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Loose Our Salvation

Can we loose our salvation?

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 ---rob on 11/10/11
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francis, I have no clue what you are talking about. I went back and read everything I said, I saw nothing wrong. How did I take your comment out of context? I did explain what you said when you ask me for PCV please. and I answered, it was not what I said.
And while thinking about your prior answers, I realize you might not know about rebirth so I ask a simple question. It could have been possible you did not believe in rebirth. Salvation in Scripture also has a past tense, present tense, and a future tense. You only spoke of one, "Wrath" I spoke of many and how we can enjoy salvation with the Lord now in the flesh while still here.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/11


Samuel, you have spoken a lot about the law, and how a person should be to enter heaven or have salvation, so I want to ask you one thing.
"Are you without sin?"
And if you say you are, then we should not listen to you because no one is without sin and you are a fake. If you say you sin, then by your own standards of believes you are not going to heaven because you have broken the law.
Why not just get to the point of your arguements? Stop the smoke screen. Say what you want to say, that you feel that everyone is not going to heaven because they don't do Saturday Sabbath and you do. That is your point isn't it?
---Mark_V. on 12/3/11


The problem is that Adventists view grace simply as a provision which enables them to obey the law..Lee1538//


Lee1538, Please tell us how this is different than the words in the WCF or the Calvin belief that you all too keep the Law in some respects?

AND how do you know for sure the SDA's don't keep it in the same way as the WCF also states you do, except for the Sabbath Day?

---kathr4453 on 12/3/11


Lee1538, I have a question no one has ever given an answer too.

You all believe God already chose who He wants and doesn't want...correct. So exactly what is your motive here. Do you believe if one changes their doctrinal view to CAlvinism,, they automatically become the elect? So, based onn your WORK HERE you can take someone who disagrees with you, bend them to agree with you and walla, they are saved.

So, does Doctrine save, or not? and aren't you actually causing some to be deceived into believing they are the Elect, when actually God may never have chosen them at all.

So I wonder, how many CAlvinists are truly the elect, and how many are decieved, based on being brainwashed?

I think this is a fair question.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/11


Samuel //Love is what enables us to keep the law. The Love of GOD and the love of our fellow men. Grace by the HOLY SPIRIT gives us a new nature that hates sin. We say that those who still love sin are not saved.

True, but I would qualify 'law' here to refer to moral law - law that involves interaction with people.

Wish that the other Adventists on this forum had the same high verse of scripture that you do. There is so very much legalism among Sabbaterians.
---lee1538 on 12/3/11




I really wish I was telling a lie. The problem is that Adventists view grace simply as a provision which enables them to obey the law. Effectively that means one is saved, not as a gift of God, but by ones own efforts. This reduces Jesus to the status of a co-savior as salvation is dependent upon what one does.


lee1538

Love is what enables us to keep the law. The Love of GOD and the love of our fellow men. Grace by the HOLY SPIRIT gives us a new nature that hates sin. We say that those who still love sin are not saved.

Grace declares us righteous by the work of GOD. For we cannot attain salvation by the law. It is impossible.
---Samuel on 12/2/11


But do you believe you will lose your salvation if you fail to become righteous enough in this life?

Some of us have had very dramatic conversion experiences that has left an indelible mark upon us.
lee1538

No one can become righteous enough to earn heaven. That is impossible. We are to follow JESUS as those who love GOD and are not to settle for a half hearted salvation. Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
---Samuel on 12/2/11


---Mark_V. on 12/2/11
As i have told you before: Be more carefull in your reading of other peoples post. You much too often either intentionally or unintentionally take people out of context
---francis on 12/2/11


francis, I did not mention that we were saved from the wrath to come now, because it has not come. We are guaranteed we are saved from that wrath to come now. But salvation is much more then just that. That is the reason I said to James that one passage does not make the gospel of Christ when he mentioned repent. The most wonderful thing we now have as believers, is a communion with the Lord now. This is called by theologians, "There, but not fully there yet" or something like that.
We are there already as born of the Spirit, seated with Christ, pray and talk to the Lord, enjoy the holy communion. But one day we will be completely there, after the resurrection.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/11


---Mark_V. on 12/2/
Sometimes mark-V, we missunderstand other peoples postings. Sometme we take them out of context. When this happens defending a post where yu took someone out of context or missunderstood is useless. If youread you responce to my post yuwill see that what you said was that we are saved from the wrath of God in this body

So be a christian and just sya youmissunderstood what I was saying.

