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What The Flood Local

Was the flood local? The debate has not ended. Scripture please. Why is it local? if it is. Why is it universal? if it is.

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 ---Mark_V. on 11/17/11
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Rocky, Read the Holy Bible, and not the falsehood of sinners. The size of the ark was given, and the number of the animals was given. Again, they did fit comfortably, and there is no debate.
---Eloy on 11/20/11


your ourburst here is out of willful ignorance... Well eat these words... Laugh all you want in God's face.
--kathr 11/20/11
I posted several times on this thread refuting, in a rational way, point by point, the points you made in your previous posts. Once again you do not respond to the refutations I made to try to support your original claims, but respond with outrageous personal attacks and lies. Again you clearly show you are not a good Christian and have no shame but a hard heart.
---Rocky on 11/20/11


It is obvious the flood of Noah's time was localized as we can see that the penguins... kangaroos didn't head north to get on Noah's boat.
--lee1538 11/20/11
Oh but they were teleported to the Ark so it would have "all" animals, all thousands and thousands of species from all over the world. Then they were all teleported back to their respective continents, like those you list and the Bison in America, Koala Bear in Australia, and Panda in China. And the many unique species just on the Galapagos Islands. Keeping track of where thousands of animals had to be returned was a huge task, but hey, He's God. Guess he had nothing better to do with His time.
---Rocky on 11/20/11


Rocky, it's obvious you did not read Genesis 9:8-19, therefore your ourburst here is out of willful ignorance .

There are less that 10 COVENANTS God Spoke to man. Each and every covenent is of upmost importance. When God says COVENANT that is The Sovereign WORD of God. And that is where I take issue most of all. Scoffong at Covenant Promises.

The Rainow IS a sign of God's Covenant just as Circumcision was.

Now I bet your laughing your head off calling THAT a farry tail, as you look on wickedepedia to give the scientiific reason for Rainbows.

Well eat these words. Hebrews 11:-13 God said the things that are seen are not made out of the things that do appear.

Laugh all you want in God's face.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/11


REAL science lines up with REAL Bible interpretation.
--jerry6593
Utter nonsense.
Psa 93:1 the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
1Ch 16:30 the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Psa 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Ecc 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
For arguing heliocentrism, the Church banned his book and sentence Galileo to house arrest FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.
(continued)
---Rocky on 11/20/11




//Warwick, any reasonable person would understand this Psalm isn't to be taken at face-value but none the less carries truth.

If the entire globe was flooded, then where did the water go when it subsided?

No, I think you are reading into the text things that are really not there.

"all" does not alway mean "all" in the Bible. For instance, In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. Luke 2:1

Obviously 'all the world' did not include China, Russia, or other parts of the world.

Usually those who pitch the literalists viewpoint are those who really the ones that would toss a Galileo in jail or put others to the burning stake.
---lee1538 on 11/20/11


There is no debate
--Eloy
The only thing about which there is no debate is that there is no way ONE of every animal would fit in the Ark let alone two or seven. When the larger world was explored, and the diverse animal population became known, most reasoning Christians came to realize the flood story was not meant to be taken literally. But some diehards, who hold to the literalness of the Bible lest they not know what to believe or do, will go to their grave believing the fantasy.
---Rocky on 11/20/11


Genesis 1:9, 10 where God speaks the dry land into existence. Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear", and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas...." Hmmm. The waters were gathered into one place, the land must have been in the other place! What a novel thought!

So the world today with is visible continents were either not visible at that time or this is when the supercontinent split?? OR if the ocean levels dropped even further today even more land/earth would appear.

