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How To Deceive Yourself

Scripture teaches we are not to allow ourselves to be deceived. What are some of the ways people are being deceived, also how can a person avoid being deceived?

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 ---Rob on 11/5/11
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Kathr5543
Rocky, so very defensive and angry
Wrong again. I am not angry I just use words appropriate to the reprof. Another bad assumption and wrongful attack.
Did the man who died next to Jesus have time to become a better person?
How is that relevant to the discussion?
Again, are we becoming better People or are we NEW CREATURES, maturing IN CHRIST?
So? If you are maturing in Christ you ARE becoming a better person. And if you are saved and becoming a better person, odds are you are maturing in Christ. QED.
It doesnt insult God that Ive been influenced by Hindu Philosophy, or other history, philosophy, psychology, and science I read. He knows where my heart is.
---Rocky on 11/10/11


The reason people don't go to heaven Rocky is because like yourself, you deny that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to heaven.
--kathr4453 11/8/11
And the lies start AGAIN. I challenge you to show anywhere I wrote that salvation comes through any other than Jesus.
--Rocky 11/9/11
I am still waiting for you to try to show you were not lying in your above statement. You have posted several times since but not supported your wrongful attack.
---Rocky on 11/10/11


SEEMS ROCKY has a problem Accusing many people here on line of the same thing he has accused me of.
--kathr4453 11/10/11
Yes I've shown others are lying and distorting like you. However it's not a problem of mine but of yours and theirs, because it's the truth. None of you have shown me wrong, instead you all ignore my requests to prove your lies and derogatory attacks, often posting new lies or more wrongful attacks to hide your errors. Your post is once again proof. You make no effort to disprove what I wrote, or prove what you wrote before, instead making another wrongful attack to deflect attention and hide your embarrassing position. Shame on you.. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
---Rocky on 11/10/11


Many believe... they can earn their way to heaven... So they avoid the CROSS and try to find another way in
--kathr 11/10/11
MORE LIES AND DISTORTION. Neither Peter or I suggested or wrote about "avoiding the CROSS and trying to find another way in". Shame on you again. That's an obvious lie and you an inveterate liar. We never wrote anything close to what you reported. Like I wrote before, I can't believe the number of people on this site that prove by their repeated lying, distortions, and wrongful personal attacks that they don't walk with Jesus. Christians obey Him, maybe with an occasional slip. But your repeated lies and false attacks prove your heart is hard and wrong.
---Rocky on 11/10/11


Kathr, you are up to no good again. "Your Calvinistic background" it gave you away so fast. You are caugh with your hands on the cookie jar again. Only you could come out with that one.
You have allowed yourself to be deceived. And remember, genuine believers cannot be decieved. So something is very wrong there.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/11




Tony, if you are going to use my name please add some letters or numbers so people won't think you are me.
---Tony on 11/10/11


Romans 3:14-16
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:


MarkV, you always seem to fall into this description whenever kathr is discussing with another.

I find your two faced approach here, as a woman who runs from house to house gossiping. Are you sure you are not a woman? Something tells me you are. Your catty way of always running to cause more trouble is either a woman or you are just an evil person.

I don't see anything wrong with her question. And if anyone else said it, you too would have been all over it with your Calvinistic background.
---Tony on 11/10/11


--Shira
What is wrong with you? again I ask what is wrong with you?
Why are you getting upset and attacking me for asking questions about your post?
--JIM 11/9/11
Rocky...I cannot believe that you do not understand that Jesus has paid the total price to those who believe.
I cannot believe that you are distorting things AGAIN.
--Shira4368 11/8/11
You are confrotational with everyone.

Rocky when i see your reply here it can only mean one thing, you have totally no clue about the weight of your own words whilst you insist on weighing everyone elses words to th milligram. --?
---andy3996 on 11/9/11


SEEMS ROCKY has a problem Accusing many people here on line of the same thing he has accused me of.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11


Rocky and Peter. WOW Rocky, so very defensive and angry, and You say THAT is becoming a better person...no self control, thinks evil, etc...Hummm...

