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Tithe Or Pay Bills

A Christian who is under a mountain of debt - Should they tithe and forsake their bills or use monies to pay their creditors to pay the tithe instead? Please answer in light of Romans 13:8,10 - These two are specific laws given to New Covenant believers.

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 ---Adi on 11/20/11
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Jed, The well need not a physician, but the sick. Your heart is not right with God, so please look into the mirror before you foolishly blaspheme against Christ's Christians again.
---Eloy on 11/27/11


Rhonda //TRUTH is tithing was never abolished not one verse supports that lie
---
It is just far too easy to see that the tithe was designed as support for the Temple and the Levitical priesthood, a priesthood we no longer possess.

Money is power and usually churches that advocate the tithe are those that have power but really do not preach the gospel.

The Mormon church does very very well by extracting the tithe from their followers.

---lee1538 on 11/27/11


I see patients like Eloy all the time at my job at the psychiatric hospital. They usually have schizophrenia with delusions about God. My aunt has it. When she was not on her medication, she would do things like sign her Social Security check over to the church because God told her to do it. Eloy is saying that God is telling him things that are contradictory to God's Holy Word. anti-psychotic meds, prescribed by a psychiatrist would benefit him immensely.

In the meantime, it is probably a good idea to not antagonize Eloy anymore. He could also be getting other auditory hallucinations telling him to kill someone. I am not joking. I have had patients who are admitted with them.
---Trish on 11/27/11


Jed, Eloy's no more crazy than most of the rest of the folk around here.
---John.usa on 11/26/11


thus saith eloy, tithing is sin in "MY" church. LOl
---shira4368 on 11/26/11




Eloy, please do yourself a favor and get some professional help. Do it for yourself and for your family. They deserve better. Just start by talking to someone. But make sure you see a psychiatrist, not a phsychologist, because it is really apparent that you could benefit from some medication. Talk to your primary doctor, he should be able to refer to a mental health agency in your area, and may even be able to provide you with some psychotropic medications in the mean time.
---Jed on 11/26/11


"tithing is sin. Pay that what you owe to others. As far as your offering in my church: if you have little, give little: if you have much, give much, and if you have none then give none."

Eloy please use a scripture refrence and what version of the bible you used for your posting I have searched the Bible for your words and they do not exist.

please prove Jesus said this in scripture be considered a lair!

prove it or repent of it.
---Willow on 11/26/11


Thus says the Lord, "tithing is sin. Pay that what you owe to others. As far as your offering in my church: if you have little, give little: if you have much, give much, and if you have none then give none."
****

thus saith YOUR Lord whoever that god may be

per Holy Scripture the TRUE GOD expects tithes

however not everyone follows the TRUTH from Holy Scripture much preferring the deception served by their lying false ministers and their "thus saith their lords"

one cannot serve BOTH their religious denomination and the TRUE GOD of the Bible

TRUTH is tithing was never abolished not one verse supports that lie
---Rhonda on 11/26/11


\\Thus says the Lord, "tithing is sin\\

Youm actually think that God told youm to say that, Eloy?

God told me to tell youm that He told youm no such think, and youm has been listening to an impostor.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/26/11


Thus says the Lord, "tithing is sin. Pay that what you owe to others. As far as your offering in my church: if you have little, give little: if you have much, give much, and if you have none then give none."
---Eloy on 11/26/11




So much space wasted on this Blog by some jabbing each other and bickering back-and-forth, instead of sincerely trying to answer the main Question at hand.
---G.D.G. on 11/26/11


eloy, according to you, everyone except you "disses" the truth. You keep your truth and I will keep mine. anyone reading these post would think you and only you are the only one who is saved.
---shira4368 on 11/26/11


Eloy, youm do not actually think that youm know the truth, do youm?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/11


shira4368, I preach Christ Jesus always and at all times, which is the only true gospel: and you post falsehood, which reveals that you have no Christ yet abiding in you. If you would repent from your sin, and surrender up to Christ my Lord asking for his forgiveness, and for his new life, then you too would post the one true gospel rather than your dissings against this gospel.
---Eloy on 11/25/11


eloy, do you pastor this church here on cn. If so I am moving my membership. You are not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ so who's gospel are you preaching???????
---shira4368 on 11/25/11