We really don't know what the the earth looked like at the time of creation...do we.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/11


BTW Jesus considered the flood was an historical event which destroyed them "all" all-see Luke 17:26,27,
--Warwick 11/20/11
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
"all" who? All Israel? All people that knew Noah? Only married people? YOU read into that passage what YOU want to believe. It states nothing that addresses the size or extent of the flood.
---Rocky on 11/20/11


So that concludes it for me. Genesis 1:9 is a fact of creation. Let the waters be gathered to ONE PLACE and let the dry land appear. So verse 6 tells us there was also water below and above the earth. This could be something like we see of Saturn. The earth had a ring of frozen water above the earth surrounding the whole earth, and that is what came to earth during the flood. Do we see a sepatration of water above the earth today? The flood was regional because the dry earth at that time was regional. AND the flood covered the dry land that in fact led to a Complete covering of the whole earth being in water.
---kathr453 on 11/20/11




Psalm isn't to be taken at face-value
--warwick 11/20/11
Now you have me confused. On another thread you wrote that you take the entire Bible at "face-value". Now you write that Psalms is not to be taken at "face-value".
Which is it?
What exactly does "face-value" mean as you use it?
Do you believe the Bible is literal, inerrant, or infallible?
Why?
Which version of the Bible do you use?
Are all versions and translations of the Bible the "Word of God" or just some? If so, which?
These issues go to the heart of the question about a literal flood.
---Rocky on 11/20/11


It is obvious the flood of Noah's time was localized as we can see that the penguins of the Antarctic continent or the kangaroos in Australia did not head north to get on Noah's boat.

It is true that the flood was over all the earth - all the earth in the area where Noah and family lived.

The fundies will never acknowledge the truth no matter the arguments. I would not be surprised if some still believed the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, etc. But such are those that are opposed to scientific inquiry and theory.

Lu 13:24 Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The verse does NOT mean one has to be narrow-minded in its broadest sense.
---lee1538 on 11/20/11


\\Cluny if all else fails read the Bible. If you were conversant with it you would not ask such a question.
---Warwick on 11/19/11\\

God said, "The end of all flesh is u pon Me".

Unless fish are made are vegetables, then they are made of flesh.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/20/11


Rocky read Genesis 9:11 "... never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.

'Local-flooders' claim "all flesh" and "the earth" means a local flood destroying people in some unknown part of the earth. If this is true God has lied because He said He would never do this again. But He has as local floods are regular events with great loss of animal and human life.

You cannot have it both ways. Either the flood was global destroying all land-dwelling air-breathing creatures world-wide, except those upon the ark. And God says He will never cause such a flood again, and he hasn't' Or the flood was local and God has broken His word.
---Warwick on 11/20/11


Lee, any reasonable person would understand this Psalm isn't to be taken at face-value but none the less carries truth.

I believe the reason you cannot see the difference between this and the sober truth of Genesis Chapters 1,6-9, points not to ignorance of literature but to bias enforced by your belief in long-ages/ evolution.

Hebrews 11 concerns faith in God's word and what it achieves. No figures of speech here.

In Luke 17:27 Jesus gives the sober Truth of the destruction of all people in the flood. No figures of speech here.

With this in mind read John 3:12 "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe, how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"
---Warwick on 11/19/11


Genesis 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters [were] on the face of THE WHOLE EARTH
--francis 11/19/11
That implies the occupants of the ark knew the waters covered the WHOLE EARTH because the dove found not rest. First, how did they query the dove on its return? Did someone speak "dove"?
Did the dove search the entire earth, including those portions 12,500 miles away (for a 25,000 mile round trip)? How many trips for the dove to cover ALL the Earth? How many doves? Did they have more than 2 doves? Were these jet-powered or super doves?
---Rocky on 11/19/11


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--kathr4453 11/19/11
If this were in fact a local flood, there would be no need for a Covenant
Thats silly. There was no need. God CHOSE to make a covenant and could make one regardless of local or universal flood. It still wiped out numerous people.
Those who say it was local, make God a Liar and Covenant breaker since history has shown many horrible local floods.
There you go repeating the lie that because some hold the Bible is not literal they're making God a liar. That's utter foolishness. We're not making a liar of God but you're making a liar of yourself. Why keep repeating that error?
What do horrible local floods have to do with proving anything?
---Rocky on 11/19/11


---kathr4453 on 11/19/11

I would have posted something, but It would just have been a repeat of all that you posted.
GREAT JOB,
---francis on 11/19/11


Cluny if all else fails read the Bible. If you were conversant with it you would not ask such a question.
---Warwick on 11/19/11


Rocky, quite often myths and legends are stories the foundation of which is based in historical events. However these distorted accounts have quite ridiculous additions. However the Genesis flood account is written in sober language.

