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Salvation If We Sin

Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus is able to save us to the utmost since he lives to intercede for us. Does that mean we will not lose our salvation if we sin?

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 ---lee1538 on 11/1/11
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If Isaiah was talking about himself only, why would Paul quote this for himself, and then preach to the Gentiles?
--kathr4453 11/7/11
Just look at verses preceding Isa49:6:
Isa 49:1 The LORD hath called me from the womb...
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword...
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified...
Isa 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment...
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant...
If you think hes talking about Israel you must be smoking some powerful dope.
---Rocky on 11/7/11


kathr4453, it appears I misunderstood your use of the term "predestined" before. Thank you for the clarification.
To clarify further, when you now write "whosoever will", do you believe then in the concept of "free will", that we are all free to choose to follow Jesus or not? This is the natural antithesis of predestination, I just ask because there are so many gradients of belief.
We seem to have many other beliefs in common.
I hope lee will answer the questions on predestination as I am interested to learn how they reconcile predestination with all the Biblical verses about choice, works, and repentance. Indeed with the purpose of Christ's mission and the world even.
---Rocky on 11/7/11


Francis //God covenant was not just with the priests and prophets. It was with a NATION
and anyone of any other nation could have entered into that same covenant it was just as today, an open covenant
---
It is true that while God made covenants with Israel alone, only the New Covenant included anyone who would believe in Jesus as Lord & Savior.

The Old Covenant (i.e. the 10 commandments=Exodus 34:28) was only with the Jewish nation and only the Jews and proselytes could be part of that covenant upon circumcision.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11


Rocky, I guess you are one of the few here who don't know that I disagree with LeeJ's Calvinism.

I have stated many times I believe in whosoever will.

And I believe predestined means Jesus and THE Church/His Body were predestined. But whosoever believes in Him and received Him are predestined to be conformed to His Image.

I do not believe in predestined or double predestination, meaning God elected some to Heaven and elected the rest to hell.

God KNEW before He ever created man, that man would sin. Jesus was for-ordained before the foundation of the world to die and rise again, to take away sin ONCE AND FOR ALL.

SIN was in the universe before Adam/Eve fell.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


kathr4453, Do you agree with lee1538 that "Every object and event is under his control, and in accordance with his eternal plan."
kathr4453 and lee1538:
Is salvation only for the elect or everyone?
Is nobody responsible for their own choice to accept or reject God?
Why was free-will preached by the early church fathers and the system of thought denying it not introduced until almost 400AD?
-- Justin Martyr 160AD
Unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they're not responsible for their actions.
-- Clement of Alexandria 195AD
We have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.
Why did Jesus spend so much time preaching if everything is predestined?
---Rocky on 11/7/11




God covenant was not just with the priests and prophets. It was with a NATION
and anyone of any other nation could have entered into that same covenant it was just as today, an open covenant
---Francis on 11/7/11


Kathr4453 11/6/11
--If we are predestined, what is the purpose of life on Earth? -----Rocky on 11/7/11


If Isaiah was talking about himself only, why would Paul quote this for himself, and then preach to the Gentiles?

Adam/Eve were NOT predestined to be holy and blameless before Him, or predestined to be conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ.

THE CHURCH IS! HIS BODY IS. The NEW CREATURE is.

And the New Creature is Crucified to this world and the world to him. We are no longer part of this EARTHLY WORLDLY system.

We died to the things of this world when we were crucified with Christ.

God Predetermined before hand that in the NEW Heaven and earth, NO EVIL will enter in.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


---Rocky on 11/7/11
If we're predestined, what's the purpose of life on Earth? If God already decided, why even have an Earth?
--lee1538 11/7/11
What is the chief end of man?
A Mans chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

Are you saying that God's purpose in creating Earth, indeed the Universe, was for his own glory? Why does God want or need to glorify Himself? And to whom? To us that are nothing but His robots?
Every object and event is under his control, and is in accordance with his eternal plan.
That sounds like a scientific approach, everything happens according to ordered laws of the universe. There's no free will.
---Rocky on 11/7/11


francis//THE ENTIRE NATION of Israel was choosen to be a light to the gentiles. Not Just the prophets and priests.

