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Trinity In the Old Testament

Where is the "trinity" taught in the Old Testament?

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 ---1st_cliff on 11/4/11
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scott, any man-made book that excludes verses from the Holy Scripture cannot be called The Holy Bible, but instead they should be called Unholy books. For example, my words above are true and holy, now read the following, newer version: "scott, any man-made book that excludes verses from the Holy Scripture cannot be called The Holy Bible, but instead they should be called Unholy books. See the difference? And such are like the new Unholy Books on the market, disguised as Holy Bibles.
---Eloy on 11/11/11


1 John 5:7

"The Revised Version omits this verse, and does not even mention it in the margin, and none of the newer translations includes it. It is quite certain that it does not belong to the original text."

"The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them."

"None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome's original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it."

Bible translator Dr. William Barclay
---scott on 11/10/11


"JW's say that as 'Trinity' does not occur in Scripture the Trinity is therefore not a reality." Warwick

Jehovah's Witnesses reject the trinity, not just because the word is absent from scripture but, more importantly, because the teaching of a three-in-one, multi-personal God is not found in scripture, OT or NT.

Why does Warwick attempt the use of analogies without a little fact checking?

"I pointed out the word 'rape' does not occur in the Hebrew OT either but..." Warwick

Really?

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it, the city will be captured...and the women raped." Zech 14:2, NIV, ESV, NLT

Whoopsey.
---scott on 11/10/11


I would like to know what kind of bibles people are reading, in order to incorrectly say that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, when in truth it is, it is the Greek word "treiseis". lit.Gk: "Because three being who bear witness in the heaven: the Father, the Word, and his Holy Ghost, and these the three in being: also three being who bear witness upon the earth: his Spirit, and his water, and his blood, and the triune his in being." I John 5:7,8.
---Eloy on 11/10/11


1st_Cliff,

On second thought, maybe Champaign is a better pairing. (Though my Sommelier skills are are not what I'd like them to be). It sounds as if you have a lot to celebrate with the happy new life that you've carved out for your self.

Cheers.

BTW (as related to you before): "No matter how flat you make a pancake, there are still two sides." The great sage and scholar, Dr. Phil.
---scott on 11/9/11




Cliff, your questions are already answered. The NT acknowledges the personhood, and fellowship of the Holy Spirit. "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" 2 Corinthians 13:14.

The Holy Spirit was given for anyone who desires to be "Filled with the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:4, Ephesians 5:18 .

Biblically speaking blasphemy is an attitude of disrespect against the character of God. Matthew 12:31,32 shows blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. He is therefore God. If Jesus thought the Holy Spirit some impersonal force from God He would not have said the Holy Spirit could be blasphemed, but He didn't did He?
---Warwick on 11/9/11


Warwick , .... the priveledged few, who God talks to personally! So how can you "outsiders" ever understand.Huh?
Why would he have to study if everything is magically revealed??
---1st_cliff on 11/8/11

You've seen behind the facade. You must submit Cliff,sumit to doc-logic.
This carefully constructed superiority is a front for the opposite.
Note in weak moments, out slip sketchy achievements, name drop, hobby drop, questions diverting or aligning with jews,muslims etc,etc. Political tactics for political means. Seldom scripture. Never sheep gathering. Rather the opposite,scattering.
Jer 23:1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
---Trav on 11/9/11


Warwick, So here's my point
You cite 11 scriptures that "enlighten" you.
Why in the several thousand years when God was dealing solely with His "chosen" people He did not "enlighten" them as to His multi personality (triune) nature?
but emphasized His singular nature (Deut.6.4) to separate Himself from multi personalitied gods like Baal!
Scriptures that merely "hint" (or seem to) don't really cut it!
---1st_cliff on 11/9/11


Cliff, I do feel privileged that I can walk free, my sins forgiven by Jesus.

I also feel privileged Jesus said His words will never pass away Matthew 24:35. What a privilege to read the Creator's words, whenever I wish.