You know, many people come on and read this or that, without reading ALL of your every words Rocky, and just like me, someone else may have seen the exact same thing...JUST THOSE very words alone.

Did the man who died next to Jesus have time to become a better person?

Again, are we becoming better People or are we NEW CREATURES, maturing IN CHRIST?

New Birth vs Rebirth??? Do you know the difference?

I still say you have been greatly influenced by Hindu Philosophy.

This insults you? Deal with it. It insults God!
---kathr5543 on 11/10/11


Kathr: 'better people' The way Rocky writes, I take it he means better Christians. At least that is what his post looks like to me.

We must also remember that to be a better Christian, we must do what Christ says,and some of those are physical actions -remember the parable of the sheep and the goats.

Rocky does have a point - I may not understand it (though I hope I did), but let all try to understand the point of others
---Peter on 11/9/11
Peter, I understood what you all are saying exactly. Many believe by being good people and doing good things.."sheep/goats", they can EARN their way to heaven.

So they avoid the CROSS and try to find another way in..
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11




Rocky, I agree with you on this one. Kathr is way off base again. While I disagree with you concerning the authenticity of Scripture, to this day you never said what she said you did. Kathr is a woman with a lot of venom. She first tells us about how holy she is, and then how God spoke to her 30 years ago, and then speaks about Christ been in her, and then turns around and lies and puts words you never say. All that talk about God and her holiness goes down the drain. I waited for two or three years and there has been no change as of yet. Try not to answer her, she will find dirt where there is none. Like in the Bible, it is a warning.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/11


Rocky and Peter.

We have been Created IN CHRIST unto Good works, that God has before ordained that we should walk in.

We walkiin HIS WORKS, not our own.

It's our job to find out what THOSE works are.

They are the only ones that count! All else is wood, hay and stubble.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/11


So what is it Rocky, getting to heaven because we make ourselves better people, or Jesus Christ?
--kathr4453
What a stupid question whose only intent is to distort, deceive, and make a wrongful personal attack. My meaning is clearly explained by my past posts just on this thread let alone all the times I have repeated it on other threads. You should be ashamed of yourself for your repeated wrongful attacks.
You may disagree with me on doctrinal points but that it no excuse or explanation for your repeated distortion of what I write. How can you claim to be a Christian with your repeated misstatements and wrongful attacks?
---Rocky on 11/10/11


Kathr: 'better people' The way Rocky writes, I take it he means better Christians. At least that is what his post looks like to me.

We must also remember that to be a better Christian, we must do what Christ says,and some of those are physical actions -remember the parable of the sheep and the goats.

Rocky does have a point - I may not understand it (though I hope I did), but let all try to understand the point of others
---Peter on 11/9/11


The reason many may not get into Heaven is they do little to become better people.
---Rocky on 11/8/11


You said it...I didn't.


So what is it Rocky, getting to heaven because we make ourselves better people, or Jesus Christ?
---kathr4453 on 11/9/11


Rocky: I understand why you were upset about my comment in 'million year development' (11/4).

I REALLY did not intent to be offensive though, and I truly apologize for upsetting you.

I was trying to write that if Warwick you and I could chat about this without placing accusing statement, we could find a way to either agree or agree that our differences are not important

Again, I apologize for what I wrote and for upsetting/angering you
---Peter on 11/9/11


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The reason people don't go to heaven Rocky is because like yourself, you deny that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to heaven.
--kathr4453 11/8/11
And the lies start AGAIN. I challenge you to show anywhere I wrote that salvation comes through any other than Jesus. I have written the opposite, that he is the only way, many times.
PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND ATTACK ME FOR YOUR WORDS.
Why do so many on this site lie this way? Unbelievable.
Jesus told us many things we need to do, but did not give us complete directions on how to accomplish all those things. Instead he gave us free will, a sound mind, and the Holy Spirit to guide us.
---Rocky on 11/9/11


//I'm glad LeeJ You're finally beginning to understand.

