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Explain Freewill Salvation

Isn't it a contradiction when one says "you can choose to accept Christ by your freewill" and "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44?

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 ---christan on 11/4/11
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Trav is correct in stating in ISAAC will thy seed be called, ..so Romans 9 beginning with Isaac and Galatians are very compatable in this Promise given to Abraham.

Like Isaac was, so are we, children of PROMISE. The PROMISE is the Promise of the Holy Spirit, not promise of individual selection of one being hated and another not.

Betwen Isaac and Ishmael, God never hated Ishmael.

It was NEVER a choice between the two to begin with.

Ishmael came from Abraham's lack of faith.

The PROMISE was to Abraham and SARAH, that THEY would have a child.

Jacob/Esau don't even factor into this at all. Jacob was never called a child of PROMISE.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/11


Christan, what you also fail to understand is God's Promise to Abrahan concerning the LAND was also before the Law came into effect.

SO although we inherit the promises of eternal life, the CHURCH does not inherit the promises that were specifically made to Israel.

God will YET, neanotn FUTURE, have MERCY on JACOB, AKA Israel and bring them back to the land.

Isaiah 14, verse 7...IN THAT DAY there will be REST in the WHOLE WIDE WORKD. That day has not happened yet.

The 1000 year Kingdom Reign when Jesus is KING ON THE EARTH PHYSICALLY ruling, there will be REST and peace on earth,

BUT not until then!
---kathr4453 on 11/12/11


Trav, you're not even close. This is how Paul explains the "children of the promise", Galatians 3:

14 "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.", 16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.", 18 "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

Only those who are born of the Spirit are the "children of the promise", just like Abraham was. He wasn't even a Jew when God made the "promise" to him.
---christan on 11/12/11


--But what can you expect as their founder had only a 4th grade education and suffered a frontal lobe injury to her head when a child?--

Yeah its best to follow the teachings of men who murder in the name of Christ because people dont adhere to their teachings.

No murderer has eternal life abiding in them which means He did NOT have the Spirit of Christ.
---CraigA on 11/12/11


Gordon, you do not seem to get it. The people talked about here who do not remain, are those people who follow God for a while, like many you see in church for a few years and then they leave. They are apostates who never really had true faith. They did not continue to abide in Christ. So they left. The remaining give evidence of their salvation. Not very hard to understand Gordon, unless you are just trying anything to be right. No where in those passages does it say those were born of the spirit and then lost been born of the spirit, because no one born of the Spirit goes back to been spiritually dead again. No such things are mentioned in Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/11




Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion( SION HERE IS HEAVEN) the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Do you actually believe Jesus is coming one day to turn ungodliness from the CHURCH?

Zechariah12-14 tells us EXACTLY when the Deliver will come and trun away UNGODLINESS from Jacob, and deliver them out of the hands of arrogant gentile nations around them IN THAT DAY THAT DAY has not happened YET!.

This is called the second coming...NOT the Rpature/ or translation of the Church.

NO ONE is meeting Jesus in the Clouds in Zechariah 12-14.

WE actually come WITH Jesus at His return (and all His Saints WITH HIM.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/11


Racist?/ That's about the most ignorant thing I have heard yet. Both Jew aned Gentile TODAY are called the Church, the Bride/body of Christ.

Physical Israel, AFTER the Bride is raptured will be saved. Possibly you're anti-semitic.

WE inherit blessings from Above,, not land.

Physical Israel will inherit LAND and Zechariah 12-14 CONFIRM God's plan for Israel.

IF you understood all the MYSTERIES, you would understand this too!

The Church is not Israel or even Spiritual Israel.

