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10 Commandments Obsolete

Hebrews 8:13 speaks of the old covenant (which is the 10 commandments Exodus 34:28) as becoming 'obsolete'. How then did the 10 commandments because 'obsolete'?

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 ---lee1538 on 11/8/11
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Warwick,

You have provided a very telling comparison, one that now you attempt to divert attention away from with red herrings.

You have helped us to appreciate that Bible translators can, based on language and context, use the word "rape" in our English translations. The full range of meaning in the text carries that implied meaning.

However you have also demonstrated that no translator has ever rendered a Hebrew/Greek word or phrase as "Trinity" or some multi-personal equivalent, because something in the biblical text carries that intended meaning.

It's a glaring acknowledgment that the inspired text contains no support for your multi-personal, three-in-one God.

Thank you.
---scott on 11/15/11


When YOU confess your sins to God, are you vague (e.g. "Sorry I sinned"), generic (e.g. "Sorry I coveted"), or specific (e.g. "Sorry I drooled over that Ferrari")? If it's the third, you can anticipate the answer to your own question.
---StrongAxe on 11/14/11

LOL
---francis on 11/14/11


Scott, you are correct. For once you correctly quoted me! Keep it up!

I have already shown, many many times that the foundation for the Trinity is throughout Scripture.

The problem is because you are somewhat like Rocky having extraBiblical ideas through which Scripture is filtered. Anything which points to the Trinity is filtered out as your masters command. You must agree with them or you will be booted out. You are not a free agent, but indoctrinated by man.

A prime example of filtering concerns John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus-The Lord of me and God of me. You of course have to oppose this and do so with the tired old WTS nonsense we have heard before. Truly amazing Biblical gymnastics.
---Warwick on 11/14/11


francis:

When YOU confess your sins to God, are you vague (e.g. "Sorry I sinned"), generic (e.g. "Sorry I coveted"), or specific (e.g. "Sorry I drooled over that Ferrari")? If it's the third, you can anticipate the answer to your own question.

The reason eating things strangled and eating blood were particularly sinful to both the Jews and early Christians were told to avoid them is that these were used in religious practices of the Gentiles, so these were a sign to the Gentiles that Christians did not participate in such religious practices. That is also the reason why Jews did not trim their beards.

By "effimate", I assume you mean effeminate?
---StrongAxe on 11/14/11


Warwick,

Allow me to remind you of your original "argument":

"The word 'rape' does not occur in the Hebrew OT either but the act is described there. Therefore the lack of a one word description does not detract from the reality of rape, nor Trinity." Warwick on 11/9/11

Using your analogy I ask (3rd time):

Since there are Hebrew words that can justifiably, based on context, carry the meaning of "rape" and translators have rendered them as such...

...what biblical language does the same for the 'Trinity' or a multi-personal God?

"The act [rape] is described there." Warwick

Yes, but where in God's word is the Trinity described?
---scott on 11/14/11




Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Why did Paul, after saying that goes unto the details of the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit?
Because the specificsof the love God commands need to be clearly defined?
You declared above distinctly two behaviors to avoid, to lie and to steal.

Elsewhere you said: "If predestination is so ironcld, why did both Jesus and Paul exhort their followers to correct behavior?"
With that I agree but on this subject I see you not.
How is behavior formed and maintained?
---Nana on 11/13/11


I just said that if we have one commandment to love our neighbor, then by necessity we won't lie and steal and kill without needing specific individul commands to refrain from doing so. Any temptation to violate the ten is also temptation to violate the two, and vice versa.
---StrongAxe on 11/13/11

I feel you. I did where you are going with that.
So when you sin, and you confess your sins before God, do you say: " lord forgive me for I did not love my neighbour? " or do you say "God forgive me for a lied, coveted, dishonoured my parents and so on?"
What about sins not covered in summary of the two? Like eating things strangled or being effimate?
---francis on 11/13/11


Nana:

Yes, but how is that applicable? I don't judge anyone who chooses to keep the Ten Commandments, since the actions involved in doing so are also subsumed by Jesus's Two Commandments. I didn't say one is free to lie and steal and kill. I just said that if we have one commandment to love our neighbor, then by necessity we won't lie and steal and kill without needing specific individul commands to refrain from doing so. Any temptation to violate the ten is also temptation to violate the two, and vice versa. The same fruits that come from obeying the ten come from obeying the two, an vice versa.
---StrongAxe on 11/13/11