I also feel priviledged Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, He who:

Assures us Ephesians 1:14
Comforts us John 14:16
Convicts us John 16:18
Teaches us John 14:26
Guides us Romans 8:14
Reveals John 16:14
Supplies power Acts 1:8
Speaks to us John 16:13
Helps and intercedss Romans 8:26
Gives Spiritual gifts 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
Confirms our salvation Ephesians 1:13

But all this is a priviledge freely given by the Lord. Nothing for me to boast about. And yours to choose or refuse!
---Warwick on 11/9/11


Cluny: The 'missing' books from the OT, are they included in the Hebrew Bible? It appears that Jesus and the apostles read and quoted from the Hebrew OT, so if the books were there (Hebrew) then they should be in ours. If not, we have to reconsider on what grounds we would include them
---Peter on 11/9/11




Cluny, more to the point can you show us where Jesus or the apostles referred to or quoted from the 'missing' books you refer to?
---Warwick on 11/9/11


\\Your smugness about your "complete" Bible is appalling.\\

And your glibness about how you blithely accept a mutilated Bible based on nothing but the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees who rejected Jesus two generations AFTER the founding of the Church is NOT appalling?

\\Having read only bits and pieces of them I view them only as "factual" narrative books. \\

In other words, you admit you know very little about them.

\\However, if you can dispel this with a passage, I would be happy to retract these statements and alter my opinion on these books.\\

We all know what opinions are like. Everybody's got one and they are all filled with the same stinky stuff.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/11


Cliff, my comments were not about words being Anglicized.

The point is-JW's say that as 'Trinity' does not occur in Scripture the Trinity is therefore not a reality. I pointed out the word 'rape' does not occur in the Hebrew OT either but the act is described there. Therefore the lack of a one word description does not detract from the reality of rape, nor Trinity.
---Warwick on 11/9/11


Scott, Spoken just like my loving relatives!
We have an ongoing case in court today of a family (Muslims) who drowned their 3 beautiful daughters ,called an "Honor killing", because they refused to knuckle under!
With my hands tied behind my back, my 2 brothers, daughter and son raised their rifles and fired, I died only to them , Jehovah must be so proud of them Huh?
Christ died to save lives, not to assasinate them!
Be careful Scott, spies watch your every move! (I know) Orwell 84!
---1st_cliff on 11/9/11


Warwick,Pharisees believed that they alone were the "privileged" ones chosen by God to rightly interpret the law as they had "spiritual discernment".
So naturally he expounded this position and applied it to his new place as head of the Christian community!
You are the one who says things are magically revealed (my definition) to you from outer space (Holy Spirit you call it) in which case is there really any need of a bible when all things are revealed to you personally??
Does this also apply to the illiterate??
---1st_cliff on 11/9/11


OTOH, it is true that most Protestants have taken away several books from the OT and have a Bible with a great big hole in it.
---Cluny on 11/9/11

Your smugness about your "complete" Bible is appalling.

Can you show me one definitive passage from one of our "missing" books that illustrate why they should be included in our Bible?

Having read only bits and pieces of them I view them only as "factual" narrative books. They are not given to doctrinal truth.

However, if you can dispel this with a passage, I would be happy to retract these statements and alter my opinion on these books.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/9/11


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Perhaps 1st_Cliff would enjoy a nice Chianti to go with what Peter says he has returned to. (2 Peter 2:22)
---scott on 11/9/11


-1st_cliff on 11/8/11

Is the Son also God?
Is the Holy Spirit also God?
---Francis on 11/9/11


Cliff, there is no privilege in Christianity. We can only be saved when we come to understand what wretched sinners we are.

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Jesus promised He would send the Holy Spirit. Whether we accept Him, and His fellowship,is our choice. No privilege involved. No inner circles here!

Where in Scripture are we told that all will be revealed magically?
---Warwick on 11/9/11


Nowhere in scripture does it mention "God's Organization"

while we are at it:

Where in the Bible are Pioneers, Auxiliary Pioneers, District Overseers, Circuit Overseers, Bethelites, and Kingdom Halls?
---aka on 11/9/11


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\\stop messing with the new ones that have been translated interpreted wrongly,added too taken way from and some are a complete mish mash of the gospel.\\

Which translations are "interpreted wrongly" and are a "complete mish mash," Carla?