The Church is ONE NEW MAN.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/11


but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8 ---christan on 11/11/11

Well, you get close but don't get it either christan. The children of the promise were through through Issac. It was Ishmael that was not of the original promise. And is evident today...or the Bible lied. Which we know/believe it did not lie.
Judah was Christ own family end. They would have him not. But, the divorced side Nth House, wanted to be "grafted back" in. They have been, and still are.
Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,
---Trav on 11/11/11


Mark V, YAHUSHUA said "If a man ABIDE NOT in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered..." In order for one to get to the place where he "abides not", he has to have "abided in" the Lord at one point in time. For, the Lord is NOT talking about "unsaved" people, here, Mark. He's talking about His Followers! That's If any of His FOLLOWERS do not remain with Him, they are cast out, "withered" (loss of True Living Waters) and is cast into the Fire (Hell) in the End. These'd be people that were, at one time, abiding in YAHUSHUA, but, at one point discontinued to abide. And were then "dried up" from True Spiritual Life, EQUALING Loss of Salvation!
---Gordon on 11/11/11


christan//Romans 9:8 - just because you are a Jew does not make you a child of God.
---
Totally agree howbeit you have the Adventists believing that once you become a Christian you are automatically subject to selected Jewish laws, the Sabbath and the dietary laws.

But what can you expect as their founder had only a 4th grade education and suffered a frontal lobe injury to her head when a child?
---lee1538 on 11/11/11




The "remaining" is evidence that salvation has already taken placeMark_V

That would be great except the Bible clearly teaches that the END of our faith is the salvation of our souls. This is something that occurs when Christ returns to get us. We do not have salvation yet. We have the firstfruits of the Spirit. We are waiting for our salvation in faith, purifying ourselves by the blood and Spirit of Christ, just as he was pure.
---JackB on 11/12/11


"God has always LOVED ISRAEL with an everlasting Love."

Indeed, God has always loved the "Spiritual Israel" with an everlasting love. And they consist of "...a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes..." Revelation 7:9

Just to show how carnal and racist you are, Paul contradict your idea of only physical Jews are God's people, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8 - just because you are a Jew does not make you a child of God.
---christan on 11/11/11


Gordon, are you blind? I said the same thing you did. Here is what I said,
'The word "abide" means to remain or stay around. The "remaining" is evidence that salvation has already taken place ( 1 John 2:19) and not vice versa. The fruit or evidence of salvation is continuence in service to Him and in His teachings ( John 8:31: 1 John 2:24 )." Hello Gordon anyone home where you live?
All who abide are the ones staying. Are the one's who have true faith, so have genuine salvation. All other were phonies. Here it is in simple words, "if you remain with Christ, it gives evidence you are a true believer in Christ. Pretty simple to me.
---Mark_V. on 11/11/11


Jonah 4:2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish, for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.


God ABLOLUTELY had Mercy on Nineveh!
---kathr4453 on 11/11/11


--John 15 continues...
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
--This has the same notion as...
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
--Both extremes are not of God.
--We are made in the image of God, the ability to choose, else punishment and chastisement would be vanity.
-- yet, without Him we can do nothing. (John 15:5)
---micha9344 on 11/11/11


MarkV, Look up the word "abide" in the Dictionary. "ABIDE" means to "REMAIN WITH". That is what YAHUSHUA was saying here! But, your response just now is the perfect example of what I meant when I told you that when you are willing to believe a false doctrine or some other LIE (like OSAS), it TWISTS your understanding of the Scriptures. "If the branch ABIDES in the Vine...", is the same thing as saying "If the branch REMAINS ATTACHED to the Vine..." You cannot see the Truth, Mark, because the falsehood of OSAS has blinded you from being able to understand the Scriptures. It's blinded you from seeing the Truth.
---Gordon on 11/11/11


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Gordon, you said,
"That a person must be IN HIM to begin with, to be able to "abide in Him"! So, He warns that, if someone, who is now "in Him", at one point discontinues to "abide in Him""
Nothing in John says that. The word "abide" means to remain or stay around. The "remaining" is evidence that salvation has already taken place ( 1 John 2:19) and not vice versa. The fruit or evidence of salvation is continuence in service to Him and in His teachings ( John 8:31: 1 John 2:24 ). The abiding believer is the only legitimate believer. Those that "abide" or remain, He prunes, God removes all things in the believers life that would hinder fruit bearing.
---Mark_V. on 11/11/11


Im always so amaze by what people say or more to the point what they believe.