Scott: About rape, there is also the situation in the Law - I don't remember where exactly it is. If a woman becomes pregnant, she may claim she was raped by X, and then he had to marry her and could never divorce her
---James on 11/13/11


Scott 1, as you admit, the Hebrew words you have quoted have various meanings and from context are quite reasonably translated as rape. Nonetheless no Hebrew word which exclusively means rape is used. This meaning is a deduction. The common saying is that Scripture interprets Scripture. As we read more and more of Scripture we see how one verse compliments another, painting a picture. Much of what Christians believe is gained this way, and by reasonable deduction.

Solid Scriptural evidence for the Trinity is given. Jesus is called Creator, Redeemer, Saviour and the Alpha and the Omega etc, as is God. Jesus is therefore God, the second member of the Trinity!
---Warwick on 11/13/11




"Misrepresented"- Warwick (1)

Not true. Of course the word 'rape' doesn't occur in the Hebrew OT, It's not a Hebrew word. It comes (most likely) from the Latin 'rapere'- "to seize, carry off by force..."

But there are Biblical Hebrew words that can, based on context, accurately carry that meaning.

"The men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped [Heb= Anah] my concubine, and she died." Judges 20:5

Also 'Shakav' (not 'Kavash') at Zechariah 14:2.

While there is not a Biblical Hebrew word that only means 'rape', these two examples (Anah & Shakav) can only mean 'rape' in there respective contexts.

Continued
---scott on 11/13/11


"Misrepresented"- Warwick (2)

Continued-

Your "argument" was that "The word 'rape' does not occur in the Hebrew OT, but does in the English translation, because it is a word which describes a reality."

Using your analogy, what translation uses the word "Trinity" or Multi-personal, Three-in-one God because it finds support in the Hebrew or Greek text?

While, based on context, the full range of meaning of 'Shakav' can accurately be rendered "to lie down with" or "rape", what Biblical Hebrew language can you cite that can be rendered- 'Trinity'?

What "word" describes the "reality" of a three-in-one God?
---scott on 11/13/11


andy3996//HOW COME that you totally disagree with me, insulting my knowledge of the word and then end up saying what i said? don't you think that's ackward a least?
---
Sorry if I misunderstood your position, however, I believe your skills as word smithing could be improved.

Peace!!!!
---lee1538 on 11/13/11


StrongAxe,

Paul? He also said:
Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."
Christ said, "Watch and Pray". What are we watching and praying for?

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

If you think Love is a wild bush, think again, it is reared:

Luke 13:9 "And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."
Galatians 5
---Nana on 11/13/11


Nana:

Don't take my word for it. Take Paul's word for it:

Romans 13:9
"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

That one commandment encompasses all the others, so with it, all the others become unnecessary.
---StrongAxe on 11/13/11


lee, andy3996//you think that anyone living a life of debaucherie but still believing Jesus died for their sins cannot be lost and have eternal life?????

Such a person may in their minds believe Jesus died for their sins, but obviously their hearts have yet to accept the truth that "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 John 1:9

Those that are genuine Christians are born of His Spirit and have acquired a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17) that abhors sin.

HOW COME that you totally disagree with me, insulting my knowledge of the word and then end up saying what i said? don't you think that's ackward a least?
---andy3996 on 11/13/11


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When we are to "admonish one another", what do we talk about? What to bring to the pot-luck?
*****

Amen ...there is no righteousness WITHOUT LAWS

believe false christians claiming Gods Holy just and perfect laws are obsolete due to their MISUSE of ONE Scripture?

OR believe Gods Truth from rightly dividing Holy Scripture that HIS Holy just and perfect Laws stand forever as it is written

Christ ONLY LOVES those who keep His commandments

Exodus 20:6
Deut 7:9
Proverbs 7:2
Daniel 9:4
Matt 19:17
John 14:15, 21
John 15:10
1 John 2:3, 4
1 John 3:22, 24
Rev 14:12
---Rhonda on 11/12/11


Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come!

