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Local Flood About Faith

Is believing in a local flood wrong because it somehow changes your faith? What is wrong in believing local or universal flood? How does it effect your faith or how does it change the rest of Scripture in your opinion?

Moderator - Check the fossil records worldwide - it was global not local. To me it would effect common sense.

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 ---Mark_V. on 11/21/11
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Shira, it does really matter that it was the whole globe, because God said so. The Flood was real...just as real as our salvation.

Jesus died not only for our sin but the sin of the WHOLE WORLD. In that perspective as well, yes, believing EVERY WORD of God is important.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/11


kathr4453:

You wrote: ALL died. Even every creeping thing upon the earth. THEN God made the Garden of Eden.

I am not disputing that most animal life died in the Flood. However, you said God made the Garden of Eden AFTER the flood, which contradicts the Genesis account.

Dolphin makes many assumptions, like average families had 10 children. Even if all had 5-10 children, one cannot assume all survived to have similarly large families. His own calculations for post-Flood populations show very slow increases until modern technology lowered infant mortality. Families used to be large before this, as he claims they were in Genesis. So why no billions until recently, if there were billions in Genesis?
---StrongAxe on 11/26/11


Strongax, Read Genesis 1. God brought forth plant life and animal life upon the EARTH and also brought life out of the sea( after gathering the sea to one place) before creating Adam/ Eve.

So first, before man OR the Garden, God created sea turtles, Penguins and many more specieswho survive on both sea and land. They also lay their eggs on earth. So there was life of sorts all the way to the outter most parts of the earth at that time. And scripture tells us ALL life, not just humans died in the flood.

I can see if someone believed life began in the Garden, including all plant life, animal life then the radius of life may not have expanded that far. But that's not so.

So Yes ALL the known earth was flooded.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/11


I guess for some it would be hard to believe God placed Educated Christians in the Body of Christ. I mean educated in particular fields who KNOW what their talking about.

Well We do: Stanford University by Lambert Dolphin .

So look up "World Population since Creation" by Lambert Dolphin.

Several names are listed along with several resources. They even said if evolution were the case, over millions of years there would be no room for man.

SO these guys absolutely believe in Creation AND ARE SMART and qualified to answer this question of population at the time of Noah, USING FORMULAS based on longevity etc.

Please DO read...it's a great. Since when is 1+1=2 a science that can be disputed?
---kathr4453 on 11/26/11


The earth at that time had no rain, no ice or snow, or weather as we know it today. and this didn't happen because of some "local flood" in Asia. This was an absolute catastrophic thing that happened to this planet. And that earth as they knew it PERISHED. 2 Peter 3 also confirms it so!

Just 40 feet of water raises the earth's temperature 850 degees. Just that alone most likely brouhgt about earthquakes, volcano eruptions at the bottom of the ocean, and who knows what else that has reformed this planet, or that which brought forth even more land mass during the flood. God opened teh ocean floor just as He opened heavens window bringing forth water from here and there.
If God said He did it...HE DID IT!

---kathr4453 on 11/26/11




The wrong impressions are all over this blog. It doesn't really matter if it was all over the world or not. The ark is a picture of salvation. God told Noah and his family to get "in" the ark. God shut the door. Noah and his family was protected from all the flood produced. Now isn't that just like our Savior. He pitched the outside for protection and we are secure in Him. Noah preached for years but people laughed at him. Isn't that just like today? Noah didn't care who laughed, he kept pluging away. He and his family was saved. That is a wonderful story of how I was saved.
---shira4368 on 11/26/11


\\And we are not to be tossed and turned by every wind of doctrine by the slight of MEN,\\

Let's see. You claim that calculations made my unamed persons with unprovided evidence and data say there were 6-7 billion people on earth at the time of the flood.

THEN you expect us you believe that you are not influcened by the doctrines of men.

Yeah, sure, kathr.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/11


\\And we are not to be tossed and turned by every wind of doctrine by the slight of MEN,\\

Indeed, kathr?

And just what are your claims that there were 6-7 billion people on earth at the time of the Flood, or people didn't die of diseases BUT the doctrines of men?

They certainly are nowhere in the Bible.

Yeah, sure, kathr. You are not blown about by the doctrines of men.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/11


Mark, as I see it, it is all about faith. Some have strong steadfast faith in God and His word while others have faith in man's opinions. Others have faith both in God's word and in human 'scientific' belief. I notice this last group always defaults to their beliefs in so called 'science' if Scripture and 'science' conflict. This is a double minded faith and not which God commends in Hebrews chapter 11.