Perhaps there will be an opportunity to discuss the other TULIP elements with accompanying scripture.

One needs to realize that this is a theological position held by many prominent theologians over the years and that there are other viewpoints.

I think the major problem is that there is really a lack of understanding of what TULIP really is. But that is usually resolved by putting aside preconceived notions and by further study.
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


I'm glad LeeJ You're finally beginning to understand. I remember the day over 30 years ago the Lord spoke those words in Timothy to me. It's been an amazing journey of Faith to totally and completely trust God for that promise.

I won't go into any details, seeing there are scoffers and blasphemers on line here, but YES, to God be the Glory for ALL He has done is doing and will continue to do until He comes or I go home first.

No longer I but Christ in me, is what I always say. It's being conformed to His Image that the GOLD is seen. Gold tried by fire, Christ WROUGHT in.

Our part:

4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour,

---kathr4453 on 11/9/11


//Would YOU like to become a vessel of honour? YOU CAN. Just obey the following verses. Do you want to be wood and earth AKA Clay or do you want to be Silver and Gold. GO FOR THE GOLD!!

Yes, I can see you are getting to know the truth.

while God does whatever His will is, those that obey Him are used for higher purposes.

Howbeit, any good one may do is really from God as "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Php. 2:13)

1Co 1:31 Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

One should always obey but at the same time realize that whatever good one may do, really is the result of God's Spirit working within the believer.
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


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And that is what the sovereignty of God is all about.
Sorry but you is the clay and He is the Master Potter
--lee1538 11/8/11
Yes, that is true. But what the sovereign God decided to do with his power is give free will to humans to invest them with the power to make decisions, good and bad, to learn from them, and prove their worthiness for God's gift of salvation. The Bible testifies of the importance of choosing a righteous life in many places, and thus our freedom to do so, or not do so.
---Rocky on 11/8/11


The reason many may not get into Heaven is they do little to become better people.
---Rocky on 11/8/11

Now this IS man trying to save himself by being a good person, never knowing even hiss best is but a filthy rag.

The reason people don't go to heaven Rocky is because like yourself, you deny that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to heaven.

No Longer I but Christ in me!!!

You've been reading too much Hinduism!
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


Leej, If you want to sit around and blame God for everything that's fine. However, I've learned over the years to pray and ask God WHAT His will is in any given situation. I know if we pray according to His will, He hears.

I know if I pray and it's not according to His will, but my own, those prayers are not answered.

When I make a poor decision, I OWN IT, confess it to God, ask forgivness for MY BAD CHOICES. I don't sit around and rationalize away,, God molded me to do it.

NOP. I own it, confess it, and KNOW when I'm forgiven, because His Peace comes upon me. I know by my own choces when I squelch the Holy Spirit.

I believe we have free will even AFTER we are saved. If we didn't, then we would be SINLESS.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


The Gospel does not teach that man develop a program for SELF improvement.
--kathr4453 11/8/11
You say that without qualification. The Bible tells what to do, but leaves a lot of the how change up to us.
What is wrong with identifying a weakness and developing a program to work on it?
For example helping others more often, spending less time watching TV, stop procrastinating, or be more honest and stop lying, especially about others (some on this website could use that one).
Or to read the Bible, pray, or go to church more often. Perhaps pick a Bible story and try to emulate it.
The reason many may not get into Heaven is they do little to become better people.
---Rocky on 11/8/11


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Seriously folks, you can believe Leej, or Believe God. Would YOU like to become a vessel of honour? YOU CAN. Just obey the following verses. Do you want to be wood and earth AKA Clay or do you want to be Silver and Gold. GO FOR THE GOLD!!

2 Timothy 2:20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


Kathryn//God Established in Genesis free will. HE did not establish through Cain and Abel saying "Abel I loved and Cain I hated".

While we have free will, it is bounded by the will of God.