It is unchristian like to behave otherwise.

P/S I get your posint.
Salvation in cludes more than save from wrath.
---francis on 12/2/11




francis, Romans 1:16, although the message of the gospel may sound foolish to some, it's effective because it carries with it the Omnipotence of God's power and is the only power that is able to overcome man's sinful nature and give new life.
"Salvation" means "deliverance" or "rescue" It delivers people from lostness (Matt. 18:11) from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9) from willful spiritual ignorance (Hos.4:6) from evil self-indulgence (Luke 14:26) from the darkness of false religion (Col. 1:13: 1 Peter 2:9) Man on his own cannot deliver himself from any of those. He cannot save himself. No matter what he says. God delivers us from those things while we are still alive now if we are born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/11


Samuel //We just also believe that we are saved to follow GOD not live in sin and hatred. But to live in love towards GOD and others.
---
But do you believe you will lose your salvation if you fail to become righteous enough in this life?

Or do you believe that

"the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

While one can discard a gift, that would be rather unlikely for those who have been born spiritually by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3) and have acquired a new nature. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Some of us have had very dramatic conversion experiences that has left an indelible mark upon us.
---lee1538 on 12/1/11


Samuel //Lee you are telling a lie. We Seventh day Adventists teach we are saved by Grace alone through faith alone.

I really wish I was telling a lie. The problem is that Adventists view grace simply as a provision which enables them to obey the law. Effectively that means one is saved, not as a gift of God, but by ones own efforts. This reduces Jesus to the status of a co-savior as salvation is dependent upon what one does.

They also tell us that it is the Holy Spirit within us that enables us to live a righteous life and that is again via the law.
---lee1538 on 12/1/11


Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

True we shall also be saved from the wrath of GOD but we are also saved from a life of sin.

Lee you are telling a lie. We Seventh day Adventists teach we are saved by Grace alone through faith alone. We just also believe that we are saved to follow GOD not live in sin and hatered. But to live in love towards GOD and others.
---Samuel on 12/1/11


Saved from what?
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Whatever you think the wrath is, that is the TIME of salvation ( not the time to accept it, but the time when it happens)
---francis on 11/30/11

Scripture tells us we as believers by faith were promised by God, that we can enjoy salvation in Christ now, while in this earth and this bodies we now have.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11

francis, You said,
"SAVED FROM HIS WRATH NOW In these bodies.
BCV please"
I never said that. ---Mark_V. on 12/1/11

You may say that you took what I said out of context.
---francis on 12/1/11


francis, I ask you once what happens to someone who is born of the Spirit if he loses salvation, since that is what you said happens to some believers, and you never answered me.
So because you did not answer that question, and now you ask other questions, it seems to me that you have no clue about rebirth. I'm assuming of course. Do you believe that a person in this life can be born of the Spirit? This way I know how to answer you. It seems also to me like, you argue the physical aspects, like human works, losing salvation, but never the spiritual matters. I'm not trying to put you down, just want to make sure how I answer.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/11


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francis, You said,
"SAVED FROM HIS WRATH NOW In these bodies.
BCV please"

I never said that. The body has to die. But we can enjoy this salvation of ours now, it is a spiritual rebirth. Being born of the Spirit now we are seated together with Christ, we enjoy eternal Sabbath rest in Christ, we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit now, We are baptized into one spiritual body in Christ now. And we don't have to face the wrath of God anymore which is to come, it's a promise. At this present age as believers by faith, we can start to enjoying what it is to be born of the Spirit, by communion with God, in prayer, by participating in the Holy Communion, by speaking to God everyday and giving thanks for what He has done for us.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/11


Francis there is a problem with your interpretation of salvation.

