some being Pharisees wanted the Gentile Christians to obey circumcision. Paul, and some of the others disagreed. Most of the 15th chapter deals with this matter of Gentiles be circumcised There was some differences as to what should be required on these new Gentile Christians.
After the matter was settled, the council sent Paul and others on their way, and this was the start of Paul's second missionary journey
---wivv on 10/31/11


Francis, so why are people going there on the Sabbath Day, Paul is not there teaching the gospel? Those days have passed. We now have the Church, people don't have to hang around in a Syangogues on Sabbath Day, they can now go to a Church on Sabbath Day. You said you still do the same as those days of old, so you are really still living as those Jews did in the past living by the same laws and the same days. That is why I have said to you, that you have not moved forward. You have not joined the Church. The Body of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 10/31/11


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-michael_e on 10/31/1
Three question must be asked here
1: How did you determine that the ten commandments are the law of Moses?
2: What does act 15 say about the sabbath?
3: How does telling the believing Gentiles that the word of God is preaced every sabbath help them to get away from lmosiac law?
---Francis on 10/31/11


Thne dictionary definition of what constitutes the law of Moses is that it "signifies the whole body of Mosaic legislation (1 Kings 2:3), 2 Kings 23:25, Ezra 3,2), called with reference to its divine origin the law of Jehovah (or law of the Lord)".

So in using the dictionary definition, the Adventist position is found wanting.

1 Kings 2:3 keep the charge of the LORD your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn,
---lee1538 on 10/31/11


---micha9344 on 10/31

How did you determine that the ten commandments which were spoken by God himself to israel, and written by God himself on two tables of stone is THE LAW OF MOSES?
---Francis on 10/31/11


Jerusalem believers, headed up by the 12, were still living under law. They had not been told otherwise.
Acts 15:1 "AND certain men (these were believing Jews from Jerusalem) which came down from Judaea taught the brethren (at Antioch), and said, `Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses (what?), ye cannot be saved.'"
This is now 51 A.D. 23 years after Pentecost, and these believing Jews are still telling the Gentiles(saved under Paul's gospel 1Cor 15:1-4) at Antioch they can't be saved unless they keep the Mosaic Law, and circumcision
---michael_e on 10/31/11


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Well, francis, let's put Acts 15 in context.
Acts 15:1
-Christian Jews spreading falsehood about the faith.
Acts 15:5
-Pharisee believers added the law of Moses.
Acts 15:10
-The yoke is the law of Mose through circumcision which all died in the wilderness.
Acts 15:20
-What was actually written to gentile believers confirmed in Acts 15:29
Acts 15:21
-Reverts back to the assembly concerning the law of Moses being spoke in the Jewish synagogues by Jews on the Sabbath day which is proclaimed by God to be a sign of the covenant between Himself and the children of Israel, Exo 31:17
Acts 15:24
-No such command was given to the church to be circumcised and to keep the law, removing both false teaching requirements.
---micha9344 on 10/31/11



---lee1538 on 10/31/11
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them THE NEXT SABBATH.
Acts 13:44 And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY.

This is still true in my church today as it was 40 years into christianity: People come one sabbath to hear the gospel, and they come NEXT SABBATH to hear it again.
If you want to hear the word of God ( moses of old) It is preached EVERY SABBATH.

How is it in your church lee1538?
---francis on 10/31/11


Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day. Is written to GENTILE CONVERTS and NOT JEWS.

When Peter went to Antioch (Gal. 2), there were many converts from Judaism in the church who continued in the Mosaic tradition.

Allowance had to be made for the convictions of the Jewish converts so a request was made of Gentiles to honor those convictions - "abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled (Mosaic laws), and from sexual immorality" (always a sensitive issue). Acts 15.

If Gentile converts did not tolerate Jewish convictions, then how could a mixed church have any worthwhile fellowship?
---lee1538 on 10/31/11


Francis//This is still true in my church today as it was 40 years into christianity: People come one sabbath to hear the gospel, and they come NEXT SABBATH to hear it again.