If it is His will that you would be like a Pharaoh, or an Esau, then He certainly has all the rights to do with you as He wishes and with your free will, you will do what He desires because that is what He will put in your mind to do. see Romans 1:28

And that is what the sovereignty of God is all about.

Sorry but you is the clay and He is the Master Potter, not restricted except for the moldability of the clay. Romans 9:21, Isaiah 29:16.
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


kathr4453//does that mean he no longer has free will to make the decisions that creates his future?

Simply man's free will is bounded by the will & pleasure of God in His soverignity over all His creation.

As to free will, one does what one wants to do,howbeit, God may put into ones mind to do what He desires.

In the final analysis then, we are accountable for all we do.

Ro 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

He has even put into your mind to submit to Him, to worship Him and to obey Him, "for it is God who works in you, both TO WILL and to work for his good pleasure."Php. 2:13
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


Lets say I found a crystal ball and can see the future. (predict not change not stop just see what happens) So I use this ball to see into the future of a friend. I do not however tell him what I see. Because I now know all (concerning my friend and what they will do in the future) does that mean he no longer has free will to make the decisions that creates his future?

God Chose Isaac over Ishmael, but never stated he hated Ismhael. God Blessed Ishmael. God even Blessed Esau. Isaac blessed Esau. AND it turned out exactly as God told Rebecca, the Elder will SERVE the Younger.

God didn't HATE Esau just because He loved Jacob. God KNEW Esau would disregard his birthright, just like Esau did disregard his birthright.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


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Being saved by grace, one sees the Word of God with fear and soberness. "Fear" that God has already chosen whom He will show mercy to and those He will harden. "Soberness" when the election was unconditional like He loved Jacob, because by the same token He could have rejected you like He hated Esau.

For the unbelievers (aka the reprobates), the Word is nothing but bad news indeed, that's why they hate Jesus Christ. They will be kicking and screaming all the way to the broad gate cursing and swearing at God. And when the elect sees this, they will come to know "He might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."
---christan on 11/8/11


Your poor god is not soveriegn and cannot do with His creation as He wishes. Sorry but those who have studied the Bible believe salvation is wholly of God.
---lee1538 on 11/8/11

Oh here we go again with this "Your Poor God, You stripped Him of His sovereignty" CRAP.

YOUR LONG standing doctrine has only been in effect for the last 500 years...BUT the REAL LONG LASTING TRUTH has been in effect for the last 6000 years.

God Established in Genesis free will. HE did not establish through Cain and Abel saying "Abel I loved and Cain I hated".

IF He had...THEN your doctrine would be true.

SO, Stop with the STUPID Guilt trips!
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


A Poor god is so insecure that he has to MAKE men love Him, by creating robots. A Poor little god is so insecure he could never handle man's free will to choose him or reject him.

A poor little god is so insecure about his sovereignty that he has to control everything, much like an alcoholic who has to control everything.

As a parent I am in Control, however my children have free will, and no matter what they do, I still have the upper hand.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


//"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." Romans 9:11

For those who reject the docrine of election have to find a dance that will skip around the plain meanings found in scipture. They really have a totally different concept of God than those that are more learned.

And yes, kathy I know you detest people that are educated but some of us have been called into ministries that are above those of housewives.
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


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kathr4453-So yes, one can deceive themselves by distorting the doctrine of predestination and election.
---
Since you reject the long established and scriptural doctrine of election, do you believe that the dead can hear and believe unto salvation or does God have to awaken them?

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,..

Your poor god is not soveriegn and cannot do with His creation as He wishes. Sorry but those who have studied the Bible believe salvation is wholly of God.
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


Denial and rejection that God has chosen for Himself a peculiar people whom only His Son died for at Calvary is very simple. These are the very people that hate the idea that God in His infinite wisdom chooses unconditionally.

