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Was The Flood Universal

Was the flood Universal or local? Seems this debate had not finished yet. Please give Scripture to what has been revealed to you.

Moderator - Universal; just look at the fossil beds across the world.

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 ---Mark_V. on 11/11/11
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--Warwick 11/16/11 (2/2)
If you wish to write to me you will do so respectfully.
I've always been appropriately respectful. It's not disrespectful to say someone lied when they did. Or point out wrongful personal attacks they make. Apparently you want me to be your silent victim while you abuse me.
It's YOU that's been disrespectful, not me.
If you are truly seeking answers you will put your annoyance behind you and proceed in a proper manner.
I said all along when you stop lying and making the derogatory personal attacks I will stop calling you on them. Why don't you JUST stop instead of pretending to take the high ground, while continuing derogatory attacks and condescending statements.
---Rocky on 11/16/11


Warwick, it seems like you expect everyone accept your posts, condescending lecturing, and personal attacks without question. Well I don't because they are often wrong and sometimes include lies and distortions. I have often asked questions of your posts which you would not answer, instead complaining about my "aggressive" questions (I guess that means ones you cannot answer or that show you wrong) and substituting derogatory personal attacks to hide the fact you won't respond. Your behavior is very unchristian.
---Rocky on 11/16/11


Looks like Rocky has hijacked yet another thread with his sick obsession for arguing. It's almost amuzing.
--Jed 11/16/11
The only thing that is amazing, although not surprising, is that you continue with the wrongful personal attacks, again proving what I have been saying all along. When I defend myself from the attacks by you and others, you accuse me of hijacking the thread and being obsessed. But it every case I have only been defending myself from the lies and distortions of others, just like I am now. Anyone can also go to the "Was Iraq War Worth it" and "Government Controlling Churches" threads see exactly what I am talking about and your repeated lies.
---Rocky on 11/16/11


--Warwick 11/16/11 (1/2)
Rocky what I have written is not insult, but observation. You too easily take offence and reply rudely.
And another wrongful attack, followed after by very condescending reproofs. You're the one replying rudely not me. Your again making more personal attacks is proof. And you, and the others I listed before, have repeatedly posted insults. You're just lying again when you say you haven't.
As I have written I am not obliged to answer any of your questions.
Off course you're not obliged. But you should not respond with personal attacks to cover when you don't. And readers should be made aware you are doing that.
(continued)
---Rocky on 11/16/11


The last time I wrote something like this,something objected, so I'm sorry if someone objects - nothing personal, REALLY

I see some disputes, between Rocky, Warwick, MarkV and Jed. In 1918, in Europe, there was the great armistice to end WWI. Is there anyway to have an armistice here???

I want to extend blessings to ALL FOUR OF YOU (one I already have an email connection)

BLESSINGS
---Peter on 11/16/11




Haven't been on here for a few days. I've been busy overseeing the remodelling of a new building we acquired for my business. Doesn't look like I've missed much. Everyone still saying the same old things. Looks like Rocky has hijacked yet another thread with his sick obsession for arguing. It's almost amuzing.
---Jed on 11/16/11


Haha, Rocky, what a piece of work!
---Jed on 11/16/11


--JIM 11/16/11
Rocky,I do not know why you are dragging me in on this thread,
I listed your name because your lies, distortions, and wrongful personal attacks on another thread help disprove Warwick's personal attack that I was paranoid. It's not paranoia when it is true.
this is something you say in 95% of your conversations "I proved you wrong"
And another gross exaggeration and lie that instead only proves you are the one not interested In truth like I am, and again proves I am not paranoid.
I am defensive a lot, but only because of NUMEROUS wrongful personal attacks like yours and Warwicks.
---Rocky on 11/16/11


Rocky what I have written is not insult, but observation. You too easily take offence and reply rudely.

As I have written I am not obliged to answer any of your questions.

If you wish to write to me you will do so respectfully. I will endeavour to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I will ask you questions and will expect a respectful reply.

If you are truly seeking answers you will put your annoyance behind you and proceed in a proper manner.

If you are not prepared to do things this way then we can have no further correspondence.