1. the broad meaning of salvation is to be rescued from a threatening situation.

2. Ultimate salvation means to be delivered from the ultimate calamity of God's wrath.

3. The Bible uses salvation in several tense, referring to God's past, present, & future work of redemption.

4. Justification is sometimes used as a synonym for salvation, other times,it is seen as one aspect in the whole scheme of redemption.

5. Salvation is of the Lord and from the Lord.

(Essentials of Christian faith by RC Sproul, p.160)

I have to reject Adventism viewpoint on salvation specially that one must earn salvation by righteous works.
---lee1538 on 12/1/11


When we talk about being saved we are talking here in this context aboutbeing svaed from eternal death.
the bible says that we SHALL, or WILL be saved from that death
So when the lake of fire desends and comsumes the wcked those who have faith in Jesus WILL be saved from it.

Or we can say that we SHALL be saved to live with him while the wicked will be destroyed

But either way, thetime of this salvation is not yet

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we WITH PATIENCE WAIT FOR IT.
---Francis on 12/1/11


francis, I don't know what Bible you are reading or who taugh you, but they were wrong because Scripture tells us we as believers by faith were promised by God, that we can enjoy salvation in Christ now, while in this earth and this bodies we now have.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11

SAVED FROM HIS WRATH NOW In these bodies.
BCV please
---francis on 12/1/11


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Peter, I think the Truth is simple. Our whole lives concerning salvation is by faith. Faith in God. Our Savior Jesus Christ, "and" His works on the Cross and resurrection.
When we place our faith in God we "understand" the Word, that the promises of God are true and that He will do what He says He will do. Nowhere is that faith on us.
If we believe that we can loose salvation because we do something wrong, then our faith is not in God but in ourselves.
Concerning the parable of the seed in Matt. 13:3 is explained to the disciples in (v.18-23). Only the seed that fell on good ground is the one who is saved. Why? because the seed is fruitful and, they hear the
word and "Understand" it.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/11


\\\(the seed in the shallow ground)
Of course, then we have the (impossible to answer) question: Was the person saved and lost salvation, or never saved at all?\\\
---Peter on 11/30/11

Where on that parable do you read that the man represented by the shallow ground goes to hell?

That amounts to pushing a doctrine onto the text, because the only one mentioned as not being saved is the first one, where Satan snatches the word away to keep some from believing the gospel. All three of the other ones received the word, which means they believed and were saved.

There is nothing in scripture that says an unfruitful believer goes to hell
---James_L on 11/30/11


\\\God does bring physical death when He has to....But even though He brings death to a believer because he did something wrong, does not mean he is going to hell.\\\
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11


Mark, that's the whole point of what you and I have argued about for over a year.

God will not bring physical death upon a believer for chastisement unless the believer is living in rebellion.

That means that you agree with me that:

1) a believer can die in a state of rebellion.

2) not every believer endures in good works to the end of his life.

3) REGARDLESS of how a believer acts, he is eternally secure.

right?
---James_L on 11/30/11


Mark: While your view seems the best, I do have to say that some passages (like the seed in the shallow ground) that COULD be taken to mean that losing salvation is POSSIBLE

I don't think so,but I can understand someone who believes that.

Of course, then we have the (impossible to answer) question: Was the person saved and lost salvation, or never saved at all?

Can't answer that one! So better not try to work that out
---Peter on 11/30/11


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John 5:24 Most assuredly, I (JESUS) say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life (present tense), and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The words of Jesus are very plain, however, the SDA theory of Investigative Judgment is extremely a convoluted reasoning based on an implicit Old Testament sanctuary model.

