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Is Justification Dependent

Is justification dependence upon the condition of repentance or faith alone in Christ?

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 ---lee1538 on 11/12/11
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Rocky, you will sizzle as you say if you reject the eternal Son of God. And only God knows who will sizzle. You don't and I don't. Your destiney is known by God because He knows all things. Rejecting Him, only gives evidence you are one who will sizzle.
John usa, you are right, the God of scripture is not likeable. He does not measure up to how man would like Him to be towards them. They are sinners who only deserve death. And they are not happy God took them out of the path of hell and decided to give them life. Instead of giving thanks and glory to God, they whin and complain God should not have Omniscience. That He should not know, because it is not right to know. They want a god they can create to their own liking.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/11


Rocky, yeah, that's a bummer. Even my saying "that's a bummer" right now was predetermined.
---John.usa on 11/18/11


I receive not honour from men.
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh_8:15Ye judge after the flesh, I judge no man.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Rev_7:9
---TheSeg on 11/18/11


--christan 11/18/11
you have the audacity to call me a liar?
Yes, when you wrote "Rocky, condescending is when you continue to mock the word of God with your understanding from free-will angle" that was a lie as I stated because claiming man has free-will does not mock God.
And the whole Bible is a testament to fee will. Two anecdotal cases you cited don't change that. Although since you refused several times to answer the simple questions I asked about your Bible beliefs we don't know how you consider the Bible.
After the Bible quotes I provided, can you still claim that it's "mind-boggling" to beleive one must have faith and repent before receiving Spirit?
---Rocky on 11/18/11


--christan 11/18/11 second post
Rocky, you quote verses about the Spirit from the epistles and tell everyone that "everyone" in there means the "whole world".
I do not see where I wrote that. Please provide a quote and citation.
The EPISTLES were written, addressed only to Christians... were they addressed to the whole world?
More specifically, Romans was addressed only to To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. So should it be read only by Christians in Rome, or perhaps only THOSE at the time to whom it was sent? I believe that the Bible was compiled to make the witness of Christ and his guidance available to all.
---Rocky on 11/18/11




John.usa//the god most Christians believe in is not particularly likeable, considering that he created billions of people, knowing in advance most of them he would have to torture in hell forever.
---
And millions will never hear the gospel and be saved, unless you hold the view that there is salvation apart from believing in Christ.

Again what God does is for His own glory and not ours. So if the Potter elects to save some and not others, is that not His prerogative or right to do what He wishes with that which He has created?
---lee1538 on 11/18/11


Mark V., the god most Christians believe in is not particularly likeable, considering that he created billions of people, knowing in advance most of them he would have to torture in hell forever.
---John.usa on 11/18/11


I was told that my eternal destiny was decided before the foundation of the world and that there's nothing I can do that will affect it. That means that human life is ultimately meaningless.
--John.usa 11/17/11
Correct. You're an automaton simply executing the command instructions already written, moving like gears in a machine driven by other gears, in a scientific manner of action and reaction, cause and effect. But life isn't meaningless. We are here to glorify a God with a huge inferiority complex, God-sized, requiring billions of people to either sing His praises or fear him. But vengeance will be His as He's already predestined billions to roast forever in Hell-fire. If you were't predestined to believe this, you will sizzle.
---Rocky on 11/18/11


Rocky, let's see how "The whole Bible is a testament to free-will." fit into the teachings of the Holy Bible.

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." Proverbs 21:1

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

And you have the audacity to call me a liar? The Word of God calls you a liar!
---christan on 11/18/11


Rocky, you quote verses about the Spirit from the epistles and tell everyone that "everyone" in there means the "whole world". That's where you have exposed the very darkness of your heart. Jesus said, "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

The EPISTLES were written, addressed only to Christians. Since you have the "free-will, open thy eyes and heart to read the introduction of each epistle, were they addressed to the whole world? The apostles were Christians. They were written to teach, guide, admonish and rebuke only Christians.