Elder, you will find no place where I wrote that Jesus was 'just a man.' I said he was a human being like us, and the first epistle of John condemns anyone who says Jesus was not human. Jesus also said that whatever you do to your brother, you do to him. If you hate Eloy, you hate Jesus. If I hate anyone, I hate Jesus. If Eloy hates anyone, he hates Jesus. That's how it is.
---John.usa on 11/25/11


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I have found nowhere in the New Testament where Christians are obligated to tithe. They are no more obligated to tithe than they are to refrain from eating shrimp or rabbit, or having their disobedient children stoned to death.
---John.usa on 11/25/11


The person in debt should do BOTH. They should give Tithe from the Gross Income. And then set some more aside to pay the Debts off. To "owe no man nothing but to love them" does not mean that we are dismissed from having to pay off our debts. UNLESS, that is, the one owed the money forgives the debt. Which rarely happens. If we make a purchase for something on a credit card, we are promising the merchant, hospital or whomever that they can count on us to pay what we owe for the services rendered. GOD's Ministries should get the Tithe and Offerings and the Merchants should get theirs also. The Lord YAHUSHUA said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to GOD that which is GOD's. That also applies to other people or places.
---Gordon on 11/25/11


trish, God is not mocked: for what we sow is what we reap, what you give is what you get, and what goes around will come around. I minister the gospel here, and I suggest that you and elder focus only upon the subject of the blog being posted and reply to the bloggers question, and if your flesh wants to post false witness or derogatory words against me or others, then stop before you post anything and pray to Jesus, asking him for his guidance on what you should post, if anything. And if you do not know how to pray in the Spirit to Jesus, then please ask me, and I will gladly give to you some instructions on how to do this.
---Eloy on 11/25/11


Wivv, I don't believe that Darline was stating it was a law to tithe, only that by tithing those things happen. I also don't think it is a law to us believers because Jesus wanted us to love others as,
" modeled after His love (as I have loved you) and second, this love can only be produced through the New Covenant by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit (Jer. 31:29-34: Ezek. 36:24-26: Gal. 5:22). When we give with that love in mind, we can never be wrong whether you tithe or not. We know in our heart what the Church of Jesus needs.
What I see wrong is when a person makes a vow and later recants to making it. I believe that is what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. They vowed and later kept some of the money.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/11


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Trish, what you said was very true....now...eloy you are a different story. If you don't know Elder is saved, then you have no decernment. The first time I was around him, there was no doubt in my heart he is a man of God. Even the first words we spoke on cn, I knew. Eloy, you need to get saved then your attitude would change but before that, you won't ever change. I am sorry you think you are so perfect...I doubt if the lowly ant things that. As far as tithe's go...just think if you only made $50.00 per week, God requires only $5.00. What God likes to see if we give MORE...like giving from the heart. I don't have much money either...fixed income, but God has allowed me to fly and see friends like Bro. Elder and his sweet wife, Jareldeen....
---shira4368 on 11/25/11


cont...These two people are the most humble people I have ever met. That is what happens when they got saved. Instead of saying Bro. Elder isn't saved, go look in the mirror and what you see is what you get. You are the most ungodly person I've seen in a long time. Don't you get it, this is a christian site....for christians. Wish I lived beside of the Elders I could have an inspiration next door. Get the pride out of your heart eloy and let God help you. He may even save you. He won't save you as long as your heart is blocked by arrogance and pride.
---shira4368 on 11/25/11


Eloy, you have no clue what you are talking about. I have never seen Elder blaspheme. Yet, you have repeatedly done that very thing and more.
---Trish9863 on 11/25/11


Elder, the sinner blasphemes and bears false witness, because no truth is in you: but after the soul repents, then you also will will bear truth.
---Eloy on 11/24/11


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Wivv,I agree with you. I learned about tithing from my Grandparents,they did it when they only made $250.00 a month.They had a home paid for wore nice clothes,had a good car,always had a visiting preacher to sit at their bountiful table for Sunday dinner,and gave to those who had a need greater than themselves. Grandma was a childens Sunday school teacher and Granddad was one of the commited men in the church,they left a very deep impression on me as a child by their steadfast commitement to God. I like your sayings very much. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/24/11