Adventists need to look to Jesus for Truth and NOT olde Ellen White who they adore much on the same level as Roman Catholics do the Virgin Mary.
---lee1538 on 11/30/11


francis, I don't know what Bible you are reading or who taugh you, but they were wrong because Scripture tells us we as believers by faith were promised by God, that we can enjoy salvation in Christ now, while in this earth and this bodies we now have. We can communion with Him as we are now born of the Spirit, and we now communion with Him through prayer, through the Lords supper, and through the love of Christ we now have and share with others. And at the Second Coming, we will be glorified with our new bodies prepared for all eternity with the Lord. We will not stand in Judgment at the Great White Trone of Judgment, only unbelievers will. And they will get what they deserve. No more no less.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11


Can we loose our salvation?
---rob on 11/10/11
Saved from what?
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Whatever you think the wrath is, that is the TIME of salvation ( not the time to accept it, but the time when it happens)

Romans 13:11 for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

And if our salvation is NEARER then we do not yet have it, but with patiencs we await our salvation.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
---francis on 11/30/11


James, you say there is no scriptural evidence but again you have to be blind not to see it. Don't you believe we are more that conquerors through Him who saved us? That comes by faith. Nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Nothing James, that is why we are more then conquerors.
"So what then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? No created thing, not even our works, can separate us from the love of God. Believe it James with the new heart God gave you.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11


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James, you argue against the Word of God. Clearly all the sons of God are chastine. All illiget are lost. God does not abandon His children.
God does bring physical death when He has to. He can bring death to anyone if the individual would have compromise what He had already ordain to come to pass. The command by God for the extermination or slaughter of the Canaanites, is one case.
But even though He brings death to a believer because he did something wrong, does not mean he is going to hell. For all come short of the glory of God. If you believe you can loose your salvation, then you have no true faith in Christ. If you are depended on your works, you will fail, because you had no true faith in Christ in the first place.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11


Samuel, there's nothing wrong with "once saved always saved" if the person is truely saved by God. The problem accures when someone says he is saved and later abandons the faith. All the chilren of God " abide " in Christ. The word means "remain" They remain with Him because they have true faith. The others didn't. They did not make their calling and election sure. When God saves someone, makes them spiritually alive to Christ, sits them in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, He will never be lost. No where are we taught that a person loses his spiritual birth. We become one part of the spiritual body of Christ forever. If he leaves, he does not 'abide" because he was never spiritually alive.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11


In the Parable of the Sower there are those who do not product or are chocked out by the world. This is about believers.

Then the Talents about those who do not use their talent no matter how small.

People who live in sin say that it does not matter because they once said the right words and were baptized. That is the fruit of the Once Saved always saved doctrine.
---Samuel on 11/29/11


Mark V,
Your argument is not hard for me to understand because I used to believe the same thing.

What's hard is to find scriptural support. It isn't there unless you take passages out of context.

That's the danger of having a doctrine already in place. It makes it too difficult to see the context.

Do you agree that physical death is one way that God chastises some of His children for their behavior?
---James_L on 11/29/11


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James, why is it so hard for you to understand? You know and I know there is many who have confessed Christ and at the moment they did, they were sure they had true faith. They last for a time, and later walk away for good. They were not legitimate sons of God. If they had genuine faith, given by the Spirit at rebirth, and they fail they would be chastine by God. Only His sons are chastined. Even though they fail, they are spiritually bonded to Christ. There is no disbonding of body parts from the spiritual body of Christ. no where are we told that in Scripture. You will have to read the Bible again slowly.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/11


Mark V,
You're still saying the same thing.

First you say that someone can be in the faith, but are not saved.

Then you say that if someone is saved, they will stay in the faith.

So it seems you are saying that salvation depends not on whether someone is in the faith, but whether they endure.

That's the same argument that you fight agaist with Arminians.

That's why I say that there is really no difference between Arminians and Calvinists. Both are saying the same thing, leaving everything decided by whether or not a person endures.

And the destruction mentioned in Hebrews 10:39 is not hell, it means ruin
---James_L on 11/29/11


James L, many people are in the faith. You see them in every church. Just because they go to church does not make them save. They could go for years, and one day leave and never go back. Their faith is not saving faith. That only comes through the Holy Spirit. And anyone who is born of the Spirit become sons of God. They are never lost, they remain in the faith. Those who leave and are cut off are not sons, but illigetimate sons. Hebrews speaks much of those in chapter 10: but we are told the just shall live by faith but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him"
The writer who is writing then says
" But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"
---Mark_V. on 11/28/11