I discern from your attitude, and Biblical confusion that you were LDS. Is this so?
---Warwick on 11/16/11


It's truly amazing that I must continually defend myself from lies, distortions, and wrongful personal attacks of others considering themselves Christians. Usually they're doing it to cover when they cannot answer a simple on-topic question or related questions about the Bible. If you need proof, in addition to the lies on this thread, you can see more lies and personal attacks by Warwick, MarkV, Jed, JIM, Jerry6593, and andy3996 on the threads "Million Year Species", "Was Iraq War Worth It", "Is Bible Trustworthy", "What Are Concubines". "Just Accept Jesus Christ", and others. You can also see my numerous on-topic comments when not obliged to defend myself from the wolves in sheep's clothing.
---Rocky on 11/16/11




trav, ..when i ask you a reasonable question 3 times allready you contine to answer with nonsense.
---andy3996 on 11/16/11

Answered in the first reply. Posted 4 out of thousands of answering.
Andy:\\God ONLY came to save his own.
give a logic answer upon these statements? ---andy3996 on 11/15/11

Matt15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Psalm 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Psa 94:14
For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
Heb 8:8
....new covenant with house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Trav on 11/16/11


Mark, thanks for the explanation. As I have said many times it is sometimes difficult to discern exactly what peolle mean.

Thanks again.
---Warwick on 11/16/11


--Warwick 11/15/11
Rocky, you seem to focus on anything you perceive as "derogatory personal attacks"...
Wow. You start right off with another personal attack while trying to use the weasel word "seam" to protect yourself while still lying. You obviously have advanced skills in attacking.
please answer each of my replies, and questions, in a respectful manner.
I have and will respond to your posts in the appropriate manner as determined by what you post. When you post lies and derogatory personal attacks, like you did AGAIN in the above post, I will point that out. If you want me to stop saying saying those things all you have to do is stop doing them.
---Rocky on 11/16/11


Rocky..I do not know why you are dragging me in on this thread, but since you have, this is something you say in 95% of your conversations " I proved you wrong ". In my opinion this is your only motive, to try to prove someone wrong. You seem to have none of the "Iron sharpens Iron" intentions.
This is what i observe.
---JIM on 11/16/11


Rocky, I also agree with Warwich, anything anyone answers, you take them as "derogatory personal attacks"
--MarkV 11/16/11
Liar. Saying "anything anyone answers" is OBVIOUS EXXAGERATION, just on this thread I made many posts without claiming that. You're not interested in truth but have evil intent because I proved you wrong many times before. When I righteously show someone made a derogatory personal attack, they can't prove me wrong so they attack me for attacking them. But my rebuke was truthful and theirs isn't. You disprove Warwick's attack about me being paranoid, as do similar attacks by Jed, JIM, and erry6593. All of you made obvious derogatory personal attacks instead of sticking with subject.
---Rocky on 11/16/11


trav, indeed you speak nonunderstadable gibberish, it is also a technique to hide your tot ignorance about a subject. still when i ask you a reasonable question 3 times allready you contine to answer with nonsense. my advice....go think a few hours about my questions and then come back with a reazonable answer that will help all instead using too smart for my own shadow jargon...
---andy3996 on 11/16/11


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Rocky, I also agree with Warwich, anything anyone answers, you take them as "derogatory personal attacks"
If you want to be answered, you will get answers that do not agree with what you say. It's not an attack on you personally, unless someone like Jerry makes something up.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/11


--Warwick 11/14/11 - different post
I trust God's perfect unchanging word, which says the flood was universal.
Do you mean you trust the Bible or that you trust "God's word". They are different and using them interchangeably can create confusion. Plus God's word is inerrant, the Bible is not.
If "under the whole heavens" means only the heavens over some imagined flooded locality then that is all which belongs to God!
The truth of that statement depends on the assumption that the definition of "under the heavens" never changes. One might likewise think the definition of "heart" never changes, but an earlier post showed just that, as you yourself commented on.
---Rocky on 11/16/11


WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????

where do you come to this conclussion about me?????
---andy3996 on 11/15/11

Exactly. Your question is the answer.

Conclusion? Hasn't been concluded yet. But, by scripture. The omissions of scripture and the statements you stand on.
Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive, and hearing they may hear, and not understand, lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
---Trav on 11/16/11


Rocky: My apologies. I meant Trav, a fellow flood denier of yours.
---jerry6593 on 11/16/11

Ha. Only deny your bible school version. There was a flood. Covering the erets (land/Country).
Hey Noah don't forget the 900,000 thousand insects x 2 male/female. And food for them.
Jerry says it's gonna be a Global Flood...GOD doesn't know what he talking about. Jerry hasn't done the math Noah, but you'll need around 40 Arks at this rate. Jerry's gone walk about looking for bugs. Bugs are separate species from insects.
---Trav on 11/16/11


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Rocky, you seem to focus on anything you perceive as "derogatory personal attacks" and ignore the fact that I have answered countless of your questions to the best of my ability. And this despite the fact that you reply in a rather blunt and rude manner. I Am not your personal question answerer, and I am not obliged to answer any of your questions.