OTOH, it is true that most Protestants have taken away several books from the OT and have a Bible with a great big hole in it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/11


Francis, Since you asked I will elaborate.
1st, God doesn't need 2 helpers, He's quite capable alone... He is a "sharer" 3 children are born every second sharing this wonderful thing called "life".
He begot (only begotten) a Son to share in creating and all things were created together ,father and son!
How do you create an earth and life??? with Holy power (Holy Spirit power) not in a laboratory!
No hocus-pocus 3-in-one religious jargon.
Only God (YHVH) has immortality and could not give His life, so the Son took his place!So we can enjoy life forever!
---1st_cliff on 11/8/11


Warwick , You're back to this "US" We, who are in the inner circle, the priveledged few, who God talks to personally! So how can you "outsiders" ever understand.Huh?
Sounds like the "race track tout" who knows it all (But they are the poorest ones at the track)
Paul told Timothy to "study" to show himself approved, not funny feelings up and down the spine and inner voices!
BTW Study meant the OT!
Why would he have to study if everything is magically revealed??
---1st_cliff on 11/8/11


Scott, A little word of caution here,if I may be so bold, I can question Warwick's special "insight" but you as a member of the WTBT Society also claim that they are the only "channel" God is communicating through today!
Is there a difference?
Once upon a time I also shared that view!
Nowhere in scripture does it mention "God's Organization"
Warwick, Jesus in an Anglicised word also!
---1st_cliff on 11/8/11


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Carla, the fact that ' Trinity does not occur in Scripture does not mean the Trinity is not a reality. It is just a convenient English word used to describe a Biblical reality.

From my studies the word 'rape' does not occur in the Hebrew OT, but does in the English translation, because it is a word which describes a reality. See Deuteronomy 22:25. Maybe others can point out more such words?

Interestingly 'Jehovah' is not a Biblical title or name. It is a human construct.
---Warwick on 11/8/11


"Such things are, as Scripture says, spiritually discerned." Warwick

What "Scripture" says that the trinity, or a multi-personal God is "spiritually discerned?

The LDS could just as easily say (and to some degree they do) that belief in the golden tablets from the angel Moroni, the planet Kolob, etc., need to be "spiritually discerned" because no proof exists.

This is end-game apologetics wherein Warwick is unable to answer simple questions based on scripture and the doctrine's dubious and lengthy development so he resorts to one of two positions: 1. "It's a mystery", or 2. "Only we have special insight to see what is, in reality, not represented in scripture."
---scott on 11/8/11


There is no "trinity" this word is an added lie, there is only ONE the father ONE son and ONE Holy Spirit all are part of the God-head.

I don't know what seperates us all when we all read the same book....jokes! well I guess one should be searching for the most original copy at hand and stop messing with the new ones that have been translated interpreted wrongly,added too taken way from and some are a complete mish mash of the gospel.
---Carla on 11/8/11


Cliff, I have been reading your posts for a few years and believe your inability to comprehend the Trinity shows your JW indoctrination is alive and well.

Such things are, as Scripture says, spiritually discerned. This leaves you at a distinct disadvantage as you do not accept the personhood, or fellowship of the Holy Spirit. It is He who reveals, teaches, reminds, guides, speaks to us and gives spiritual gifts etc. Without Him we are like blind men stumbling around.

A dose of healthy scepticism is good but that which you express leaves you in the dark. It is not about study, qualifications or intelligence, but about attitude, a willingness to submit, and a living, faith, but not a blind faith.
---Warwick on 11/8/11


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\\Cliff, you simply do not understand, it is not 3 different beings, but 3 aspects of 1 \\

"Aspect" and "mode" are precisely the wrong terms used by the ancient heresy of Sabellian Modalism, now called Oneness.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/8/11


No Francis,I was referring to your post 1stJn.5.7 !
---1st_cliff on 11/8/11
You cannot always establish anything on just one verse. SO I had to give more veres

I am not sure what you elieve.
I believe that the father is God.
I believe that Jesus is the Son and is also God
I believe that the holy ghost is also God

and I believe that these are not three Gods but ONE.