Rom_9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
God Bless
---TheSeg on 11/11/11


Oh really? Mercy leads to eternal life? Always? Well scripture totally disagrees with you.

Mercy does not ALWAYS lead to eternam life! Obvoulsly this person that stated this does not know scripture.


1 Chronicles 17:13
I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

And MANY that came out of Egypt under God's mercy God destroyed in the wilderness.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/11


Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.


Oh but how they hate this verse that God will ONCE AGAIN have Mercy on Jacob...RE Israel. They scoff even NOW as we see God bringing them back into teh Land He Promised them.

Funny how some pick and choose what they want MERCY to mean.


So Christan, if in fact mercy always leads to the Salvation of the ELECT....here it is...Read it and weep!


Now WHAT again exactly did God say in Romans 11...God WILL show them MERCY through our Mercy.

Them/Our..two different groups here.Romans 11:28-32
---kathr4453 on 11/11/11


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Whereas mercy spoken of by God in the Scripture leads to eternal life. And He says He only shows mercy to those whom He loved from eternity and never to those whom He hated from eternity.
---christan on 11/10/11


God has always LOVED ISRAEL with an everlasting Love. God said to Israel, YOU ONLY have I known of all the families of the earth.

Face it Christan, You are not of any of teh physical tribes of Israel, and you distort scripture God spoke exclusively to them, and claim it for yourself.

Now that Jesus had died and Rose again, You Christan A Gentile have the privledge to come to the Mercy seat to FIND MERCY and Grace through personal repentance of your sin.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/11


"God had Mercy on Hagar and Ishmael, on Nineveh, and neither of these were God's elect."

Obviously this person speaking does not even understand what God's mercy entails. Never in the book of Genesis did God say He had mercy on Hagar nor Ishmael. What God did demonstrate to them was His goodness that cannot be equated to eternal life. God's goodness shines upon all His creation including the believers and unbelievers who even curse and swear at Him and never give Him the glory for their lives.

Whereas mercy spoken of by God in the Scripture leads to eternal life. And He says He only shows mercy to those whom He loved from eternity and never to those whom He hated from eternity.
---christan on 11/10/11


LeeJ, in reading Phil 1 I see you take a sentence and only take out part of teh sentence and not start at teh beginning of the sentence. Paul is not talking about salvation or sanctification, but is commending them for their partnership in the Gospel with Paul in sharing his chains and afflictions.

Hebrews as well is talking about our fellowship in this life of suffering with Christ. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus who is our example of suffering. We follow Him, and His example of suffering. Read the whole text of these verses leeJ.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11


MarkV, The Christian Life is a Race, a Battle, and a TWO-WAY Relationship where GOD does HIS Part and we have to do ours. The Verses I used to use to defend OSAS are the same Verses I now use to fight against that false doctrine. It's JOHN 10:27-29. The difference is the emphasis on the Verses. For OSAS it was: Verses 28-29. But, NOW, it's Verse 27b. WHY? Because the Lord spelled out the Salvation Life in order. FIRST, we HEAR Him, and He'll know us. THEN, we F-O-L-L-O-W Him! THEN, if we follow Him we will have Eternal Life. And, the following has to be ON GOING. Many OSAS Christians are living in deliberate sin, and believe that they're still Saved, thanks to OSAS, but, are really backslidden and on their way to Hell, unless they repent!
---Gordon on 11/10/11