If you wish to pose further questions please do so. And please answer each of my replies, and questions,in a respectful manner.


How about an answer to my question regarding 2 Peter 3:6, and about the JW's and LDS.
---Warwick on 11/15/11


Jerry, I ask to give Scripture, not to accuse others of something because they don't agree with your Saturday Sabbath. Your accusations on Leej are very prideful. How can you say he hates the Ten Commandments and Jews, and then make it seem as if he is a muslim? You are the very reason why I know your observence of the Saturday Sabbath is a farce. It has not changed your mouth one bit. SDA doctrine does that to people. They puff their chest out as if they are very holy. But you are evidence of what it really means. Most of you are people who think your holier then others.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/11


Warwick, I am not in any way agreeing it was a local flood. I have read both accounts, or both sides, and do not agree it was local flood. Reading (Gen. v. 7:4) to me clearly suggest it was a Universal flood. "...and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made" Now because it says that, there is many questions people have if that happened. But no matter the questions and how things proceeded after that, is all on God. We only have what He said. That means the writer or reporter who wrote this part of Scripture was speaking noumenologically, as a spokemen for God. If he had been speaking from his point of view, what he saw, from mans perspective, then he would be speaking Phenomenologically.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/11


Rocky: My apologies. I meant Trav, a fellow flood denier of yours.
---jerry6593 on 11/16/11


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--warwick 11/15/11
Rocky you are very agressive and a little paranoid-they are all out to get me....
Another of your many derogatory personal attacks based on your lies and distortions.
--Warwick 11/4/11 multiple posts
1) Rocky, you are all over the place liker a mad woman's breakfast as they say.
2) I discern Rocky is not a genuine enquirer... Rocky asks many questions and rejects any answer given.
3) This is not intended as a put down...I do not consider you to be genuineYour problem...you are not prepared to accept Scripture as...should be good enough for you. But it isn't is it?...And there lies your problem
--Warwick 11/5/11
Rocky, your unbalanced postings...
---Rocky on 11/15/11


Rocky, do you get the point of 2 Peter 3:6? You only seem to comment upon things you can find fault with.

In this scripture the word 'world' is the Greek 'kosmos, which in context means the whole earth, the world system or the universe. It does not ever mean part of the world. I am sure you would agree that in this context it does not mean the whole universe.

Rocky you are very agressive and a little paranoid-they are all out to get me.... Were you involved in a cult which has made you this way? Perhaps JW or LDS?
---Warwick on 11/15/11


--Warwick 11/15/11
we use such terms (figures of speech) everyday of our lives.
I know what figures of speech are. Your comments are condescending and only show your own foolishness.
Why do they (figures of speech) only become hard to understand when they are in the Bible?
I never said they did. You seem to be the one having trouble with them not me,
Otherwise you would not propose the 'days' of Genesis 1 may not be days!
Or they could be a a figure of speech, as already discussed.
I don't imagine anyone considers parables as necessarily recounting actual events
That was my point exactly. They are another example of text not to be taken literally.
---Rocky on 11/15/11


Rocky I will explain more fully.

Regarding "sick as a dog," we use such terms (figures of speech) everyday of our lives. Why do they (figures of speech) only become hard to understand when they are in the Bible?

You do have trouble discerning prose from allegory or metaphor. Otherwise you would not propose the 'days' of Genesis 1 may not be days!~

All Scripture is Truth. That it includes figures of speech does not detract from this. I don't imagine anyone considers parables as necessarily recounting actual events however they convey truth. Jesus spoke of the good Samaritan to illustrate what a good neighbour is.

As regards gaps in my writing I am trying to write in paragraphs, which is normal practice.
---Warwick on 11/15/11


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Mark, Peter 3:6 "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." Note "world" comes from Greek 'kosmos' meaning whole earth, plus its humans. Kosmos never means a locality, no matter how large. Look it up.

When Jesus said the people of the ancient world were eating and drinking etc, he was saying they were going about their daily lives disinterested in that which was about to come upon them. "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." people will be eating and drinking (going about their daily lives disinterested, and unaware of what is about to befall them. Nothing in this suggests they were a particular people in some local area.
---Warwick on 11/15/11


TRAV//As stated you miss the full scriptural meal deal.