Francis, if your answers are correct why have you not answered?
Again, If a person is regenerated, born of the Spirit, and he falls and sins, he is chastine by the Father. Only if you are born of the Spirit. "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
(how listen to this) But if you are without chastening, of which all
believers" have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons"
(Heb. 12:7,8). Only the real legitimate sons get chasten when they fall, Yet those who are not sons, are those who are cut off completely, there is no chastening for those because they are illigetimate, not born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/11


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markv, The righteous are not corrected by the blasphemy and misjudgments from sinners. Repent, then you will be able to profess the righteous judgment as we Christians do.
---Eloy on 11/28/11


MARK_V paul here is speaking to gentile christians and says this to them:
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF.

These are people already in the church who have accepted christ as messiah. Paul says that if they do not continue they ( THE BELIEVING GENTILES) would be " CUT OFF"

What does he mean by CUT OFF, can they be CUT OFF and be saved at the same time
---francis on 11/28/11


Mark V,

one cannot commit apostasy if he was never in the faith.

That's like getting a divorce when you never were married, or

quiting a job you never got hired to, or

leaving a building you never went into, or

getting out of a car when you've been standing on the sidewalk the whole time, or

well, you should get the idea. The notion of someone leaving a faith they never believed defies all logic and reason - and scripture.

And there is nothing in scripture that says eternal damnation awaits an apostate. An apostate loses his inheritance, which is called SALVATION in Hebrews, Romans 10, Matthew 10, etc

Salvation cannot be lost, or it can, depending on which aspect we are discussing
---James_L on 11/28/11


Eloy, I have to correct you. When apostasy means, a doctrinal departure by those who profess salvation, who have not been regenerated or born of the Spirit who deliberately reject the cardinal Christian Truths of Christ deity and redemptive sacrafice ( 1 John 4:1-3: 2 Peter 2:1). Apostasy is irremediable, and awaits divine judgment ( 2 Peter. 2:1-3).
Jesus mentions that those who abide in Him He will abide in them. The word abide means to "remain" or to "stay around. Jesus said,
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit, for without me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide (remain) in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered:" John 15:5,6.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/11


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Francis Part 2: (v.20) "Unbelief" Branches were broken off and others grafted in based soley on the issue of faith, not race, ethnicity, social or intellectual background. Salvation is ever and always by faith alone (1:16,17: Eph. 2:8,9). Israel the "natural branches" was not spared despite being God's covenant nation, why should Gentiles, strangers to God's covenant expect to be spared if they sin against the Truth of the Gospel?
So those branches that were cut off, were the Jews who rejected the Lord. Yet within the nation of Israel, God always kept a renment for Himself. Those were the spiritual branches of God, the Elect.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/11


Francis, you avoided answering and threw more questions. If you had read the context from (Rom. 11:16) you will find out that "the root" were the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The branches were the patriarchs' descendants, the nation of Israel.
Here Paul was sternly warning the Gentiles against pride and arrogance (v. 18,20) because of Israel's rejection and their being grafted in. He says, "do not boast" because there is no place in the church for spiritual pride, because we are the spiritual offspring of Abraham (4:11,16: Gal. 3:29) not physical offspring.
The Gentiles were not the source of blessings, but have been grafted into the covenant of salvation that God made with Abraham (Gal. 3:6-9, 13, 14).
---Mark_V. on 11/28/11


Yes, both testaments speak of apostacy. Just as a people chooses to leave their spouse, people leave Christ. It is called backsliding, and falling from grace into perdition: "From that many of his disciples went away, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus to the twelve, Will all you also go away?" Jn.6:66,67.
---Eloy on 11/27/11


--Mark_V. on 11/27/11
If you can answer the question i pose, you will get your answer

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he ALSO SPARE THEE NOT.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF.

