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Early Church On The Trinity

Early Church Fathers on the Trinity-Part 11

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 ---Ruben on 10/28/11
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Warwick at least admits he's got it all wrong. Warwick says some trinitarians "have not thought it through. Others have received poor teaching on the subject." (Warwick 11/3/11)

But is Warwick referring to himself, Ruben or 'some other trinitarian'? Which trinitarian has received 'poor teaching' or 'hasn't thought it through'? If trinitarians believe the trinity is unfathomable, or as Warwick puts it- 'not comprehensible by human intellect alone', then who is to know whether Warwick or any other trinitarian has received 'poor teaching'? How does Warwick know he's got the trinity right and others are wrong if the trinity is incomprehensible?

The trinity is 'poor teaching' whoever teaches it. It is a false doctrine!
---David8318 on 11/4/11


Thank you Rhonda, I agree. The Apostles never taught a theology the likes of Warwick's as they too would have been accused of polytheism. In fact Paul preached to a group of non-Christian Athenians who worshipped an 'unknown god'- Acts 17:22-23.

Who knows if this unknown Athenian god was the same as Warwick's 'incomprehensible' mystery trinity deity? Who is to say?

It would probably have been better if I had said trinitarians need to sort their game out AND realise they can't fit the trinity into scripture. There should be no choice in the matter. The trinity must be dropped like a ticking time bomb (Rev.18:1-4).
---David8318 on 11/4/11


Warwick- "you worship what you do not know"- John 4:22.

Under scrutiny, time and again you reveal you are a follower of a man-made polytheist trinitarian religion which has no basis in scripture.

Jesus wasn't talking to himself, neither was he talking to another part of a trinitarian 'Godhead'. Jesus was talking to his Father- Jehovah God, the 'only true God'- John 17:1-3.

When confronted with your polytheist nonsense, you fall behind the 'mystery' banner. 'The nature, and substance of God is not comprehensible by human intellect alone.' That's not the issue. The issue is Jesus' relationship to God. A relationship you scripturally 'do not know'- only through your polytheist indoctrination.
---David8318 on 11/4/11


Warwick is a polytheist, promoting man-made Neo-platonic trinitarianism. The trinity is from pagan, polytheist Egypt and Babylon. It's doesn't take long for the likes of Warwick to reveal their polytheist bent.

When held under the spotlight of scripture, it can easily be discerned that the trinity indoctrinates people into polytheism.

For an individual such as Warwick who majors in pagan trinitarian philosophy, his use of any scripture against me is baseless.

The truth that Christ is not 'God' and that Christ prayed to his Father Jehovah keeps me and many other Christians 'free' from false doctrines such as the mystery pagan trinity- Jo.8:32.
---David8318 on 11/4/11


But if this Scribe was unaware of the trinity and his very salvation was dependent, not just on exercising faith in Jesus but, accepting him as part of a multi-personal God, why did our Savior not attempt to save him by teaching this monumentally new idea to this and other Jews?
---scott on 11/3/11

He did in places like Jhn 10:28-29 and others...
---Ruben on 11/4/11




Warwick, Your view of "only those in the inner circle" the privileged, closed shop can have full understanding of scripture smacks of Pharisaism.
Pharisee (set apart) only "they" knew the law and how to interpret it. This infuriated Jesus and he denounced them as "from your father the devil"
1Cor.2.14"....he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned".
Just ask me 'cause I'm God's Channel!
---1st_cliff on 11/3/11


\\And nowhere in scripture did Jesus nor the apostles tell us that our christian faith will be soley on books, nor is phrase Bible in it....
---Ruben on 11/3/11\\

Orthodoxy has NEVER claimed to be based on the Bible.