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the LOWEST FORM OF LIFE in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
---francis on 11/12/11


Many whom "use" the Bible have no Holy Spirit. They disregard contextual criticism. They are misguided by false doctrines from leaders that are not ordained by Jesus himself. They do not study the Hebrew nor Greek to compare the original language with English for precept upon precept, and line upon line. They wrongly confuse the two separate and distinct Testaments as though it were one testament inforce, rather than the old being abolished and the New currently inforce. They handle the Holy Scripture as though it were just another worldy book from man, and not the Holy Bible dictated by God. They wrongly attach todays definitions to the old English words in the Bible, which words had a diffderent definition when they were written.
---Eloy on 11/12/11


"If you love your neighbor as yourself, you no longer need specific rules to prohibit theft, murder, adultery, perjury, etc."
StrongAxe on 11/12/11
A sadomasochist is not in line with God's decrees although he may be loving his neighbour as he loves kimself.
How do we teach a child? Why you people try so hard to do away with the measuring stick God has given to Man?
Christians need to KNOW that, "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you
before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

When we are to "admonish one another", what do we talk about? What to bring to the pot-luck?
---Nana on 11/12/11


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Without the modern convience of chapters and verses, this passage would reas as follows:
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made, the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread, which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all,

This text is not about the TEN COMMANDMENTS, but the earthly/ worldy sanctuary and it's services which have passed away
---francis on 11/12/11


If you love your neighbor as yourself, you no longer need specific rules to prohibit theft, murder, adultery, perjury, etc.

If you love God with your whole being, you will never worship other gods, nor worship idols, nor disrespect his name.

It's not that we are now free to disobey the Ten Commandmenets. It's more that they are no longer necessary.
---StrongAxe on 11/12/11


Warwick //I was saved by grace many decades ago and have never believed anyone can be saved otherwise.

Your underlying assumption here is that being saved by grace of necessity brings you understanding of Christian doctrine.

Wrong again, you need to come back to earth on these issues and stop trying to save face when you are clearly wrong.
---lee1538 on 11/12/11


Lee, I truly wonder what planet you live on.

I was saved by grace many decades ago and have never believed anyone can be saved otherwise.

To say I have now come to that understanding with your assistance is unfactual and demonstrates your arrogance.

I have learned many things from many people, but you are not one of them. I cannot imagine what good I, or anyone else for that matter, could learn from a deceitful Biblical compromiser such as yourself.
---Warwick on 11/12/11


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Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

A record of debt is incurred when the law is not obeyed. but Christ cancelled that debt by carrying them to the Cross.

(2:16) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Adventist accuse othere of what food they may eat as well as what day they chose to observe. Howbeit, they do not celebrate the new moon festivals as commanded in the OT. Cherry Pickers!
---lee1538 on 11/12/11


Warwick //I have never said anyone can be saved by observing the law.

Yes, I am glad to see that you have come into the truth concerning eternal salvation, that obedience to commandments is not a prerequisite as salvation is by faith alone as a gift of grace to whomever would believe.

I say this because you are now tooting a different horn than previous. I am glad that I (and a few others) have taught you a few things that are important to the Christian life.
---lee1538 on 11/11/11


"This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages."-JOHN WESLEY, "Sermons on Several Occasions," 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

"No Christian whatsoever is free from the obedience of the commandments which are called moral."-"Methodist Church Discipline," (I904), page 23.
---francis on 11/11/11


Scott, earlier you misrepresented what I wrote. You were doing a Lee!

Regarding 'rape' you quoted Zechariah 14:2 but the Hebrew 'Shaw-gal'' simply means sexual union. That we are to consider this rape is discerned form other information supplied.

I don't think Judges 19:20 have 'anah' or 'kavash' as you claim. Maybe you meant Judges 19:25 which has 'yada' meaning to have sexual relations, which from the other information supplied is reasonably translated as rape. Nonetheless rape is not there in the Hebrew original.

That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the 3 persons of the Godhead is also deduced from the information supplied.
---Warwick on 11/11/11


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Lee, you, as always, are a liar. I do not say this lightly.

I have never said anyone can be saved by observing the law. I have repeatedly said man can only be saved by faith, by God's grace, through the finished work of Jesus upon the cross. I have repeatedly quoted Ephesians 2:8,9. Where is salvation by law in any of this?

I have also repeatedly said those already saved, repeat those already saved by faith, by grace, not by works, must not continue living contrary to God's moral law. You continue to misrepresent what I write so I am at liberty to say you oppose God's moral law as you wish to live by your own rules.