BTW Jesus considered the flood was an historical event which destroyed them "all" all-see Luke 17:26,27, just as real as Soddom and Gomorrah, He says. Who knows best, Jesus the Creator who was there from the beginning or man?

2 Peter 3:5.6 confirms it was a reality, covering the whole "world." He says "scoffers" will doubt this. Those who scoff at the word of God will not inherit eternal life as to be a scoffer is to oppose faith, which is sin.
---Warwick on 11/20/11


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There is no debate: "And note, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven: every thing that in the earth shall die. And the waters were on the face of the whole earth. And the world was overflowed with water and perished." Gn.6:17+ 7:4,12,17-24+ 8:3,9+ II Peter 3:6.
---Eloy on 11/20/11


kahtr something is very corrupt about how you answer others. you look at any opportunity to speak dirt about someone. How do people put up with you where you live? you mix evil words with godly words. you are very bad person.
---mary on 11/20/11


Kathr, your accusions and opinions of other brothers continue. You don't have the mind of Christ. You have what Rom. 1:28 describes,
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting, being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciouness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, (and hear this) evil-mindedness, they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things"
And hear what God has to say of those,
"Therefore you are inexcusable O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself"
---Mark_V. on 11/20/11


// I do find it interesting those who BOAST of their greater intelligence and learning GOD CALLS WILLFULLY IGNORANT!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/11 //

Profound indeed! It seems impossible to get these science wannabes to face the truth that God meant exactly what He said, and REAL science lines up with REAL Bible interpretation.

The core issue is still unanswered:

The greater issue is the root cause of the flood(s). Were they just naturally occurring local floods brought on by random weather/seismic phenomena, or was it a single, world-wide flood sent from God Himself. The Bible indicates the latter. If they were just ordinary local floods, the Bible wouldn't make mention of them as a God-sent means of destroying wicked men.
---jerry6593 on 11/20/11


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How to have the mind of a heretic:

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 56:5
Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts are against me for evil.


OR


How to have the mind of Christ:

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ,
---kathr4453 on 11/20/11


Those who have the mind of Christ KNOW after reading Genesis 9:8-19 God does not make frivolous Covenants with man over the weather.

We see here an Everlasting COVENANT that God would never again destroy the earth with water. The Next will be with fire, and that won't be a local fire either.

If this were in fact a local flood, there would be no need for a Covenant, and we know this covenant was unconditional. Nothing on mans part had to be done or kept concerning the Noah Covenant.

Those who say it was local, make God a Liar and Covenant breaker since history has shown many horrible local floods.

As far as the rivers clappingYES, and God can even cause the rocks and stones cry out if He so wanted.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/11


Did all fish die in the Flood?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/19/11


Flood myths are a theme widespread among many cultures including the foundational myths of the Quich and Mayas, through Deucalion in Greek mythology, the Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Hindu puranic story of Manu which has some very strong parallels with the story of Noah.
In the last centuries BC and the first centuries AD, many Jewish rabbis formed interpretations of the story of Noah's Ark. Their teachings were collected in the Talmud, which dates from between 200 and 500 AD. The individual volumes of the Talmud are known as Tractates and include different versions of the Ark story.
--Wikipedia
---Rocky on 11/19/11


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whole earth

Genesis 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters [were] on the face of THE WHOLE EARTH
---francis on 11/19/11


Rocky //It is interesting to read the intellectual gymnastics of Flood literalists as knowledge about the world and science evolved and progressed.

yes, and it is hard to beleive that some of these literalists are actually dumber than dumb.