If we could not " loose our salvation," what then happens when we are " cut off?"
---francis on 11/27/11


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Francis, do you believe in "Rebirth?" born of the Spirit? If you do, you have a lot of explanating. First, our relationship with Christ is Spiritual? You are speaking on behalf of the flesh which prophets nothing.
What happens to someone who is born of the Spirit? Does he go back to been spiritually dead?
Eph 2:4-6 tells us we were saved by grace, nothing we did physically. Made us alive together with Christ (spiritually) and raised us up together (spiritually) and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. What happens to all that?
What you suggest is that everything God has spiritually done, sinful man in the flesh has the power to erase all His spiritual Works. Yet have no support to what you teach.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/11


Can we loose our salvation?
---rob on 11/10/11
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he ALSO SPARE THEE NOT.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF.

If we could not " loose our salvation," what then happens when we are " cut off?"

It seems that to be saved we must "continue in his goodness." which means we may choose to discontinue at any time. I say WE because
John 6:37.. him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
God / Jesus is not going to cast us out. WE can choose to discontinue
---francis on 11/25/11


Leej, Concerning tithing, I believe the Spirit convicts us when someone is at need, and we respond from the heart to give. Unless we make a vow to God then we are obligated to keep that vow. You mentioned that there is also a Reform Bible by RC Sproul, I will look for it. I do have his books on "What is reformed Theology" and J.I. Packer's "Knowing God" they have been very helpful. I also use "The Complete Wordstudy" of the Old and New Testament for looking up words. Thanks for the help.

Concerning the blog question "Can we loose our salvation" in keeping with the blog, No, when a person is saved by God, he never loses his salvation. God make no mistakes. His perfect.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/11


MarkV//thank you for the advice that there is a MaArthur Bible with footnotes and commentaries.

While I almost always read the study Bibles, I do not always find agreement with some of their footnotes and annotations

However, not all theologians agree on everything. RC Sproul for instance has the Reformation Bible which I have read however, his view on tithing is totally different from mine. His argument when I corresponded with him is that tithing was never abolished in the New Covenant. But so were many other things commanded in the Old Covenant but not explicitly abolished in the New.

I guess when it comes to money, pastors have other interpretations than what we conclude from Scripture.
---lee1538 on 11/19/11


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Leej, thank you for the advice that there is a MaArthur Bible with footnotes and commentaries. The only one area I will not agree with him is the pre-trib section, or what I would say the despensational part. All the other areas he talks about are great. I get into his website on the questions and answers section, and that gives great answers on all topics. I have also met him. I've met a few at "The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals" meetings in Sacramento. R.C. Sproul is another. Peace brother.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/11


Nana, I'm not a hater of anyone, not even you who oppose the Truth. You are no different then anyone else who answers for the Catholics, SDA's, Mormons, Or Jehovah Witnesses. They all get angry when someone opposes their false doctrines.
We are two different people, I defend the Bible with anything I can use to support the Truth in Scripture, while you on the other hand use all the material from your denominational doctrines, and their own traditions which you suppose are also Truth to support your own doctrines. And when I oppose you, you get angry like the rest who support their denominations. You are not looking for the Truth, you are looking to support your denominational church. We have very different intentions.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/11


//Get your head out of McArthur commentaries and read the Bible.

Yes, you should do so, however, there is a McArthur Study Bible you could use complete with all sorts of footnotes and annotations.
---lee1538 on 11/15/11


"The outward evidence of the emptiness of Jerusalem's ritualism was the presence of evil works, and the absence of good works"
John MacArthur

Get your head out of McArthur commentaries and read the Bible.
You hate Man, Christ loves Man so much that crucified He spoke, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
You are a hater and all you see is bad, as if all men rejected Christ which is a far fetched ignorant comment. If all rejected
Him none would have been saved but it is written,
John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
---Nana on 11/15/11


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Nana, I don't expect you to believe in the Soverign right of God on anything. Since your teachings are Catholic. They believe in man's own works for salvation.
But I will answer, you are right, God gave man many abilities. If He hadn't they would not last. One ability he does not have is a love for Christ. Man is at emnity against God. In Isaiah 1:16-18 implies, if they did so and so they would be right with God, and what did they do? They rejected God. The outward evidence of the emptiness of Jerusalem's ritualism was the presence of evil works, and the absence of good works.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/11


Luke 17:10! Awesome Nana!
---JackB on 11/14/11


"God chooses to regenerate us before we will ever choose to embrace Him."
Mark_V. on 11/14/11

R.C. 'Cola' don't understand Isaiah 1:16_18 "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil, Learn to do well, ..."

