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Has The Holy Spirit Disappeared

In 1 Corinthians 12-14 we read of the gifts of God's Spirit. Have all of these gifts disappeared with the completion of the New Testament?

Moderator - The works of the Holy Spirit never cease. Go witness in a third world country and see for yourself. As one Baptist friend of mine would say, the demons in the USA just wear business suits whereas the ones overseas are not so polite. P.S. - What has happened to Mima?

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 ---lee1538 on 12/1/11
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Lee, since you and I can speak freely without attacking each other, I would like for you to think about this. This is not my view point, it come from research on all the words spoken on those passages because I was a Pentacostal myself. Nothing should be more important then the Truth. In (1 Cor. 14:2,4,13,19,26,27) the word tongue is used in a singular "glossa" it refers to the Chorinthian ecstatic utterance. In (1 Cor. 14:23) tongues is plural with a plural pronoun, it refers to ecstatic utterances. In (1 Cor. 14:9) it refers to the physical tongue of man. The whole thesis of the Apostle Paul is that no one should be speaking in the presence of other human beings unless the hearers can understand what is being said.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11


Lee Part2: I know that is not the news anyone wants to hear, for many believe in gibberish. But Paul spoke about the gibberish tongue, and made the comparison to the people he was talking to. Gibberish is not a gift of God, tongues is. Their gibberish worship was on pagan deities. The carnal Corinthians using the counterfeit ecstatic speech of paganism and were not interested in being understood, but in making a dramtic display. The spirit by which they spoke was not the Holy Spirit, but their own human spirit or some demon. The mysteries they declared were the type associated with the pagan mystery religions. They were not the mysteries mentioned in Scripture which are all divine. We should all want nothing but the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11


MarkV - Understand what you are saying, however, the Bible verse I quoted was from the New Living Translation.

What I would desire from you is your reference on your position as apparently none of my commentaries expresses your viewpoint.

I always viewed "unknown tongue" simply to mean "unknown language" and there are thousand of languages.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


Lee, your making a mistake. You misquote the passage in 1 Cor. 14:2. "For he who speaks in a "tongue" does not speak to men but to God"
The word is "Tongue" singular. Not plual as you wrote.
The distinction between the singular tongue and the plural tongues is foundational to the proper interpretation of this chapter. Paul uses the singular to distinguish the counterfeit gift of pagan gibberish and the plural to indicate the genuine gift of a foreign language. The reason the K.J.V. english translators added "unkown" before every singular form (v.2,4,13,14,19,27) The singular is used because gibberish can't be plural. The only exception is in (v. 27.28).
---Mark_V. on 12/20/11


Mark_V., maybe you should read all forty verses of Corinthians chapter 14. And while you're at it, read chapter 13, too.
---Steveng on 12/20/11




MarkV - //I got myself a Word Study reference and found out the passage is not saying speaking to God but, speaking to a god.

I do not see that interpretation in any of the commentaries. So I doubt that the verse says that one speaks to 'a god' but to God.


1 Cor. 14:2 NLT For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.

The absence of a definite article in 1 Cor. 14:2, is much liken to the absence of the definite article in John 1:1.
---lee1538 on 12/20/11


lit.Gk: "For the speaking in a tongue, not the man speaks, but of God: for no one follows, but the Spirit speaks mysteries. Therefore if indeed speaking in a tongue let him pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, the Spirit in me prays, but the knowledge in me is unfruitful. What then to be? I will pray in the Spirit, and I will pray also in the knowledge. Else if you bless in the Spirit, how will he which occupying the place of the uninitiate say the Amen at your giving thanks, since what you say he knows not? For truly you give thanks well, but the other is not edified." I Cor.14:2,13-17.
---Eloy on 12/20/11


Lee1538 thank for trying to reassure me y'all don't mean to sterotype Pentecostals. Bless your heart you don't even realze you turned right around and told me I am ignorant and poor and thats why I'm a Pentecostal. You are totally wrong. Pentecostals are no different in education and economic class than any other denominations,we actually know how to read and write and count money. Lee prejudice of any kind doesn't fit into God's Law of Love. I am not hurt or angry but I want you to see what you are doing and it really hurts you more than any one else. The most important thing for any Christian is to be Spiritually in tune with God and that doesn't matter about money,position,or education only obedience to God and His Word. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 12/20/11