Obviously they really do not know how to think.

Perhaps their emotions really prevent them from doing any intelligence reasoning.

And you are heretic if you disagree with them.

Is it possible to really gain anything in any forum with the like of what we see on this forum?
---lee1538 on 11/19/11


It is interesting to read the intellectual gymnastics of Flood literalists as knowledge about the world and science evolved and progressed. There is not room to list them here but a brief summary can be found in the article "Noahs Ark" on Wikipedia which also states:
Although the account of the ark was traditionally accepted as historical, by the 19th century the growing impact of scientific investigation and biblical interpretation had led many people to abandon a literal view in favor of a more metaphoric understanding
Note that they are not talking just about atheists here, but many good Christians and Biblical scholars.
---Rocky on 11/19/11


I believe the passage in 2 Peter speak about "The world that then existed" (v. 3:6) referring to the world order as it was before the flood. The second world order " which is now" (v.3:7) is the one were in. In the first, man lived to 900 years, the one now lives to about 70 years. Peter was making a point that there is a third form of the heavens and earth yet to come following another cataclysm. God promised not to destroy the earth again with water, In the future, God will destroy the heavens and the earth with fire ( Is.66:15: Dan. 7:9,10: Mic. 1:4: Mal. 4:1: Matt. 3:11,12). The present world order is reserved for future judgment, which will come by the Word of God just as creation and the flood came by God.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/11


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Generally people that are capable of thinking more than once a day will not take everything in the Bible literally.

((Ps 98:8 ))----
So if you really want to believe in the tooth fairy or that the regional flood of Noah's day was worldwide, then go ahead. There is little anyone can do to change the mind of one who has not been trained to think outside the status quo.

---lee1538 on 11/18/11

Thinking outside the status quo is to think ourside of Christ who we have the mind of.

Yes and this is where heresy and false teachers come in.

People please read ALL of 2nd Peter.

The Word of God EXPOSES these GNOSTICS.

Beware of them!
---kathr4453 on 11/19/11


Warwick, interestingly John CAlvin believed in a LITERAL 6 day 24 hour creation. It's even in the WCF as well. He also believen in a literal global flood. So did Augustine.

So really, LeeJ is rebelling against Calvinism and Augustine traching.

Funny thing too, had LeeJ lived under Calvin's rule and reign, LeeJ most likely would have been burned at the stake for heresy.

So if Calvin was wrong then about this, he was probably wrong on many issues.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/11


If the flood was local, being humanity then was local, God didn't need a flood to wipe out humanity. How long did it take Noah to build the ark and bring in the animals? 100 years? God would have just asked Noah and family to MOVE, bring the animals with him. Then he would have destroyed man like he did in Sodom and Gamorah. Lot and his family were asked to leave, not build a fire-proof house.

THE WHOLE earth was destroyed for a reason too. and THAT part of the issue you will NEVER understand. WHY? Because that comes through revelation of Jesus Christ to those who belong to Christ, HIS ELECT.

So insult all you want, like a little girl.
That only shows how immature and ignorant you are who cannot stand on TRUTH for argument.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/11


Paul are you retarded? Or just need glasses? Maybe you are one of those who sees demons and Satan? I did not read one sentence where mark v said anyone was a child of Satan. Only you I've read said such thing. You are a real trouble maker, I can see that.
---mary on 11/18/11


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Kathr, I had a great response to your answer, but decided not to lower myself to you level. As I explained on the demon blog. When Jesus told Peter, "Get behind me satan" He was not seeing satan face to face but that Peter was been a mouthpiece for satan. That is what you do Kathr. You speak for him and that is not what I expected from those who answered this blog. You are able to contribute without using him to defend you. You use 2 Peter 3:6,7. So I know it is possible for you to do that. But you go back to your old self every time. You cannot help it.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/11


Several ancient records speak of a massive flood.
---lee1538 on 11/18/11


And exactly who kept these records? People who lived through the flood? So your saying ancient records of people who didnt die in the massive flood kept these records, claiming it was local?