Do you mind sharing what ou believe?
---francis on 11/8/11



The flesh died. When Jesus resurrected He came out with a Glorified body. He came unto them through closed doors.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/8/11


No Francis,I was referring to your post 1stJn.5.7 !
---1st_cliff on 11/8/11


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Francis, It doesn't say that (one god) whereas the scriptures do say that my wife and I are "one flesh" (no guessing game here!
---1st_cliff on 11/7/11

Now sure what version of the bible you arereading. But my KJV says this:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

1 Corinthians 8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge:
---francis on 11/7/11


Francis, It doesn't say that (one god) whereas the scriptures do say that my wife and I are "one flesh" (no guessing game here!
---1st_cliff on 11/7/11


Lawrence Nemeth , **there's only one God and Jesus Christ is his name**
Lawrence, define "immortality" and apply it to Jesus (God alone has immortality) and describe how an immortal being can die!
Shedding a body is not "dieing"
---1st_cliff on 11/7/11


Warwick, it's true I once was JW , but not all their beliefs are false.
You will say you are not Catholic yet you subscribe to their main doctrines IE Trinity, literal torture of hell fire, and immortality of the human soul , does that make you Catholic???
Labels are not necessarily accurate, what I believe, I have found through 30 years of personal study not from some "ism"
I too was once atheistic, but now a healthy skeptic.
I don't believe anything I hear and only half of what I see!
---1st_cliff on 11/7/11


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Jack. What you have from God is good, & there's More for you.
Acts 2 v 38 Fulfills Matt. 29 v 19. ONLY ONE GOD & JESUS CHRIST IS HIS NAME.
There is No one found in the scriptures that was baptized in the titles. In the titles you go down a dry sinner & come up a wet sinner.
In Jesus name, Yes. You have His name applied. There Is No other salvation of God out side from Acts 2 v 38. Acts 2 v 38, The Very Same As The Early Church. One Lord, One Faith & One water baptism.
The devil 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 says there is other salvations, & that Is where the Man - made apostate trinity came from, beginning with the trin - r c c.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/7/11


Jesus is called "God the Father" because he is, Isaiah 9:6+ John 10:30+ 14:9, Jesus is called "the Son from God" because he is, Isaiah 7:14+ 8:10+ 9:6+ Matthew 1:18,20-23, Jesus is called "the Holy Ghost" because he is, Job 4:15-17+ Daniel 3:25+ John 20:22,23+ II Corinthians 3:17. Jesus is God Almighty. Revelation 1:8.
---Eloy on 11/7/11


Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost

We are made in his image and are also 3 (body, spirit, soul) and yet just one being.
---JackB on 11/7/11


Without first learning basic math, a person has a very difficult time learning advanced math, such as Trigonometry.
Has anyone ever wondered to whom was God talking in the beginning?
Contrary to some beliefs, this is not simple addition.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Isaiah 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
---micha9344 on 11/7/11


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Francis, 1Jn.5.7 " these three are one.....one what?
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11

ONE GOD
---francis on 11/7/11


Cliff, the song goes-you can take the boy from the country, but you can't take the country from the boy.

You were once an indoctrinated JW, but you left. The indoctrination is still with you. You strugge as the nature of God is spiritually discerned.

An atheist insisted no atheist could become Christian. I gave him addresses of two scientists, once atheist now Christian. He wouldn't contact them because he 'knew' they were wrong! The power of indoctrination!