I call it 'so called science' because it is not science but philosophies served up as science. It cannot be proved by testing therefore it isn't scientific fact.

That God created in 6-days is not opinion but what God's word says. The double-minded do not get their views from Scripture.
---Warwick on 11/26/11


kathr4453:

Genesis 41:57 says "all the countries" in KJV and "all the world" in NIV. The original Hebrew says "kol ha'aretz", which means "all the earth" or" all the land", which can be either global or local.

You wrote: Calculations also support approx 3-7 BILLION people on earth at the time of the flood.

Please tell us just what calculations, or how to find them?

You also wrote: ALL died. Even every creeping thing upon the earth.
THEN God made the Garden of Eden. All of LIFE did not first flow out from the Garden


Please explain where you got this idea? In particular, can you show of a single death that happened before the Garden was created?
---StrongAxe on 11/25/11




Barnes Notes: There were ten generations from Adam to Noah inclusive. We cannot tell what the rate of increase was. But, supposing each couple to have ten children, and therefore the common ratio to be five, the whole number of births would be about five million, and the population in the time of Noah less than four million. It is probable that they did not scatter further than the necessities and conveniences of life.

Your estimate of 3 billion is far too high unless each family had 30 kids.
---lee1538 on 11/25/11


\\Calculations also support approx 3-7 BILLION people on earth at the time of the flood.\\

WHOSE calculations, and made on what basis?

\\ Remember peple lived to nearly 900 years,\\

SOME people may have, but it doesn't follow that this was the general rule. Noah apparently did not.

\\ there was no disease to kill off anyone.\\

And where did you get THAT idea? Are you saying there was no death before the Flood?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/11


Albert Barnes (1798-1870) pastored the First Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia during the middle of the nineteenth century. He was deeply involved in the social and moral issues of his day slavery, drinking, dancing, and so on. Barnes's commentaries were more notable because they comment on every verse of the Bible, not because of his biblical scholarship.


He wasn't a Bible Scholar. Probably knew NOTHING about math or statistics, or calculations of math scholors calculating the earth had a conservative estimate of 3 to -13 BILLION people at the time of the flood.

4-5 million at the time of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Barns had no credentials to even make such rediculous statements as LeeJ wants to believe.
---kathr4453 on 11/25/11


Calculations also support approx 3-7 BILLION people on earth at the time of the flood. Remember peple lived to nearly 900 years, there was no disease to kill off anyone.

From the time of Noah to Joseph is how many years.

And from the time of Noah to today, with a shorter life span, disease and disasters, what is the population of the world.

AND I bet if Barnes had seen March of the Penguines he amy have said with Job...I am a man of unclean lips, and threw himself in the dirt, realizing he spoke things he knew NOTHING about!!
---kathr4453 on 11/25/11


Genesis 41:57 say All the Countries, not earth. Look in your strongs and see for yourselves. These countries (a different Hebrew word than Earth, were identified in Genesis 47, all of Egypt and Canaan.

>Man lived 1600 years on earth living to 700-900 years old each tells me they had plenty of time to travel to the ends of the known earth, then ONE CONTINENT.

And in Genesis 1 God brought forth life out of the sea, most likey turtles who would infact be at the very edges of dry land. Also Penguins live in sea and water. Do they also have life in their nostrils. needing air?

ALL died. Even every creeping thing upon the earth.

THEN God made the Garden of Eden. All of LIFE did not first flow out from the Garden.
---kathr4453 on 11/25/11


Genesis 41:57 Moreover, ALL THE EARTH came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth.

Did the Chinese, the Russians the Eskimos of North America, the Incas of South America go to Joseph? Well the Bible says that they did!!!!! -lee1538 11/24/11

Yes, they probably did. What, do you really think people did not travel by ship and other means in the bible days? The world is awefully small. Also, you do not know that all of the land of the earth was occupied at that time. Archeologists merely guess when they estimate the time frame of the ancient cultures.
---Jed on 11/25/11


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---Cluny on 11/25/11

Cluny, great question. We are to GROW in the Grace and Knowledge of JESUS CHRIST. That's the difference. Our Human understanding( willful Ignorance) could never understand the things of the Spirit.

And we are not to be tossed and turned by every wind of doctrine by the slight of MEN, and cunning craftiness by which THEY lie in wait to deceive....through philosophy and vain deceit, after the rudiments of the world, and traditions of men, and not after Christ.

ALL those scriptures in the NT concerning Noah/ Flood ARE about Christ.