You want you saved at the expense of Israel.
Thereby you disregard anything in scripture pertaining to them. Not unique in that.
You perceive that Judah is all Israel.
You wouldn't, actually couldn't look for a sheep. Knowing nothing of them. They do not concern you. You are concerned with you. Not with anything Christ said, commanded or the prophets prophesied. Your mark and your sign.
Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
where do you come to this conclussion about me????? or are you misstaking me for someone else?????
---andy3996 on 11/15/11


trav by the way if someone is asking a simple question for clarification, why is it that 9 out of ten answers are insultif?
---andy3996 on 11/15/11


so trav, the nonjews are unable to receive salvation or your trying to say something different?
---andy3996 on 11/15/11

As stated you miss the full scriptural meal deal.

You want you saved at the expense of Israel.
Thereby you disregard anything in scripture pertaining to them. Not unique in that.
You perceive that Judah is all Israel.
You wouldn't, actually couldn't look for a sheep. Knowing nothing of them. They do not concern you. You are concerned with you. Not with anything Christ said, commanded or the prophets prophesied. Your mark and your sign.
Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
---Trav on 11/15/11


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Jerry... I challenge you to show where I proposed that universal flood was a recent invention.
---Rocky on 11/15/11

Jerry meant me. I stated a recent invention. It is. Global earth was not known until recently. Translators certainly didn't know. Here lies the tangle.
Erets meant the country or land. Locust covered the world/erets. Nah. Don't fit does it.
Civilizations marched right through this flood period. Flood happened....to the people it happened too. Noah's line. Disturbs kiwi's and even me when started researching. All fits scripturally into one ARK not thirty+ that 3million species would take. Add specialized food Plus the seven clean types. Heavens? Erets under the Heavens in context of the times.
---Trav on 11/15/11


so trav, the nonjews are unable to receive salvation or your trying to say something different?
---andy3996 on 11/15/11


Warwick 11/14/11
Yes, but we know it's not. Once you acknowledge that all the writing isn't literal, it becomes a question of interpretation and decision as to what is literal and what is not. Not only a decision made by the reader, but one that was made also by those translating the manuscripts, which now could be hidden in the text.
Maybe a "day" is not a "day". Or the whole story is allegory.
---Rocky on 11/14/11

When the self elected preach opposed to GOD's witnesses accountability is in effect...for them.
Agree with you above. Searching a matter out.
GOD's witnesses in scripture always unite. When self elect's avoid/change them.....it's clear. They lose positional drug they are slave too.
---Trav on 11/15/11


God ONLY came to save his own.
give a logic answer upon these statements? ---andy3996 on 11/15/11

Sir u are avoiding a full meal deal.
Not knowing the mind or heart of GOD,u speculate/logic weakly as we all would. Not utilizing or believing his witnesses you go circle in confusion. Preacher typical i find. Sadly.

Matt15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Psalm 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Psalm 94:14
For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
Hebrews 8:8
....new covenant with house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Trav on 11/15/11


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the notion of a universal flood being a recent invention (as proposed by Rocky) was silly.
--jerry6593
And Jerry's dishonesty and deceit continue. I challenge you to show where I proposed that universal flood was a recent invention. This post continues the lies and personal attacks you have continued over multiple posts on other threads such as "Is the Bible Trustworthy" and "Million Years Species Development".
I ask again, why do so many Christians on this site lie repeatedly like Jerry does?
---Rocky on 11/15/11


I find it interesting that those who do not believe the Bible's account of a universal, world-wide flood also do not believe in the 6-day Creation and the ...seventh-day Sabbath.
---jerry6593 on 11/12/11
Why is that so interesting? The simple common feature is recognizing that some parts of the Bible may not have been intended to be taken literally.
---Rocky on 11/15/11


We use such terms everyday of our lives. Why do they only become hard to understand when they are in the Bible?
--Warwick 11/14/11
I have no idea. Are they? I never said they were hard to understand. However I don't recall reading in the Bible that "She is as sick as a dog" or "Every dog has its day". Would you provide the citations for me please.
I was only making the point that not everything in the Bible is intended to be taken literally. I think I made that point quite well and quite clearly. Why all the extraneous questions? And why skip so many lines on your posts when the directions ask us not to do that?
---Rocky on 11/15/11


Rocky 2 Peter 3:5 "..they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed" Is that some of heavens or all the heavens-Genesis 7:19?