All earthly illustratioins are flawed regarding spiritual things. However the Trinity can be likened to the universe-1 whole comprising 3 inseparable parts-space-matter-time. We never confuse the 3 but the 3 are 1.
---Warwick on 11/7/11


Cliff, you simply do not understand, it is not 3 different beings, but 3 aspects of 1 God, just as there are 3 corners in 1 triangle. Therefore it would be nonsensical to say "our" rather than "me" when speaking of nimself. Jesus is called the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, because there is only one God. The liguisitics Jesus uses in his Scripture is not for himself, but it is for mankind that he has made. He put on flesh and he reveals himself mightily to those whom are pure in heart. Does the branch say to its olive, we? or yet the root say to its atem, our? So too the one God says, I AM.
---Eloy on 11/7/11


For Surely Truly Not in The Old Testament & Surely Truly Not in The New Testament either. Scriptures for those that do believe in the Man - made apostate trinity, Prov. 14 v 12, Matt.15 v's 9 & 14, John 10 v 1, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15, The trin - family body is here beginning with the r c c , Rev.17 v's 4 - 6. Then aft the judgement, to the lake of fire.
People believe a lie more than The Truth, that's why there is many more of the Man - made trin apostate churches in the world( broad is the way that leads to destruction hell & be many to go in thereat ) fewer - less of The One God Jesus name Apostolic Churches, strait is the gate & narrow is the way, be but few to find it.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/7/11


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Francis, 1Jn.5.7 " these three are one.....one what?
My wife and I are one, we are not the same person!
**The Angel of the Lord which is God**
So now we have an "Angel" as part of your trinity???
Like Alice (in Wonderland) said "It gets curiouser and curiouser"
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11


In the book of Genesis we beging to see that our ONE GOD is three ( NOT THREE GODS). The bible says Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,

Some will see "God" in that verse as plural based on hebrew translation. Others without Hebrew translation MUST see "US" as plural.

In the OT we have God father, we have the SPIRIT OF GOD which si also God, and we have The Angel of God/ the Lord ( which is God)

We have The OT also telling us that "GOD" (plural) based on genesis 1:26 is ONE.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
---Francis on 11/6/11


Warwick, **God....is one but 3 persons not 3 gods**
It's this type of reasoning that to me sounds like,slight-of-hand double talk! Why??
3 persons whom you have personally named "each" person IE =God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, now ask your grandchild (if you have one) to count how many Gods there are mentioned.
My grand daughter has 3 first names, is she a triune girl?
It has absolutely nothing to do with "spiritual discernment" it's illogical,unreasonable except in pagan mythology that defies reason!
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11


Francis, **If it is plural it cannot be one**
Why then do -NO- translators render Gen.1.1 as "In the beginning Gods created..."?
Elohim is plural!
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11
If you think that I am saying that there are THREE GODS then you are wrong. I am saying that there is ONE GOD. That ONE GOD is God the father, God the SON adn God the holy SPIRIT

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
---Francis on 11/6/11


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1st Cliff, you need to remember Francis is SDA. I know first hand what SDA's teach and believe because I grew up in a SDA home.

SDA's distort and pervert God's Word, and hold to the writings of Ellen G. White, even though Ellen White has been proven many times to be a FALSE PROPHET.

A perfect example of this is on these blogs Francis wrote "NO CHRISTIAN LIBRARY IS COMPLETE UNLES THEY INCLUDE THE WRITINGS OF ELLEN G. WHITE!"

Francis insists on trying to keep the LAW and rejects GOD'S GRACE.

From a recent study of the Book of Titus, I have learned those who are under GOD'S GRACE, are held to a much HIGHER STANDARD, than those who insist on being under the LAW!
---Rob on 11/6/11


I do not know where the word " TRINITY" comes from.
Maybe it comes from the same place " RAPTURE" and " BIBLE" comes from since none of these words are in the bible.

A christian never has to use the word trinity is he does not want to.
He may says God-which could refer to the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost.
He could say God the father, God the Son, or God the holy Ghost.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

That is the mystery of God, that God could manifest in three different person

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE
---Francis on 11/6/11


Cliff, "Such things are foolishness to him, (he who rejects the fellowship of the Holy Spirit) and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned"-1 Corinthians 2:14. Spiritually blind by choice.

John 14:8,9 Philip asks to see the Father. Jesus answers "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." He can say this because "He is the image of the invisible God" Colossians 1:15. If there were 3 visible Gods He could not say this!