Finally, ONLY God has the FREEWILL to do as He please with His creation, including you and I.
---christan on 11/18/11




"---Josef on 11/16/11
Amen. And thank you"

You are quite welcome chria9396, and thank you. As always it was my pleasure, with all praises due the Father.
---Josef on 11/17/11


John usa, how can your life be meaningless? You have made a great impact on many people. What about your family, didn't they mean anything? How about your own friends, don't they mean anything? I believe it was one of the most rediculous statement anyone made. And just because someone told you your eternal destiney has been known by God from the foundation of the world. That means if you hadn't been told that, your life would mean a whole lot? Rediculous. Do you hate God that much for knowing your own destiney? We are talking about God Almighty who is Omniscient, not your neighbor.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/11


--christan 11/17/11
Rocky, condescending is when you continue to mock the word of God with your line of understanding from the free-will angle.
Double lie. Believing God gave man free will doesn't mock Him, it was His choice. Nor is it condescending by any definition of that word. You start post proving you've no interest in truth.
So by your precious "free-will", it was not God who called you, right?
The whole Bible is a testament to free-will. Why did God send prophets to rebuke and admonish if He already predestined the acts of man and who would be saved? Why send Jesus to teach and preach? Think of all his words telling us how to behave. All meaningless?
---Rocky on 11/18/11


More "Spirit" for christan
1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co_2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co_12:7-11 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit, To another faith by the same Spirit, to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit, But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit
---Rocky on 11/18/11


John.usa that just goes to prove even a broken clock is right twice a day.
---TheSeg on 11/18/11


I was told that my eternal destiny was decided before the foundation of the world and that there's nothing I can do that will affect it. That means that human life is ultimately meaningless.
---John.usa on 11/17/11


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Rocky, condescending is when you continue to mock the word of God with your line of understanding from the free-will angle. I have no problem if you continue to insist you have "free-will" to save yourself from damnation, it's your own soul you are accountable for not me. You have already made up your mind when you "chose" to question anyone here, not to agree but to be condescending yourself.

But let the Word shut you up about your "free-will" to turn to the Lord, Acts 2:39 says, "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." So by your precious "free-will", it was not God who called you, right?
---christan on 11/17/11




How do you explain away Cornelius's salvation.

If he were already saved and had the Holy spirit FIRST, then this makes no sense.

ORDER of events.

1.Peter preached the Gospel, 2.Cornelius and family believed
3.Holy Spirit was given to Cornelius
4.Cornelius baptized.

Ephesians AFTER you believe you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/11


--christan 11/17/11 (1/2)
Rocky, please open your eyes and read carefully.
Starting with a condescending attack betrays your motive and lack of good faith, and only embarrasses yourself when it's shown that you are the one not seeing clearly.
When the Bible says "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" that CLEARY means receiving the Holy Ghost. Are you implying that the Holy Spirit cannot be a gift because the only gift we get from God is the gift of life? That doesn't make sense. God gives many gifts. Even if not a "gift", the verse still clearly says that we receive the Spirit after faith, which was the subject of discussion, not whether it's a gift or not.
(continued)
---Rocky on 11/17/11


//Have you even ask yourself why would you even need to have the Holy Spirit since you can by your own "free-will" repent and turn to Christ on your own?

Yes, that is a problem since we read in Philippians 1:13 "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure".

And we also read - "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:10

If one becomes a super Christian, Scripture says 'Let him that boast boast in the Lord.' 1 Cor. 1:31

As to free will, we only have that within the boundaries of the will of God as His plans will not be thrawed.
---lee1538 on 11/17/11


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--christan 11/17/11 (2/2)
Further, eternal life is the gift of God through Jesus, NOT a gift of the Spirit.
Verse 37 prior to 38 clearly tells us those who heard the Gospel were "pricked in their heart", meaning, they were already born of the Spirit
No, if they received the Holy Spirit then it would have said so, and not said they received the gift of the Spirit later, in the following verse. For more information about "pricked in their heart", see my post on 11/15 below about the Light of Christ.
You didn't shown what I wrote before was wrong, much less "mind-boggling and deep in deception". You only embarrass yourself with your outrageous, wrongful attack.
---Rocky on 11/17/11


Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
According to this everyone has some faith. Rom_3:3, Heb_11:6
So can a person repent without faith? No, this is clear!