Rather, the Bible is based on Orthodoxy and cannot be properly understood outside of her.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/3/11


Rhonda, Interesting response.
"All scripture"??
****

thank you for thinking of me as having the "interesting response" however I cannot take credit my dear I'm simply the messenger who QUOTED GODS WORD

if you CHOOSE not to believe Holy Scripture and prefer ALL the other religious ideas you cited rather THAN ALL of Holy Word of GOD - GOD has given you free moral agency to do so
---Rhonda on 11/3/11


You trinitarians really need to sort your game out. Or perhaps realise you can't fit the trinity into scripture.
---David8318 on 11/3/11
*****

try as they may!! more than a half a dozen trinity definitions and yet Apostles never had an issue defining or explaining the trinity SIMPLY because they NEVER TAUGHT the pagan trinity

TRUTH IS Apostles only acknowledged The Father in Heaven and Christ in ALL their GREETINGS to the brethren
---Rhonda on 11/3/11


Rhonda, Interesting response.
"All scripture"??
Where do you draw the line as to what exactly is scripture?? The Apocrypha, Book of Mormon, the Vedas, the Koran???
How do you determine what "scripture" is?
Is it just simply what "you" believe? Or general consensus?
---1st_cliff on 11/3/11




David, the nature, and substance of God is not comprehensible by human intellect alone.

1 Corinthians 2:14 speaks of you "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You reject the Holy Spirit and do not even understand what Christians believe regarding the Trinity. Therefore what you write is foolishness.

That Christian have different views upon the Trinity, is to be expected. Some accept the reality and have not thought it through. Others have received poor teaching on the subject. That is common on any number of subjects within the Christian community.
---Warwick on 11/3/11


Ruben,

You said "They also don't beleive Jesus was the Son of God!"

I'm referring to the 1,500 year old Jewish understanding of God before Christ.

Was their God "one" or was he multi-personal? Did the Jews before Christ believe in a trinity?

You said "He did not have to [clarify the Scribes false unitarian belief because], there is only one God, as the trinitarians teach!"

But if this Scribe was unaware of the trinity and his very salvation was dependent, not just on exercising faith in Jesus but, accepting him as part of a multi-personal God, why did our Savior not attempt to save him by teaching this monumentally new idea to this and other Jews?
---scott on 11/3/11


Such is the confused morass of the trinity doctrine.

On one hand is the polytheist trinitarian Warwick saying, 'one spirit in three persons' who all 'talk' to eachother- Warwick's reasoning: why would we expect 'God the son' not to talk to 'God the Father'.

And on the otherhand is Ruben saying 'there is only one God, as the trinitarians teach!'

Sorry to burst your bubble Ruben, but trinitarians are not united in their understanding of the pagan trinity dogma. You may say there is only 'one God', but many trinitarians believe there are 'God's' within the trinity 'godhead' who talk to eachother- John 17:1-3.

You trinitarians really need to sort your game out. Or perhaps realise you can't fit the trinity into scripture.
---David8318 on 11/3/11


Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" Yet it is glibly used here as though it was....is this not an attempt to mislead?????
---1st_cliff on 11/2/11


And nowhere in scripture did Jesus nor the apostles tell us that our christian faith will be soley on books, nor is phrase Bible in it....
---Ruben on 11/3/11


The Early Church is Acts 2 v 38.

The Man - made apostate trinity Didn't exist then. It did later ( which Is here, Rev.17 v's 4 - 6 beginning with the rcc ) when the devil 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 with the roman rulers nero etc went in to kill off The Acts 2 v 38 Early Church Saints. So the devil could have his churches, beginning with the ecc.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/3/11


Ruben, if you mean the early leaders in the Christian church, they followed the great commission from Christ, baptizing the parishoners in the Name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19.
---Eloy on 11/3/11


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Even tho they ( the Man - made trin rcc Rev.17 v's 4 - 6 ) to kill off some of The Early Acts 2 v 38 Church Saints, But Not All Thank God. We are still alive'n well today & carrying on Acts 2 v 38. The One God Jesus name Church of The Living God.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/3/11


bible ...a collection of 66 "books" bound together (a recent innovation)
To question any one of them has no relation to the rest of them!
****

if you do not believe ALL Scripture was inspired then yes however....

2Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...

easy to understand why pagan trinity worshipers idolize the teachings of their false ministers who openly REJECT DISMISS and IGNORE EVERY WORD of GOD Luke 4:4

if they believed ALL Scripture was inspired by GOD then they would ONLY worship The Father in Heaven and HIS SON Christ knowing Christ and Apostles honored no "other" gods 1Corin 8:6
---Rhonda on 11/3/11


scott* in "one God". One God with a personal name (YHWH- Jehovah) recorded in the OT about 7,000 times.

They also don't beleive Jesus was the Son of God!

scott* Question(s):

1. Why did Jesus reinforce this man's, centuries old belief without (trinitarian) clarification or adjustment?

He did not have to, there is only one God, as the trinitarians teach!


scott* 2. Why did Jesus feel that this man had answered "wisely" if, in fact, his monotheistic, unitarian view of God was false?

Answer above!

3.

scott* ...Why would Christ, the Savior, not reveal this life-saving knowledge when the Shema' was being discussed?

Again there is only one God..
---Ruben on 11/3/11


Rocky, Get right. Sinners with sinuous tongues foolishly bore their same false witness, as you do, to Christ.
--Eloy 11/2/11
I showed you were wrong to attack another person so you turn on me with another vicious personal attack. As I said before, you only again condemn yourself and prove that it is you that is not following Christ.
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
---Rocky on 11/3/11


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Scott and David you have cut yourselves off from the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, He who teaches and reminds John 14:26, Speaks to us and guides us into all truth 16:13, glorifies Jesus and reveals truth to us 16:14, who gives us power Acts 1:8, speaks through us 4:31, gives us Spiritual gifts, I Corinthians 12: 4-11.

Therefore 1 Corinthians 2:14 speaks of you "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You have made yourselves Spiritually blind and cannot understand the things of God, as they are "spiritually discerned."

But you don't have to be.
---Warwick on 11/3/11


Mica, The bible is not "a" book and never has been, but it is a collection of 66 "books" bound together (a recent innovation)
To question any one of them has no relation to the rest of them!
If you reject a newspaper columnist do you chuck the entire newspaper???
---1st_cliff on 11/3/11


Rocky, Get right. Sinners with sinuous tongues foolishly bore their same false witness, as you do, to Christ.
---Eloy on 11/2/11


1stcliff, You don't believe what's written in the Bible.
You also seem not to believe what isn't written in the Bible.
What do you believe?
---micha9344 on 11/2/11


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1st Cliff: You are right that it is not written that way. However, we are told about all three, and little guidance is given as to their relationship.

The are some points where there is something definite, but these are rare. For example, you could take John 8:58 (not always taken, but it can be taken as a claim by Jesus to be God). The spirit has far fewer direct comments.

I don't think God needs us to know His exact 'division'/'unity' that exactly. We are told to believe in Him. Beyond that, each has his/her view.
---Peter on 11/2/11


Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" Yet it is glibly used here as though it was....is this not an attempt to mislead?????
---1st_cliff on 11/2/11


Mark 12:28-30- (2)

Before Christ, the Jews believed exclusively in "one God". One God with a personal name (YHWH- Jehovah) recorded in the OT about 7,000 times.

Question(s):

1. Why did Jesus reinforce this man's, centuries old belief without (trinitarian) clarification or adjustment?

2. Why did Jesus feel that this man had answered "wisely" if, in fact, his monotheistic, unitarian view of God was false?

3. If belief in a three-in-one God is required for salvation, as trinitarians suggest and the Creed of 381, Constantinople, states...

...Why would Christ, the Savior, not reveal this life-saving knowledge when the Shema' was being discussed?
---scott on 11/2/11


Warwick is unable to conceal his poytheist trinitarian belief:

'There are not 3 spirit Gods but one spirit in three persons.'

'Being part of the Godhead why would you expect He would not speak to the Father?'