What personal sin causes you to reject God's morality? Obviously false witness is at the forefront!
---Warwick on 11/11/11


lee, A-men. Do you think it may be possible that these lost souls whom refuse the New Testament do so because somehow they think that the Old Testament is better? Surely they must see all the physical evidences from those of us whom display the real manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Even just the clean and righteous Christian life and how it is different than the NonChristian life. Why would they serve the letter of the law, knowing that they cannot completely fulfill all of its commands, and even is by some miracle they could keep all the hundreds of commands God says they are still undone because they refused his gift of the new life of Christ which will wholly transform them into meeting his acceptance.
---Eloy on 11/11/11


andy3996//you think that anyone living a life of debaucherie but still believing Jesus died for their sins cannot be lost and have eternal life?????

Such a person may in their minds believe Jesus died for their sins, but obviously their hearts have yet to accept the truth that "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 John 1:9

Those that are genuine Christians are born of His Spirit and have acquired a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17) that abhors sin.

While we all have our sin (1 John 1:8), we need to be constantly aware of what we say and do as we may come across as being something rather than what we claim to be.
---lee1538 on 11/11/11


Warwick,

If bible translators use the word "rape" (Latin rapier) because the Hebrew words 'anah' (Judges 19:20) and 'kavash', can, based on context, can carry that intended meaning...

...what translators or translations use the word 'trinity' or 'three-in-one God' (or similar) because the Hebrew of Greek implies this?

For your argument or analogy to make any sense, there would need to be an actual comparison or example right?

Believe me, if any of the trinitarian translators thought that they could get away with using the word "trinity' (or similar) because there was something implied in a particular Hebrew or Greek text they would do so.

Nothing is there so they don't.
---scott on 11/11/11


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Warwick //There is nothing my belief to give any sensible person reason to call me Judaizer, or legalistic.

Then you really need to stop emphasizing laws that are strictly jewish in nature and you need to stop praising those that do so.

While you say one is saved by grace alone, you should not then advocate one must observe the law in order to be saved.

Frankly, the thick plank may be in your own eye as you appear to be judging others by your own standard.
---lee1538 on 11/11/11


Jerry //Lee: Your thesis that the the Old Covenant (OC) is the Ten Commandments is incorrect.

The following verses state otherwise.

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD 40 days and nights, he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the 10 commandments.

De 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even 10 commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Howbeit, the 10 commandment covenant was replaced by a much better covenant.

Heb 8:6 But now hath [Jesus] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
---lee1538 on 11/11/11


Eloy //If any follow the old testment rather than Christ they will be cursed and condemned.

Exactly, For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor. 3:6

donnie //Romans 3:19-- say what ever the law says it says to those under the law, so that every mouth maybe silenced and the whole world be held accountable to God.

Agree, there are those who strive to be under the law - that ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7,9).

Howbeit the law is all they really know, not knowing the Spirit that will bring life to them.

The children of Hagar (Gal. 4:24f) are always quick to accuse those who would walk by Gods Spirit as being lawless but such are those lacking the Spirit.
---lee1538 on 11/11/11


lee, A-men. There is good reason why the old testament is called "OLD", and the new testament is called, "NEW". Even a child knows that the new replaces the old. Many sinners will serve the old testament and be condemned to hell for this disobedience to God. If any follow the old testment rather than Christ they will be cursed and condemned. Do the old testament followers think that Christ Almighty came to earth in person and commanded all flesh to obey him, did so in vain? No, by no means, even as his manifested and proven resurrection to the world is without controversy, so too be his word that he will come again, and at that day woe be to those condemned souls whom are following the ministry of death.
---Eloy on 11/10/11


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The ten commandments are still there, but they were not intended to make a person righteous, Romans 3:19-- say what ever the law says it says to those under the law, so that every mouth maybe silenced and the whole world be held accountable to God Therefore no one will be justified by the law, rather through the law become conscious of sin.But now a righteousness from God apart from the law has been made known, this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
---donnie on 11/11/11


lee, you think that anyone living a life of debaucherie but still believing Jesus died for their sins cannot be lost and have eternal life?????