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

But can you receive the Holy Spirit, without knowing youre a sinner?
Again isn't this is up to God? Look up blessed is the man!
But this I know!
If we know or believe anything, it's is only by the grace of God.
Peace!
---TheSeg on 11/17/11


Have you even ask yourself why would you even need to have the Holy Spirit since you can by your own "free-will" repent and turn to Christ on your own?
--christan 11/17/11
Have YOU ever asked yourself why did Jesus send the Spirit?
Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
See second post with more scriptures on Spirit
---Rocky on 11/17/11


I believe that it is the HOLY GHOST who saves us and changes us that makes us born again. So without the HOLY GHOST we are not saved.
---Samuel on 11/17/11


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Rocky, please open your eyes and read carefully. Peter said, "...ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.". He did not say, "... ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

The Holy Spirit is not the gift but eternal life in Jesus Christ is the gift. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Verse 37 prior to 38 clearly tells us those who heard the Gospel were "pricked in their heart", meaning, they were already born of the Spirit to begin with.

Have you even ask yourself why would you even need to have the Holy Spirit since you can by your own "free-will" repent and turn to Christ on your own?
---christan on 11/17/11


---Rocky 11/13/11
Act_2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
---christan 11/15/11
You believe you must have faith, repentance and baptism before receiving the Holy Spirit.. which is clearly mind-boggling and deep in deception.
--Rocky 11/15/11
Why is it "mind-boggling and deep in deception" when it's what the Bible teaches?
Christan, I see you have posted again but did not respond to this question.
How's the formula in Acts "mind-boggling and deep in deception"? Please cite scripture showing what you claim.
I would also still appreciate your answer to the questions about the Bible asked earlier.
---Rocky on 11/17/11


Justification by faith in the Scripture is when God declares the sinner not guilty before Him. God does not justify every sinner outside of the faith that He freely gives according to His good pleasure.

Only repentance with faith in Jesus Christ is there salvation. For Hebrews 11:6 says, But without faith it is impossible to please him..." and we know from Paul that this faith spoken of must be "a gift from God"

People who claim they repent to God, and many religions profess this are not going to be forgiven because their repentance does not come with faith in Jesus Christ. ONLY faith from God is what binds the Christian to His Savior Jesus Christ, and not everyone receives this precious gift.
---christan on 11/16/11


Rocky...Here's a question for you.
Why in Johns Gospel is the word repent or repentance not found ?
--JIM 11/16/11
I have no idea why you are asking me this but I will play your silly game. I don't know. Why?
---Rocky on 11/16/11


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Rocky...Here's a question for you.
Why in Johns Gospel is the word repent or repentance not found ?
---JIM on 11/16/11


---Josef on 11/16/11
Amen. And thank you
---chria9396 on 11/16/11


When the Apostle Paul experienced the presence of Jesus on the Damascus Road, when was he justified? Before or after he repented?

Paul claims that as to the law he was blameless Gal. 3:6.
---lee1538 on 11/16/11


JamesL 11/15/11 (2/2)
Response to (continued)
Job_42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner...
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation...
Luk 10:13 for if the mighty works had been done... they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins
---Rocky on 11/16/11


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JamesL 11/15/11 (1/2)
--Rocky 11/14/11
[Repentance] encompasses a lot more than a simple change of mind.
--JamesL 11/15/11
don't suppose you would care to explain how you come to that erroneous conclusion?... I've already explained what the words mean...It's nothing short of scriptural abuse to load a preconceived idea into the words of scripture.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity, I will be sorry for my sin.
(continued)
---Rocky on 11/16/11


"Is justification dependence upon.. repentance or faith alone in Christ?" Neither, justification rest solely with the Father and the Son.
And "He who searches the hearts, knows the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom 8:27-30 We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Rom 3:24
---Josef on 11/16/11


[repentance]
\\encompasses a lot more than a simple change of mind.\\
---Rocky on 11/14/11

I don't suppose you would care to explain how you come to that erroneous conclusion?