Just how it pertains to YOU is up to you to seek and find.
---kathr4453 on 11/25/11


James //I do not know Hebrew, but we are sure the translation 'all the earth' is an accurate translation there? (i.e. in Genesis 41:57)

"All the earth" merely reflects what can be seen by the observer. (see Barnes notes)

The reason Christians are liken to dumb sheep is that God wants all the credit for anything worthwhile. Sheep are trained to follow, not to lead.

The Lord has chosen not many wise, powerful, or of noble birth but calls forth the weak and often the foolish for His purpose and glory. (1 Cor. 1:26-29). So that if any would boast, let him boast in the Lord (1:31)

Most Christians do not read books, nor do they ever spend any time studying doctrine in spite of the command to do so.(2 Tim. 2:15)
---lee1538 on 11/25/11


\\ This is why God gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us. We insult God and seer our own conscience when we continually go to man for the answers. \\

How do you know the Holy Spirit is really the one teaching YOU, kathr, and you're not simply leaning to your own understanding?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/11


Lee, your correct on how to interpret, and Kathr is wrong. "All the earth" doesn't always mean all the earth." It depends on what was the perspective of the author. That's why I posted the question. Writers sometimes wrote as if looking through the eyes of God (spokemen for God), in particularly moral matters, but in narrative sections they frequently describe things the way they appear from a human perspective (as a reporter speaking from his view) not as a spokemen for God. We can find thousands of passages like that.
"Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker?" ( Job 4:17).
This two passages are from the writers perspective concerning what he knows about God.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/11


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Many CLAIM they were all TAUGHT of the Father FIRST before coming to Christ. YET will argue over and over with those who ARE taught of the Father, as they expose themselves they really are taught of MAN.

Everything in scripture is in fact a picture of JESUS CHRIST. And those who are taught of the Father KNOW and listen to those Spiritual THINGS. The Natural man cannot understand the "THINGS" of the Spirit.

Noah is mentioned how many times in the NT? And EXACTLY what is the SPITIT trying to tell you in references to those scriptures THINGS about Jesus Christ?

1. That the final Jugement on earth willl be regional?
2. That our identiification in death and resurrection life with Jesus Christ is limited/regional?
---kathr4453 on 11/25/11


Amazing James. I just looked up and posted the same thing. Awesome.

I believe when we have what seems to be a conflict of understanding scripture, 100% of the time it is with man's understanding. This is why God gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us. We insult God and seer our own conscience when we continually go to man for the answers.

James said If you need wisdom ASK GOD who gives to all men LIBERALLY. BUT ASK IN FAITH.

What then does that mean ASK IN FAITH?

A double minded man askes God then asks man and sides with man. There comes a point after doing so God will not give you any wisdom of His truths, because you spit in His face.

ASK IN FAITH. Without FAITH it is impossible to please God.
---kathr4453 on 11/24/11


Genesis 41:57 Moreover, ALL THE EARTH ....Lee1538//

Actually the original hebrew says and all the "COUNTRIES" came to Egypt.... And in Genesis 47 it clarifies that Egypt and Canaan were the ones who purchased the grain.

Don't settle for ONE verse to prove any point.

So Lee, under your teaching ALL doesn't really mean ALL.

So ALL really did not fall short of the Glory of God... or in Adam ALL die.

Is this REALLY what you're trying to prove here?


Many times scripture isn't clarified until we READ more scripture to explain.
Barnes says this Barnes says that. THAT is a person who cannot Think on his own!Or has the Holy Spirit to teach and guide.
---kathr4453 on 11/24/11


Lee: 'Genesis 41:57 Moreover, ALL THE EARTH came to Egypt to Joseph '

I do not know Hebrew, but are we sure the translation 'all the earth' is an accurate translation there?

I have found some translations (from the Greek NT) that are excellent, but not exactly literal BECAUSE THERE IS NO LITERAL TRANSLATION
---James on 11/24/11


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//There are Bible claimers who show more emotion and certainty for what science and doctors say, than for what the Bible says.

Genesis 41:57 Moreover, ALL THE EARTH came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth.

Did the Chinese, the Russians the Eskimos of North America, the Incas of South America go to Joseph? Well the Bible says that they did!!!!!

"All the earth" does not mean the entire world.

In the case Noah's regional flood, 'all the earth' simply means as far as a spectator could see. Barnes Notes supports this view.

The literalists are asking people to park their brains and simply accept something that may not at all be reasonable.
---lee1538 on 11/24/11


The end result is what counts when you discuss the flood. The end result,God destroyed all living creatures and humans except those who went on the Ark. It really makes little difference if it was local or global. My personal opinion was it was global, but the message is more important the the method and that is, He was not "a happy camper" with His creation.