What do these 'three persons' of the trinity do... they talk to eachother! So as confirmed by Warwick, 'God the son' (Jesus) is not talking to himself but to 'God the Father'.

Two God's talking to eachother- really!? Polytheism is at the heart of trinitarianism.
---David8318 on 11/2/11


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Mark 12:28-30- (1)

Warwick,

When asked by the Scribes (Mark 12:28-30) what the greatest two commandments were, Jesus answers by citing the Jewish Shema (Deut 6:4):

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God,
[Deut 6:4= Jehovah] the Lord is one." ASV

32, 33- "The scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God, and there is none other but he...And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and...strength..."

34 "And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly [wisely NKJ, NIV, ESV] , he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God."

Continued
---scott on 11/2/11


Blind eisegesis* - Warwick

Warwick cites John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth".

Simple. Clear. However, when Warwick says "Therefore", we know we are in for fun:

"Therefore God being spirit, not flesh, has no mass, nor matter and cannot be divided. There are not 3 spirit Gods but one spirit in three persons. Who is the true God? God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit." Warwick

Wow. What in John 1:14 says anything that Warwick has read into this simple verse?


* "Reading into the text."
---scott on 11/2/11


Reuben, do remember that Tertullian should be approached with caution, even more so that Origen.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/2/11


Warwick believes I speak 'nonsense'? Listen to what Warwick believes- 'There are not 3 spirit Gods but one spirit in three persons.'

So there are 'three persons' in Warwick's trinity of God's. This is polytheism. Warwick's polytheism is confirmed by his understanding of Hebrews chapters 1 and 2, where again he believes there are (at least) 2 God's.

I've supported my belief through scripture- John 17:1-3, which quite frankly blows Warwick's ridiculous polytheist trinitarian argument out of the water.

Is Warwick's trinity mute? Yes and very confused because Warwick shows that in his trinity of 'persons'- 'God the son' must be 'granted authority' and be 'given' persons- Jo.17:1, 2. Did 'God the son' forget he was God?
---David8318 on 11/2/11


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--Warwick 11/2/11
Rocky if God already had a body why was a body prepeared for Him?
First, I never said God already had a body. PLEASE DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
Second, I never read in the Bible that a body was prepared for God the Father.
Do you imagine God is three separate physical persons?
No. Physical implies they all have bodies which they don't.
If God had a body of physical substance could either of these Scriptures be correct?
Again I never said he had a body, your questions are meaningless. However, I wouldn't put it beyond God's power to have a physical body and yet do everything he could as spirit only. Why do you?
---Rocky on 11/2/11


David8318* Ruben- please tell us your source material for your 'quotes' from Tertullian and Irenaeus.

Tertullian:

Against Praxeus Cahpter 2

Webelieve that there is one only God, but under the following dispensationthat this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost.

Your quote is from Chapter 9
---Ruben on 11/2/11


'If the Son did not blush to refer the knowledge of that day to the Father (Mark 13:32). Our Savior used this expression that we might learn from him that the Father is over all, for 'The Father is greater than I.''- Irenaeus.

- The Church of the First Three Centuries, Dr A Lamson.
---David8318 on 10/31/11


For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself,(.Against Heresies 3:19:2-3)
---Ruben on 11/2/11


David I believe I do know what anthropomorphism means, and therefore use it correctly. I wrote "JW's have a anthropomorphic view of God, almost imagining Him a superman." You say the word means "Anthropomorphism (Greek, 'man-form') is the attributing of human characteristics to a nonhuman subject", just as I used it.

In reality David we believe Jesus, as to His flesh is man, as Scripture says and as to His spirit is God, again as Scripture says.

"When the Messiah came He said "...a body you prepared for me" Hebrews 10:5. If the Messiah already had a body why did He need another?
---Warwick on 11/2/11


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Rocky if God already had a body why was a body prepeared for Him?