After all, I've already explained what the words mean in the language of the New Testament. I'll even do it again -

Meta - a change of condition
Noeo - to think or comprehend

Metanoeo - a change in the condition of your thinking. PERIOD.

It's nothing short of scriptural abuse to load a preconceived idea into the words of scripture.
---James_L on 11/15/11


Rocky, I am a Christian only by the grace of God through faith that He so graciously blessed me. Regardless of what version of Scripture is presented, His Spirit will never lie to me as I believe in the promise of Christ,

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

Instead of being convicted by His Spirit, you seem to be more obsessed with the versions of Scriptures available even commenting "Are they all inspired and inerrant?" I know His Spirit will always be with His people to guide and teach. That's all I have to say to you.
---christan on 11/15/11


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Rocky, what Bible I use is irrelevant, but if you must know, I read the NIV, KJV, NKJV, NASB.
--christan 11/15/11
The KJV was translated from what a Greek version of the NT referred to as Textus Receptus. Most versions after the 19th century were based on better Greek translations made after comparison with many old manuscripts, such as the Nestle-Aland translation. Are they all inspired and inerrant?
Also please answer the other questions I asked before about the Bible and your related beliefs.
---Rocky on 11/15/11


christan 11/15/11
You believe you must have faith, repentance and baptism before receiving the Holy Spirit.. which is clearly mind-boggling and deep in deception.
Why is it "mind-boggling and deep in deception" when it's what the Bible teaches?
Rocky 11/13/11
Act_2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
How's the formula in Acts "mind-boggling and deep in deception"? Please cite your scripture, christen, showing what you claim. Certainly you've unequivocal proof lest you wouldn't call the other "mind-boggling and deep in deception". Not just wrong nor even strange. But "mind-boggling and deep in deception".
---Rocky on 11/15/11


Luke 22:31_32 "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

so, Jesus prayed that the faith God gave fail not?
---Nana on 11/15/11


Rocky, what Bible I use is irrelevant, but if you must know, I read the NIV, KJV, NKJV, NASB. I believe, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... and he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:3,5 - ie I'm guided by the Holy Spirit.

You believe that you must have faith, repentance and baptism before receiving the Holy Spirit.. which is clearly mind-boggling and deep in deception. If you already have faith in Jesus Christ, why does God even need to give you His Spirit?

For me, it's because of His Spirit that I am made alive, given faith that I now believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. This faith I have is a gift from God as said in the Bible. See the difference? Like day and night!
---christan on 11/15/11


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When God gloriously save me, He gave me the comforter which is the Holy Spirit. Then I was baptized as a statment of my salvation.
---shira4368 on 11/15/11


christan, Ephesians 2:1 says NOTHING about being born of the spirit first, meaning before faith and repentance, but only reports a general change from being sinful to being changed by God. And verse 8 clearly shows that faith comes before grace since "by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH". Clearly faith is required to receive grace. In my post to you below on 11/12/11, I listed 6 verses all that clearly showed faith comes first. Why do you choose to ignore those and then twist and contort the two you chose?
I am still waiting for your answers to those questions about the Bible and your beliefs about it. Why won't you respond to them?
---Rocky on 11/15/11


And that is why I believe repentance comes more often AFTER one comes to know Christ, since it is the Spirit that convicts one of sinfulness.
--lee1538 11/15/11
The "light of Christ" (see 2_Cor_4:4-6) brings us to a knowledge of Christ. In the receptive, this instills faith which forces us to see and confront our sinfulness. If we then chose to repent, accept him as our savior, and take up the cross, then He provides the Holy Spirit to guide us on our journey.
---Rocky on 11/15/11


"You have it backwards. Faith comes first. Faith, repentance, baptism, then the gift of the Holy Ghost." Rocky

And if I have it backwards, then Paul was lying when he taught in Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,, ie born of the Spirit FIRST. And in verse 8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

The sequence is orderly: born of the Holy Spirit, God's grace works faith in the sinner to repent. And clearly, Faith is a gift from God.