"and the earth was formed out of water and by water." Did God create some part of the earth, that part some imagine was flooded, or did He create the whole earth?

2 Peter 3:6 "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." Note "world" comes from Greek 'kosmos' meaning whole earth, plus its humans.

Kosmos is never used of a locality, no matter how large.

As Peter is talking of Noah's flood this is corroboration Jerry was correct in quoting Matthew 24:39,39.

Scripture interprets Scripture.
---Warwick on 11/15/11


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Rocky, IF Adam was not the first man,IF NOT all humanity (safe Noah and his family) was destroyed in a (universal) flood. THEN not every human is the full image of God and God ONLY came to save his own. Now could you give a logic answer upon these statements?

since man in contrast with the zoological primates, differs in so many aspects. intelligence knowledge religion to mention a few.
---andy3996 on 11/15/11


Trav: "2344 B.C. Is the date of the flood. Not 6,000 years ago."

Tru dat. I meant that the Genesis story began 6000 years ago, and that the notion of a universal flood being a recent invention (as proposed by Rocky) was silly.

I also appreciate your responses to Lee for his hatred of the Ten Commandments and Jews. Maybe he's a Muslim.
---jerry6593 on 11/15/11


Rocky, the passage that Jerry gave in Matthew 24:38,39 is referring to a Universal Coming even though you are right when Jesus referred to Noah's time, He was speaking about those people who were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. If it is going to be like then, and what happened to them, it will be the same when Jesus Comes. Jesus here is speaking concerning the whole earth. He could not possibly be saying the same as in Noah's time, in one particular area only. His Second Coming effects everyone. Your questions on textproofing are good though.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/11


Jesus Christ believed in a universal flood (Mat 24:38,39), and that was 2000 years ago.
--jerry6593 11/14/11
That scripture does NOT prove what you state it proves. Nowhere does it say "universal". It does state "and took them all away" but this clearly refers to those in the prior verse "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage". This casual reference most likely refers only to those in the region near Noah. It would be a funny way to refer to people worldwide.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


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Rocky, read Numbers 7:11-78 and Exodus 19:10-16. Are these ordinary days or not?

As regards "heart" we do know what it means, because you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to know such things. We know the sun does not rise but we say sunrise. Is this also confusing?

He is a pillar of the church. Is he made of stone?

She is as sick as a dog. Is she a dog?

Every dog has its day. Do they only have it on one day?

We use such terms everyday of our lives. Why do they only become hard to understand when they are in the Bible?


---Warwick on 11/14/11


From many decades experience I know scienctific 'Facts' constantly change.

I trust God's perfect unchanging word, which says the flood was universal.

Genesis 7:19 speaking of the Flood says "...all the high mountains under the whole heavens were covered."

"Under the whole heavens" is also used in the OT six times, not referring to the flood, always meaning the whole earth. For example Job 41:11 '"Whatever is under the whole heavens is mine" says the Lord."

If "under the whole heavens" means only the heavens over some imagined flooded locality then that is all which belongs to God! Not so "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" 1 Corinthians 10:26.
---Warwick on 11/14/11


Rocky, in the contexts you supplied "heart" is to be taken as the seat of the emotions: the seat of thinking, intelligence, pondering, remembering, and acts of the will.
--Warwick 11/14/11
Yes, but we know it's not. Once you acknowledge that all the writing isn't literal, it becomes a question of interpretation and decision as to what is literal and what is not. Not only a decision made by the reader, but one that was made also by those translating the manuscripts, which now could be hidden in the text.
Discerning some figures of speech is not that difficult, others could remain hidden. Maybe a "day" is not a "day". Or the whole story is allegory.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


Rocky, in the contexts you supplied "heart" is to be taken as the seat of the emotions: the seat of thinking, intelligence, pondering, remembering, and acts of the will.

Understanding literature is easier for those who can discern figures of speech. It takes time and application.

I do not take things "literally" but at face-value, as written, unless some good reason not to do so exists. For example "raining cats and dogs" isn't meant to be taken at face-value but that the writer meant it was raining torrentially.