since i said this cannot be, and you disagree with me. (i rether assume you misunderstoodme)
YET YOU SAY i have no knowledge about the bible, maybe so, but i do know that freedom in Christ is not for us to keep on sinning, rather for us to live a godly life. If any lives by God's standards, yet fails at times, then Romans 6-8:10 becomes vallid for them. anyone that deliberatly brakes the law so grace may abound(10 commandements) is away from God.
therfore the ten commandements as the bible points it very clearly is included in the GOLDEN RULE.
---andy3996 on 11/11/11


Lee: Your thesis that the the Old Covenant (OC) is the Ten Commandments is incorrect. A covenant is an agreement, and in this case, the agreement concerns how to pay the penalty for the transgression of the law - not a change in the law itself. The context of Heb 8 is a change in the priestly ministry of the Sanctuary - from the levitical system to the Melchisedec system under Christ. The very next verse after your stated Heb 8:13 says:

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Twisting this into the eliminating of the Ten Commandments is not the work of a "plank"-minded person, but rather one who is willfully ignorant.
---jerry6593 on 11/11/11


Lee, either you are thick as a plank or acting so, rather than accepting the obvious.

There is nothing my belief to give any sensible person reason to call me Judaizer, or legalistic.

As a 10 year old would know long before this I believe we can only be saved by faith, by the grace of God and not by any form of works. You appear to have trouble understanding these simple words!

As I say either you lack intelligence or act dumb.

If you wish to live in contradiction of God's morality that is your choice. But do not continue with your foolishness of calling me Old Covenant or legalistic. Grow up! You are acting like a petulent child.

If you are representative of those who know the Bible, then God save us!
---Warwick on 11/10/11


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"You really need to study the Bible more as what you post is indicative of the fact you really know little of it. Sounds like to me you are following the same deviant path as Francis was on."
lee1538 on 11/10/11

Your comment, "I can beat you to an inch, blah, blah..", knowing full well as you stated "are found within the New Testament except the 4th commandment of the Decalogue and there are good reason for that." to prove a sick point is as much in bad taste.
What's your riddle? They are except the 4th but whom affirms it you call, " following the same deviant path as Francis was on"? You are confused.
---Nana on 11/10/11


//Eloy if the ten commandements are obsolete then
1 put every known and unknown god on an altar and sacrifice all the chickens you can to these idols
....
You really need to study the Bible more as what you post is indicative of the fact you really know little of it. Sounds like to me you are following the same deviant path as Francis was on.

The Old covenant was REPLACED by the better NEW COVENANT. While many of the commands are the same as in the Old, what is not in the New is not applicable to the believer.

All the commandments being summed up by love of neighbor (Romans 13:9f), are found within the New Testament except the 4th commandment of the Decalogue and there are good reason for that.
---lee1538 on 11/10/11


Warwick I think it obvious you wish to live in Old Covenant law as promoted by the Judaizers believing that the road to righteousness and salvation is through the law.

What I claim (and apparently you cannot conceit of), is the fact that if one abides in the ministry of the Spirit, instead of in the ministry of condemnation and "death craved in letter of stone" (2 Cor. 3:7,9), you will fulfill all the requirements of the law.

What is also obvious is that you really need a new mentor as that minister you speak of does not know either the Word or its Author. It is no wonder that the church is so full of people today that are religious but really do not know Christ.
---lee1538 on 11/10/11


eloy which one of the bibleverses is false?
---andy3996 on 11/10/11


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Eloy if the ten commandements are obsolete then
1 put every known and unknown god on an altar and sacrifice all the chickens you can to these idols

2 you may carve an image to worship

3 Curse and swear untill hell freezes over

4 never have any day for the LORD

5 despise your parents, spit on them.

6 be a chainsawmurderer

7 fornicate al you want, good pink bussiness to you.

8 steal all you can

9 lie and accuse falsely

10 covet everything, lust for his wife

wouldn't you agree with me that someone doing half of the above "counting on grace" will be lost, therfore again where did I speak falshood?
---andy3996 on 11/10/11


Lee I think it obvious you wish to live by the warm and fluffy code of the Law of Lee. I believe there are certain of God's moral Laws which you find burdensome so convince yourself there is no moral code from God anymore!

But for me, definitely not a legalist, (my Pastor finds your idea hilarious) I take God's moral Law (including the 10 Commandments) to be a clear guide as to how those saved by grace alone, those who love and follow the Lord, should aim to live.