The apostle Paul tells us "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." Romans 9:11

Yes, God declares that He chooses unconditionally. However, whom He has chosen, He does not tell us their names but nonetheless the Gospel of Truth must be brought forth, regardless of how one feels about election and predestination.
---christan on 11/8/11


There is not a BAD NEWS Gospel that Jesus only died for a select few.
--kathr4453 11/8/11
That is funny - and so true.
---Rocky on 11/8/11


Also develop a program for self improvement based on sincere self-assessment with the help of the Spirit.
---Rocky on 11/8/11

Rocky that is a deceiving statement.

The Gospel does not teach that man develop a program for SELF improvement. SELF was crucified with Christ. Self is not improved, and never will be.

No need for self-assessment either. SELF SELF SELF is of SATAN!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


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The deciever is SATAN.
--francis 11/8/11
More often than not, the deceiver is ourselves rather than Satan. Its nice to blame an outside force, but that is a deceit itself. Usually it is just our own imperfections - greed and arrogance being two of the biggest. If we blame Satan instead of our own imperfections, then we see not the source and cannot see the remedy. If you misdiagnose, you mistreat the disease.
How can a person avoid being deceived?
Read your Bible, pray, meditate on your love for Him, and listen to His Spirit for guidance.
Also develop a program for self improvement based on sincere self-assessment with the help of the Spirit.
---Rocky on 11/8/11


But if you are a disciple of Christ, you would do well to listen to His great commission He gave to us.
christan 11/8/11

Exactly, the Great commission is to preach the Gospel to all, that Jesus Christ died and rse again for the forgivness of sin. That whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

GREAT NEWS don't you think.

There is not a BAD NEWS Gospel that Jesus only died for a select few.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


christan, if you want to speak with authority, why won't you answer the simple questions about the Bible I asked on another thread? Will you now?
Which Bible do you use?
When you wrote "The Bible is also known as the 'Word of God'", which specific version were you talking about?
Is that the only version that's the "Word of God" or what others?
Why?
Do you believe in Biblical literalism, inerrancy, or infallibility?
Why?
Why didn't Jesus, or Apostles, say anything about a Bible or do something to ensure a timely, official compilation?
Where does Bible say God revealed in it everything he wants mankind to know?
I asked some of these questions of others but NONE will respond. Strange.
---Rocky on 11/8/11


But if you are a disciple of Christ, you would do well to listen to His great commission He gave to us.
christan 11/8/11
You don't get the question. It is not why do we obey God, it is why did God have Jesus, and the Apostles. spend all that time preaching when the outcome was already predestined?
To which I add the question, what is the purpose of creating a universe and having us all go throw thousands of years of charade if the outcome is already known?
I really would like an answer so please don't ignore again like previous questions about the Bible.
---Rocky on 11/8/11


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christian:

If predestination is so ironcld, why did both Jesus and Paul exhort their followers to correct behavior? If it was 100% up to God and 0% up to individuals, why would they need to do so, since the individuals would have no say in the matter?

Yet both of these preached to try to INFLUENCE (not COMPEL) the beliefs and behaviors of others. Regardless of whether or not God happens to know in advance who will be saved, and who he invites to be saved, the final decision on whether to accept or reject that invitation is our own.
---StrongAxe on 11/8/11


God told Moses that He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart. Did Moses show that same attitude of disobedience of not going to Pharaoh even he knew what God was going to do? Far be from it! That's the difference.
---christan on 11/8/11


God also promised Israel the Promise land. Did God make a promise and then squelch on His Promise by making sure they did not have faith to enter in. His will forced them to not have faith, even after He Promised them the Land?

They were preached the Gospel The same as we are today!

God no more predestined them to disobey and lack faith than He predestined their children to have faith and enter in.

THEY lacked faith....
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


So yes, one can deceive themselves by distorting the doctrine of predestination and election.

You see, THEY lacked faith in entering INTO the Promise Land. They died IN THEIR SIN in the Wilderness.

To "ENTER IN" = Salvation.

Hebrews 10 makes that perfectly clear....WE enter in a new and LIVING WAY, through the veil, that is to say His Flesh.