Genesis 7:19ff (NASB77)
19 And the water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.
21 And all flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind,....
23 Thus He blotted out every living thing ....
---wivv on 11/24/11


There are Bible claimers who show more emotion and certainty for what science and doctors say, than for what the Bible says.

"The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth." (in Genesis 7:17) "and the mountains were covered." (in Genesis 7:19) So, what "faith" has someone thinking the flood was local? "Faith" that does not know or does not believe what the Bible clearly says.

And if it was going to be local, it "might" take less time and effort to travel to a safe place, than to build an ark. Of course, the world was wicked, the reason for the flood. Was there somewhere where there was not need for the flood? "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23).
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/24/11


Birds are able to fly thousands of miles from any given location. ALL birds died too.

ALL creapy things on the earth died too.

And did you partially Die and partially rise again with Jesus Christ?

The Baptism of water that covered the whole earth represents our death and resurrection life in Christ.

The New Earth after the flood waters went down is a type and shadow of the New Earth and New Creature in Christ.

SO yes, It absoutely affects our faith in what we believe.

The Flood is mentioned SEVERAL times in the NT for a reason!

8 also represent New Beginnings, just as circumcision on the 8th day have a deeper meaning. The 8th day is the day Jesus rose from the dead.
---kathr4453 on 11/24/11


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Frankly, the literalists hates and is intolerant of views that are more supportable than what they desire to believe. One being that man is the clay and God the Potter, that He may do whatever He choses with His creation including saving only the Elect of God. Romans 9.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


Now just look at this comment.

If God said He COVERED the Clay and the whole CLAY was covered with water, I absolutely believe God CAN and DID exactly what He said he did.

1st Peter 3:20-22 ((for the spiritually mature who eats meat.))

False teath can't chew on that one!
---kathr4453 on 11/24/11


Craig, what really bothers me is what most of you do, waste God's time knocking down others, instead of debating godly matters. The people who disagree on one point of Truth, get angry, and follow another around on all the blogs to disagree with him no matter the topic. Lee, has great answers concerning the law and election. Jerry and Warwich, have opposed him on most blogs. Kathr oppose him because he and I believe in Election, and she has an opportunity to raise hell here. You answer for her, because you have nothing godly to give, so use your time to just throw stabs. Kathr is the instigator. You could be her for all I know. People like her and you who look for opportunities to stab others instead of helping others. It's in your nature.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/11


Milton Terry, in "Biblical Hermeneutics". states,

"The narrative of the flood is probably the account of an eyewitness. Its vivdness of description and minuteness of details contain the strongest evidence that it is such (local) It was probably a tradition handed down from Shem to his descendants until it was finally incorporated in the Books of Moses. The terms "all flesh" and "all high hills" and "all the heavens" denote simply all those known to the observer."
From his interpretation the passages were understood phenomenologically. From the observers view. He didn't lack faith, but interpreted the passages differently.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/11


kathr //Can you PROVE life only existed within a 500 mile radius, since the Garden of Eden was larger that that and Cain wandered and lived East of Eden...and his discendents most likely wandered to the very ends of the earth.

Who need scriptural proof when simple common sense is totally sufficient?

Barnes Notes tells us since the population was very small at the time of the regional flood (~4 million), people stayed close to their food sources and did not wander much beyond a 500 mile radius.

Again, the theory of one land mass - Pangaea would never be accepted by the Young Earth believers since the continents came into being some 130 million years ago but man has only been on earth for some 4,000-6,000 years.
---lee1538 on 11/24/11


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The creation story in Genesis supports the "Panangea" theory.

"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto ONE PLACE, and let the dry land appear: and it was so." -Gen. 1:9

The water today is not gathered into one place, but rather it is dispersed into several difference oceans and seas which are divided by continents.
---Jed on 11/23/11


The major problem as I see it with the belief that there was at one time only one landmass (Pangaea)which then separated into the various continents, would put Adam and Eve living about 135 million years ago during the Jurassic period - the view held by scientific community.Leej//

AGAIN THIS IS SECULAR SCIENCE. however SCRIPTURE TELLS US WHEN the earth was divided, That is Genesis 10:25.

So I believe scripture says the continents were not separate until after Men began to populate the world again.