Darlene 1: 'Not all money problems are a result of mismanagement. '

Absolutely true. All too often, we forget that. Some problems, yes, are, but we should be merciful, and not 'accuse' unless we have some evidence that it IS due to mismanagement

I've been thrown out of at least five jobs, including the nicest I ever had, for 'pre-existing medical problems' that I was born with. I was lucky to have enough money, but others would have been in a bad state
---Peter on 11/24/11


Eloy even if I was lost no one would want your brand of self-rightousness or salvation. There is no doubt the father of lies impowers you.
You even lied about leaving!
---Elder on 11/24/11


Darlene_1 No, we don't have to tithe to gain God's favor - nor is it a method of insuring all goes well. God doesn't need our tithe since He owns everything anyhow, but He does allow us to tithe as a favor to us. On the receipts the mission uses, I put the statement at the top of the receipt, "It's an investment with the greatest return" The mission is still using that remark, and had it printed on all their receipts. But, like you state, tithing is only one step to doing what God likes. It's also the additional services given IF they are within God's will at "home" or in some full-time Christian work. A statement I use all the time is, "Your mission field is where you hang your hat."
---wivv on 11/24/11


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Yes, what we mainly owe is to love . . . not to get our golf score down or to make sure we have digital for watching money-making actors or to get some career thing . . . etc. We first owe God and ourselves and others, that we love (Romans 13:8).

If the one we owe money can suffer greatly because we don't pay, then do our best to pay! Talk with the pastor, agree in prayer.

Someone in such debt "maybe" needs to learn basic obedience to the LORD, first, so we have His creative guiding to orchestrate us with His provision and managing of our circumstances > "they first gave themselves to the Lord" (in 2 Corinthians 8:5). Instead of decoying ourselves just with discussion! (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/24/11


markv, You are 100% wrong. You need to get saved from sin.
---Eloy on 11/24/11


elder, there is no prayer for you.
---Eloy on 11/24/11


Pay what is owed. That does not mean that one should not go and try to make payment arrangements with the debtees, so they have clear money to give. However, if money is owed to someone, pay it as soon as possible.

Proverbs, 3:28 Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come back,
And tomorrow I will give it," When you have it with you.
---Rod4Him on 11/24/11


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It sounds like John-usa and Eloy were cut outta the same dough by the same cookie cutter.
Whacked statements and complete misunderstanding about simple Biblical things are their signatures.
Eloy has done nothing but spread falsehoods since he has been on CN. Sometimes he will it on the truth but that must be by accident. Now John who thinks Jesus is just a man follows Eloy's music. They don't realize or care what they are doing to the unlearned and even ChristiaNet's reputation for truth.
---Elder on 11/23/11


Eloy, Happy Thanksgiving to you and to your family. You do not have to answer to me for what you say, but to God. The question presses because we are all "under sin" there is no one righteous, not even one" "the whole world" is held accountable to God"
( Romans 3:9,10,19 ).
---Mark_V. on 11/23/11


markv, dissers and mockers like you, they will come and they will go, but the word from lips will stand for ever.
---Eloy on 11/23/11


Eloy claims to be sinless. Scriptures repeatedly tell us that even though we are in Christ, we still need to seek His forgiveness from time to time. Romans 7, and 1 John 1:9 were written to believer, not unbelievers.