MarkV thank you,I know you don't mean to hurt me and you haven't. It's a shame you had such a frightening experience but even if that wasn't really from God,and I can't say it wasn't since I wasn't there,it doesn't mean God doesn't have the real tongues where the Holy Ghost gives the person utterance. It may sound like gibberish but this is the meaning of "unknown tongue" that what is spoken isn't known by those who hear. I'm curious how did that woman baptise those people? The Gift of the HG with tongues doesn't come from the person praying,that baptism only comes from God. Think about this if you are wrong,and you know in general I think you are,about Gift of HG with tongues then you are speaking against God not man.Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 12/20/11


Strongaxe, Of course I have read the passage in 1 Cor. 14:1-19. When I first came upon these passage "For he who speak in a tongue (singluar-unknown) does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him, however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries"
I too was wondering concerning that passage. I got myself a Word Study reference and found out the passage is not saying speaking to God but, speaking to a god. That is the Greek translation. The Greek text has no definite article (same in Acts 17:23) "an unknown god" Their gibberish was worship of pagan deities. Look up the word Theos, and see how it was translated. Information is given for every instance the word tongue (singular is used).
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11




james l, Stay with the blogged topic and stop foolishly dissing posters. The disobedient Corinthian church that Paul was addressing has zero to do with the blogged topic of the gifts of the Holy Spirit still operating today, and zerpo to da with my reply. Nothing a NonChristian says is able to fly in my face nor into the face of any other Christian, for all their sarcasm "apparently" is vanity, and "apparently" is foolishness, "apparently". So when your carnality decides to oppose a saint again, I suggest that you look into the mirror and think twice before posting any dissings.
---Eloy on 12/19/11


Strongaxe Part 2: You also said,
"1 Corinthians 14:2,4,13,14,19,27 mention "speaking in an unknown tongue" six times. If unknown tongues were not real, scripture would not talk about them."
The Bible talks about them because the Corinthians were miss using the gifts to boast in front of others. Chaos and disorder ran rampant in that assembly (v,33). He who speaks in a tongue only edifies himself. And that was not the purpose for tongues. That is why Paul gave us chapter 13 concerning love. None of those gifts are any good if you lack love.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11


The Holy Spirit still moves upon the face of the world It is love that has been evapoating from the earth.
---Steveng on 12/19/11


//Has The Holy Spirit Disappeared//

Check 1 cor.1:16.17, 6:19
the Holy Spirit still indwells the true believer.
---michael_e on 12/17/11


\\I not only have read Paul's letters, which letters you do not know the real meaning\\
---Eloy on 12/17/11


You didn't answer my comment that the Corinthian church was filled with carnal believers, yet seemd to "move" in the gifts more than other churches.

And that simple observation flies in the face of your opinion that the reason we don't see the Holy Spirit moving more is because of carnality.

If you've read and translated, did you miss all the parts where Paul chides them for carnality? And yet goes on to tell them how to properly use the gifts?

How does that jibe with what you wrote?????????
---James_L on 12/17/11


Mark_V.:

1 Corinthians 14:2,4,13,14,19,27 mention "speaking in an unknown tongue" six times. If unknown tongues were not real, scripture would not talk about them. Verse 2 says we talk to God rather than men. Verse 14 says the spirit prays, but the understanding is unfruitful. That is, our spirit is praying to God, rather than our mind. It does not say this is necessarily a bad thing.
---StrongAxe on 12/18/11


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Mark_V. on 12/17/11. Very well stated. Amen
---joseph on 12/18/11


Mark V., this proves that you do not read the entire verses I give you. Did you read the entire 1 Corinthians 14:2-5 or did you read only what I posted 1 Corinthians 14:2?

Besides, what part of "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God" do you not understand. There is a connection between your thoughts of the spirit and verbal talking.
---Steveng on 12/18/11


Eloy, I also agree with James concerning the statement you made,
"\\The reason that you do not witness much activity of the Holy Spirit is becasue people are living in sin rather than living in Christ."