According to your sequence, you already have faith, why would you even then need the Holy Spirit? Scripture says it's you who have it backwards.
---christan on 11/15/11


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//People in many different situations are unlikely to repent, such as,,,

And that is why I believe repentance comes more often AFTER one comes to know Christ, since it is the Spirit that convicts one of sinfulness.
---lee1538 on 11/15/11


If we really 'know' Christ, we will automatically repent.
--lee153
People in many different situations are unlikely to repent, such as:
1) Those who think they know him but really don't
2) Those who really know him, but have an evil nature
3) Others who see the truth but are not willing to take up the cross.
Of those that answer the call, repent, and receive the Spirit, many will not persevere, but be tripped up because of the desires of their heart and worldly enticements.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


--JamesL 11/14/11
So I didn't put any words in your mouth, I merely anticipated what your answer would be if you ever defined repentance, and I was correct.
In that one sentence you state that you did not put words in my mouth but then admit that you did. You did and my rebuke to you was correct.
you define it as "realize our sinfulness with remorse, and regret, and experience a sincere desire to change."
That is correct.
Repent simply means to have a change of mind.
No, you just wrote my definition above and it encompasses a lot more than a simple change of mind.
How can you so quickly confuse yourself twice in one post?
---Rocky on 11/14/11


I totally agree that God's Spirit points out our sinfulness, however, I still ask if repentance is what MUST occurs before or after one is born again by His Spirit?
--lee1538 11/14/11
I believe the light of Christ reveals his truth to receptive people sufficient to instilling faith in his message and plan of salvation. This reveals one's own sins and can bring one to repentance. If we continue to accept the word and repent, our faith grows and we may receive the gift of the spirit to guide us. If we continue to live in the light, repenting as needed, our faith may grow further, till we can move mountains, although I haven't seen any mountains moving recently.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


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//I never said that was the definition. Please don't put words in my mouth then deny your words.\\
---Rocky on 11/13/11

according to you, faith and repentance...

"are two separate steps. First faith and then repentence."

and you define it as...

"realize our sinfulness with remorse, and regret, and experience a sincere desire to change."

In other words, turn from sin, right?

So I didn't put any words in your mouth, I merely anticipated what your answer would be if you ever defined repentance, and I was correct.

And the definition doesn't change at all. Repent simply means to have a change of mind. The difference is what we're changing our thinking about.
---James_L on 11/14/11


Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So are you saying God revealed it to him, only because he repented?
---TheSeg on 11/14/11


This almost sounds like the What came first, the egg or the chicken argument? Well, at least we know this, faith and repentance are both involved in conversion.
Thomas a Kempis, It is not deep words that make a man holy and upright, it is a good life which maketh a man dear to God. I had rather feel contrition than be skilful in the definition thereof. If thou knewest the whole Bible, and the sayings of all the philosophers, what should all this profit thee without the love and grace of God? Vanity of vanities, all is vanity, save to love God, and Him only to serve. That is the highest wisdom, to cast the world behind us, and to reach forward to the heavenly kingdom."
---Poppa_Bear on 11/14/11


// If we really 'know' Christ, we will automatically repent.

I totally agree that God's Spirit points out our sinfulness, however, I still ask the question if repentance is what MUST occurs before or after one is born again by His Spirit?

I know all about the preachers that have the altar calls with the call to repent, but can one receive Christ into his or her life without repentance? I believe one may, however, as how one falls short of the glory of God is something that continues throughout our lives.
---lee1538 on 11/14/11


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We cannot see God as God, and Christ as God's Son, without repenting
--Peter 11/14/11
I concur. When we see the glory of what is right, we naturally become aware of what we have been doing wrong, the depravity of it, and, assuming we don't have an evil heart, desire to change and follow a righteous life in Jesus.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


Lee: If we really 'know' Christ, we will automatically repent.