Conversely Genesis 1 is straight-forward, take it at face-value Hebrew prose, as linguist Dr Charles Taylor says. Regius Professor of Hebrew, James Barr, Oxford University, agrees.
---Warwick on 11/14/11


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//"perhaps, if your debate showed me how this relates to the revelation in the scriptures, it will convince me" [emphasis added]
I'm not trying to convince you of anything.//

MarkV, I did not ask you to convince me. i asked for scripture to convince me, so i can get an even deeper understanding of scripture and how it pertains to the revelation of jesus christ.

what i am asking is to the relevance of your opinion. every question goes round and round with different variations. we have a duty to point out Truth and not engage a silly debate.
---aka on 11/14/11


Is each OT occurrence of the word heart meant to be taken literally, referring to an actual heart, or allegorically?
Gen_6:5 every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen_17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart
Gen_20:5 He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart
Gen_24:45 And before I had done speaking in mine heart
Gen_42:28 their heart failed them, and they were afraid
Gen_45:26 Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.
Exo_4:14 he will be glad in his heart.
Exo_4:21 I will harden his heart
Exo_7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened
Exo_9:14 For send all my plagues upon thine heart
---Rocky on 11/14/11


To all, I put this blog down, not so that you guys can argue, or call each other names, but in order to get everyone to think, and add to the discussion what has been revealed to you concerning the flood. Each one person can help adding to the discussion by including something that can help everyone come to understand the passages better. A little work and godly discussion can help build each other to a better understanding also on how they found something that someone else did not know about. For example, we know a writer wrote about the flood, and know he was speaking as he was a reporter there, yet know whoever it was, his work is inspired by God so it is Truth. How can that help in understanding the flood? Whether local or not?
---Mark_V. on 11/14/11


Those on this forum that promote adherence to Jewish laws are the modern day Judaizers, the slave children of Hagar.Gal. 4.24f
---lee1538 on 11/14/11

You claim you obey them. All ten? You try.
Oh, you don't obey them?
Do you have one GOD?
Craved someone's wife today? Yesterday?
You haven't broke any laws? Then you are a liar.

Why would you persecute/insult someone trying to please GOD obeying his laws?
You do.

By the way, they were all of Israels laws....not just Judah's. Heb 8:8-10/Jer 31:31-33.
They broke em. They were punished/divorced by them. Free now from the original marriage. Virgins to burn the oil or trim the wick.
---Trav on 11/14/11


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Trav: "Universal flood is just an unsupportable late comer doctrine."
That's just plain silly.
Genesis supports a universal flood, and that was 6000 years ago. Jesus Christ believed in a universal flood (Mat 24:38,39), and that was 2000 years ago.
---jerry6593 on 11/14/11

2344 B.C. Is the date of the flood. Not 6,000 years ago.
Silly is ur little girl fearfulness.
Matt 24:38-39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

"took them all". The context is all them related Noah. Noah was left. Why would he punish an Eskimo, or an aboriginal.
Your fear/laziness of study is not faith. My GOD gives truth, absolving fear.
---Trav on 11/14/11


//I find it interesting that those who do not believe the Bible's account of a universal, world-wide flood also do not believe in the 6-day Creation and the ...seventh-day Sabbath.
---jerry6593 on 11/12/11

I believe most people here believe that the Sabbath is the 7th day, however, they do believe that the Bible does not command it of Christians.

It is just too easy to see that if Jewish laws such as the Sabbath, dietary laws, etc. were imposed on the church it would have greatly hindered the spread of the gospel.

Those on this forum that promote adherence to Jewish laws are the modern day Judaizers, the slave children of Hagar.Gal. 4.24f
---lee1538 on 11/14/11


Genesis 7:19 speaking of the Flood says "...all the high mountains under the whole heavens were covered."

Once again world-wide.
---Warwick on 11/11/11

Hmmm,from one who carefully avoids.
Water pressure, geologic strata, number of species, civilizations marching through flood. Notably n past the prophets and Israel. Yet your interpretation is true? No signs yet.
Cain was cursed by God, he was driven "from the face of the earth" Erets. (Gen. 4:14). Cain wasn't sent to mars.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot's daughters said, "there is not a man in the earth (erets) to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth (erets)" (Gen. 19:31). not a man in
erets"
---Trav on 11/14/11


--Jed 11/11/11
scientific evidence also supports the universal flood.
I see Jed is back telling more lies.
From Wikipedia "Flood geology"
in the contemporary literature, the term "flood geology" is often taken to be synonymous with young Earth creationism or creation science. "Flood geology" CONTRADICTS the scientific consensus in geology, physics, chemistry, molecular genetics, evolutionary biology, archaeology, and paleontology, and the scientific community considers the subject to be PSEUDOSCIENCE.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