Even Bible believers believe in the Panagea. We also know there was no ICE or rain on earth until the time of the flood and after.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


You must be gettin to him Kathr. Hes callin you evil now haha
---CraigA on 11/23/11


Kathr, It matters not what blog you answer, your intend is evil always. many here disagree on many passages but they believe the Bible by faith but their interpretations are different. You have no clue what faith really means in Scripture. You confessed to us, you came to Christ without faith. Expecting Christ to give you faith, for your works. Who are you to give advice to anyone? A person who doesn't even believe in the Eternal Son of God. So you have no place to condemn anyone, when you condemn yourself by your own words.
I'm not afraid of you, for I am not afraid of evil. I don't go looking for it, but when it presents itself, I pray God to keeps me ready. I do pray for you, like I did last year, for God to change your heart.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/11


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First, we believe the Bible by faith, because we know it is the Word of God. How one interprets the passages has nothing whatsoever to do with faith. ---Mark_V. on 11/23/11


MarkV, and that is your FALSE interpretation of FAITH. It's also how you comes to believe the TULIP which has nothing to do with Faith either. It's ALL man's opinion.

LeeJ, Can you PROVE life only existed within a 500 mile radius, since the Garden of Eden was larger that that and Cain wandered and lived East of Eden...and his discendents most likely wandered to the very ends of the earth.

Where is your SCRIPTURE MarkV so admires?
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


The major problem as I see it with the belief that there was at one time only one landmass (Pangaea)which then separated into the various continents, would put Adam and Eve living about 135 million years ago during the Jurassic period - the view held by scientific community.

Of course, that view would certainly not satisfy the literalists who want desperately to believe from the Bible that life on earth started just 4,000 years ago.

Some would have us believe that the Bible Shows the Age of the Earth is 6,111 Years.

There does not seem to be any solid consensus on this issue.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


//God didn't dry off 7 or more places called earth. ONE PLACE... This is the supercontinent before the earthqquake that divided the supercontinent DIVIDING the earth. Genesis 10:25
---kathr4453

Good viewpoint as that may indeed been the case. Maybe the continents were not yet in place.

However, it is an assumption that God had to flood all the original landmass just to destroy 4 million people who must likely lived only within a 500 mile radius.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


John usa, I am sorry, the scriptures that I posted were on a blog with a similar subject titled: "What the flood local", which was closed on 11/20/11. Here are the scriptures I posted: "And note, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven: every thing that in the earth shall die. And the waters were on the face of the whole earth. And the world was overflowed with water and perished." Gn.6:17+ 7:4,12,17-24+ 8:3,9+ II Peter 3:6.
---Eloy on 11/20/11
---Eloy on 11/23/11


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//2) The OT is from a different God, and anything not repeated in the NT is no longer in force.

While we all believe the God of the OT is the same as the NT, what is different is the covenants He made with Israel.Lee1538//

Yes, including teh one He made with the Israel of God.

Ezekiel 36, Romans 11, Isaiah 14, Hebrews 8, Zechariah 12-14 ann so many more you still don't believe in.

Is this again another matter of faith not essential to salvation?
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


Kathr, I will answer your question. You said,
"MarkV, what is the real motive behind your question?"
First, we believe the Bible by faith, because we know it is the Word of God. How one interprets the passages has nothing whatsoever to do with faith. you can have all the faith and still interpret the passages wrong. Like you do so many times. What concerned me was that he even mentioned the lack of faith with Leej. Second that he supported your unrighteous judgments. That to me is worse because he debates awesome and knows better for the glory of God not to even bring in faith. You Kathr are evil, you bring disension and stife between others. You cause others to sin.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/11


\\1) Church fathers are more credible than Bible authors.\\

Nobody has ever said this, jerry. Not even I.

But we DO believe that the Fathers are more credible than ANYTHING the SDA has to offer, including and especially Ellen G. White, whose name adds up to 666, if you use the Roman numerals in her name.

Glory to JEsus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/23/11


Jerry//I have noted several essential doctrines these same folks do adhere to:

1) Church fathers are more credible than Bible authors.
----
Neither really support unique Adventist doctrines.

//2) The OT is from a different God, and anything not repeated in the NT is no longer in force.

While we all believe the God of the OT is the same as the NT, what is different is the covenants He made with Israel.

//3) The consensus of liberal university professors is the absolute truth - not the Bible.

Adventists and other legalists have problems bec their minority view has the least support from either scripture or early church history.

Frankly they despise the teachers the Lord has given His church.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


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kathr4453 //Here is a perfect verse describing faith. Not faith in salvation, but faith in God's word.

The literalist does not ask us to have faith in God's inerrant word but in their interpretation.