Eloy's claims to perfection are lies from the devil. If he can lie about this, it is impossible to trust anything else he claims about God, or God's Word.
---Trish9863 on 11/23/11


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john.usa...Jesus was more than a man. Please do not negate HIS divinity on this Christian site!!!!
---KarenD on 11/23/11


One may if possible tithe of ones time by supporting the church in other ways rather than financial. All too often there is a shortage of workers.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11

But why does Jesus talk more about money than anything else. Because Jesus knows that money is the number one competion for our heart. Where your heart is your treasure will be also not your time.
---Scott1 on 11/23/11


Not all money problems are a result of mismanagement. Often it happens because a person isn't paid a decent wage and therefore just doesn't make enough to pay all bills,not credit cards or careless debts,but the very basic needs of life. There are millions of working poor who do everything they can to make a living but lack the education,are too old,or other valid reasons they cannot make enough to pay their bills. Companies are also cutting back on the time they allow workers to earn and that presents a hardship. There is no simple explanation for such a problem. Whatever a person does for God is between them and God and that is the real place they need to seek for their answers.
---Darlene_1 on 11/23/11


Eloy, what you said is true, but you are included in it. You mock the Truth and then condemn others for questioning the false statements you make concerning the Word of God. There is very few brothers and sisters who you have not condemned already. You do have followers. All those guys who thought they were god also, had followers. If you were the light Jesus saw on the Cross as you once said, why didn't you save your wife? You say you have that power. You had that power when you said you were with Christ at the Great White Throne of Judgment, and pointed your figure at her, that very second you could have reached out and spoken for her, but instead you condemned her. And here you try to condemn everyone with the exception of your followers.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/11


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Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

This is a very clear command in scripture and often reflects on the mismanagement of those who earn money.

On the other hand, no one has ever find a command that Christians tithe their money to an institution, many of which have an abundance. The tithe is an OT law that was used to support the temple & the Levitical priesthood.

One may if possible tithe of ones time by supporting the church in other ways rather than financial. All too often there is a shortage of workers.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


jed, you make me laugh at your foolishness.
---Eloy on 11/22/11


John, Pay no mind to the dissers, for Christ tells us that in the latter days will be mockers. I am accustomed to the foolish mockery from the nonspiritually discerned. The ignorant whom blaspheme do so because that is what is in their heart, for out of the heart their mouth speaks. When sin is in their heart, then sin comes forth from their lips: but when Christ is in their heart, then Christ comes forth from their lips. And by their fruits we all will know them.
---Eloy on 11/22/11


Karen, Jesus and Eloy are both human beings and deserve our love as such. I never claimed to be smart! :) And as you said, people around here don't know who's saved. But I know you are saved, and so is Eloy.
---John.usa on 11/22/11


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Give some: "Hear the word of Yhwh, Give, and it will be given to you, good measure pressed down, and shaken together and running over, will men give into your pocket. For with the same measure that you all deal withal, it will be measured to you again. The well-offs give a lot: Command the rich that they be ready to give, willing to share: laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come. The poor give none: For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice: and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. And a bruised reed he will not break." Lk.6:38+ I Tm.18,19+ Ho.6:6+ Mt.12:20.
---Eloy on 11/22/11


Sometimes it is just entertainment to read these blogs. None of you know anything about the people who post on here, but somehow know whether they are saved and just how good a Christian they are. John.usa..To compare Jesus and any human being on this earth is really stupid and not at all Biblical.
---KarenD on 11/22/11


Eloy I thought I'd tell you to get Saved first because I knew what you would say when confronted with truth.
You spread false doctrine just like your spiritual leader. Very few ever reveal your lies. When they do you say they need to be Saved.
There is nothing God like in your rants and condemnations.
Sad, you could be used of the Lord but you let His enemy guide you.
Trish, thank you for your support and comments. You are special. I have always thought so. Now Eloy will attack you too. Just brush him off like the fly that he is.
---Elder on 11/22/11


Jed: You insult the president by saying Eloy is his child.

Why must you get political? Eloy's sin has nothing to do with the president of the United States. If you must discuss the president, start a blog about him, but don't insult the president by comparing him to Eloy. The president has never claimed to be sinless the way Eloy has.
---Trish on 11/22/11


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Y'all are treating Eloy the same way the Pharisees treated Jesus. They all said he was wrong and of the devil.
---John.usa on 11/22/11


Eloy is a child of the devil. And his father is Barack Obama, the devil himself.
---Jed on 11/22/11


Eloy, I thought there was hope for you but really, here you make yourself to be god. Again. Do you really believe you are god? Is it really true that you believe that? How do conclude that? Give us some advice how you changed from a sinner to god? Do you suggest that there is a way to beome God? I am waiting for a response. I never thought anyone could possibly ever believe that, and heard some preachers did in history, and many followed them. But here we hear it from you. Please explain so we can know.
---Mark_V. on 11/22/11