The light they were to bear was the gospel of Christ, for "the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" Romans 1:16

Adventists still insist, contrary to scripture, that obedience to the law is the path to righteousness, not acknowledging the fact that the believers righteousness is in Christ (Romans 1:17, 3:22)
---lee1538 on 11/7/11


--kathr 11/7/11
IF perhaps you would stick to reading scripture rather than trying to discredit me,
Chirstan was addressing the issues, unlike you who use an entire post for a derogatory personal attack.
it shows how totally ignorant you are of scripture,
Christan cited scripture in his post, yours is the one without any. If Christan is wrong, show how rather than make vague attacks. And as I posted earlier, I did not see how the scriptures you subsequently posted refuted anything Christan wrote. Perhaps you should try again, without the histrionics.
You are insulting the very Christ in me
If anything, you are doing that yourself.
---Rocky on 11/7/11




THE ENTIRE NATION of Israel was choosen to be a light to the gentiles. Not Just the prophets and priests.

Everyone had to make a contribution in one way or the other. Those who did not serve in the temples supported the temple with tithes and offerings.

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

the lifestyle of Every israelite was to be a reflexion of God. Any one who did not exemplify God was disciplined
---francis on 11/7/11


//If we are predestined, what is the purpose of life on Earth? If God has already decided, why even have an Earth?
---Rocky on 11/7/11

Q 1 What is the chief end of man?

A Mans chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

Eph. 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The affirmation here is not merely that God accomplishes the designs of salvation according to the counsel of his own will, but that he does everything. His agency is not confined to one thing, or to one class of objects. Every object and event is under his control, and is in accordance with his eternal plan.

---lee1538 on 11/7/11


Kathr4453 11/6/11
God's Purpose is that we have been predestined to be HOLY and without blame before Him in Love
If we are predestined, what is the purpose of life on Earth? If God has already decided, why even have an Earth?
---Rocky on 11/7/11


Kathr, it is funny that you quote passages without giving any explanation for them, then turn around and say Christan hate them. With no reason why you say he does, just your own uncontrolable mouth speaking. If you gave an explanation to what you read, then maybe you would make some sense.
You gave Acts 14:46-48 and when you got to verse (48), you yourself acknowledge what Christan said,
"And as many as had been appointed (ordained) to eternal life believed"
Who believed? The whole of the Gentiles? No, only those who had been appointed or ordained to eternal life. Hello? Don't you realize you were acknowledging Christan was correct? And then you rebuked him, for been right. You are going banana's.
---Mark_V. on 11/7/11


--You are insulting the very Christ in me...not me.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


AMEN!
---CraigA on 11/7/11


Christ intercedes to help us obey because ALL THINGS are possible through HIM Matt 19:26 Christ helps those who actively seek to keep his commandments and obey HIM

Apostles spoke of their struggles with sin a vast contrast to today's "christian" who are TAUGHT to mock the sacrifice of Christ and believe they are sinless

false christianity LIES - magically "saved" in an instant nothing else to do - pure deception CONTRADICTS Holy Scripture that describes salvation as a race to strive for mastery receiving FUTURE prize of salvation 1Corin 9:24-27 even Apostles understood they could be castaway from salvation

Heb 10:26 there are no more sacrifices for those who continue to live in sin
---Rhonda on 11/7/11


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kathr4453 11/7/11
Here's the PROOF that Christan calls God's word a LIE:I REBUKE YOU CHRISTAN!
How are the scriptures you quoted proof that Chritan calls God's word a lie? I don't see it at all.
Infact, how does any of your post refute Christan's point that specific Israelites and not all of Israel were His messengers? In Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah was clearly talking about himself when he wrote that God said "I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles." Obviously a specific Isrealite.
---Rocky on 11/7/11


Christan HATES this verse because it refutes CALVINISM putred lies.
Isaiah 49:5-7
5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


Here's the PROOF that Christan calls God's word a LIE:I REBUKE YOU CHRISTAN!

Acts 13:46-48
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. A direct QUOTE from Isaiah 49:6

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


Christan, I really DO love it when you spew up all your hatred for anything I say, because it shows how totally ignorant you are of scripture, and it shows others how UNCREDIBLE you are, and how underwhelmed we all are with your posts.

IF perhaps you would stick to reading scripture rather than trying to discredit me, you wouldn't look so bad when rebuked.