The Holy Spirit is always at work. Nothing stops God from doing what He ordained. Nothing has power over God not even sin. The fact is that He works harder because of sin. You think you know the answer because you think you are perfect and have perfect answers, but you don't. Sorry to disappoint you.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11


Steven God does not recognize something that is gibberish. If you don't know what you are asking and what you are talking about, how can God respond to you? God has all knowledge, for He created everything. He did not create a language that is unknown, there is no such thing. We come to God in worship with our petitions, you have no petitions when you don't know what you are even talking about. We should worship God in Spirit and Truth. What is spiritual or Truth about something unknown to even you?
---Mark_V. on 12/17/11


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James, your "apparently" is Not apparently, but your apparently is manifested falsehood. I am a born-again Christian filled with the Holy Spirit, and I post only Truth from my Lord. I not only have read Paul's letters, which letters you do not know the real meaning of his writings, but I translate the holy scriptures from their original tongues. So I suggest that before you decide to foolishly dis me or any other of my brothers or sisters from Christ, that you look into the mirror.
---Eloy on 12/17/11


//Can you explain what is a "regular church service"?

One that is characterized by proper order, according to a defined pattern of behavior, one that lacks impropriety.

Sorry but I believe that the scripture tells us that God is a god of order, not confusion.


All too often charismatic services get out of hand and become totally chaotic.



---lee1538 on 12/17/11


Mark_V.: "Unknown tongues are not real. For there is no such thing as an unknown tongue. language no one knows. And it cannot be proven it is operated by God."

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him, howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries... 1 Corinthians 14:2-5
---Steveng on 12/17/11


Obviously if there is a place for the sign gifts, it is not in the regular church service.
---lee1538 on 12/16/11

Can you explain what is a "regular church service"?

Is it: make announcements, sing 3 songs, take an offering, preach for an hour, dismiss, and go home?

Do you think the Lord is pleased with this kind of worship?

When was the last time you had a prayer service that lasted all night? When was the last time you saw people with true repentance? When was the last time you saw people wanting to stay and worship instead of going home?

That is my regular church service.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/16/11


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Darline, I'm sorry if you are hurt by what I said. It is not meant to hurt you in anyway. But this is a very serious matter, for many are been deceived. I was explaining to lee my own experience. When I saw everyone speaking in gibberish, it really scared me, It reminded me of those movies where pagan or heathen tribes in some countries, dance around a fire, speaking in gibberish. What is to say that what is done today in many churches isn't the same? Unknown tongues are not real. For there is no such thing as an unknown tongue. language no one knows. And it cannot be proven it is operated by God. I can understand known tongues, they are known by the ones who hear. And no, not all Pentacostal churches teach the same. I need to make that clear.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11


Darlene //please don't lump all Pentecostals together and make your bad experiences apply to all of them.

I am sure neither myself or MarkV has any desire to stereotype any charismatic group. It is really a matter of what class of people you have in the Pentecostal church, most being uneducated and of lower economic class.

The spiritual gift I would like to see more of is spiritual discernment as there is far too much heretical beliefs in the church today.
---lee1538 on 12/16/11


\\The reason that you do not witness much activity of the Holy Spirit is becasue people are living in sin rather than living in Christ. You cannot entertain the flesh and be consecrated in the Spirit too.\\
---Eloy on 12/15/11


You've apparently never read Paul's letters to the Corinthian church.

Those were the most carnal believers of the time, and they seem to have had more use of spiritual gifts than any other church.

They abused the Lord's Table, showed favoritism, condoned incest, had false teachers, factions, backbiting, etc etc etc

Paul could very well have writtten those letters to today's Charismatic churches. I know I left the AG churches for just such as these
---James_L on 12/16/11


Lee and MarkV I'm so sorry for your bad experiences,however,please don't lump all Pentecostals together and make your bad experiences apply to all of them. It just isn't the case. The churches I have attended are as different as daylight from dark to those you discribe. There are some Pentecostal churches I won't attend either because of what they practice but that doesn't mean all the other Petecostal churches are bad. I just always dislike seeing churches,people,or anything lumped together as a whole because it never is true about them all. If the guiding light of Christ is in any church that church will operate in love and wisdom then there will be none of the hurt and confussion you speak of. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 12/16/11