OR, Noah's family carried these records down from genertion to generation as this only family left filled the earth even knew about the flood and could record it..

Oh please don't tell me you are with Trav that many did not die in the flood? Trav's whole belief on that is they were not human with souls. THIS is where his racism comes in.

Indians, blacks etc have no soul?AKA gentiles.



Can't get any more distructive than that.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/11


Well, MarkV and LeeJ, and Rocky, THOSE who are WILLFULLY ignorant according to God's word are listed with the WICKED... Yes, Satans little ones... Eat your own words... ignorant LIARS!
--kathr4453 11/18/11
And once again, after I prove kathr's on-topic statements wrong she does not respond to the points raised, but instead again resorts to outrageous personal attacks. Her vengeful, off-topic, personal attacks prove she has no interest in finding truth or speaking it. That is not the behavior of a good Christian.
---Rocky on 11/18/11


I simply interpret Kathryns ranting as that of a small infantile child trying hard to get attention from those that are far more mature.

However, we should understand that in the past she has had emotional problems requiring the care of mental health professionals
---lee1538 on 11/18/11


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Warwick //Lee, kath is correct, you are willing ignorant.

Generally people that are capable of thinking more than once a day will not take everything in the Bible literally.

Ps 98:8 Let the rivers clap their hands, let the hills sing for joy together, let them sing before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth.

So if you really want to believe in the tooth fairy or that the regional flood of Noah's day was worldwide, then go ahead. There is little anyone can do to change the mind of one who has not been trained to think outside the status quo.

It was really not too long ago, that the church had its interpretation of scripture that the earth was the center of our universe and Galileo was censured.
---lee1538 on 11/18/11


//You sure have your nerve MarkV, calling people here Satan's children when it comes to anyone who disagrees with your false teachings on Salvation.

Unfortunately there are those among us that should know better than to return an insult with an insult of equal value.

But I do beleive that in any Christian forum or for that matter in a church, Satan does intervene and set one against another and often by encouaging some to label others as being Calvinists, or willfully ignorant or even wicked.

We all should know better and be aware that we are being manipulated.
---lee1538 on 11/18/11


Well, MarkV and LeeJ, and Rocky, THOSE who are WILLFULLY ignorant according to God's word are listed with the WICKED we are to be warned against. YES, Satan's little ones, the father of LIES, who is YOUR father.

BUT remember, since you have no will of your own, GOD made you willfully ignorant and has reserved those ignorant for the day of Judgement.

Eat your own words....and be judged by them.

NOW we know all calvinists here on line are ignorant LIARS!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/11


2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

MarkV, you are out of line here. 2 Peter 2 warns of those who bring in heresies, and continues on in Chapter 3 with those damnable heresies.
---James on 11/18/11


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You sure have your nerve MarkV, calling people here Satan's children when it comes to anyone who disagrees with your false teachings on Salvation.

Why is it when Scripture so clearly tells us this flood was global you viciously attack those who have made an excellent argument in support of scripture.

Are you all so very twisted in every area of scripture?

Twisted minds and a twisted mouth go hand in hand.
---Paul on 11/18/11


According to LeeJ/Trav, they know EXACTLY where heaven is.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/11

Well, we do and will Berean what the Hebrew context was of the word.
We recognize Brawling without looking it up.
You wear the garment/rabbi's robe of a man but speak with the heart of a foolish bitter woman. Not all men represent your previous husband. You do not represent an obedient wife.
Proverbs 21:9
It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
---Trav on 11/18/11


Scholars discovered in the Ark narrative two complete, coherent, parallel stories. It is stated twice over, for example, that God was angered with his creation, but the reasons given are slightly different, we are told that there was a single pair of each animal aboard, but also there were seven pairs of the clean animals, that the source of the water was rain, but also it came from the "windows of Heaven" and "fountains of the Deep", that the rains lasted forty days, but the waters rose for 150. Gradually, scholars came to agree that this was how the entire Pentateuch had been written: the work of many authors over many centuries, combining separate sources into a single whole,
--Wikipedia
---Rocky on 11/18/11