But John the apostle talks of our sin, and you acknowledge God's Law defines what is sin. And He says we have an advocate with the Father for when we sin by breaking God's moral Law. But you claim we no longer have a need to follow God's commands on morality!
---Warwick on 11/10/11


Scott, on another thread I wrote " I pointed out 'rape' does not occur in the Hebrew OT but the act is described there.

You changed this to have me saying the English word 'rape' does not occur in the Bible in English!

You quoted Zechariah 14:2 which in English has 'rape.' However the Hebrew text I consulted uses 'shaw-gal' which in English is 'copulate' which does not necessarily mean rape but just sexual union.

Therefore though the context is forced sexual union the Hebrew for 'rape.' does not occur. This word is used in English to convey the meaning of what was written. Likewise to use 'Trinity' to define a Biblical reality of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, is likewise correct.
---Warwick on 11/10/11


Andy, you post falsehood: "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for up to this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament, which is done away in Christ. But even up to this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it will turn to the Lord, the vail will be taken away." II Corinthians 3:13-16.
---Eloy on 11/10/11


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lee, "Now if the Priesthood be changed, then of necessity the Law also change be made. For there is truly a disannulling of the Commandment going before, for the weakness and unprofitableness of it. For the Law perfected nothing, but a bringing in of a better hope by which we draw near to God. By so much security, Jesus indeed parent of a better Testament. Then said he, Here I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 7:12, 18,19,22, 10:9.
---Eloy on 11/10/11


Warwick//How can we know what sin is if not for the 10 Commandments?

True that you know by the law what sin is.

Ro 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

But it goes on to say that the righteousness of Christians is in Christ, not of ourselves.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Now don't you wish legalist like yourself could understand scripture?
---lee1538 on 11/10/11


the old covenat NEVER became obsolete, it is INCLUDED in the GOLDEN RULE.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
people try to discuss the OR factor is it the ten OR is it CHRIST, YET whoever is bornagain automatically adjusts his life AND lives according the DECALOGUE.
---andy3996 on 11/10/11


Warwick //Lee you say the 10 Commandments have been done away with.

Yes, and replaced by a much higher and better covenant.

Hebrews 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Of course, the legalists needs the law since they do not have the indwelling Spirit of Jesus to guide them.
---lee1538 on 11/10/11


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The old covenant became obsolete when the New and Supreme Covenant and the New Commandment was born. Christ is the beginning of the New Covenant, and all that came before him pales miserably in comparison to his Almightiness. When Christ Almighty walks on the scene then all of hell ruptures in terror and trembles at his presence.
---Eloy on 11/10/11


Lee you say the 10 Commandments have been done away with. You call any Christian who endeavours to live by them, a legalist. But then you write "I really do not see anyone that has been born again of God's Spirit would want to do anything that would displease the Lord." Displeasing God is sin. How can we know what sin is if not for the 10 Commandments? But you say we don't have to obey them! Therefore you are saying we are free to ignore them, free to sin!

We kid ourselves if we imagine we never sin. Consider King David, "a man after my own heart...", as God says, but by God's moral Law a sinner. But you would say if David was a man after God's heart (and God says he was) he wouldn't sin!
---Warwick on 11/10/11


Without the modern convience of chapters and verses, this passage would reas as follows:
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made, the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread, which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all,

This text is about the earthly sanctuary and it's services, which is what has passed away.

We still keep the ten commandments, but we do not make animal sacrifices or use a human high priest
---francis on 11/9/11


Warwick//However please give me an NT Scripture/s which say we can follow the Lord, (after being saved by grace) while at the same time purposefully, willingly, knowingly, as a habit, break any of God's moral Law.
---
I really do not see anyone that has been born again of God's Spirit would want to do anything that would displease the Lord.

Apparently the legalist does not accept the view that those who have accepted Christ as Lord as well as Savior, acquire a new nature that abhors sin. They seem to want to advocate law as a way to becoming righteous.
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


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steveng//The covenant is like a home mortgate: the laws are the same, but the terms are different. The old covenant laws dealt with the physical world, the new covenant deals with the same laws, but in a spiritual sense.

Agree and that is why the Old Covenant represented by the Ten Commandments became obsolete.