Do you imagine God is three separate physical persons? If God was such a being wouldn't that limit Him to being in one place at a time. Is God so limited?

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there, if I make my bed in the depths, you are there..." Psalm 139:7,8

"Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD" Jeremiah 23:24.

If God had a body of physical substance could either of these Scriptures be correct?
---Warwick on 11/2/11


David, if all else fails read Scripture. Toss the WTS mistranslation and read the truth.

Again you bring up this nonsense.

Being part of the Godhead why would you expect He would not speak to the Father? Are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit mute?

Hebrews chapter 1 clearly shows Jesus is God the Son. However Chapter 2 and other Scriptures (e.g John 13:1-20, Mark 10:45) show he was the ultimate servant.

Philippians 2:6,7 says it perfectly "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

Note He made Himself nothing.
---Warwick on 11/2/11


Rocky, I don't know how familiar you are with Eloy's postings, but many times on these blogs he has clearly confused himself with God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/2/11


Eloy 11/2/11
David, by you rejecting Christ as God Almighty, you are antiChrist and antiGod.
That is a lie. Even if David were wrong, your vicious attack on him, another Christian, only condemns yourself and proves it is you that is not following Christ.
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
---Rocky on 11/2/11


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--Warwiick 11/2/11
Therefore God being spirit, not flesh, has no mass, nor matter and cannot be divided
1)Where is it written that spirit has no mass and cannot be divided?
2)Nothing in that sentence says much less proves that there cannot be 3 separate beings.
There are not 3 spirit Gods but one spirit in three persons.
No, there are 3 separate spirits of the same substance with common purpose, knowledge, and wisdom.
Who is the true God
God the Father, unless you are talking about his Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Bible includes so many clear references to Them individually that it is impossible to rationally consider Them all as one and the same being. Impossible.
---Rocky on 11/2/11


David, by you rejecting Christ as God Almighty, you are antiChrist and antiGod. There are not two nor three God's, but only one. Currently, Christ's Holy Spirit ministers around the world.
---Eloy on 11/2/11


It appears Warwick does not understand what 'anthropomorphic' means. The Bible uses anthropomorphisms in its description of God. Yes 'God is a Spirit,' so the Bible uses figures of speech, such as similes, metaphors, and anthropomorphisms to help us comprehend Gods might, majesty, and activities.

Anthropomorphism (Greek, 'man-form') is the attributing of human characteristics to a nonhuman subject:

'And I will stretch out my hand...'- Exodus 3:20 (KJV)

'The tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God'- Exodus 31:18 (NIV)

'Do you have an arm like God's'- Job 40:9 (NIV)

Trinitarians go far beyond anthropomorphisms as they believe Jesus is 'fully God'. This is antichrist because 'God is a Spirit'- 1 Jo.4:2,3.
---David8318 on 11/2/11


'Who is the true God?' According to Warwick- 'God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.' Apparently, all three are one, the 'one true God'.

So Jesus at John 17:1-3 is praying to... himself, according to Warwick. But at John 17:1,2 Jesus is asking 'God' for 'authority' to 'give eternal life' to people 'God' has granted to him!

Why would God grant authority to Himself if He's already got it? Why would God pray to be given the authority to give eternal life if he already had the authority to do so? Who is Jesus praying to... himself!?

Rather than believe the trinity dogma which has Jesus suffering from a form of schizophrenia, the truth is Jesus is praying to his Father- Jehovah, asking for this authority.
---David8318 on 11/2/11


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Scott your cultic indoctrination blinds you to the reality God is spirit, not flesh John 4:24. JW's have a anthropomorphic view of God, almost imagining Him a superman.

When the Messiah came He said "...a body you prepared for me" Hebrews 10:5. Obviously prior to that He had no body.

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth" John 1:14

Therefore God being spirit, not flesh, has no mass, nor matter and cannot be divided. There are not 3 spirit Gods but one spirit in three persons.