God has endowed man with all abilities required to "Learn to do well", just as all the 'faith' required to forgive our brother 7x a day. So endowed that on completion of what is COMMANDED to us, we are to say "We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Jesus clearly declared that we need not Him nor God to "increase our faith" in order to accomplish what is required/commanded of us.
---Nana on 11/14/11


Regeneration is not to be confused with the full experience of conversion. Just as birth is our initiation, our first enterance into life outside the womb, so our spiritual rebirth is the starting point of our spiritual life. It occurs by God's divine initiative and is an act that is sovereign, immediate, and instantaneous. Yet, an awareness of our conversion maybe be gradual. Yet rebirth is instantaneous. No one can be partially reborn, any more then a woman can be partially pregnant. No one can remove the spiritual life of a believer. God chooses to regenerate us before we will ever choose to embrace Him. To be sure after we have been regenerated by sovereign grace of God, we do choose, act, cooperated, and believe in Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/11


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elder, you are being ridiculous in spite of scripture. shira was talking about birth which takes a seed. jesus was saying we wield fruit.

But, how can you learn of spiritual things if you can't understand earthly things?
---aka on 11/13/11


ISAIAH 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens,look at the earth beneath, the heavens will wear out like a old garment and it inhabitants die like flies,But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.

ISAIAH 45:17 But Israel will be save by the LORD with an everlasting salvation,you will never be put to shame or disgrace, to ages everlasting.
---RICHARDC on 11/13/11


"question...do you eat the seeds or the fruit?
don't be one of the assumptive many."
aka
aka, Don't you assume too much. Shira4368 never said anything about seeds. She spoke of birth. Once born you may die but you will never be "unborn." You eat plenty of seeds. Apple sauce/juice and Orange juice (ect)all contain the seeds. And yes when ever I eat an apple I always eat the seeds and core, everything but the stem. There is great value in eating the seeds.
But, how can we learn of spiritual things if we can't understand earthly things?
---Elder on 11/13/11


Yes. Just as people have the free will to stay saved, or else go back down into Egypt or the world and become condemned in sin and bondage again. The road of salvation is a daily commitment. Today I will serve the Lord, and tomorrow I will serve the Lord, and the day after tomorrow I will serve the Lord, and the day after that I will serve the Lord, all the days of my life I will serve the Lord. And the day we ever choose not to serve the Lord is the day of damnation and falling from grace into darkness.
---Eloy on 11/13/11


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//Atonement and propitiation, what roll do they have in salvation? //

submission.

no. our works through our flesh (no matter how good) he does not recognize. in fact, those deeds, he will burn up. his works, through us, he will recognize and reward.

recognition of himself in us Mat 7:22-23.
---aka on 11/12/11


If I thought I could lose my salvation I would have lost it a million times over. The things that I know, or feel should doom me, you may do every day and feel absolutely no guilt or shame, the same is vice versa. Salvation is objective according to His sovereign will that is bathed in the blood and not our little good deeds, not according to our crooked measuring sticks. How many sins does it take to lose it, how much repentance gets it back? If this was the reasoning behind salvation, it would be according to our works and not the work on the cross. Atonement and propitiation, what roll do they have in salvation? All this is rhetorical, most of you have your position and will stick to it like super glue.
Adieu
---Poppa_Bear on 11/12/11


//When we are born into the family of God, we are born...How can we become unborn?// - shira

Planting a seed does not a birth make. it takes nurturing and delivery also. Jesus clearly points out that the planting of the seed is not the end. it is just beginning.

question...do you eat the seeds or the fruit?

don't be one of the assumptive many.
---aka on 11/12/11


Shira4368 //When we are born into the family of God, we are born...How can we become unborn?