I asked you once before BE CAREFUL how you address others in the Body of Christ. You are insulting the very Christ in me...not me.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


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While it was the will of God that light to the Gentiles come out of Israel, that light was Christ Jesus who appointed other Jews as His disciples to spread the good news of the Gospel. That good news was to everyone who would call upon the name of the law.

But that does not mean that Gentile believers had to come under the law given only to the nation of Israel, expecially those laws that distinguished Israel from other nations, things like the Levitical dietary laws, observance of the Sabbath, circumcision, etc.
---lee1538 on 11/6/11


"God spoke to Israel because Israel was HIS MESSENGERS to the rest of the world. A Light to the Gentiles."

Really? Adding lies over lies does not equate truth. The prophets (yes, they were Jews) were the messengers of God, not the whole nation of Israel as you implied. God destroyed Israelites at the base of Mt Sinai, not to mention 70,000 Jews in 2 Samuel 24:15. Why would God destroy His "Light to the Gentiles"? Where's this verse in the Scripture to support your assumption?

You have this habit to imply everyone of Israel are God's beloved. Truth be told, only those justified by faith, including the Gentiles are God's beloved. And not everyone of Israel were and are justified by faith.
---christan on 11/6/11


Now francis, I not saying you can hear God.
But, according to the scriptures, things should be clear to you.
---TheSeg on 11/6/11
this is in reference to what exactly? I have no idea what you are referring to or how this fits into anything I say
---Francis on 11/6/11


Spend the time rather on your part and duties in the house of God, His temple rather
than on justifying men, telling them that they have a limitless allowance of sinning,
as if sinning is a privilege!

Read rather, Hebrews 10:21_39
---Nana on 11/6/11


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//And since God's Purpose is that we have been predestined to be HOLY and without blame before Him in Love
----
True -
Ro 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

But also true -

Eph 1:11-12 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
---lee1538 on 11/6/11


//First you claim that the entire Ten Commandment Law was given only to Israel at Mt. Sinai, and then assert that Christians MAY be bound by nine of them. Which is it?

The church is under the New Covenant and there is no requirement therein that commands observance of the 4th commandment.

Sorry Legalist Jerry but the righteousness live by faith-Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:10

However if you do not have Jesus in your life, then you really need the law for if you observe all the law all the time, you will merit eternal life.
---lee1538 on 11/6/11


Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Now francis, I not saying you can hear God.
But, according to the scriptures, things should be clear to you.
---TheSeg on 11/6/11


---christan on 11/6/11
Yes God did use Moses to speak to israel. But God spoke the ten commandments directly israel.

Deuteronomy 5:4 The LORD TALKED WITH YOU face to face Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD SPAKE UNTO ALL YOUR ASSEMBLY

Deuteronomy 4:12 AND THE LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU..YE HEARD THE VOICE.. YE HEARD A VOICE.. And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU..HE COMMANDMED YOU

now this is where God spoke to Moses to speak to the people:
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD COMMANDED ME..TO TEACH YOU

So what we have is God speaking the 10 commandments directly to israel. Then god speaking to Moses alone some other laws which Moses then taught iisrael.
---francis on 11/6/11


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Well, first of all, God chastens His sons in order to partake of HIS Holiness..Heb 12 And since God's Purpose is that we have been predestined to be HOLY and without blame before Him in Love, I would say here this is the correct interpretation of predestination.

So my friends the proof is in the pudding. ARE you being chastened to partake of God HOLINESS?? If not, you are not a son, but an illigitimate one at that, no matter how many TULIPS you eat.


And if you teach predestination without the above FACTS you are a false teacher who only "tip-toes" through the TULIPS and Not God's word....ALL of it!
---kathr453 on 11/6/11


Now lets face facts. NO ONE was ever Holy but God. Not even Adam & Eve. And no ELECT??? was ever Holy before His New Birth either.

AND EVERY SINGLE PERSON God accepts into the Family WILL BE CHASTENED. Why, because no one, no matter how "elect" one believes himself to be, IS HOLY.

We "by faith" become partakers of HIS HOLINESS....THROUGH HIS PROMISE"S" plural 2nd Peter 1.

So I would encourage all smug TULIP SNIFFERS to really understand WHAT we have been predestined to become...THAT IS--ANS:"being Conformed to His Image".
---kathr453 on 11/6/11


BUT in these last days, God has spoken to us through His Son.