If they were to view the commentaries written by the teachers the Lord gave to His church, they would see that most do not hold the view the flood was over the entire globe but regional in nature (see my post from Barnes Notes and read the other commentaries).

Frankly, the literalists hates and is intolerant of views that are more supportable than what they desire to believe. One being that man is the clay and God the Potter, that He may do whatever He choses with His creation including saving only the Elect of God. Romans 9.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


Here is a perfect verse describing faith. Not faith in salvation, but faith in God's word.

WHERE do we find in scripture the worlds were framed by the WORD of God. Is it not Genesis 1 among other scrptures. Job 38 another.

WE believe it...FAITH, because God said it.

He also said the WHOLE EARTH.

Again God said it. I believe it.

Is believing God then a GIFT given to only a select few.

It's beginning to SHOw just who those select few are and are not.

Your turn to CURSE me MarkV
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


Concerning the distant parts of Europe, the continents of Africa, America, or Australia, we can say nothing. "All the high hills were covered." Not a hill was above water within the horizon of the spectator or of man.leej////


Leej, again Genesis 1 tell us there was no America, Canada or any other continents at that time. The Water was in ONE PLACE and the dry earth in the other.

God didn't dry off 7 or more places called earth. ONE PLACE... This is the supercontinent before the earthqquake that divided the supercontinent DIVIDING the earth. Genesis 10:25
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


Warwick//But Lee by your own admission you do not have faith in all of God's word. Only those parts which do not contradict your long-ages/evolutionary views.

What I clearly do not have faith in is your erroneous interpretation of Scripture as all too often what you believe is based on assumptions. You insert into the text of scripture things that are not there and then brand others who know better as being evolutionists.

Your problem is really that you are intolerant of those who have a more educated viewpoint than that of yoru own. No wonder you and your Adventists bedfellows have problems getting along with others.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


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But Lee by your own admission you do not have faith in all of God's word. Only those parts which do not contradict your long-ages/evolutionary views.

Who told you that limited faith, is faith?
---Warwick on 11/23/11


Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.

(Barnes Notes) The land is to be understood of the portion of the earths surface known to man. This, with an unknown margin beyond it, was covered with the waters. But this is all that Scripture warrants us to assert. Concerning the distant parts of Europe, the continents of Africa, America, or Australia, we can say nothing. "All the high hills were covered." Not a hill was above water within the horizon of the spectator or of man.

And Barnes elaborates much more in detail concerning the water that was above the high hills.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


Warwick: "BiblioSceptics say this or that "is NOT an essential doctrine..."

Yes indeed! When they come across a scripture which cuts across their worldly doctrines, they are quick to dismiss it with "It's not a salvational issue." As if their salvation is of more importance than God's veracity.

I have noted several essential doctrines that these same folks do adhere to:

1) Church "fathers" are more credible than Bible authors.

2) The OT is from a different God, and anything not repeated in the NT is no longer in force.

3) The concensus of liberal university professors is the absolute truth - not the Bible.

There are more, but 125-word limit....
---jerry6593 on 11/23/11


You are truly a liar and slanderer since I never once made any statement to the effect that faith was not essential. What is not essential is your assumptive belief that Noah's flood was worldwise.

---lee1538 on 11/23/11

Again I ask WHAT THEN IS FAITH. Is faith ONLY believing God picked your mane out of a hat? You call THAT faith? Calvinists deciding what is important or not?

There ya go folks. Leej openly admitted believing God's word is not about FAITH. LeeJ openl admitting only HE can decide what is important scripture and what is not.

Just like ALL Calvinists who pick and choose certain scriptures to live by.

Same ol same ol argment.

OK Maarkv, it's your turn to come in and CUSS ME OUT AGAIN!
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


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MarkV, what is the real motive behind your question?

Are you asking others to give you permission not to believe every word of God?

Or since faith is a WORK and you have been given no faith on the subject matter, you think it doesn't matter to God what you believe?

Or AGAIN are you finally showing us all here with LeeJ you all don't have faith PERIOD!

Men without faith. You either have or or don't! Faith is not divided out per subject mstter.

Waiting for your CUSSING SPREE AGAIN MARKV.... Show everyoine your nasty side when confronted! because he can't answer the questions.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


Warwick, let me explain something to you. When a writer of Scripture, a reporter, wrote the passages we read, they either spoke for God as if God was speaking, or wrote what he experience at the time. We know the writer that wrote the passages of what happened during the flood, had to be in the Ark in order to know every detail of what happened. He could not have been out there on another boat writing what was happening on the Ark. So we conclude someone inside, had all the details, and then passed them on to someone else. Do you see where I'm going with this? Or Moses was sitting someplace and God gave him all the details. I wanted you to think. Not argue. Opening a dialogue opens more passages that maybe someone had not understood before.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/11


We know people CUSS because they have a limited vocabulary. We also know men cursed at Jesus, Paul, Peter and so on.