The only lie is that statement. People can call the flood local and believe that the flood story is allegory, not that anyone, much less God, lied. Using statements intended to deceive and intimidate says more about the author than anything else.
---Rocky on 11/18/11

You are correct Rocky.
A blind woman or man will call light darkness. Even if they hold the light next to their eyes. They get no benefit of it.
Only our Lord can cure blindness.
Even then by request. Some perceiving they see will never ask. As in:
John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, andI should heal them.
---Trav on 11/18/11


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Lee, kath is correct, you are willing ignorant.

You reject sections of God's word because of your man-made long-ages/evolutionary beliefs. This forces you to reject Biblical realities e.g. 6-day creation and the world-wide flood.

Come clean and admit the truth.

Jesus obviously believed the flood was historical reality ".....until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all."

Peter says "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." The world being the whole globe and the world system.

As Jesus says "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"
---Warwick on 11/18/11


There is not a single diluvian stratum at the same geological level around the entire planet. Cluny//

Cluny, you may want to read The Genesis Flood by John C Whitcomb and Henry M. Morris.


Someone gave me this book way back in the mid 80's. It's AWESOME!

I recommend all of you read it.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/11


Cluny, interesting comment. The fossil record so loved by evolutionists does not exist anywhere in the world, in the completeness, and order, as represented in evolutionary text books.

But that does not stop them from depicting it as if it does!
---Warwick on 11/18/11


Rocky,"But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." 2 Peter 3:6

Genesis says the world was deluged and destroyed-every land-dwelling air-breathing creature (except on the ark) perished.

Peter was obviously referring to this flood when He wrote "the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." How many times has the world been deluged and destroyed?

John 3:16 God loved the world. "World" here is the Greek 'kosmos' the whole world as per 2 Peter 3:6.

God loved the whole world, not part of it.
---Warwick on 11/18/11


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I've been thinking about the flood for the last few days.

Seems to me that the MAIN lesson in the flood story is that no matter how great and widespread a disaster, God's providence still comes through, and His plans will NOT be frustrated.

How does it seem to you?

\\And today we see the effort to stop stem cell research because it may open doorways to healing illnesses.\\

I'm not against stem-cell research.

I'm against EMBRYONIC stem-cell research.

There are places where stem cells can be gathered without killing unborn babies and scrambling them.

God hates human sacrifice.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/18/11


//But again, the difference is between man's reasoning(( Worldly knowledge)) or FAITH, just simply believing what God stated is true.

Yes, we all remember Galileo who was shown scripture that proved the earth was the center of the universe.

And today we see the effort to stop stem cell research because it may open doorways to healing illnesses.

Yes, I can see anyone who disagrees with know-it-all Dr. Kathryn is labeled a pawn of Satan and a heretic. But that is a problem with arrogant housewives, is it not?

Sorry but there is little or no reason to reject the fact that Noah's flood was anything but localized. Several ancient records speak of a massive flood.
---lee1538 on 11/18/11


2 Peter 3:5-7
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

I do find it interesting those who BOAST of their greater intelligence and learning GOD CALLS WILLFULLY IGNORANT!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/11


Kathr, please don't highjack this blog with your satanic remarks, for you said,

"Once Satan has his hooks in you, then you begin to doubt this and that, a little here, a little there and WOOPS..heritic"

Satan is not invited to this blog. You can go to the "Demon blogs" and present him there. He has nothing whatsoever to do with the "Flood". You cannot stop from bringing him as your defense when you want to attack someone. All you do is talk an have no Scripture to proof anything. You want to join in, bring the Word of God, do not bring your partner with you. What you can do is make your own blog where he can be included. There you can include him on everything you say.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/11


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\\today scientists have proved the flood was over the whole earth.\\

Actually, this is not true.