In teh OT God Spoke through Prophets and angels. NOT TODAY.

Does that make God's WORD better? Since God speaks to our heart directly through His Son TODAY proves no one was indwelt with Christ in them in the OT.

Moses recorded Genesis and told us God created the world in 6 days.

God spoke to Israel because Israel was HIS MESSENGERS to the rest of the world. A Light to the Gentiles.

There would be no NT without the foundation of the Old.
---kathr4453 on 11/6/11


Francis & Micah9344, you keep showing verses that does not say God spoke "in person" to Israel like He did with Moses. Choosing to skip a verse or two to deceive is dangerous. Show the verse that God spoke to Israel when the ten commandments was given.

This are the two verses you skipped in Exodus 20:18, "And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off." and then verse 22, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven."

It was through Moses that God spoke to Israel.
---christan on 11/6/11


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Lee: "While we can see 9 of the 10 the commandments in the New covennat"

Please provide a scripture that shows a change in the law together with the words "new covenant". You might also note that the entire New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Heb 8:8).

First you claim that the entire Ten Commandment Law was given only to Israel at Mt. Sinai, and then assert that Christians MAY be bound by nine of them. Which is it? Were not non-jews bound by the commandments before the incarnation of Christ?

Jesus wrote that the Sabbath was established at creation. He claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath. He and all the disciples kept the Sabbath. Do you think that He was lying.
---jerry6593 on 11/6/11


Francis //2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

The entanglement that the writer speaks of in context speaks of going back the previous degenerative lifestyle.

The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire. (2:22)

However, the genuine Christian having been born of God's Spirit, would have problems going back to a former lifestyle as the Christian comes under the discipline of God Himself.
---lee1538 on 11/5/11


2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live, if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered, but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
---francis on 11/5/11


God told the people of Israel to obseve the Sabbath in the covenant He made ONLY with them.lee1538 11/5/11 PANTS ON FIRE

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people:neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant,
Also the SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, EVERY ONE that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT

EVERY ONE Jew and gentile could take hold of God's covenant
---francis on 11/5/11


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--christan on 11/4/11

what I am saying is that BEFORE God wrote them on tables of stone, He spoke them out loud to israel. Then when israel heard his voice, they were afraid and asked Moses to stand between. After they heard his voice then Moses went up the mountain and spoke with God. It was while Moses was in the mountain that God wrote the ten commandments on stone and gave them to Moses. But the people had already heard the ten commandments from God.

That is why the text keep saying God spoke to you and ye heard the words, and ye heard a voice, IN YOUR ASSEMBLY. That is why Moses was angry the first time he came down, they had heard the law of God from God himself, but they had returned to idolatry.
---Francis on 11/5/11


rJerry //God Himself told YOU to REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

God told the people of Israel to obseve the Sabbath in the covenant He made ONLY with them.Dt. 5,3

There is virtually NOTHING in the New Covenant that commands the observance of any day. While we can see 9 of the 10 the commandments in the New covennat we do not see anything that even resembles a command to observe any day as holy.

Clearly, most clearly, if the Sabbath has been mandated to Gentile converts we would see that in Acts 15 as well as taught in the early church but we do not. And that would imply that the Apostles & their succcessor did not teach Sabbath observance.
---lee1538 on 11/5/11


Exo 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Exo 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
Exo 19:25-20:1 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them. And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:19-20 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Deu 4:10-13
---micha9344 on 11/5/11


Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Salvation in this context means that when the wrath of God, the lake of fire that destroys the wicked occurs, we will be saved from it to live in eternity with God

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

If this salvation is NEARER that means we do not yet have it But we, because of the more sure promises of God accept that we have it BY FAITH

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
---Francis on 11/5/11


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Francis, honestly, you take the Word of God out of context thinking you are giving glory to God. But when one twist and turn the Scripture and lie, it becomes something else just from the likes of Satan.

Are you to tell me that you understand Deuteronomy 4 and 5 as to God did appear to Israel when the two tablets of His laws were delivered and that it was not Moses himself? Deuteronomy 4:12 was what Moses was telling Israel when he gave the laws from God. Moses was a prophet from God!