We cannot see God as God, and Christ as God's Son, without repenting

If we have faith without repenting, I suspect it means we don't understand the God we have faith in
---Peter on 11/14/11


---TheSeg on 11/14/11
This is one of 2 times Jesus is amazed in the gossips (other is in hometown amazed at lack of faith). Jesus was amazed at his faith because he did not have to see it happen to believe that his servant was healed. "just say the word and it will happen." The servant was healed for the centurion's well being. Another example is when Jesus raises the girl from the dead. The girl was in heaven, she was fine and at peace, but Jesus healed her to be with mother. Same with Mary and Martha at death of Lazarus.
---Scott1 on 11/14/11


What comes first, grace or faith? For by grace you have been saved through faith... Obviously grace.
--lee1538 11/14/11
No, the faith came first as the scripture you quoted states - "through faith". Neither of the other two scriptures you cite, Romans 9:6 or John 6:28 say otherwise.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


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I have a question.
Mat_8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Why was the servant healed?

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Why was the man sick of the palsy sins forgiven?

Did either of these men, believe or have faith?
There no way for you to know is there?

But go ahead tell me what and how I should believe.
You who have faith, you who believe, even you who are born-again!
May God forgive me again and again for calling you serpents, generation of vipers!
Mat_23:15!
---TheSeg on 11/14/11


What comes first, grace or faith?

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.Eph. 2:8
Obviously grace.

We also see the many testimonies of those who have had Damascus Road experiences in their conversion.

God's grace is irresistible to those whom He has elected to salvation. Romans 9:6,John 6:28f
---lee1538 on 11/14/11


--christan 11/12/11
Only when one is born of the Spirit of God, through His special grace the sinner receives faith from God.
You have it backwards. Faith comes first. Faith, repentance, baptism, then the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mat_9:2 Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat_9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mar_4:40 he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mar_11:22 Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace,
Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith
---Rocky on 11/14/11


--JamesL 11/13/11
Rocky, your definition of 'repent' is wrong. It doesn't mean 'turn from sin'.
I never said that was the definition. Please don't put words in my mouth then deny your words. Why do so many do that on this site?
However YOU mostly confirm it as "changing thinking" about wrongful behavior seems quite similar to "turning from sin" - changing thinking so you don't do the old behavior.
When 'repent' is directed toward unbelievers, it's focused on what they think about Christ
I don't believe the definition does change based on who is the repenter. There is no reason to assume it does. Can you provide scriptural support for your position?.
---Rocky on 11/13/11


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I understand what you are trying to say. It is because we BELEIVE that God is abel to forgive all our sins that we repent.
--francis 11/13/11
Not quite. We don't repent because we think it leads to forgiveness or a reward, even if it does. We repent because we see the truth in Christ and realize our sinfulness with remorse, and regret, and experience a sincere desire to change. If we are repenting just to be forgiven it might not be true repentance.
---Rocky on 11/14/11


read john 14-21,if u want peace and joy,peace that passes all undestanding then keep his commands,in othere words obey,then joy and peace will be yours,and justification ,and all other questions will be mute.this mystery is beyond the worlds comprehension,and in direct conflict with the flesh,very few people,even believers live this way.
---tom2 on 11/14/11


Rocky,
your definition of 'repent' is wrong. It doesn't mean 'turn from sin'.

In the New Testament, the words are:
Metanoeo (repent) means 'change thinking'
Metanoia (repentance) means 'thinking changed'

Change thinking about what? The context has to determine that. And part of the context is WHO is being addressed - believers or unbelievers

For the most part, scripture was written to, and for, believers.

When 'repent' is directed toward unbelievers, it's focused on what they think about Christ.

But for believers, repentance is focused on what we think about our actions.