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Mark V, Note what YAHUSHUA says in JOHN 15: "Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit He TAKETH AWAY...If a man ABIDETH NOT in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and IS WITHERED, and men gather them, and CAST THEM INTO THE FIRE, and they are BURNED!" He says that if a man "abideth not" in Him, MEANING: That a person must be IN HIM to begin with, to be able to "abide in Him"! So, He warns that, if someone, who is now "in Him", at one point discontinues to "abide in Him", they are DRIED UP (loses Spiritual Life!) and then, are BURNED (cast into HELL). To abide in YAHUSHUA is to be "Saved", Mark. So, it is possible, according to this Passage, to STOP abiding in the Lord.
---Gordon on 11/10/11


Kathr4453//Yes, that verse (Php. 1:6)is so true to someone NOW already Saved. BUT you are assuming God is already in a person before he is saved.
-----
No, you really have your grammar incorrect. "began" in the verse Php. 1:6, is in the past tense. Perhaps the Message Bible will help you.

Php. 1:6 There has never been the slightest doubt in my mind that the God who started this great work in you would keep at it and bring it to a flourishing finish on the very day Christ Jesus appears.

Consider also:

The Lord is the Author of our salvation from start to finish.

Hebrews 12:2a Looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith,
---lee1538 on 11/10/11


Leej, Hebrews tells us once we are saved, the Blood of Christ purges "our conscience" from dead works to serve the Living God.

But this thread is becoming defiled, so I will catch you later on another thread to continue discussing. Someone AGAIN wants to make it all abourt them...DRAMA QUEEN!

I also appreciate your Christ like manner that we can discuss.

K
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11


markv, did you say God crawled out of your mouth?

Sick!
---Rena on 11/10/11


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Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 11/10/11

LeeJ, Yes, that verse is so true to someone NOW already Saved. BUT you are assuming God is already in a person before he is saved.

What comes first, the mind or heart? I believe the Heart is where a person's CONSCIENCE resides. Not only his conscience, but his will, and his personality.

All men are given a conscience, saved or lost. (animals have no conscience, and that is what separates man from beast.)

The conscience is what knows good and evil. So, it's our conscience God works on and in.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11


Rena, the Word of God crawled out of my mouth but you reject it and accepted a substitute. You and all those who names come up every year or so suddenly speak for Kathr, how convenient. Could be you are another of Kathr's names she uses. Paranoid, not likely. Just a little smart.
If you have nothing to contribute then you answer is meaningless.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/11


markv, whom is "us", when only "you" are posting to me? Do not assume to speak for any other person on this site, especially not for any of my brothers and sisters when you are not a Christian.
---Eloy on 11/10/11


cluny, As I have corrected you numerous times before, I preach the truth, and not ideas. This is not any idea I have, but the truth: "Do people gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so every good tree brings forward good fruit, but a corrupt tree brings forward bad fruit. Wherefore by their fruits you all will know them." -Jesus Almighty
---Eloy on 11/10/11


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cluny, As I have corrected you numerous times before, I preach the truth, and not ideas. This is not any idea I have, but the truth: "Do people gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so every good tree brings forward good fruit, but a corrupt tree brings forward bad fruit. Wherefore by their fruits you all will know them." -Jesus Almighty
---Eloy on 11/10/11


kathr4453 //leeJ, what you stated I believe is partially correct.

What comes first, the heart or the mind?

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, AND shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

But it is God that calls one to salvation, you do not decide of yourself. It is God that 'begins' the good work within the believer.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 11/10/11


MarkV, what on earth crawled in your mouth and died?

Do you always imagine people are after you? Paranoia perhaps?

I see of late you have made these horrible statements and yet I see no proof of your accusations. I don't even see any hateful responses towards you.

So, now you see yourself as a martyr?

Oh Please, Give us all a break.
---Rena on 11/10/11


Kathr, list anything you want. Most of it is lies as always. I have disagreed with Eloy because of doctrines he contradicts, and how he disagrees with others who question him. But let me tell you there is no one like you. Not one. I have answered thousands of post. And many disagree with me and tell me so, some even get angry. But none of them is vicious or have the venom that comes out of your mouth. I'm not afraid of you in the least. I do not pray that God removes you from me, because I know His Grace is sufficient for me.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/11


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MarkV, shall we list all the things YOU believe?