John 1:12=13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I do not know what could be more plain that the above verse and it is hard to concept that God will become guilty of infanticide if we do not hop to the drum of some of these we-can-lose-our-salvation religions.
---lee1538 on 11/12/11


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When we are born into the family of God, we are born...How can we become unborn? I am secure in Jesus Christ for ever and eternity. Nickidemas even ask if we could enter our mothers womb and be born again. Once we are born, we are alive.
---shira4368 on 11/11/11


no..."that day" has not arrived yet. salvation, like child birth, does not necessarily come when the seed is planted, but when the child is delivered.

in utero, a fetus can die at anytime if it is not properly nourished. but, unlike a fetus, we can somewhat choose our environment. therein, lies the loss of Life and not of salvation. if the comparison to salvation (born again) is to child birth, when a baby is received, it is born, and, likewise, until we are received, we are not reborn.

until Jesus Christ delivers a living spirit or a lifeless still born, we can only choose our inner environment and source of nourishment. on that day, we will hear either, well done or i never knew you. therein, lies salvation.
---aka on 11/11/11


Salvation is not the work of the sinful man but rather the Almighty and Holy work of the Father in heaven. And if God does not call one into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ from eternity, there's no salvation for one to loose. Scripture tells us:

"God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:9, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thessalonians 5:23,24

God does not break His promise in salvation!
---christan on 11/10/11


YAHUSHUA (JESUS CHRIST) says in JOHN 15 "Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit, He (God the Father) taketh away...If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered (in a state of losing Spiritual Life), and men gather them, and cast them into the fire (Hell-Fire), and they are burned (in Hell)."
---Gordon on 11/10/11


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the teaching of our Apostle Paul (Rom. 11:13) says members of the Body of Christ living in the dispensation of Grace are eternally secure in Him (Rom. 8:35-39, Phil. 1:6). the question has long been asked if the Hebrew believers in the kingdom program enjoy the same assurance.
the answer is yes and no

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 24:13 cf. 10:22).

Our Lord's words suggest that any Hebrew believer who does not endure unto the end of the Tribulation without taking the mark of the beast will not be saved. the same thought
"As He spake these words, many believed on Him" (John 8:30).
---michael_e on 11/10/11


The word is "lose" please. Of course, I guess you could let your salvation loose and live like you are saved!!!!
---KarenD on 11/10/11


Jim thank you,and yes you are right we do want to when we are truely saved and commited to God,however if you don't think we "must" go back to the Old Testament,which the Bible says is our teacher,and look at what God did to those who did not obey him. He cast them aside,its just like in the new Testament where it says you cannot serve God and Mammon. I wonder,Jim,if Christians think we have more freedom in living than God really wants us to,is that what weakens a Christians walk with God. Vengence is mine saith the Lord I will repay. God does demand a high standard of moral living but that doesn't take away from our love for him and our desire to please him like any child wants to please a parent,or a servant a Master.
---Darlene1 on 11/10/11


I have been on these blogs for quite sometime.

Whoever posted this question, please use an intitial or number behind the name rob, so there will be no confusion between the two.

Thank you!
---Rob on 11/10/11


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Can we loose our salvation?
---rob on 11/10/11
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them, for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

The question itself is flawed assuming that BELIEVERS are already saved

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our SALVATION NEARER than when we believed.
---Francis on 11/10/11


Darlene..I like what you said, but have a problem with
"we as Christians must live a live that shines forth our newness in Christ".

It is not that "we must", but it is that we want to.
Big difference. Being a new creation we want to do what Jesus did, show the compassion Jesus showed, live as Jesus did and love as Jesus did. When we fail our spirit grieves, but as Jesus said..." I will never leave you or forsake you".
---JIM on 11/10/11


You can't loose your salvation but you can throw it away. Jesus paid the utmost price to make a way for the forgiveness of our sins,but with that comes responsibility to God. We are told over and over how we as Christians must live a live that shines forth our newness in Christ. No longer sinners following every whim of our minds and bodies but children of God following Christs example of death to self,and life unto God in obedience showing forth a cleansed life,purified from sinful ways. If you don't make it into heaven no one is to blame but yourself for not living a purified and holy life through Christ. People sin when they are led away by their own lusts and sinful acting upon them.
---Darlene_1 on 11/10/11


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