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I find it interesting that those who do not believe the Bible's account of a universal, world-wide flood also do not believe in the 6-day Creation and the ...seventh-day Sabbath.
---jerry6593 on 11/12/11

Me too. Find that anyone who cannot research is not Berean. They are afraid what they might find obviously.
Been there. Had that fear. Then it occurred to me. GOD is GOD. Regardless what fantasy I like or you hold....it's his story. His will.
You don't see me in these arguments much about the 6 days. Length of day or 7th day.
There is Gen 1 creation. Gen 2 creation. Find this interesting. And since you or anyone else have "no" defining witnesses to any of this....it is open to Berean.
---Trav on 11/14/11


People in Noah's day were smarter than the people of New Orleans
According to Gen 7:24, the flood waters lasted 150 days.
---jerry6593 on 11/14/11

Like you would know that. Ha. They died. GOD didn't intend for Noah's relations to escape. New Orleans had a Christian est government nursing them.
Noah's day had never seen rain.
There is not enough water in the world,or the deep to cover all the 30,000' mountains. If there were you have water pressure of 800PSI killing all diverse life,seeds,trees 1.5 million species. Which you avoid thinking of.
Duh....the water did escape. In 194 days! Dry!
Your nursing your pet "traditions" like another group has done.
---Trav on 11/14/11


Bill, that is a good point. That after 7 months the flood was still high enough that the ark landed on mountains. If it was just a local event, no matter how large an area, the waters would have long flowed away.
---Warwick on 11/14/11


Trav: "Universal flood is just an unsupportable late comer doctrine."

That's just plain silly. As Bill Willa pointed out, Genesis supports a universal flood, and that was 6000 years ago. Jesus Christ believed in a universal flood (Mat 24:38,39), and that was 2000 years ago.

People in Noah's day were smarter than the people of New Orleans who stayed behind when Katrina hit. If a "local" flood were to come, they would MOVE to higher ground. According to Gen 7:24, the flood waters lasted 150 days. A normal person today can walk 3000 miles in 150 days. Surely you don't call a 3000 mile radius flood "local".
---jerry6593 on 11/14/11


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Aka, you said,
"perhaps, if your debate showed me how this relates to the revelation in the scriptures, it will convince me"
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. The fact is you do not have to answer to the question and move on. There is many blogs I do not care about so I don't answer them. You have that right.
The fact is that every writer of Scripture sometimes writes as if looking through the eyes of God (as spokemen for God), particularly in moral matters, but in the narrative sections they frequently describe things the way they appear from a human perspective (as reporters speaking phenomenologically).
---Mark_V. on 11/14/11


The scripture does say "the mountains were covered" (Genesis 7:20) with water. If the flood was local, how could "mountains" locally be covered without the water going over the rest of the earth? It would take a miracle to keep the water covering "mountains" only in a local area (c: > "including Ararat," comes to mind > yes, it says "the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat." (in Genesis 8:4).

By the way, it does say, "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." (in Genesis 7:11) So, I understand the water was not supplied only by rain, but from "the great deep".
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/13/11


//It is not about pride. It is about truth. // trav
again, what is the significance?
is it really about Truth or is it about being right?
---aka on 11/12/11

What significance are these days we live in. Same a Noe's?
What significance was the knowledge of Peters day? Faith they had encompassed the known knowledge of the time.
Right...wrong? It's about studying to show your kids, grandkids their fathers GOSPEL...is truth. Front to back. With witnesses in scripture and outside scripture.
Does a universal flood change salvation? Does a local? No. Universal flood is just an unsupportable late comer doctrine. I only point, it is up to th
e individual to look to his own. I'm not accountable after pointing.
---Trav on 11/13/11


//It is not about pride. It is about truth. // trav

again, what is the significance?

i do understand that deep bible spelunking brings out huge gems.

but, i am still trying to figure out whether regional or universal has anything to do with the witness provided in 1 Peter?

is it really about Truth or is it about being right?
---aka on 11/12/11


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I find it interesting that those who do not believe the Bible's account of a universal, world-wide flood also do not believe in the 6-day Creation and the establishment of the holy seventh-day Sabbath. They rather seem to prefer the man-made conjecture that is Evolution (albeit perhaps theistic) and a counterfeit rest day. Yet, I have not seen anyone offer any credible support - either biblical or scientific - for these spurrious theories.
---jerry6593 on 11/12/11


My faith needed sound witnessed answers and this is so for many. My faith has answers and witnesses. Yours has questions unanswered. -Trav 11/11/11

My Bible has all the answers I need. But it does not hurt that scientific evidence also supports the universal flood.
---Jed on 11/11/11


Genesis 7:19 speaking of the Flood says "...all the high mountains under the whole heavens were covered."