Last I read in Exodus, the multitudes of Israel never went up to Mt Sinai and neither did God came down to speak to them. ONLY Moses was asked by God to go up and receive the law and ONLY Moses came back down.
---christan on 11/4/11


So while God is speaking to them, they decided to have a party and make a molten calf.
Well something doesnt sound right!

Exo_19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19-24!
Exo_19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
Exo_20:1-26
Exo_21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
Exo_21:2-23:33!
Exo_24:2 And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh, neither shall the people go up with him.
It goes on and on!

Joh_5:37!
Mat_18:16! When God speaks its always to all!
Peace!


---TheSeg on 11/5/11


Lee: "What God wrote with His finger is no lesser importance than what He told us elsewhere in Scripture."

Then why do you treat it as such? God Himself told YOU to REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. But you answer Him "NO! I will not obey you". And your justification is the misapplied metaphor of a meer man? Let's hope that God will buy that argument in the JUDGEMENT. Oh, that's right. You don't "believe" in the judgement. Good luck with that.
---jerry6593 on 11/5/11


For once Christan and I agree
---CraigA on 11/4/11
---christan on 11/4/11

AGAIN you and christian are BOTH wrong. You negl,ected to check the texts

Deuteronomy 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain,

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the wordsYE HEARD THE VOICE OF THE WORDS, but saw no similitude, ONLY YE HEARD A VOICE
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Moses is reminding Israel that when God spoke His ten commandments that ISRAEL HEARD THE VOICE OF GOD DECLEARING HIS TEN COMMANDMENTS
---francis on 11/4/11


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God did not "speak" to Israel but only to Moses. God did not bring the ten commandments down Himself to Israel but Moses did.--
For once Christan and I agree
---CraigA on 11/4/11
READ READ READ

Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake UNTO ALL YOUR ASSEMBLY .. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. Deuteronomy 5:23 And it came to pass, when HE YEARD THE VOICE out of the midst of the darkness,..
Deuteronomy 5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, andWE HAVE HEARD HIS VOICE.. Deuteronomy 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
---francis on 11/4/11


--God did not "speak" to Israel but only to Moses. God did not bring the ten commandments down Himself to Israel but Moses did.--

For once Christan and I agree
---CraigA on 11/4/11


"God did not give the ten commandments through Moses, he spoke them HIMSELF." Francis

What you presented in Deuteronomy 4:12,13 is merely the account at Mt Sinai between God and Moses. God did not "speak" to Israel but only to Moses. God did not bring the ten commandments down Himself to Israel but Moses did. That's why John said what he said, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

It so pleased the Lord to choose Moses to be the representative of His law, that's why whenever Moses name is mentioned we know that God was talking about His law. So then, what's "WRONG LAW" by your understanding? Is there another law outside of Moses?
---christan on 11/4/11


//John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11
WRONG LAW

Now you are really becoming delusional maybe even following in the footsteps of olde Ellen White who beleived one is saved by grace alone if and only if you observe the law especially those that are strictly Jewish in nature.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11


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Francis:
The proof you keep asking us for is in your own posts. You say we are saved by grace but then you also claim that if we break the commandments we are not worshipping God and not Christian.

We have seen how SDA's do not observe the Sabbath as they should anyway, but can you tell us now about the consequences if we non-SDA's don't observe the Sabbath as SDA's believe it should be?

This could settle this debate about law verses grace.
---Haz27 on 11/4/11


John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11
WRONG LAW
Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude, only [ye heard] a voice.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

God did not give the ten commandments through Moses. he spoke them HIMSELF
---Francis on 11/4/11


Francis //SAYS:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And Christ did fulfill the law becoming our rest that the Sabbath rest depicted.

//So where do you think this change in the law and time of the sabbath of the Lord came from: JESUS, THE APOSTLES or THE FOURTH BEAST?
---

Your problem is your determination that the church is NOT under a New Covenant (or agreement) that the New Covenant is but a rehash of the Old.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11


What God wrote with His finger is no lesser importance than what He told us elsewhere in Scripture.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11

God commanded Moses to teach about burnt offerings and sacrifices. then through his prophets he said:
Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

1 Samuel 15:22 to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.


Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice,
---francis on 11/4/11


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Jerry //Typical lawless reasoning of the carnal mind....

What did God write with His own finger?
-------
What God wrote with His finger is no lesser importance than what He told us elsewhere in Scripture.
Have you ever read Galatians that the law only served as a guardian (schoolmaster) to bring us to Christ that we could be justified by faith?