Begging for Mercy? OR , That the Holy Spirit REALLY isn't in you OR that Jesus REALLY isn't in you? Shall I go on with all your nonsense?

God can have Mercy on anypone He wishes, and that doesn't mean he's saved or the Elect. Sometimes God shows mercy to another JUST BECAUSE you are judgemental and hateful to them, JUST to bring YOU down to know your place. God has mercy on those who SHOW Mercy.

Seeing you sho no mercy on those you hate....let's see how much mercy God will show to you!

God had Mercy on Hagar and Ishmael, on Nineveh, and neither of these were God's elect.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11


Eloy, your contradictions are very visible to us. You contradicted youself when you said that believers don't sin, then you tell us you had to be born again again because you sinned the first time by rejecting Christ. Now that is a contradiction. What's more you say that there is righteous people without Christ. Which means they too make it into the kingdom of God without having to be born of the Spirit. They are already righteous. Then when someone calls you on something you condemn them to hell because they tell you the Truth. God is always sovereign, man never is, and no one is born again twice Eloy. And no one is sinless. And there is no one righteous without the righteousness of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/11


\\Christian, Do not ask the question if you do not want to know the truth?\\

Where did you get the idea that YOU knew the truth, you who hear demons speaking in their own language?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/10/11


leeJ, what you stated I believe is partially correct. WHAT that preacher is saying may not even be the Gospel empowered by the Holy Spirit to begin with. Let's take Osteen's Gospel...actually is NO GOSPEL God would ever empower, SO THEN that in itself is not of God, and leading poor souls to deceipt.

However those God has EMPOWERED WITH POWER to preach the TRUE GOSPEL is what leads man to true salvation.

My Brother in law, was RCC, until he met my sister, went to her church, HEARD THE GOSPEL and got saved. He was very angry he never heard the truth from the RCC and went and told his priest that very thing.

There is 1001 false Gospels out there...ONLY ONE SAVES SOULS!
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11


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Christian, Do not ask the question if you do not want to know the truth? I make no contradictions, and the only problem with thr truth I post is with the sinners whom have zero spiritual discernment and think that Holy Scripture is a contradiction, when in fact it rflows in perfect symmetry and makes perfect sense to those of us whiom are blessed with the mind of Christ. Therefore I suggest that you too receive the Spirit of Christ then the Scriptures nor us saints will seem contradictory to you any more.
---Eloy on 11/9/11


I think the major difference between John 6:44 and accepting Christ by ones own freewill, lies with whether one assents with ones mind versus whether Christ has called the believer to salvation.

In other words, just saying the magic words - "repeat after me the sinners prayer" as many ministers will do in giving the invitation to receive Christ as Lord & Savior,may be more the will of the mind and not the will of the heart.

No one can may order Christ to come into his or her life, as salvation from start to finish is really wholly of God.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that HE who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


Gordon, since you and Kathr try to strip God of His power, you both answer the same. First you suggest a person is saved by his works, his own free will. And because of that you believe since he saved himself, he can also unsave himself by his works. You can never, unless God reveal's it to you, ever believe and trust in the works of Christ. You will always be worried whether you have done enough or not.
Here is the crucial question, whether in the last analysis, Christianity is a religion of utter reliance on God for salvation and all things necessary to it, or of self-reliance and self-effort?
You choose self-reliance and self-effort. Nothing wrong with that, many are on your side. A big group.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/11


Eloy, you contradict yourself twice in the same breath.

Here's where your problem is: Is Christ also God? Isn't God Almighty and Sovereign? For you to say that Christ has "drawn all mankind" to Him, then rightfully none should be lost right? Christ said so, "those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost".

As for your second part, until you can show prove from the Scripture that God told man of such a plan in His creation that "it remains his choice", you are calling God a liar for saying He will save His people and yet it depended on the "man's choice" to be saved. How can it make sense that God save a man and the man unsave himself?
---christan on 11/9/11


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Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


God cannot JUDGE anyone according to the Gospel if one has not heard the Gospel.