If obsolete then the believer lives by the ministry of the Spirit instead of that ministry of death & condemnation as depicted by the Old Sinaitic covenant. (2 cor. 3:7,9)
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


Warwick //please give NT Scripture which say we can follow the Lord, (after being saved by grace) while at the same time purposefully, willingly, knowingly, as a habit, break any of God's moral Law.
---
I posted this before but apparently you refuse to acknowledge the validity of it.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

And one of the main reasons that the believer cannot keep on sinning is due to the fact that "the Lord disciplines the one He loves,and chastises every son whom He receives", even to the point of death if necessary. Hebrews 12:6

God is an awesome god and greatly to be feared.
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


Lee, you seem unable, or unwilling, to see the difference between salvation by grace and Christian lifestyle.

If the Law was done away with Jesus would have said so but as I an others have shown Jesus ratified the Law. But for you I have to say it very clearly, once again-He did not say anyone can be saved by observance of the Law but only by grace, through the finished work of Christ upon the cross, not by works. Phew! Is that clear enough for you? Most likely not.

However please give me an NT Scripture/s which say we can follow the Lord, (after being saved by grace) while at the same time purposefully, willingly, knowingly, as a habit, break any of God's moral Law.
---Warwick on 11/9/11


Lee: 'Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.'

If something is obsolete, it just means it was replaced by something better. But God's better law(Christ's law), when you look at it, is only a PERFECTION of the law of the OT - it does not destroy it, it improves it!
---Peter on 11/9/11


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The ultimate law is LOVE. This law encompasses the two commandments spoken of by Jesus. The two commandments encompass the ten compandments. The ten commandments encompass the 613 laws of Moses.

The covenant is like a home mortgate: the laws are the same, but the terms are different. The old covenant laws dealt with the physical world, the new covenant deals with the same laws, but in a spiritual sense. The old laws says that if you murder someone you have treansgressed the law. The new laws says that if you hate someone, you have comitted murder in your heart.
---Steveng on 11/9/11


What your problem is here is your disagreement with what the Scripture really states-

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

And what covenant is in view here? It is the one defined by Exodus 34:28 or Deut. 4:13 namely the 10 commandments.

Exodus 34:28b And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Perhaps your problem is you were taught that the ultimate law of God is the Decalogue?
Or perhaps idolatry?
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


Who has said Commandment observance is necessary to be saved? Ephesians 2:8,9 clearly shows this incorrect.

Anon has hit the point: When we are saved and love Jesus why would we/how could we purposefully live immorally?

I add, what would Jesus reaction be should we (once saved) live contrary to the Commandments? Jesus said He did not abolish the Law but fulfilled it-Matthew 5:17-18. Further far from abolishing the law He says He has put it in our hearts and on our minds Hebrews 10:16." I am confident this 'law' does not contradict the 'Law' Jesus said will never change.

Despite the special pleading of libertines, where are we who follow the Lord left as concerns His moral law? Jesus plainly says we must obey it.
---Warwick on 11/9/11


The misconception of those who are saved by grace is that they are no more obligated to the law. True that the law cannot send the elect to hell because of Christ's fulfillment of the law on their behalf. It does not mean that one can go on sinning at will without any struggle with the indwelling Spirit as taught by Paul in Romans 7.

If there's no struggle between the sinner man and the indwelling Spirit, it's prove that one has not receive the Spirit. For the Spirit is faithful and will always remind the man that he has sin against God and he should repent to God. And because of God's gift of Faith, "it pleases the Lord" that he repents. However, he will not escape the chastisement awaiting him from the Father.
---christan on 11/9/11


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In case some of you have not figured it out yet, lee1538 is a SDA who writes blogs so that SDA can give the bibleical reason why every christain should keep the ten commandments.
lee1538 is a SDA plant, writing the same quetsion in many different forms so that when the other SDA post here, others will be informed of the need to keep the ten commandments and not live in sin.
That is why lee1538 keeps writing these easy questins.

Most people think that he is an anti SDA person, but just look at the easy question he writes. lee1538 knows that if the 10 commandments were obsolete that paul would never have written Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,



Good job BROTHER lee1538
---Francis on 11/9/11


"What God has inscribed onto the hearts of believers is really not the 10 commandments but the summary of the 10 commandments, and that is, to love our neighbor for that fulfills the law. "
lee1538 on 11/8/11

James concludes that violating the 'SUMMARY' (Royal Law) of the law in any specific is violating the whole of the law.