Context, Rocky, context.
---James_L on 11/13/11


Well, Lee . . . I understand that justification is God making us right with Him when we repent and put our faith in Jesus. So, they are together. The justification by God is dependent on how God changes us, in true repentance turning us from sin to Him, and God produces in us the faith that has us truly trusting in Jesus because of God changing us in repentance so we are trusting. So, all this makes us right (justified) with God, being forgiven and also changed to be right spiritually and in our attitude. Then, though, we need much more correction and work to perfect us in His love (Romans 5:5) making us more maturely right in His sight > 1 Peter 3:4 > 1 John 4:17.
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/13/11


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---Rocky on 11/13/11
I understand what you aretrying to say. It is because we BELEIVE that God is abel to forgive all our sins that we repent.
---francis on 11/13/11


Justification by FAITH. All we have to do is BELIEVE
--francis 1/13/11
Say what?
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus... then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God...
---Rocky on 11/13/11


Lee, RC is a very gifted teacher, I encourage anyone to try to read at least one book by him, or check out a video or audio series by him. As far as the jail scenario, theoretically this would mean that we are justified or condemned on a daily basses. Paul preached justification by faith, but still stated that grace wasnt a license to sin. Believers sin, greave the Holy Spirit, are disciplined by their Father, restored to fellowship through prayer, other believers and the truths of the scriptures. We will fall 7 times over, but His hand will sustain.
Either way, keep believing, repenting and trusting Jesus for your salvation through the finished work of the cross.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 11/13/11


if u are attempting a word discription i must say reconcilliation might be a better choice
---tom2 on 11/13/11


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If a man is in jail for the things he has previously committed and is given a full pardon, he is justified.

If he goes back to doing the same things he did before, where does he end up? Back in jail.

I have not read a single verse in scripture that says sins we have not even committed yet are already forgiven.

The purpose of salvation is to change us, not to give us an excuse to keep on sinning our lives away because Jesus died for us. That is mocking God's grace.
---JackB on 11/13/11


Father, i have faith in you alone. therefore, i repent of engaging in useless debate. thank you, Lord, for providing the only way to be justified in Your presence.
---aka on 11/13/11


"Jesus ALWAYS forgave first, or declared someone whole through faith, then afterwards said "go and sin no more"
---James_L on 11/13/11

And John said, "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance..." and "Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias."
Paul said:
Hebrews 12:13 "And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way, but let it rather be healed."
The flesh and its works need be subdued before and after...

John 5:14 "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."
---Nana on 11/13/11


faith and repentance are the same thing in the context of justification.
--JamesL 11/13/11
No they are not. They are two separate steps. First faith and then repentence.
---Rocky on 11/13/11


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faith and repentance are the same thing in the context of justification.

Considering that 'repent' means to have a change of mind, when someone becomes convinced by God that Christ's work is sufficient, his mind has been changed to where he now has faith in Christ. So he has repented from unbelief to belief.

Ultimately, the focus of repentance depends on the context.

Unbelievers are NEVER commanded to 'repent' about sins, they are only called to repent about where their faith rests.

BELIEVERS are called to repent about sins.

Jesus ALWAYS forgave first, or declared someone whole through faith, then afterwards said "go and sin no more"
---James_L on 11/13/11


From Essential Truths of the Chritian faith by RC Sproul.

[1. Justification is an act of God whereby He declares unjust sinners to be just after He has imputed to them the righteousness of Christ.
2. No one can earn justification by good works.
3. Faith is the necessary condition to receive the imputation of the merits of christ.
4. Justification requires a living & real faith, not a mere profession of faith.

Martin Luther claimed justification by faith alone is the article upon which the church stands or falls. This doctrine of the Reformation was seen as the battleground for nothing less than the gospel itself.]

Yes, the believer will repent of sin, however, I am not sure this is part of justification.
---lee1538 on 11/13/11


Justification by FAITH. All we have to do is BELIEVE
---francis on 11/13/11


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