Don't understand why you keep bringing this up as the answer has already been provided.

As stated before anyone with a knowledge of early church should be able to tell you that the Apostles in order to present the Gospel message, always addressed the largest audience they could find and that was in the synagogues on the Sabbath.

While the earliest church grew up around the synagogues most Jews did not accept the gospel the early church motif became the house church. Acts often reveals the conflict between Jews and Gentiles.
---lee1538 on 10/31/11


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Heb 8:8 ....I will make a new covenant with THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with THE HOUSE OF JUDAH:
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert GRAFTED contrary to nature into a good olive tree:

...preached by 12 apostles (ALL JEWS)
---francis on 10/28/11

Judah does not equal all 12 distinct names of Israel. You cannot find anywhere in scripture that they do.
Read "House of Israel" AND Judah.
Israel is the Olive Tree. All Israel. The wild part is the Northern House Divorced. Grafting Olive with Olive.
Twelve Disciples. Twelve should be your clue that they represent and judge at a gate each tribal/nation of Israel.
Nations/Ethnos of Israel.
---Trav on 10/31/11


MARK-V
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them THE NEXT SABBATH.
Acts 13:44 And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY.

This is still true in my church today as it was 40 years into christianity: People come one sabbath to hear the gospel, and they come NEXT SABBATH to hear it again.
If you want to hear the word of God ( moses of old) It is preached EVERY SABBATH.

How is it in your church?
---Francis on 10/31/11


Francis, your arguements are very wrong. First of all when those passages were written, the Church was just beginning. The Jews had been reading the law of Moses on the Sabbath, they were not saved, if they had been, they would not need the gospel that Paul brought. What better place for Paul to go to? Where they met, on the day they met. If people, Jews or Gentiles, unbelievers, wanted to hear Paul and the word he brought, the best place was where Paul was going to be. The Gentile who were believers already met on Sundays at their churches. You keep quoting the Law of Moses and Saturday Sabbath just like those who were not saved.
Also, giving Heb. 3:8 does not help you either. It's talking about the Nature of God, His nature never changes.
---Mark_V. on 10/31/11


Why not the first day?
Because Jews go to synagogues on the Sabbath.
---micha9344 on 10/30/11

You do understand that: Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Is writen to GENTILE CONVERTS and NOT JEWS.

If you are trying to get Gentiles away from "JEWISH LAW" as you guys say, then why quote from " the law of Moses?"

How does telling a group of gentile churches that the word of God is preached every sabbath help get them away from "jewish laws?"

Do you tell anyone that the word of God is preached every sabbath as the apostles 40 years after the death of Jesus told the gentile churches?
---Francis on 10/30/11


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//Christians were repeatedly thrown out of the synagogues for preaching Christ.

Yes, Adventists seem to want us to believe Christians were made to feel at home in the Jewish synagogues.

However, history plainly reveals there was friction between Jews & Gentiles. We can easily see that when Paul had to rebuke Peter at Antioch when he separated himself from the Gentile believers.

it makes sense the imposition of strictly Jewish laws (Sabbath, dietary laws, circumcision, etc.) would have hindered the spread of the Gospel.

Fortunately by the time of the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, Gentile Christianity was well on the way to becoming a separate religion, not just another Jewish sect.
---lee1538 on 10/30/11


Why not the first day?
Because Jews go to synagogues on the Sabbath.
Christians were repeatedly thrown out of the synagogues for preaching Christ.
Look at the life of Paul..
Where and when did they meet?
The Lord's day, the first day of the week, as evidenced by all the different countries that use "Lord's Day" as the name of the first day of the week.
As in our Lord Jesus Christ, the day He was resurrected.
---micha9344 on 10/30/11


Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them THE NEXT SABBATH.
Acts 13:44 And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath dayEVERY SABBATH DAY.