James 2:9_11.

Good Anon! Jesus pointed to the heart of man. (Matt. 12:34,35--Romans 13:10)
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
But as James also say, if we 'commit adultery', 'kill', 'steal', 'bear false witness', 'covet', 'and if there
be any other commandment', we fault that love and therefore are transgressors.
---Nana on 11/9/11


The law, as written, word for word, may be obsolete.

But the law was God's desire for us. The WORDS are obsolete, but the SPIRIT of the law is not - some things in the Mosaic law, like divorce, were 'permissions' from God, not God's desire.
---Peter on 11/9/11


//The 10 commandments are NOT obsolete...

perhaps it would serve us better if you addressed what is being stated in Hebrews 8:13

There are those who believe one must live by the 10 commandments to be righteous, howbeit, there is a much higher level that we are called to and that is to love our fellow man. Romans 13:9-10

I could beat you within an inch of your life and not violate the 10 commandments if I do not kill you.

Love God? how does one love God. Answer is simply. It is how one treats his fellow man.

Mt. 25:40b Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
---lee1538 on 11/9/11


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The 10 commandments are NOT obsolete. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Here's an example:

One of the ten commandments is: Thou shalt not committ adultery.

Jesus said if you even look at a woman and lust for her, you've already sinned (without even touching her).

The 10 commandments, when you fall madly in love with Jesus become 10 promises. John tells us that His commandments are NOT burdensome. You will want to keep them when you're in love.
---anon on 11/9/11


lee1538, we must read the whole the chapter and not to use one verse to create a doctrine. Like all the epistles in the NT, the writers reveals to us what the OT was all pointing to, this particular chapter the New Priest, Jesus Christ.

Remember, the law was faultless (v7), it is who God is. Verses 8 to 11, the writer reveals the message from Jeremiah 31:31-34 that was pointing to the spiritual regeneration of the sinner's heart. And the cause of this is God's mercy (v12) that He will show. Theologians calls this the Covenant of Grace - and in this covenant the law becomes obsolete to the Christian ONLY because of Christ's obedience to the Father in His death for the sins of His people. Christ fulfilled the law on His people's behalf.
---christan on 11/9/11


The 10 commandments are NOT obsolete. The old laws that borders on sacrifices/offerings for sins(Heb.8:3) are the ones that have been replaced by the perfect sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross at the place of the skull. The 10 commandments are fully represented in the greatest-1st & 2nd commandments.
---Adetunji on 11/9/11


Jed //He says with the New Covenant He will inscribe His commandments on their hearts.

What God has inscribed onto the hearts of believers is really not the 10 commandments but the summary of the 10 commandments, and that is, to love our neighbor for that fulfills the law.

Romans 13:9-10 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


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How many different ways can you ask the same question?

Is there any difference between what the Bible refers to as the law of God (Romans 7:22,25) and the law of Moses (Acts 15:5)?
---lee1538 on 10/24/11
In Acts 15, exactly what was required of Gentile Christians?
-lee1538 on 10/27/11
What rules and regulations did the ancient Jews follow in observing the Sabbath? -lee1538 on 10/28/11
Why is the 10 commandments called the ministry of death and condemnation
---lee1538 on 11/1/11
What is meant by 'commandments of God' in Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 1 John 2:3. Do these verses refer to the 10 commandments?
-lee1538 on 10/23/11
---francis on 11/8/11


lee1538, you assume the old covenant is the 10 commandments but the Bible does not say that. Did you even read the rest of the chapter leading up to verse 13? You can't just pick out any verse you want and give it a meaning on it's own, you need to read it in context. Verse 9 says God was making a new covenant with the Israelites, not because there were something wrong with His laws, but because their forfathers broke the covenant, making it obsolete. He says with the New Covenant He will inscribe His commandments on their hearts.
---Jed on 11/8/11


Christan //Obsolete? Far be from it!

Read Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

And what is the covenant here that became obsolete? The ten commandment covenant or the one God made with Moses on Mt. Sinai.

Exodus 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

See also De. 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. See also (10:4)
---lee1538 on 11/8/11


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