God is not man but eternal spirit who is 1 but 3 persons, not 3 Gods.

I believe Genesis 3:22 is good evidence of the Trinity in the OT.
---Warwick on 11/6/11


Francis, **If it is plural it cannot be one**
Why then do -NO- translators render Gen.1.1 as "In the beginning Gods created..."?
Elohim is plural!
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11


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trinity is not taught in either OT or NT ...trinity god is adopted from pagans and given by rcc ...those who worship a trinity god serve rcc whether by membership in its religion or simply by association by being her daughter REV 17

Apostles never greeted or mentioned ANY other GOD in dozens of verses

Christ never mentions this "other god" either

Christ is SIMPLY ONE with the FATHER: John 10:30, 38, 14:20, 17:21

True Believers are ONE with Father and Christ ONLY - Christ never mentions being one with ANY OTHER GOD John 17:11

CHOOSE TRUTH of Gods Word rather than LIES of the ministers of Satan
---Rhonda on 11/6/11


David, We all have them on occasion,(in my case it's a Seniors moment lol)
Believe it or not ,no one on here is infallible ,(not even me) tho some may argue otherwise!
As iron sharpens iron, we can all learn something from each other.
That's why I posed the question.
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11


---1st_cliff on 11/5/11

I think you missunderstood my post. So let me help you

(Elohim plural) mens MORE THAN ONE. It may be two or three. BUt it MUST be more thnan one or it cannot be PLURAL

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us...
Once we see "US" we know it is plural. It has to be more than one. At this time you cannot say two or three. All you know is that it is more than ONE.

Gen1.1 "In the beginning God (Elohim plural) Because it is PLURAL you have the POSSIBILITY of MORE TNAN TWO
but if it is plural it cannot be one.

P S No one here has suggested three Gods
ONE GOD is what trinitarians belive THREE MANIFESTATIONS
---Francis on 11/6/11


God made man in His own image. Man has three basic persons > father, child, and mother. There is more than one person in the human race who all came from one man, Adam. From Adam started Eve . . . making two persons. So, one can be made up of more than one person.

Jesus is "the Son of God". A human father has a human son. God our Father has Jesus.

It's like how gold can be in the form of an image, but gold is elsewhere, also. God is Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit . . . all personal because "God is love" (1 John 4:8 & 16) . . . Family caring and sharing love with more than one Person of this one love (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/6/11


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cliff, eloy knows all the answers. Please do me a favor and don't ask him anything. After all, he is an instructor who knows everything and expects people to believe him.
---shira4368 on 11/6/11


Eloy, You're not being consistent here.
There are 4 mentioned here in Isa.9 If the first three represents a "triune god" what does the 4th one represent??(Prince of Peace)a "quattro-god"
Look at the structure of Isa.48.16 "HIS Spirit sent Me" If the three were one why would it be "HIS" Spirit and not "our" Spirit"???
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11


cliff, As I have instructed many times before, "If you do not want to know, then do not ask." For you do a disservice by asking questions, when you do not really want to know the answer.
---Eloy on 11/6/11


cliff, Read it again: "Yhwh said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool. For to us a child is born, to us a 1=Son is given: and His name will be called Wonderful, 2=Counselor, The Mighty God, 3=The Everlasting Father (=Triune God), The Prince of Peace. Hearken to me, O Jacob and Israel, my called: I he, I the first and I the last. Come you all near to me, hear you all this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there I: and now 1=the Lord Yhwh, and 2=his Spirit, has 3=sent me (=Triune God)." Ps.110:1+ Is.9:6+ 48:12,16.
---Eloy on 11/6/11