There is not a single diluvian stratum at the same geological level around the entire planet.

While this does not in itself disprove a global flood, it DOES conflict with your statement that "scientists have proved" one.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/18/11


--kathr4453
But again, the difference is between man's reasoning(( Worldly knowledge)) or FAITH, just simply believing what God stated is true.
Or a third alternative, the Bible contains some allegory not meant to be taken literally.
Kinda like satan saying to Eve,,,"God REALLY didn't say that or mean THAT".
Perhaps he really did mean it in that case, but that does not mean it could not be allegory in other cases. Your line of reasoning is bad logic.
Once Satan has his hooks in you, then you begin to doubt this and that, a little here,
Or Satan uses that logic and your fear to keep you from discerning the truth about allegory. Again false logic.
---Rocky on 11/18/11


MarkV: The greater issue is the root cause of the flood(s). Were they just naturally occurring local floods brought on by random weather phenomena, or was it a single, world-wide flood sent from God Himself. The Bible indicates the latter. If they were just ordinary local floods, the Bible wouldn't make mention of them as a God-sent means of destroying wicked men.
---jerry6593 on 11/18/11


--Kathr 11/17/11 first post
If people weren't in Australia, neither were animals
False statement. Animals probably predated humans throughout the world for millions of years. For instance, humans are a relatively new occurrence in America, having been here less than 15,000 years while animals have been here millions of years.
When God gives boundries He tells us what those boundries are.
Yes, we know about the boundaries which He tells us, but we have no idea if there are other boundaries he did not tell us, because he did not tell us. So that line of reasoning shows nothing.
God also destroyed the whole earth
Or the story is allegorical, a story like Jesus parables intended to instruct.
---Rocky on 11/18/11


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If the flood was only LOCAL, then you are calling God a LIAR.
--kathr4453 11/17/11 a third post
The only lie is that statement. People can call the flood local and believe that the flood story is allegory, not that anyone, much less God, lied. Using statements intended to deceive and intimidate says more about the author than anything else.
---Rocky on 11/18/11


Peter 3:6 "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed..."
--Warwick 11/17/11
"of that time" could mean a specific time period, or it could be like some colloguial use today meaning "the world as they knew it", their world at that time, what was the world to Noah as he knew it, his world at that time, the world the Jews knew at that time, the area of civilization as it was known at that time. Having established that not all words were used literally, now the problems becomes knowing which were or were not.
---Rocky on 11/18/11


According to LeeJ/Trav, they know EXACTLY where heaven is. A stationary place directly above Mount Ararat, 17,000 feet high. Heaven then rotates with the earth, being stationary. BRILLIANT!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/11


The local flood idea isn't Biblical but held by those who accept long-ages/evolutionary views ---Warwick on 11/17/11

I don't believe in Evolution. Land was raised out of water initially. Fossils are no problem. There is no uniform sedimentary evidence for a later global flood. Fossils do not form on peaks.
Deut 32:7Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father,he will shew thee, thy elders, they will tell thee.

8When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Boundary's set katr, you operate/brawl outside of them. Old and New.
---Trav on 11/18/11


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Well, leej, what is the majority vote here?

today scientists have proved the flood was over the whole earth.

Although I don't need any scientific proof, I know scripture states it was the whole earth. EVERYTHING UNDER HEAVEN.Now if the earth stood still and didn't rotate, one could fool around with that too.

BUT from where GOD SITS, that is a different matter.



But again, the difference is between man's reasoning(( Worldly knowledge)) or FAITH, just simply believing what God stated is true.

Kinda like satan saying to Eve,,,"God REALLY didn't say that or mean THAT".

Once Satan has his hooks in you, then you begin to doubt this and that, a little here, a little there and WOOPS..heritic!
---kathr4453 on 11/17/11


What I find really silly about Trav/Leej's argument is that it wasn't necessary to cover the whole earth because humanity was only localized at that time...YET argue that certain animals from Australis couldn't possibly be on the ark.

If people weren't in Australia, neither were animals.