This is still true in my church today as it was 40 years into christianity: If you want to hear the Gospel you must come NEXT SABBATH
If you want to hear the word of God ( moses of old) It is preached EVERY SABBATH.

THIS IS TRUE TODAY AS IT WAS WHEN LUKE WROTE IT
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
---francis on 10/29/11


//Why do these Gentiles have to wait until NEXT SABBATH to hear the word of God?

The early churches were formed around the synagogues which were ideal forum for the Apostles to present the Gospel, however as opposition from the Jews became more prevelant Christians were no longer welcome in synagogues (Acts 18:6)so met in house churches on the 1st day of the week.

//Why are the Jews and religious proselytes (christians) Not having a service NEXT DAY?

After the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple (70 A.D.), the leadership of the church passed to the Gentiles who largely met not in synagogues but in house churches and it was then that the church begin to lose its Jewishness.
---lee1538 on 10/29/11


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The Gentiles did NOT have their hearts cleansed by obedience to Jewish laws.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11

NEITHER DID THE JEWS!

If you understood YOUR religion, you would have understood the Judiasm is a religion of Faith not works!

The Works(or in Christainity ..Sanctification) were the results of faith. They did NOT believe in salvation by works, but by faith.
The only religion that belives in salvation by works is Hinduism.

YOU SHOUD STUDY AND UNDERSTAND YOU FAITH AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS STARTED BY ALL JEWS. NOT BY WORKS, BUT BY FAITH AS IT WAS SINCE THE BEGINNING.

Christainity is the final phase of Judaism. Like it or not YOU ARE FOLLOWING JUDAISM!!! ALL OF IT!!!
---John on 10/29/11


Acts 15: 10-11, 14-16
"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down, and I WILL BUILD again the ruins thereof, and I WILL SET IT UP"
"required", vs 29
---chria9396 on 10/30/11


Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY

So why not every FIRST DAY?

Acts 13:42 The Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Why do these Gentiles have to wait until NEXT SABBATH to hear the word of God?
Why are the "Jews and religious proselytes" ( christians) Not having a service NEXT DAY?
---Francis on 10/28/11


Francis - I understand your frustration in not accepting that strictly Jewish laws, circumcision, Sabbath keeping, and the like would have indeed hindered the spread of the gospel but that is true.

//Hebrews 8:8 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with THE HOUSE OF JUDAH:

(8:9)not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

"Not Like" means different not the same old covenant moved to a different place.

Sorry but Galatians (3:24) states the law was but a tutor until we could be justifed by faith so how then could the New Covenant be but a rehash of the Old?
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


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Francis //The bible says that Non-jews are GRAFTED IN:

Not into the religion of Judaism but into the household of God.

If Gentiles were 'grafted' into Judaism, then there would have been no need for the Jerusalem council Acts 15 but we see Gods Spirit being on anyone who believed and confessed Christ.

Acts 15:8-9 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

The Gentiles did NOT have their hearts cleansed by obedience to Jewish laws.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


//It would have been detrimental to the church to require Gentile converts to observe any law that was strictly Jewish in nature -lee1538 on 10/28/11 You would have to be blind and a fool to believe that:
----
The entire issue of the Jerusalem council was simply whether Gentile converts had to be become circumcised and observe the law of Moses.

(15:5) But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them AND to order them to keep the law of Moses."


What else could be more jewish than circumcision and the law of Moses?