So let's Let God be God and let's not question according to our limited understanding.

If HE said The Grace of God leading to salvation has appeared to ALL MEN, then you know what leej, I BELIEVE HIM.

I don't sit around like Trav insisting the ARK was too small for all the animals, or if God really parted the sea, or attribute it to a tornado...

I just believe God.

Your earthly LIMITED wisdom is foolishness to God.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/11


Man made of the dust is not God no matter how much free will God has given to man. Even man's greatest mightiest power,wisdom and knowledge is NOTHING compared to God. So please don't bring God down to YOUR level of understanding, making Him like you. God's ways are not your.

That's why God is not AFRAID of giving man free will.

We are given free will to Chose Life or Chose Death.

Yet, I don't have the freedom to translate myself to the moon or back, or change myself into a cow.

Allowing man to chose life or death in no way HINDERS God's Sovereignty.

When you are in the New Heaven and Earth, then YES, it's possible man/The New Creature will not have free will, for there will be nothing to CHOSE at that point.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/11


//Leej you left out 1st John, He died not ONly for our sin, but the sin OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

However salvation is effacious only for those who will believe.

And who may believe?,only those to whom hear the gospel message. But not all people will hear the gospel message and there are many who hear but cannot conceive.

Salvation is wholly of God from start to finish.

Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


Christian, no it is not a contradiction. Because Christ is already lifted up to draw "all" mankind up to him. And eventhough the Father has drawn man to him, it still remains man's choice to say Yes or No to him. He sets before each soul, life and death, and tells us to choose life, however, not all will choose Christ, for as you know there are many disobedient people whom are antiChrist and that is 100% man's choice first to reject God's love, and not any of God's choice to reject man.
---Eloy on 11/9/11


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Kathr, again you said,
"Don't you all get tired of being accused os stripping God of His Sovereignty? Can anyone REALLY strip God of His Sovereignty"
The answer is no. No one can strip God of His Sovereignty that is why I answer you and Gordon. You can try all you want, and preach as if you could, but you only make yourself a fool. You can continue to pretend that you can, but it's only in your mind. He never stops been God. And man is never God, he will remain a sinner, until God glorifies him.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/11


Gordon, what your really lack is faith. True faith in the Lord. Your faith is in yourself and what you can and cannot do. Sorry, but that is not the way of salvation. No amount of works will get you into the kingdom of heaven. You have to be born of the Spirit by the Spirit. And when you are, you will receive that faith you lack. Faith on the works of Christ. You are still walking with the illusion that if you do enough works, you will be allowed in, sorry, but there is only one way in, through faith in Jesus Christ and His works on the cross and His resurrection. I will keep my hope in Christ, you can keep your hope in yourself. Thanks for your answer.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/11


Gordon 2: Once saved by the grace of God, you cannot be unsaved.
"I thank God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of Jesus Christ, who shall also sustain you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
God's grace saved us, enriching us with all things by Him, in all utterance and knowledge with every spiritual gift we would need, including the testimony of Christ, who will sustain us to the end. That can only be believed by faith in Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/11


MARK V, You make the big mistake by believing in the false doctrine of OSAS. I told you before, and I tell you again! The believing of the Lie of OSAS opens you up to believe other lies. The believing of OSAS twists your ability to see the Truth as it is. Your arguments are so lame, MarkV. Your belief is so LAME, FLIMSY, WEAK and WIMPY. But Spiritual Pride and fear of the Truth (YES. Fear of the TRUTH!) will not allow you to see the Truth! Just having me, or anyone else, calling you out on this fact will make you want to continue to stick to your belief and trust in the OSAS doctrine even more tenaciously. But, you do it at your own risk! That is the Truth! I know, because, I was there!
---Gordon on 11/8/11


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Leej you left out 1st John, He died not ONly for our sin, but the sin OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

Did John lie?