Cursing at anyone being asked probing questions too is the result of hiding ignorance. They don't want you to see their ignorance ( especially when they have made themselvs the EXPERTS on God and His Word) and know your questions are valid, BUT can't answer.....so they CURSE YOU and call you all sorts of names.

This is CULT BEHAVIOR! Spiritual abuse.

FAITH comes by HEARING, and hearing the word of God...period. It doesn't matter what the subject is. And THIS is where teh Calvinist is caught a LIAR
---kathr4453 on 11/23/11


//Do you notice how various BiblioSceptics say this or that "is NOT an essential doctrine...", to quote Lee. Add up the non-essentials of the various compromisers and there is enough material for a book!

You are truly a liar and slanderer since I never once made any statement to the effect that faith was not essential. What is not essential is your assumptive belief that Noah's flood was worldwise.

But such is the problem with the legalists who believe they know the Word and its Author but really do not.
---lee1538 on 11/23/11


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Eloy, okay, if you say so.
---John.usa on 11/23/11


Kath, indeed "The JUST shall live by faith." When all is said and done how can we please God other than by faith?

Do you notice how various BiblioSceptics say this or that "is NOT an essential doctrine...", to quote Lee. Add up the non-essentials of the various compromisers and there is enough material for a book!

Those who believe in long-ages/evolution say the historicity of the early chapters of Genesis 1 isn't essential. However it proves their view places death before sin while the gospel's foundation is that death came only after sin. They reject the only foundation of the one and only gospel which they say they believe to be truth!
---Warwick on 11/22/11


John, I aready posted the scriptures, the truth is, God flooded the entire world and destroyed all flesh in Noah's day, save eight souls upon the ark.
---Eloy on 11/22/11


Lee I repeat, Genesis 7:19 "And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. "all" and "whole" are from the same Hebrew 'kol' meaning 'all.' The use of 'kol' once can mean a locality, however its double use assures the writer meant the whole world.

2 Peter 3:5,6 confirms this saying the flood covered the "world" which comes from the Greek 'kosmos' which means the whole world, and its affairs. Never a locality.

You do not have the faith to believe what Scripture says.

We are commanded to believe Scripture by faith however your faith is elsewhere!
---Warwick on 11/22/11


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AMEN Cluny, Eloy and Warwick.

Especially your insight Warwick. I've always equated the second coming with Jesus warning. I see you are truly of the Faith of God's saved and have that deeper understanding of truth those outside of Christ just don't believe or understand.

Does it affect our faith what we believe? Yes, in every matter of our life believing what God said is so vitally important. The JUST shall live by faith.

Jesus is that ark.

The Ark is a type of Christ just as Noah is a type of the Church.

The Ark, Type of Christ, being LIFTED out of the water the 17th day of Abib, the exact day nearly 2400 years later Jesus rose from the dead. Genesis 8:4

No coincidente there!
---kathr4453 on 11/22/11


//At His coming judgement can we tell Him He was wrong about such as the creation, and the flood?
---Warwick on 11/22/

We can tell Him NOW that it is probable that we may not have a correct understanding of all truth and doctrine. We are all somewhere on a learning curve.

1 Cor. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


In any case, whether the flood was worldwide or simply regional is NOT an essential doctrine of the Christian faith.

Only the stupid legalist would say we must have all the right or correct doctrines in order to be saved.
---lee1538 on 11/22/11


Cluny Glory to Jesus Christ indeed.

Luke 17:26,27 Jesus says:

"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all."

Jesus says the flood was as real as His second coming. He is 'the ark' into whom we must enter to be saved. Will all outside 'the ark' be destroyed at His coming judgement? Or does the coming "all" just mean "all" in some locality, not the the whole world?

At His coming judgement can we tell Him He was wrong about such as the creation, and the flood?
---Warwick on 11/22/11


Kathr, I don't know from what in hell itself you are whinning about this time about me. Why don't you take your answers to another blog? Don't highjack this one again. Your evil remarks are not welcome.
I posted the question because it is a hermenuical question on theology. Not because it is my faith or your faith, or the continents spliting up. Both theories about the flood have been brought up through history. And many here have passages from Scripture that can help others who believe one way, and find out they were wrong. But you don't care about any of that, all you are after is evil continuously. And take your buddy's with you to another blog where you can whin all you want.
---Mark_V. on 11/22/11


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Eloy, which one is the truth?
---John.usa on 11/22/11


We have already been given the test questions that WILL be asked us at that great final exam, the Last Judgement.