Who is the true God? God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Can you agree? No!
---Warwick on 11/2/11


Warwick cites John 10:28, to support his belief that Jesus is 'the true God' because Jesus 'gives eternal life'.

John 17:1-3 clarifies the understanding.

John 17:1,2- 'After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed, 'Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.' (NIV)

So 'the true God' (Jehovah) 'grants' Jesus the authority to 'give eternal life' to people God has 'given him'.

Jesus 'gives eternal life' because it is first granted to him by 'the true God' Jehovah. Should Jesus not already have it if he were the 'true God'?
---David8318 on 11/2/11


Warwick, What is missing in your explanation are the words "You are" the god of me... Which leads me to believe that it was a colloquialism and as such not considered blasphemy!
Jesus showed him the holes in His hands and expected a "reaction"!
Jesus called His Father "My God and your God"
---1st_cliff on 11/2/11


Cliff, John 20:28 reads "Thomas answered him, My Lord and my God! Greek "ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou," "The Lord of me, and the God of me."

As you can see Thomas said this in answer to Jesus. To suggest that Thomas called Jesus "The Lord of me and the God of me" as some throw away blasphemy is not credible.

Thomas blasphemed, and Jesus in whom there is not sin accepted blasphemy?
---Warwick on 11/1/11


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Warwick, In all seriousness, suppose I meet you in person and you're not at all what I had imagined, you say "Hi I'm Warwick" and I say "Oh my god"
Am I guilty of calling you my god????
It doesn't say specifically that Thomas saw Jesus die,but in all likelihood he did!
You imagine that he would not be "awestruck"?
---1st_cliff on 11/1/11


Try, try again...

Warwick,

The question was "Who is the "only true God" according to Jesus Christ at John 17:3?.
---scott on 11/1/11


scott* "Christianity inherited the monotheism of Israel, but gradually developed it by the elaboration of the doctrine of the Trinity." p. 619, v. 6, 1941, Encyclopedia Americana.

And the Encyclopedia Americana also says "God "exists in Three Persons... [and] is One in 'substance'," pp (116-117)


scott* The dogma of the Trinity is of relatively recent date. There is no reference to it in the Old Testament.

Because it was only partially revealed and came to light in the NT

scott * "It is incontestable that the [Trinity] doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone." The Encyclopedia of Religion,

Where does the Bible tells us it stands alone?
---Ruben on 11/1/11


Nicea 325- Did you know?

"In 325 the Council of Nicaea declared that those who were unmarried at ordination could not marry afterward..."

The Christian Book of Why, John McCollister (Lutheran minister and university professor), 1983, p. 280. Also p. 660 f.n., Will Durant, The Story of Civilization, vol. 3, Simon & Schuster, 1944.

"...in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron, Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats..." 1 Tim 1-3 NIV

"You will know them by their fruits." Matt. 7:16
---scott on 11/1/11


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Scott, John 10:28 Jesus says "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

I will leave you to work it out. If you can't let me know and I will explain it.
---Warwick on 11/1/11


//The question was "Who is the "only true God" according to Jesus Christ at John 17:3?."//
We don't need (men) to tell us something God already ---said.
God is Spirit-He Spoke-Words--they came out of His mouth.
Read the whole chapter over and over if you must.

Answer: Immanuel-God with us.

Jn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, [whom thou hast sent].

[whom thous hast sent]
Sent?
Is55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth [out of my mouth: it] shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto [I sent it].
[I sent it]

One God.
Different dimension.
---char on 11/1/11


"Jesus was obviously referring to the one and only true God." Warwick

The question was "Who is the "only true God" according to Jesus Christ at John 17:3?."

And you answer- it is "the only true God."

So if you knew the man at the bus stop and I asked you 'who he was', you would reply- "It is the man at the bus stop?"

Fascinating stuff.

(BTW re "true God"- Did you not recently accused me of conjuring this term up as part of my tortured theology...?)
---scott on 10/31/11


Nicean Minority- (3)

The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire-
Gibbon, p. 374, Dell (Laurel edition).