When God gives boundries He tells us what those boundries are. Eden had boundries. The land promised to Abraham had boundries...this river to that river etc.

NO SUCH boundries were state in the flood. THE EARTH is exactly that the EARTH.

God also destroyed the whole earth in the flood, not just people and animals.

That has a purpose. Do you know why?
---kathr4453 on 11/17/11


If the flood was only LOCAL, then you are calling God a LIAR. THEN He promised to never have LOCAL FLOODS again.

Hummm.

Just look up the history of local flooding and the thousands killed in these floods.

How many history buffs on line?

Reminds me of a professor who poo pooed Israel crossing the red sea. Said God really didn't part the sea, it was only 6" deep.

A student spoke up and said...THAT's an even greater miracle, since Pharoah's army and horses all drown in 6" of water.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/11


Lee, read 2 Peter 3:5,6 "....the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed" 2 Peter 3:5,6. "world" comes from the Greek 'kosmos' which means the whole world. It never means a locality no matter how large.

BTW Scripture says the flood waters came from rain and the breaking open of the "fountains of the great deep" that is the under the waters of the ocean. How did the waters rise upon the earth covering all the high mountains under all the heavens but only flood one region?
---Warwick on 11/17/11


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The flood could not have been universal, because it didn't cover everywhere in the universe.

At its greatest extent, it could only be global.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/11


Ge 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

It does not say 'all the earth'.

The purpose of the flood was to destroy an evil society but as the earth was at that time very sparsely populated, it would not have been of necessity to have a flood that covered the entire earth.

Reasonably, therefore, it is hard to conclude that the flood was anything but localized.
---lee1538 on 11/17/11


The Genesis Flood account is a mythical story.
---John.usa on 11/17/11


Was the flood local? The debate has not ended. Scripture please. ----blog by Markv 11-17-11

You like research?
Research: water pressure at 30,000 feet deep for months.
Reasearch, the known species 1.5 million+ today x 2 male and female over 3,million species that would need to be gathered from the "erets" Australia, Amazon,America's etc. Research the specialized food for each species. Keep sloths off the poison shrubs please.
Research/Context: the time of the flood and the Civilizations that march through the period.

Now research/ context scripture use of the Hebrew word "erets" usage 1,600+ times in scripture apply global in its place.
Scripture never said Global Flood. Doctrines of men do.
---Trav on 11/17/11


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I personally believe that the Flood was over the entire Earth. The argument that it was only over a specific place on the Earth makes some sense, since the entire Earth, as far as we know, was not inhabited yet by humanity. But, GENESIS 9:11b shows GOD saying "...neither shall there any more be a Flood TO DESTROY THE EARTH." Sounds like He was referring to "the whole Earth", not just a portion of it.
---Gordon on 11/17/11


Scripture, shows the flood wan't local.

"....the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed" 2 Peter 3:5,6.

Notice Peter first uses "the earth" (globe)then uses "the world" (Greek 'kosmos' world/world system)because the earth was initially created an empty globe. However "the world" later destroyed was the globe and much of the life upon it-The world, the world system.

The local flood believers reject what Scripture says preferring antiBiblical long-ages/evolutionary views believing the sedimentary rock and fossils were deposited over millions of years, not by Noah's flood. So they reason the flood was local.
---Warwick on 11/17/11


The local flood idea isn't Biblical but held by those who accept long-ages/evolutionary views that the sedimentary rock/fossil record (of death and disease) was deposited eons before man's creation.

But Genesis 1:31. says Gods finished creation was "very good." How can God say that if such a dreadful record already existed?

Read 1 Corinthians 15:21,22, Romans 5:12,14-death occurred only after sin!

This is the very point upon which the Gospel's truth hangs-that sin and death came into the world because of Adam's rebellion and its 'cure' is God's gift of Jesus. If this OT foundation is not real there is no reason to believe the gospel is real as Jesus says in John 3:12.
---Warwick on 11/17/11


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