Eloy: Your "thus sayeth the Lord" is a bunch of garbage straight from Hell. Elder speaks the Truth, and is a born again believer in Christ. It is you that is the spawn of Satan himself.
---Trish on 11/22/11


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elder, I give what I can, and it is my pleasure. And I preach only the words which my Lord tells to preach. But you blaspheme Christians from Christ, because there is no Christ in you. Get saved, then you too will become Christianed and will be able to likewise share the gospel, rather than post your sin.
---Eloy on 11/22/11


If you give to the Lord there will be enough to pay your bills.
You must be wise in your spending and not buy all of the toys and everything in sight.
People like Eloy that give quotes like they are Biblical give very little, I think.
Eloy give us a reference that is not Eloy 1:1 for your statement. (Then go get saved then you will know truth.)
---Elder on 11/22/11


Wivv,thats a lovely testimony which got me to thinking. I have always felt if we pay tithes God would see we have our needs but when I read what you wrote it dawned on me,the tithes weren't the reason you had plenty but the service you were doing for God was. Everything God does is to promote the Kingdom of God and the Gospel of Christ and you were doing exactly what he wants us all to do promote the Kingdom. It is putting God and his mission first that gives God pleasure. I do believe you take care of the things of God and he will take care of you. As for the gross,even God didn't ask for that in the Old Testament,it was only the increase. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/22/11


Or do you tithers have no scripture?
---Gary on 11/21/11

You cannot love both God and money.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's give to God what is God's.
Cain and Abel gave first fruits. Abraham gave 10% before the Law. Malachi 3. The church in acts sold ALL of their stuff to give to church that is a tithe and 90% offerings. Jesus gave the temple tax. Under the Law the 10% was a tithe but there was also 3% for poor, offerings for special holidays. In the OT you cannot give a tithe you can only return a tithe but you can give an offering which is the 3% and holiday stuff. Conclusion the tithe is a great starting point at 10% of income to the local church. You cannot love and not give. "For God so loved that he gave..."
---Scott1 on 11/22/11


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Thus says the Lord, "tithing is sin. Pay that what you owe to others. As far as your offering in my church: if you have little, give little: if you have much, give much, and if you have none then give none."
---Eloy on 11/22/11


John: "He also said they tithed mint and cumin but ignored more important things. So our personal obligations come first."

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE.

Jesus commanded that we not leave the other (tithing) undone. Strange how a command to tithe can be used to justify not tithing.
---jerry6593 on 11/22/11


At this point of rather to tithe or pay bills, I can only give you my personal testimony. Even before we got married, (48 wonderful years ago), we both tithed on our GROSS income. We have always tithed on our gross - even though we lived on nothing but contribuons for 33 years as missionary's. (Some Christian folks thought we were "nuts" and shouldn't tithe anything since they figured our Christian service as missionaries was tithe enough.) Even now that we have retired, we sill tithe our SS and any other income we get on the GROSS and we have never missed a meal yet in 48 years. After taking out your tithe, go to a financial advisor and get help on how to best satisfy your creditors. There are free service avalable.
---wivv on 11/21/11


At one point Jesus cussed out people who didn't support their parents because they said the money was to be used for religious purposes. He also said they tithed mint and cumin but ignored more important things. So our personal obligations come first.
---John.usa on 11/21/11


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Can anyone here give any scripture that says we should pay a tithe?

Don't quote from Malachi 3 as in those verses God said they were not following his ORDINANCES. Quote the actual scripture where God tells WHAT to tithe, and WHERE to take the tithe.