God doesn't promise LIFE through His Son and pick and choose who can and can't enter in. WE make that choice...BY FAITH. Heb 3-4 make that perfectly clear.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


The deciever is SATAN.
And satn has ONE GOAL get people to SIN. If god has ever said that something is a sin, SANATH will come along and tell you that God has changed his mind or his laws.

You decieve yourself when you think that God will ever find SIn acceptale
---francis on 11/8/11


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"What are some of the ways people are being deceived, also how can a person avoid being deceived?"
One is decieved by simply not believing the Truth, avoid by
Prov 3:5
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding,"
---Chria9396 on 11/8/11


A person can avoid being deceived by believing everything the Bible says and anything outside of the Bible is truth mingled with a lie, and turns out to be a lie.

Satan mingled the truth with a lie when he asked Eve, "Hath God really said you shall surely die?" God did say that, but God didn't mean a physical death. God meant a spiritual death yet satan convinced Eve that God was wrong. Remember she was walking in the light when she got decieved.

If we believe anything else outside the Word of God, that opens a door for us to be deceived.
---anon on 11/8/11


One can deny and reject election by grace and predestination all they want. What really matters is that it is very Scriptural, taught by Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul in great detail.

One can even say that since God has chosen and predestined, why then do we even bother to preach the Gospel? Do we know who God has chosen and predestined to Christ? Of course not. But if you are a disciple of Christ, you would do well to listen to His great commission He gave to us.

God told Moses that He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart. Did Moses show that same attitude of disobedience of not going to Pharaoh even he knew what God was going to do? Far be from it! That's the difference.
---christan on 11/8/11


John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

PAST TENSE.

Are you saying YOU don't understand this, because it doesn't make sense to YOU??

IT'S because you've taken it out of context.

Jesus was talking to Jews, who were taught by the Prophets BEFORE He went to the Cross?

Who did they come to, Jesus in the flesh before He died and rose again, or Jesus AFTER He rose again?

Which one did you come to??? And what were YOU taught FIRST..RE: After Death and resurrection?
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


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Lee: "Those [sic] oppose these 5 points belong in the minority."

Halleluyah!! The Bible says that the minority will be the ones saved.



StrongAxe: "The problem ultimately comes from building a major doctrine based on one or two verses, rather than taking all of scripture together as a whole.

Now that's a STRONG position of truth! Well said!
---jerry6593 on 11/8/11


45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father,cometh unto me.

So every man that HEARD WHAT? and LEARNED WHAT? of the Father. What exactly were they taught, and Learned?

Even Herod HEARD, when Jesus was born, and wanted to have Jesus Killed.

Even the three wise man HEARD and came and worshipped and gave gifts.

LeeJ, do you KNOW what they heard and learned through the Law and Prophets?

Was not Jesus coming Prophesied?

Here Look at John 7:41-44
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


Rob!

The answer to this question is quite simple.

Who is the DECIEVER? Answer... SATAN!

How did he decieve himself and Adam and Eve? Answer... by believing that... "I will be like God!"

Who is Jesus? Answer... GOD!!

Those who reject Christ's eternal holy uniqueness and believe the LIE that they can be like Christ (God)... ARE DECIEVED and will go to HELL because they will NEVER call out to their Savior for the MERCY that they really need!!!

And... Crying out to God for MERCY is the ONLY way to receive forgiveness, grace and mercy, and salvation.
---Lutherist on 11/7/11


Kathr4453- Your interpretation of John 6:44-45 is wanting.

John 6:44-45 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the Scriptures, They will all be taught by God.

Notice that it really says those that the Father draws will come to Christ and they WILL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.

Your interpretation so 6:45 is in the past tense which really make no good sense.

If the Father has indeed drawn you to His son, then you will be born spiritually of the Spirit of Jesus.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11


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lee1538:

The problem with that Calvinist doctrine is that it leads to the following unsavory conclusion:

Since God has already decided if we will be saved or not, and nothing we can do will change it, there is no difference whether we live lives of piety or debauchery - our ultimate fates are already sealed.