Perhaps one would have to lack a brain to believe otherwise.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


Francis, you are very wrong. Hebrews 8:8 speaks of covenant, by its nature the Old Covenant was external, because it was of works, the New Covenant by nature is internal ( Ezek. 36:26,27). "Ready to vanish" Soon after the book of Hebrews was written, the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and its Levitical worship ended ( 5:1-4). The Old Covenant was incomplete and imperfect, was only intended to be temporary, the New Covanant is Perfect because of Christ and is meant to last forever. You saidl
"The bible says that Non-jews are GRAFTED IN:"
Paul anology, that God will at that time gladly graft the believing Jewish people back into the olive tree of His covanant blessing because it was thiers originally.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/11


It would have been detrimental to the church to require Gentile converts to observe any law that was strictly Jewish in nature -lee1538 on 10/28/11

You would have to be blind and a fool to believe that:

Hebrews 8:8 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with THE HOUSE OF JUDAH:

The New Covenant is MADE WITH JEWS

The bible says that Non-jews are GRAFTED IN:

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert GRAFTED contrary to nature into a good olive tree:

So non-jews are grafted into a Covenant made by Jesus ( A JEW) with Judah and ISRAEL ( JEWS) preached by 12 apostles (ALL JEWS)
---francis on 10/28/11


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Francis //Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY.

While many of the earliest churches were formed around the Jewish synagogues it was necessary to do those things that did not cause dissention with Jews that continued in the Mosaic customs and tradition.

Even while Paul was on his missionary journeys they often met on the 1st day of the week. Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2

Church historians found from historical records that Sunday was the main day of worship from the 2d century onward. House churches were the major place of communal worship, not synagogues.

Jewish leadership drastically declined after the destruction of the Jerusalem temple.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


The focus in Acts 15 concerned what laws Gentile converts needed to obey in order to be legitimate.

15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.

The view ALL the Bible pertained to Gentile converts is extremely poor exegetics of scripture since God made no distinction between Jews and Gentiles in giving of His Spirit and that without any prerequisite except to believe in His Son Jesus Christ.

God did NOT place the yoke on the neck of the converts that neither the disciples nor their forefathers were able to bear (15:10), namely the Mosaic laws or laws considered strictly Jewish in nature.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


It would have been detrimental to the church to require Gentile converts to observe any law that was strictly Jewish in nature = circumcision, dietary laws, the Sabbath, etc. The spread of the Gospel would have been hindered.

The Jewish Sabbath was another workday in the Gentile world and many converts were of common stock mostly of lower economic and social classes, working for others. Can we see a slave begging his master to give him Saturday off work so he could worship his god?

If the Sabbath was required of Gentiles, then clearly it would have been taught in the early church by the Apostles and their successors in their writings, but it was not.

Acts 15 did not mandate laws strictly Jewish to Gentile converts.
---lee1538 on 10/28/11


When God sent Jesus it was to give humankind a new Covenant Hebrews 8:13-he has made the first one obsolete. God sent a sacrificial Lamb,Jesus,his son,to be the blood sacrifice for a New Covenant. There cannot be a New Covenant without doing away with the Old,Hebrews 7:12,18,22 For when there is a change of Priesthood there must also be a change of law,18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless(for the Law made nothing perfect),Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. The Old Covenant is done away with but the reason for it isn't,to teach people how to love God and man. Thats all summed up in the Law of Love 1 Corinthins 13,and Commandments of Acts 15.
---Darlene_1 on 10/28/11


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Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

THIS IS NOT ALL THAT IS REQUIRED FOR GENTILE CONVERTS

The entire BIBLE applies to all who are in christ
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
---Francis on 10/27/11


The question lee1538 wants to ask is does ACT 15 exempt gentiles converts from keeping the sabbath.

The answer is NO, it encourages them to keep every sabbath

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH DAY
In order for these converts to learn more about the law of God, they would have to be taught from the torah. Because the only time that the torah was taught to both christians and jews was the sabbath ( see Acts 13:42-44) ALL BELIEVERS where required to be in the synagogue every sabbath

If the word of God ( moses of old) was being taught on any given sunday, the verse would read: Acts 15:21.... every sabbath day and FIRST DAY
---Francis on 10/27/11


"In Acts 15, exactly what was required of Gentile Christians?
"that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood." See verse 20,29>Acts 21:25
---josef on 10/28/11


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