No where does scripture say Jesus died ONLY for the elect. That is your interpretation.

It's not a choice between universalism or Elect. That's how your mind works.

Faith in Jesus is making it Personal tht Jesus died for YOUR sin, and THEN the effect of His death and resurrectionn life begins at work in you.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/11


//Isn't the Gospel message God's CALL to all mankind to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

No! Jesus died only for the elect.Though Jesus sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all.

Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. See the following: Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for 'many',

John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, Mt. 25:32-33),

John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world,

Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people,

and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


LEEJ

Isn't the Gospel message God's CALL to all mankind to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is who does the DRAWING today in the Church Age.

The Holy Spirit draws and points to Jesus, and Jesus points us to The Father.

When we are saved the FIRST thing we say ..or should is ABBA FATHER! Dad! Why? Because we have been BIRTHED, becoming Begotten Sons THROUGH Jesus Christ.

NO ONE was already Begotten or Birthed before placing their faith in Jesus Christ, to become Sons.

To as many as receive Him, to Then gave He the power to BECOME Sons of God.

Anything else IS MORMON!
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


Whereas salvation is wholly of God, the person that is offered the gift of salvation is free to accept or reject it. Howbeit, the offer has to come from God as "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". John 6:44.

And they that believe WILL be taught by taught by God.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everythingand is true and is no lie, just as it has taught youabide in him.
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


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Gordon, you make a big big mistake. In order to give man his rights over God you strip God of His Soverignty. His deity, His very nature. Don't you realize who the God of Scripture is?
MarkV//

Don't you all get tired of being accused os stripping God of His Sovereignty? Can anyone REALLY strip God of His Sovereignty, EVER? Even though we have free will, we still can't strip God of His Sovereignty.

God is God period.

That is such a rediculous argument it's not even funny.

It takes MORE than coming to Christ to be saved anyway.

Many Come to Christ, but very few come THROUGH Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


//The thing is that salvation is offered to everyone according to John 3:16, but not everyone will except it.

Doubtful, as not everyone will hear the gospel unto salvation.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Will there be those who have not heard?
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


Both are true. The thing is that salvation is offered to everyone according to John 3:16, but not everyone will except it.

We do have a free will to choose Christ or deny Him. Contrary to popular belief, we are the ones chosing salvation. God has done His part.

As far as "drawing" a person God cannot override a person's will. The gospel is present to all, but a person doesn't have to recieve it.

Romans 10:9-10 even shows that a person has to choose Christ. The "if you shall" in that verse shows that it's up to us & not God.
---Rickey on 11/8/11


Gordon, you make a big big mistake. In order to give man his rights over God you strip God of His Soverignty. His deity, His very nature. Don't you realize who the God of Scripture is?
How can God who has all power, stop been God who has all power? Just not possible. He never stops been God so that man can do what he wants and be gods themselves.
God does what He wants. You changed the meaning of His very nature when you said,
"The fact is, is that "the Father is trying" to draw all men to Himself through His Son" Where in that passage does it say that? Trying? That is all in your mind because you cannot accept the facts. Man has no power over God. Never will. He is a sinner Gordon.
---Mark_V. on 11/8/11


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---josef on 11/6/11
All the Word, and I believe the Word. I do not claim to fully understand, and the doctrine of election is relatively new to me. If God says it, I believe it, and He will, being faithful, lead into all Truth. He began the good work and will complete it, being the author and finisher of our faith, the Alpha and the Omega. He renews our minds.
---chria9396 on 11/6/11


first its not God's will that any should perish but that all come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Jesus paid the price for everyone. At some point everyone gets called few answer.to answer you ave to accept what Jesus did on the cross acc ept it if you refuse that is your free will and that sends you to Hell
---Diane_Gilland on 11/6/11


"How could my sinful heart change itself to want to obey? In slavery, my will was not free." Bill_willa6989 AMEN!