"A large majority of the bishops of Asia appeared to support or favor his [Arius'] cause, and their measures were conducted by Eusebius of Caesarea, the most learned of the Christian prelates."


(Trinitarian) Eerdman's Handbook to the History of Christianity-
1977, pp. 112-113 admits:

"Before the Council of Nicaea (A D 325) all theologians viewed the Son as in one way or another subordinate to the Father." - also found on p. 114 in the revised 1990 ed. of The History of Christianity, Lion Publishing.
---scott on 10/31/11


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Scott you have been busy cutting and pasting from WTS fool the Christians programs.

You prefer the trawlings of secondary sources but Scripture tells the truth!

For example John 20:28 plainly has Thomas addressing Jesus as "My Lord and my God" Greek "ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou," "The Lord of me, and the God of me."

Dipping into secondary sources Clarke says the meaning is: "my Lord whose disciple I have so long been, and thou art my God, henceforth the object of my religious adoration." Remember it was only in 1970 that the WTS was telling its followers to "worship" Jesus. Who changed?

Barnes, Gill, Wesley, Schofield, and Bullinger et al concur with Clarke.
---Warwick on 10/31/11


Nicean Minority- (1)

Encyclopedia Britannica- pp. 410-411, v. 16, 14th ed.

"[The] majority eventually acquiesced in the ruling of the Alexandrians [trinitarians], yet this result was due ... partly to the pressure of the imperial will. .... We are compelled to the conclusion that in this point, the voting was no criterion of the inward convictions of the council. Accordingly...the Caesarean creed should be modified by the insertion of the Alexandrian passwords ... and by the deletion of certain portions. That he appreciated the import of these alterations, or realized that his revision was virtually the proclamation of a new doctrine [Trinity], is scarcely probable..."

Continued
---scott on 10/31/11


Nicean Minority- (2)

Continued-

Encyclopedia Britannica- pp. 410-411, v. 16, 14th ed.

"...The creed thus evolved by an artificial unity was no ratification of peace: in fact, it paved the way for a struggle which convulsed the whole empire. For it was the proclamation of the Nicene Creed that first opened the eyes of many bishops to the significance of the problem there treated, and its explanation led the Church to force herself ... into compliance with those principles, annunciated at Nicaea, to which in the year 325, she had pledged herself without genuine assent."
---scott on 10/31/11


Early Church (3)

"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the NT, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the OT: `Hear, O Israel: The Lord [Jehovah] our God is one Lord.' Deut. 6:4...

... The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies .... It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons." The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropedia, vol. 11, p. 928.

"In the NT there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity." p. 344, An Encyclopedia of Religion, 1945.
---scott on 10/31/11


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Ruben- please tell us your source material for your 'quotes' from Tertullian and Irenaeus.

Here are others:

'The Father is different from the Son, as he is greater, as he who begets is different from him who is begotten, he who sends, different from him who is sent... Christ does nothing except by the will of the Father, having received all power from him. There was a time when the Son was not.'- Tertullian

'If the Son did not blush to refer the knowledge of that day to the Father (Mark 13:32). Our Savior used this expression that we might learn from him that the Father is over all, for 'The Father is greater than I.''- Irenaeus.

- The Church of the First Three Centuries, Dr A Lamson.
---David8318 on 10/31/11


Early Church (2)

"Christianity inherited the monotheism of Israel, but gradually developed it by the elaboration of the doctrine of the Trinity." p. 619, v. 6, 1941, Encyclopedia Americana.

"The dogma of the Trinity is of relatively recent date. There is no reference to it in the Old Testament...One can even say that it is a conception foreign to primitive [earliest] Christianity." Professor Louis Reau of the Sorbonne, Iconographie de l' Art Chretien, v. 2, Book 1

"It is incontestable that the [Trinity] doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone." The Encyclopedia of Religion, 1987, vol 15, p. 54.
---scott on 10/31/11


scott * Early Church (1)

"It seems unquestionable that the revelation of the mystery of the Trinity was not made to the Jews." Dictionnaire de Theologie Catholique (Dictionary of Catholic Theology).