So there would be absolutely no need for anyone to heed a call to repent, since elect sinners would be elect even if they continued in sin, and those who are not elect are damned even if they live pious lives.

The problem ultimately comes from building a major doctrine based on one or two verses, rather than taking all of scripture together as a whole.
---StrongAxe on 11/7/11


One way would be to slower to come to a conclusion, in other words, get all the facts before making a judgment. Because on the surface it may appear one way, but after all the facts are in it may be quite the opposite.
---Eloy on 11/7/11


Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11

Jesus EXPLAINS:
VERSE,45 "and all those who have been TAUHT of the Father come to me.

So LeeJ, again, when were you taught of the Father Not about the Father, but directly by the Father before coming to Jesus?

We also know no one can come to the Father EXCEPT Through Jesus. Are you the exception?

Or have you AGAIN taken that verse out of context, or are you going to accuse God of speaking with forked tongue?
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


One is deceived by believing God FORCES one to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood.

God no more FORCED Israel into the Promise land than the man in the moon was forced in.

Rebecca was no more FORCED to marry Isaac than God forcing Himself on you.

---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


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there are many ways,but one of the ones i see most is people who proclaim they are saved persuing worldly things ,wealth,cars,money,entertainment,basically living in the world and deceiving themselves by serving 2 masters,which jesus said cant be done.
---tom2 on 11/7/11


//Being saved "BY GRACE" is being saved by Jesus Death and resurrection life.

That is what Calvinists have taught for centuries as well as the fact that God has predestined those who will be saved.

True or false?

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11


The biggest deceivement among christians is focusing a characteristic of God and not God himself. For example focus on "End Time" questions but not worring about your personal growth or forgiving someone. To avoid being deceived remember you are always growing, know God and be able to back it up, have friends who can call you out.
---Scott1 on 11/7/11


aren't we told to OBEY bec. if you disobey it is sin.

obey malachi & 10% then you see televangelist rich. but don't judge them

does that mean if we avoid being deceived, we have to disobey?
---mike on 11/7/11


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---In this context Jesus is saying that the one who truly seeks after God will come to an understanding that Jesus' teaching is from God and that it is important to understand this because that is the way to life.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11

Yes JESUS teaching is from God, not Calvins. Who needs Calvin anyway when we have JESUS teaching us. Jesus did not contradict what he taught. Calvin did.

Calvin did not die for my sin, Jesus did. Calvin does not live in me Jesus does. I am not crucified with Calvin, but Crucified with Christ.

Jesus is MY HEAD where all power and knowledge and wisdom flow....Calvin is not my head.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


lee

be specific
doctrine is the teaching? we are told to obey malachi by giving that will result in blessing, self denial - or being robots not people, rebuke the sin but we are accused of accusing.

these teachings are just to put us in bondage & we see those who say obey we end up being exploited.
---mike on 11/7/11


//Doctrine does not save anyone...JESUS SAVES!!!

The word "doctrine" in the Bible simply means "teaching. We generally use the word "doctrine" to refer to a precise teaching or set of teachings while the word "teaching" itself refers more loosely to overall general concepts.

Doctrine is important because Jesus thought it was important. Jesus said in John 7:17, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

In this context Jesus is saying that the one who truly seeks after God will come to an understanding that Jesus' teaching is from God and that it is important to understand this because that is the way to life.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11


Those oppose these 5 points belong in the minority.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11

And we know, "very few will find it", so being in the minority is a GOOD THING.

Interestingly Calvinism totally avoids the obvious.

Being saved "BY GRACE" is being saved by Jesus Death and resurrection life.

Those who do not identify with Jesus death and resurrection life ARE DECEIVED, no matter How many points they believe.

Doctrine does not save anyone...JESUS SAVES!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


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//Calvinists deceive themselves claiming to SEE the Kingdom of God. Scripture states we ENTER the Kingdom through much tribulation.