"Under the whole heavens" is also used in the OT six times, not referring to the flood, always meaning the whole earth. For example Job 41:11 '"Whatever is under the whole heavens is mine" says the Lord." Does the Lord own all or not?

"All the fountains of the great deep" Genesis 7:11, 8:22. "the deep" (Hebrew tehom) relates to Genesis 1:2 referring to the 1 ocean which covered the whole world before God caused land to appear. Note the flood account say "all the fountains of the great deep burst forth", not some!

Once again world-wide.
---Warwick on 11/11/11


A special Hebrew word 'Mabbul' was used 13 times-only of this Flood.

2 Peter 2:5 "..did not spare the ancient world (Greek kosmos)...", i.e. the whole world.

Jesus said the flood "...destroyed them all. Luke 17:27

Only BiblioSceptics would imagine Jesus doen't know what "all" means!

Word meanings are decided by context. In some contexts 'all' (Hebrew 'kol') can refer to such as the Roman empire, not the whole earth. However in the flood account we read All the high mountains under all the heavens were covered. Leupold (Exposition of Genesis Vol.1 pp301-2) says the text disposes of the question of the universality of the flood.

Once again world-wide.
---Warwick on 11/11/11


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The flood was absolutley universal.
---Jed on 11/11/11

Well it's not a problem for those of blinkered faith. It's only a problem for doubting Thomas's like myself. And any Children/grandchildren faith being challenged by the information available today and coming tomorrow.

Hey, Christians are supposed to be afflicted/persecuted testing their faith. U have been and will be.
My faith needed sound witnessed answers and this is so for many. My faith has answers and witnesses. Yours has questions unanswered.

Ur obviously a giant man of faith. NonBerean quality, not needing proof. Hope all kids,kids,kids are giants also. Sincerely. No malice intended. You spelled Absolutely exactly like "w".
---Trav on 11/11/11


Did God just create the 'erets' under Noah, or did He create the whole planet? -Gen 1
Gen 6:1-7 didn't apply to all men? Those civilizations that 'walked on through time' were not wicked in God's eyes?
Gen 6:12-13 all flesh?
Gen 7:21-23 all flesh, every man, all that was in the dry land(charabah) died, ..unless one suggests there were men not on dry ground that survived.
The exensive use of 'all', 'every', and 'only' could only lead a person to one conclusion, apart from man's so called knowledge, a universal flood.
This flood is evident by the millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the world..we call it the fossil layer.
The 'civilizations started after the Tower of Babel.
Gen 11
---micha9344 on 11/11/11


they are both compelling. but, we are called to provide witness to convince.
---aka on 11/11/11

It is not about pride. It is about truth. Truth isn't necessary and doesn't suit everyone.
Facts in Science are undermining some kids faith. Not mine.
I remember my resistance to a Country or Land flood. It took scripture and a couple of (slow)years for me to research. There was a flood. 450,000sq mi huge. Covered the entire "Erets" under the heavens.
Global doc problems: Intense water pressure, 1.5 million species of life,civilizations marching through this period....well easy to say truth makes sense and represents comforting freedom. From denom puffys. My scripture aligns with fact and knowledge.
---Trav on 11/11/11


The flood was absolutley universal.
---Jed on 11/11/11


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Was the flood universal?

To do that it would not have been necessary for all the earth to be covered with water since most of the world was not yet fully populated.
---lee1538 on 11/11/11

Nor is it fully populated now.
Civilizations marched through the flood period. Including the remainder of Noah's. His imperfect relations perished in a flood.
Fossil "beds" Mark mentioned prove the opposite rather than the one unified thick layer of every species/kind dying suddenly. Would be interesting mixture. No such uniform thick layer exists around the world.
Fossils are made continuously. Research a Texan that died in a plane crash. Fossilized lower leg still has the cowboy boot on it.
---Trav on 11/11/11


Yes, world wide. Gen.7 v's 19 - 20, Isa.54 v 9.

It just wasn't in Noah's neighborhood only.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/11/11


i have heard both sides and they are both compelling. but, we are called to provide witness to convince.

perhaps, if your debate showed me how this relates to the revelation in the scriptures, it will convince me. otherwise, you are participating in useless debate that is based on your own pride and not God's dominion.
---aka on 11/11/11


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