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." Matthew 13:16,17

"All things are delivered unto Me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27
---christan on 11/6/11


If you really had freewill you could say NO!
If you could say no, then this cannot be!

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Someone who has freewill, please explain to me.
How Christ the lord of Heaven and earth, can say this?
I will also add not one of these knees will be forces.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Peace
---TheSeg on 11/6/11


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John 6:64,65: "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him."
He who does the Will of the Father always, tuyrns around and says to his close disciples:

John 6:67:"Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"


Those who do the will of God know Christ,
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, ...
John 7:17.
---Nana on 11/6/11


Jerry//Please provide a scripture that shows a change in the law together with the words "new covenant".

Yes, both Old & New covenants were made with Israel. Howbeit the Old was made with Israel alone and did not include Gentiles except proselytes.

2Co 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Sorry but I reject your view that the New covenant is but a re-hash of the Old with the only thing that has changed is the location.
---lee1538 on 11/6/11


Christan, No, those two Statements do not contradict one another. The fact is, is that the Father is trying to draw all men to Himself through His Son. But, as we all have free-will, we all do not have to respond in the affirmative to His Call to Salvation. It's NOT saying that "Because the Father draws a man to Himself, the man will, therefore, definitely respond affirmatively." It's saying that "IN ORDER for a man to have the chance to respond affirmatively to Salvation, the Father must be drawing him to make the Choice." That does not mean a man WILL. But, GOD is willing that none perish. But, many will reject His Call.
---Gordon on 11/6/11


No its not a contradiction!
One is clearly in the bible and the other is not.

Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me.

Deny himself. No freewill there!
Or
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.
And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Looks like we should be preaching come!
And not you must!
No freewill here either.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I guess it depends on what youre preaching!
Php 1:18
---TheSeg on 11/6/11


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Jesus did say, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him," in John 6:44. I notice now how Jesus says, "the Father who sent Me". If it was so much about what we in our own human "free will" could do, would Jesus have needed to be sent?

Who should be worshiped and get the glory? Should I glorify my human free will for making the right choice? Our Apostle Paul says, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

How could my sinful heart change itself to want to obey? In slavery, my will was not free.
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/6/11


We do have free will. That is why we must witness and try to get sinners under the preaching of the gospel. The Holy Spirit does convict and draw people to accept Christ. A sinners heart must be open to Christ, otherwise the sinner rejects Christ. God gives all a chance to be saved.
---shira4368 on 11/6/11


"Isn't it a contradiction when one says "you can choose to accept Christ by your freewill" Yes.
As Jesus said "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." Jhn 6:65
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." Jer 13:23
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, renewed, regenerated, and restored to lost awareness from above, he cannot see, discern, discover, or experience the kingdom of God." Jhn 3:3
---josef on 11/6/11


Bill-willa, what you said is very true.

"Well, my will needed "some" freeing, first, before I could offer myself to Jesus,"

You are absolutely correct. The will of lost man is in bondage to sin, bondage to the enemy, for they are all children of wrath. They need to be made free by God from their bondage of sin first. Once they are free from bondage of sin, they become slaves of Christ. So there is no free will. A will that is free has no motives, desires, or inclinations of any kind. So how could the will decide what to do? The lost have motives, and desires and they are not for God.
The believers also have motives and desires but they are for God, their will either is not free.
---Mark_V. on 11/5/11


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Jesus also said, "Whosoever will let him come."

How our free will fits in with God's sovereign election is a mystery we will never understand this side of the World to Come--and maybe then we will have better things to occupy our minds.

Only God Himself knows how it works.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/4/11


I believe the following verse in Ephesians is clear that God chose us even before the foundation of the earth.

1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

God for His own sovereign glory created the earth and those who would glorify Him.
---lee1538 on 11/4/11


Well, my will needed "some" freeing, first, before I could offer myself to Jesus, for Him to be the Judge of if I was being real and honest with Him or not.
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/4/11


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