Your comment about those who believe the Scripture that one lives by faith not by the law have a carnal mind is typical of the children of Hagar bearing children for slavery.

Ever read Martin Luther, how he strived to obey law but when he read Romans 1:17 all the lights came on regarding how one is to live the Christian life?
---lee1538 on 11/4/11


We are not saved by works but by accepting what Jesus did on the cross for us and His blood covers our sins.When Jesus diedon the cross He dies for everybody. We dont go the Hell for our sins but because we dont accept what Jesus did for our sins by shedding His blood. So you dont get saved by our works and you dont loose your salvation by your sins they are all ready covered by Jesus's blood.
---Diane_Gilland on 11/4/11


lee1538 on 11/3/11
Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
The Jews and religious proselytes spoken of here are christians. We know that because Paul says to them "continue in the grace of God." Paul would not say to anyone who did not believe in Jesus to continue in the grace, because those who do not believe are not in the grace of God. Point is these christians "Jews and religious proselytes" were there that day keeping and worshiping on the sabbath.

If they were worshiping on sudnays then the gentiles would be required to come NEXT DAY not NEXT SABBATH
---Francis on 11/4/11


"Adventists say one is not saved by works, but works are necessary to be saved."
---lee1538 on 11/3/11

---Haz27 on 11/4/11
Proverbs 14:18 The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.

Why did you not ask lee1538 to give you some proof?
On what basis do you agree with him on this?
Do you yourself have any proof that this is so?
---francis on 11/4/11


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"Adventists say one is not saved by works, but works are necessary to be saved."
---lee1538 on 11/3/11
True.
SDA's should consider Gal 2:16-21
" for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners (i.e being under the law and transgressing it as SDA's do) is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
For if I build again those things (works of the law) which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God....
I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
---Haz27 on 11/4/11


Lee1538 "[The Father] saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor, Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him, And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Oh, sing to the LORD a new song! For He has done marvelous things, His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory. Salvation is of the LORD." We are "born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
---joseph on 11/4/11


Lee: "I maintain that scripture does not mandate we observe any day as holy as those who believe have entered God's rest as typified by the Sabbath."

Typical lawless reasoning of the carnal mind....

What did God write with His own finger?

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
---jerry6593 on 11/4/11


We need to reason from the standpoint of scripture more so than what the early church fathers or what the established church may claim.
---lee1538 on 11/3/11

OK. PROPHECY says:

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,..Daniel 7:25 And he shall..think to change times and laws:

Is not ROME the fourth beast?

babylon, medio-persia, greece, and the fourth beast.

BIBLE SAYS:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

So where do you think this change in the law and time of the sabbath of the Lord came from: JESUS, THE APOSTLES or THE FOURTH BEAST?
---francis on 11/3/11


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Frances//We Catholics.. frankly say, "Yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, Peter R. Tramer.Editor
---
Yes, the Roman Catholic claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and for their defense they tell you that the change occured during Apostolic times.

What is interesting is they have explicit support from all the early church writers none of whom taught observance of the Jewish Sabbath.

I have no problem believing the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday but no one yet has been able to find any scriptural support for its observance by Christians.

Ellen White was a child of the beast as she was a false prophet.
---lee1538 on 11/3/11


Back to the forum thread.

Both Adventism and Roman Catholicism believe that one may lose his or her salvation if one dies with unconfessed sin. But that effectively puts salvation back in the hands of believers not in the hands of God.

Adventists really talk out of both sides of their mouth when they say salvation is wholly of God. Their god is one who would become guilty of infanticide - the killing of ones own children.

In short, Adventists say one is not saved by works, but works are necessary to be saved.
---lee1538 on 11/3/11


//(2) We Catholics.. frankly say, "Yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws,

Peter R. Tramer. Editor
----
While it is true the Roman Church claims to have changed the Jewish Sabbath to Sunday, they also claim that this was done by the Apostles, Peter being the first Roman Church pope and this they support fully by the explicit writings of the early church.

We need to reason from the standpoint of scripture more so than what the early church fathers or what the established church may claim.