Or do you tithers have no scripture?
---Gary on 11/21/11


....Give to God what is His - WE are make in the image of God, so He wants us to give ourselves to Him
****

Interesting theory however there is nothing within Holy Scripture that makes this statement

however it is clear YOUR THEORY ABOUT Holy Scripture HAS a different meaning

the subject was ABOUT money

YOUR theory changed the subject to be about people - in other words YOUR theory CHANGED the subject

overall problem with false ministers twisting subjects creating new ideas to dismiss what is written rather than READING Holy Scripture as it is written ...and nothing is written abolishing tithing

one does not "tithe" themselves they tithe their earnings lest one forget everything IS GODS
---Rhonda on 11/21/11


When arguing with the Pharisees about money why didn't Jesus just say the old law of tithing is wrong. Why did he say "give to God what is God's (tithe) and give to Caesar what is Caesar's (debts)"
---Scott1 on 11/21/11

When Jesus spoke to the Scribes and Pharisees, they were under the Old Testament Law. Tithing was not wrong under the law.

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's (pay Caesar's taxes with the coin with Caesar's image on it). Give to God what is His - WE are make in the image of God, so He wants us to give ourselves to Him.

Very simple.
---Gary on 11/21/11


If you are even asking the question of whether you should pay your tithe or not, then it is no surprise you have to even face that choice. Pay your tithe.
---Jed on 11/21/11


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When arguing with the Pharisees about money why didn't Jesus just say the old law of tithing is wrong. Why did he say "give to God what is God's (tithe) and give to Caesar what is Caesar's (debts)"
---Scott1 on 11/21/11


The Bible teaches we are to have wisdom,you have to pay bills to live. If you didn't you also would be contrary to the Laws of the Land and the Bible tells us to obey the Laws. If you obey the Laws,pay your bills,then you would have the ability to make your situation better where you can pay tithes. Besides God loves a cheerful giver you can't be cheerful if you take money for tithes which you need to use to pay bills. Pray and ask God for peace about this. Happy is the man who condemns not in that thing which he allows. I would add that thing which he has to do.
---Darlene_1 on 11/21/11


malachi has been exploited for pastors to make personal financial gains.

pay your debts.
of course pat robertson will say that 'give your 10% to the 0700 club & you will be rich.
---mike on 11/21/11


according to the scripture you gave we need to pay off our debts. by the way tithing was for the OT between Israel and God only.Now when we give we give cheerfully and not at the ten percent either.
---Candice on 11/21/11


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Adi, before Christ ascended to the Father, His instructions to the disciples were "to preach the Gospel" and to Peter, Jesus reminded him, "Feed my lambs. Feed my sheep. Feed my sheep." Jesus didn't say, "Fleece my lamb and sheep."

As John.usa rightly say, "God owns the whole world. He doesn't need your money. Pay your debts."
---christan on 11/21/11


We've already been asked this question recently.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/21/11


I'd say do whatever lies on your heart.

There have been times Ive been forced to decide do I tithe or help someone I know is in need with some money. The words " Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" come to my mind.

I know thats the Lord telling me using tithe money to help someone is just as good as giving it to your church.
---JackB on 11/21/11


Jesus never collected the tithe, Paul never collected tithes, the early church never collected tithe, Abraham gave all the spoils,prophets Malachi refers to the priets who were subjected to the law of Moses..so pls pay ur bills..but have the spirit of giving.
---Joseph on 11/21/11


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Adi: Were these debts incurred by yourself or government taxes or rents? Even with the volume of debts, if you have a good opportunity to use money to do something for someone you really care for, will you not do it? Let me share with you what the HS recently told me, if you do things in God's way, HE will help you carry your problems and vice versa.
---Adetunji on 11/21/11


Anyone who returns a faithful tithe will tell you that God will miraculously give you funds to pay your bills, if you put your trust in Him.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
---jerry6593 on 11/21/11


A debt is something you owe to someone. The only thing you owe God is love. Romans 13, 8,10. How did you get into debt? It was not by loving God with your money. True God does not need your money because God still owns all of your money. He just lets you take care of it. This is called stewardship. How about verse 9 "You shall not steal". With Malachi 3:9 "You are robbing me (God)". Tithing is the greatest weapon against the god of money. A friend in a similiar situation has been tithing for two years now just got a 28% raise in a department that is being cut by 19%. Trust in God not your money. Good luck getting out of debt but love God first and listen to Dave Ramsey. "For God so loved that he GAVE ..."
---Scott1 on 11/21/11


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