They are in Matthew 25.

Is the flood among them?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/22/11


The difference is, one is truth, and the other is lie. And we are to believe truth, instead of lie: especially when the truth is presented to us, if we deny the truth, then we are left in ignorance.
---Eloy on 11/22/11


It is saying God couldnt have done it.
God cannot take life and put it back.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Basically they are saying there is no way God could have done it.
There was not enough time for God! Ha ha ha!
Thereby weakening the faith of some!
O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

SHhhhh, dont tell them, :)
Peace Mark, have a good holiday!
God bless
---TheSeg on 11/22/11


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MarkV, Sctipture has given us everything we ned to know there first was a supercontinent. Genesis 1:8-9.
ALL believed there was a supercontinent. This supercontinent was called earth/dry land.

The earth/dryland flooded...ALL the earth then was under water.

The Bible also supports when the continents split apart. Genesis 10:25. After the flood, after man began to fill the earth, God scattered the people giving different languages.

In the day of Peleg, meaning EARTHQUAKE, the earth was divided. With this divisions continents were formed and drifted into their place today.

I bet you never really saw Genesis 10:25 and thought much of it until now.

God releals the meanings of verses to those WHO HAVE FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/11


Is believing in a local flood wrong because it somehow changes your faith? What is wrong in believing local or universal flood? How does it effect your faith or how does it change the rest of Scripture in your opinion? MarkV//

MarkV, do you feel somehow that a LOCAL Flood is equal to limited atonement?

It somehow appears you AGAIN want to LIMIT God. He said Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD, and again He said the WHOLE WORLD was covered in water.

Is that it? "WHOLE WORLD" definition is then threatened in your doctrine, meaning limited/local?
---kathr4453 on 11/22/11


One would have to admit they really don't know what FAITH is to even ask this question.

Or MarkV, what exactly is your definition of FAITH. Faith in your own logic and reasoning, or FAITH in what God said was true.

Human logic and reasoning is completely opposite of FAITH.

You say FAITH was only given to the Elect. Are you now openly admitting you are NOT one of God's elect.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for AND the evidence of things not seen.

FAITH works through LOVE, AND it's the LOVE of God that passeth knowledge.

I didn't personally SEE creation or the flood. I BELIEVE God's account of it, through FAITH in revelation of His Word.

So your real question here is What is FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/11


Lee, the RC church did what you are today doing. You reinterpret Scripture through your nonBiblical long-ages evolutionary views. Much of the RC church heirarchy had accepted the so called scientific view of the day, that of Plato's geocentrism. When Galileo came along with observational evidence which contradicted their Platonic view they could not accept it. It did not help that Galileo was an argumentative arrogant man. But the point is they missinterpreted what the Bible said because of their worldly nonBiblical views.

It is dangerous for Christiand to reinterpret Scripture via prevailing scientific opinions, as such opinions change.

BTW 2 Peter 3:5,6 clearly shows the flood was global, as does Genesis 7:19.
---Warwick on 11/22/11


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What difference does it make whether there was a flood or not?
---John.usa on 11/21/11


Warwick //Our world provides ample evidence Scripture is reliable.

We can agree there is ample evidence for Scripture to be reliable, but we certainly cannot say that for its interpretation.

The Church used scripture to prove to Galileo the sun revolved around the earth.

And we have some on this forum who brand others as being less than Christian if we should even hint of a disagreement.

Of course, they think they have knowledge but in reality they are simply ignorant people that have a habit of interpreting the Bible in its entirely in a literal sense.

And one believes the flood was over the entire globe whereas it is more reasonable and even defensible to beleive the flood was only regional.
---lee1538 on 11/21/11


We accept Scripture by faith, not being eye-witnesses, but not blind faith. Our world provides ample evidence Scripture is reliable.

It is not about proof, we cannot prove the past. Compare the 2 different views of origins and see which better fits the facts.

For example if there was a world-wide flood which killed all land-dwelling air-breathing creatures except those on the ark we would expect to see world-wide evidence-we do. Most of the earth's surface is deep layers of sedimentary rock bearing fossils of trillions of creatures.

How did they get there? By slow and gradual deposition as proposed by evolutionists? Or quickly by a vast cataclysmic flood. Not by slow and gradual processes.
---Warwick on 11/21/11


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