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1st Cliff, "TRINITY", in and of itself, is not taught, as it were, in the Old Testament. But, there are allusions to the Persons of the Trinity in the Old Testament. A first clue would be my oft repeated Verses of GENESIS 1:26-27. "And GOD said, 'Let US (plural) make man in OUR (plural) Image, after OUR (plural) Likeness:...". Now, let's start with that. Do you see that GOD, here, in these Verses, cannot be "One Person". If He WERE One Person, He would not say 'Let US...', He would rather've said "Let ME make man in MY own Image". Nor was He One Person talking with the angels, because angels were not given the power to create. So, this is our first clue from Scripture to start building upon.
---Gordon on 11/6/11


"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32,33

It is the act of unbelief in Christ as the Son of God who was prophesied in the OT by the prophets from Genesis to Malachi that will send a the soul to the Lake of Fire, and deservingly so. Jesus means what He says about a wicked soul denying Him as the Son God before men.
---christan on 11/6/11


David, Matthew is not in the OT
---1st_cliff on 11/5/11

You got me!!!
You made it a trick question and you didn't even know it.
My Barney Fife moment, I have them on occasion.
---David on 11/6/11


Warwick.Isn't "Let the bible interpret the bible" one of your pet expressions?
Consider, No translators translate Gen1.1 as "Gods (plural) created..." even though Elohim is plural!
Not plural in number but plural in majesty, else it would be "Gods created"
"Us" is also plural, but not supported by a number, therefore the same rule would apply! Else you have more than one God!....Deut.6.4
---1st_cliff on 11/6/11


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David, Matthew is not in the OT
---1st_cliff on 11/5/11


Eloy, Your citings say nothing about a "triad" "three in one" or anything resembling a trinity!
For 4,000 years God said nothing to "His" people about a triune godhead .
On the other hand Baal had multiple personalities!
---1st_cliff on 11/5/11


Trinitarians seem to think that God expected His people to come up with a trinity doctrine by "deduction"
Anything as important as that God spells out in great detail,the Jews of the OT were strict monotheists and the remnant of Jews today have no conception of a triune God. While waiting for Elijah's return they in no way believe he is a god!
---1st_cliff on 11/5/11


\\What you're suggesting is the Father is an angel, the Son is an angel and the Holy Spirit is an angel.\\

I"m not saying that at all.

I AM saying that this is a figure, with the three Persons represented by Angels.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/5/11


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I see Dathan (aka 1st cliff) is still questioning God's authority. How sad!
---Leon on 11/5/11


Genesis 3:22 "Then the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil..."

I believe this Scripture shows the Lord speaking to the other members of the Godhead. The Trinity in unity.

Some may say God was speaking to the angels however that raises a problem. See Genesis 1:26 'Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."' If "us" includes angels then they were also Creators, and we are also made in their likeness. But this idea is not consistent with Scripture.

Using the principle of Occam's razor let us consider the simplest possibility-that God is speaking to the other members of the Trinity.
---Warwick on 11/5/11


Eloy, At least cite scripture accurately. It's not "The" Mighty God ,"The" Wonderful Counselor,or "The" Prince of peace!
Plus all these names were for future "Will be called".
Jesus was not at that time any of these names!
Pre-Advent, no one was taught triune, triad, or trinity of gods!
Except, perhaps Egyptian mythology
---1st_cliff on 11/5/11


Where is the "trinity" taught in the Old Testament?"

In the very first three verses of Genesis, if you bother to read.

THE FATHER:
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

THE HOLY SPIRIT:
Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

& THE SON:
GENESIS 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
---christan on 11/4/11


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cliff, you asked for this before: "Yhwh said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool. For to us a child is born, to us a Son is given: and His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Hearken to me, O Jacob and Israel, my called: I he, I the first and I the last. Come you all near to me, hear you all this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there I: and now the Lord Yhwh, and his Spirit, has sent me." Ps.110:1+ Is.9:6+ 48:12,16.
---Eloy on 11/5/11


(Matthew 28:19)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
---David on 11/5/11


Not really Cluny,
What you're suggesting is the Father is an angel, the Son is an angel and the Holy Spirit is an angel. We have 3 individual angels that somehow need to be fused into one big angel to meet your belief of three in one???
To borrow a phrase from Alice in Wonderland "It gets curiouser and curiouser"
---1st_cliff on 11/5/11


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