You ever noticed that Kathr4453 always makes accusations and without any reference whatsoever?

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Does kathr4453 know what a sound mind really is?
---lee1538 on 11/7/11


Calvinists believes 5 basic things from scripture -

1)man's heart is evil (Mk.7:21f), sick (Jer.17:9), a slave of sin (Rom.6:20), does not seek God (Rom. 3:10f), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), at enmity with God (Eph.2:15)

2)God chooses the elect according to the intention of His will (Eph. 1:4f,Rom. 9:11) w/o any consideration of merit in the individual.

3)Jesus died only for the elect, bore only the sins of the elect. Mt.26:28, the sheep only not the goats (Jn. 10:11f, 17:9)

4)When God calls His elect into salvation, they cannot resist.Rom. 9:16,Php.2:12f,Jn. 6:28f,Jn.1:12f

5)The believer cannot lose his salvation. Jn.10:27f

Those oppose these 5 points belong in the minority.
---lee1538 on 11/7/11


Calvinists deceive themselves claiming to SEE the Kingdom of God. Scripture states we ENTER the Kingdom through much tribulation.

So they themselves have never ENTERED into It.

They THINK they undestand all the MYSTERIES of the Kingdom. DO THEY?
The Gospel ACCORDING TO THE MYSTERY?
The MYSTERY according to Godliness?

OR:
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,

OR the Mystery of the Church?
OR The Mystery of Christ in you,that comes only through our Identification with Christ in death and resurrection life.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


The legalist is one who has been deceived into believing that his good works will merit him eternal life.

Such were the Pharisees that continually judged Jesus because He did not observe the Jewish Sabbath and continued to judge themselves not by the standard of Scripture but by other people.
---lee1538 on 11/6/11

Now the Pharisees did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, Correct?

Do those who you accuse Leej also deny Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


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One way to tell is to see how well what is being taught lines up with what the Bible itself teaches. While it is inevitable that in translations there will be minor differences, if what one hears has consistent glaring contradictions, either within itself or with the Bible, alarm bells should be going off.

Another thing to look out for is the excessive use of cliches that are not Bible-based. I remember hearing a TV preacher years ago who always used the term "The God that is in me" - which evokes the idea that we have a divine nature that expresses itself (rather than that of an external God who dwells within us).
---StrongAxe on 11/7/11


While it is true no one can see the Kingdom of God before being Born Again, does not prove no one can HEAR about the Kingdom of God.

That's why we have those precious feet preaching the Kingdom of God.

Why would anyone have to PREACH the Kingdom of God to those who claim only they can see it to begin with.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

And also filled with the Holy Spirit after they believed, being Born Again of the Spirit.




---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


1 Jn 1:8
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Be careful who/what we listen to/believe
Mark 13:5-6
"...Take heed lest any man deceive you.For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many."
Pride, thinking ourselves wise
1 Cor3:18
"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise."
6:3
"For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself."
James 1:26
"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."
---Chria9396 on 11/6/11


The legalist is one who has been deceived into believing that his good works will merit him eternal life.

Such were the Pharisees that continually judged Jesus because He did not observe the Jewish Sabbath and continued to judge themselves not by the standard of Scripture but by other people.
---lee1538 on 11/6/11


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Ask discernment from God. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.(James 1:5)
weight things out...
---mj on 11/6/11


"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

Outside of regeneration by the Spirit of God, mankind will always be in deception (darkness), unable to see the kingdom of God. Jesus confirms this later in His teaching when He declared,

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life." John 6:63, which means to say, though one can read the prints in the Holy Bible, the Words in them are Spiritual, and without the Spirit indwelling through regeneration, it's impossible for one to believe let alone have eternal life.
---christan on 11/6/11


Some people are being deceived by preachers who are going into new age .the media Not following the Bible. The bible is the total truth.andwe need to follow it.
---Diane_Gilland on 11/6/11


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