I maintain that scripture does not mandate we observe any day as holy as those who believe have entered God's rest as typified by the Sabbath. Romans 14:5-6, Hebrews 4:3
---lee1538 on 11/3/11


1 Peter 4:15_19
God knows what he has asked of each and everyone of us and the timeline of such.
Who is the good steward"

Luke 13:2_9:

That fig tree could be a 'dresser' also...
Gal 4,
"I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,"

1 Peter 4:15_19
---Nana on 11/3/11


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---lee1538 on 11/2/11
The choices for any individual are simple:
Follow the laws of the beast:
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,..Daniel 7:25 And he shall ...think to change times and laws:

OR GOD: Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Avenue, Chicago, Illinois

Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday,
(2) We Catholics.. frankly say, "Yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws,

Peter R. Tramer. Editor
---francis on 11/3/11


Our Apostle Peter was the first to minister the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles (Acts chapter ten). Then, at Antioch, Peter and other church leaders "played the hypocrite" by discriminating against Gentile believers. So, he betrayed the Holy Spirit and sinned against loving Jesus Christ's own brothers and sisters.

So, you could be asking if Peter lost his salvation, then, by so sinning against love.

I think Peter's epistles are the work of a man who got corrected, after that, and then matured to become a good example for the church, showing how God does not fail to do all His word says (Isaiah 55:11), with His children (Hebrews 12:7-11, 1 John 4:17).
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/3/11


TheSeg, everything you ever will be is solely dependent on yourself...
Certainly does appear that way, doesnt it!
But, who am I to tell anyone anything!
If you want to strive, strive away, Bro.
And may God bless you, for it!

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up
Do you think Pharaoh knew what was going on?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Who hands made all there is?
Rom 9:16
Peace brother!



---TheSeg on 11/3/11


the Seg, everything you ever will be is solely dependent on yourself, salvation is solely dependent on God.

God might decide you'll be saved, but all the restr is up to you,

and no we can never (in this life) attain perfectness, however we can come very near, therfore God has said BE THOU holy FOR I AM HOLY.
---andy3996 on 11/3/11


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andy3996 however we need to strive for perfection?
Can I attain perfection? I don't believe I can.
Everything I am or will be is totally and solely dependent on God.

I believe this with all my heart
lee1538 anyone who would believe regardless of what we do or do not do.

Evan Once we accept Christ as our saviour,
If that was all he wouldnt have said: Mat_7:23!
What lee said is not as easy as it looks, to take in to your heart.

christan Yes, His death and resurrection saved His people and none is lost.
I believe so: Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,...
Mat_21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive!
---TheSeg on 11/2/11


//Once we accept Christ as our saviour, that He died on the cross to redeem us, we become His child and therefore saved.

Very true and it is doubtful God will be one to commit fraticide - kill His own children. However, Adventists like Francis want to beleive that if we do have communal worship on Sundays, we will bear the mark of the beast and be lost.

But all that garbage comes from their founder who probably did not know Christ as her personal savior in the first place.
---lee1538 on 11/2/11


Sin is what Christ came for, to make an atonement that man cannot atone for on their own before God. And this is what Scripture declares, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

Truth be told, His death at Calvary according to the above Scripture, the atonement was made only for "his people" and to preach otherwise is a lie. The Holy Scripture is complete and God has revealed to us that "his people" are those "According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world," Ephesians 1:4

Yes, His death and resurrection saved His people and none is lost.
---christan on 11/2/11


Once we accept Christ as our saviour, that He died on the cross to redeem us, we become His child and therefore saved. Our salvation does not go away just because we have sinned after we accept Christ. However, we Christians should not abuse this fact. Remember, God may not take back our salvation when we sin but we are still bound to suffer from the consequences of our sins.

Furthermore, a true Christian desires to walk right with God and will feel remorse everytime he sins not because of fear of going to hell but bacause he knows that he made the Holy Spirit weep because of his failure to overcome sin.
---Evan on 11/2/11


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TheSeq - Mark 10:26-27 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Agree with you that salvation is wholly of God and is considered to be of His sovereign will for anyone who would beleive regardless of what we do or do not do.
---lee1538 on 11/2/11


St John said, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But if anyone sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He is the propitiation for our sins."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/2/11


however we need to strive for perfection, (not use our salvation as an excuse for sin) still when a Christian falls into temptation and sins, he is forgiven for every future sin he commits and repents of
---andy3996 on 11/2/11


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