Jews didn't Believe in Jesus as the Messiah nor the Son of God more or less the Trinity!

scott * "From the very beginning, of course, Christians not only believed in God in the sense in which the Jews did, but they also believed in Jesus Christ." A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Bernard Lohse, p. 38, 1985, Fortress Press.

Of course, Christians believe who Jesus was, while the Jews did not.
---Ruben on 10/31/11


Early Church (1)

"It seems unquestionable that the revelation of the mystery of the Trinity was not made to the Jews." Dictionnaire de Theologie Catholique (Dictionary of Catholic Theology).

"From the very beginning, of course, Christians not only believed in God in the sense in which the Jews did, but they also believed in Jesus Christ." A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Bernard Lohse, p. 38, 1985, Fortress Press.

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian .... It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the NT [New Testament] and other early Christian writings." - Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Hastings.
---scott on 10/31/11


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"Jesus was obviously referring to the one and only true God." Warwick

The question was "Who is the "only true God" according to Jesus Christ at John 17:3?."

And you answer- it is "the only true God."

So if you knew the man at the bus stop and I asked you 'who he was', you would reply- "It is the man at the bus stop?"

Fascinating stuff.

(BTW re "true God"- Did you not recently accused me of conjuring this term up as part of my tortured theology...?)
---scott on 10/31/11


Scott, Jesus was obviously referring to the one and only true God. And He being God the Son, God the Creator, God the Redeemer, God the Saviour, God the Alpha and the Omega, and last of all but not least of all, the God (ho Theos) is in a unique position to know there is only one true God.

Accept no WTS puny substitutes!
---Warwick on 10/31/11


Peter the Trinity is not something that man dreamed up, but a formalization of what Scripture says. "Trinity' is a word which aptly describes what God's word says.
---Warwick on 10/31/11


Asleep at the wheel again Scott?
---Warwick on 10/30/11


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"Strange Question"- Warwick

Warwick, who is the "only true God" according to Jesus Christ at John 17:3?
---scott on 10/29/11


Scott with his ZZZ.

Note how Scott, now that's he's been caught out in a lie and incompetent research, resorts to mocking.
---Marc on 10/29/11


Scott writes ''The decisions of Nicaea were really the work of a minority''

I can only suppose you're talking about the vote regarding whether Christ is God, as in the Trinitarian theology, or a god, as in Arius' view. However, historical records demonstrate that of the 300 odd who attended Nicaea, only 2 voted FOR Arius' heresy.

And you call that a minority. Is that another convenient ignoring of the truth?
---Marc on 10/29/11


Like everyone else, we are not able to understand how God is. The Trinity, as far as I can tell, was developed by the Church Fathers slowly, as the tried to find a way to fit all that is said in the Scriptures into a proper creed.

The Nicene Creed, AD325, clearly incorporates the Trinity, as it states that we believe in all three. Before that, I can't say
---Peter on 10/29/11


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Scott, huh?
---Eloy on 10/29/11


rcc's "fathers" on trinity is irrelevant for TRUE Believers of Christ who simply worship The Father in Heaven through our high priest Christ

True Believers are instructed to call no man FATHER ...Christ NEVER referred to himself as "father" ...Apostles NEVER referred to themselves, each other, or ANY mortal man as "father"

Holy Scripture does not TEACH trinity ..MOTHER rcc (REV 17) has MANY followers - Christ said MANY would come in HIS name to DECEIVE - believe in trinity LIE one simply worships and serves rcc in spirit

Christ stated his church Matt 16:18 would be a LITTLE flock Luke 12:32

whatever rcc believes about HER trinity is truly irrelevant for TRUE BELIEVERS Rev 18:4
---Rhonda on 10/30/11


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
---scott on 10/28/11


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