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Lee part 2: After that class the pastor wanted to talk to me and explain things to me, but by that time, the teacher had imbarrased me and I was in no moot. Aftr that I being to look and find out that almost all those teachings come from the WOF teachers. Most all of them come from the same school. I colleded a lot of material on what they taught. The taugth two Baptisms of the Spirit. And that you could ask anything and God will respond to you wishes if you have faith. I finally left the church. I loved everyone for most were very kind. So long as you didn't ask them about the gifts. Because someone's feelings are always hurt.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11


MarkV - Yes I have noticed that those who claim the sign gifts discourage anyone to question their actions. In the charasmatic group I was acquired with in Fairbanks, AK, we had an elderly gentlemen die. The Pentecostals blamed his death on God saying that he had the nerve to question one of the inspired prophetic utterances.

Seems to me that they truly promote fear as a weapon to protect their turf.

Another thing that I noticed was that the recovering alcoholics and others that were in poor mental health are particularly disruptive.

Obviously if there is a place for the sign gifts, it is not in the regular church service.
---lee1538 on 12/16/11


lee, Nope. God's Spirit is strong and active ever since the day of Pentecost. The reason that you do not witness much activity of the Holy Spirit is becasue people are living in sin rather than living in Christ. You cannot entertain the flesh and be consecrated in the Spirit too. First the flesh with its appetites thereof must be sacrificed, and this is done through fasting, through starving it, and in fervent prayer to the Lord. Spend time in worshipping Jesus and praying and reading the scriptures and singing and listening to Christian songs and worship music. Be a God-lover rather than a pleasure-lover, hunger and thrist after Jesus, than you will witness great activity of his Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 12/15/11


Lee, my experience was worse. I belonged to a Pentacostal church for seven years. I had no clue in the beginning how much hate, and animosity came out when someone ask a question concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. But I sure found out. The last year I was there the church invited a sister to teach us from Derek Prince ministry. When I asked a question concerning the Baptism she came ungluded. She told me not to question the gifts or her teachings. Then she asked, who was not baptized in the Holy Spirit, half of the class wasn't. She baptized them, and all started speaking in gibberish tongue. You had a church all speaking gibberish and it was scary. That was not a godly scene. I was the only one seating down. All were standing up.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11


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Darlene//As for the "sign gifts" being destructive to orderly worship it has been my experience it is just the opposite.

Your experience is clealy much different than mine.

One needs to realize that in most churches genuine Christians may well be in the minority.

As such most congregation as a whole does not have any ability to understand spiritual things.

Speaking in tongues may well drive away those that may become Christians.

1 Cor. 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

And that was my impression when I first witnessed speaking in tongues.
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


//Lee having a miracle doesn't mean ones theology is wrong either.

yes, that is why the Bible should be our ultimate guide.

Miracles are really unexplained phenomena, could be anything from a faith healer, witch doctor, saying Mass on Friday nights, etc.

My adopted son was taken to a healer that strongly believed in the Virgin Mary. He was healed of a rash that the doctors could not help him with. Face all swollen up and having problems with breathing. But do I believe in the Virgin Mary as well as the doctrine that these apparitions seems to promote? No.

My cousin whose leg grew back was a charismatic Lutheran from Oregon and we have lost contact with them over the years.
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do, and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.".

I would say Jesus is addressing primarily the Apostles in that their works would be 'greater' in the sense that they would see more extensive results.

Those that believed in Christ while He was on earth were few in number, however, the Apostles were able to proclaim the gospel to a wider number of people who believed.
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


Just wonder if your cousin had medical evidence the leg grew out,as I did. Saying it happened and having proof it did are two different things. Lee having a miracle doesn't mean ones theology is wrong either. Just because another person from another denomination thinks ones theology is wrong doesn't mean it is. As for the "sign gifts" being destructive to orderly worship it has been my experience it is just the opposite. There are the guides of how to operate in those Gifts in Church in the Bible and they are adhered to closely. No matter the Gift of the Spirit or position in the Body as the Bible says to whom more is given,more is required. The Bible also says the sheep know their shepherd and will follow no other. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 12/15/11


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Lee, I agree with you. John 14: did not mean that believers were going to have more power then God, that is just nonsense. I cannot believe anyone would even think that. "greater works" in extent. Jesus was on earth for a short time. He was leaving to go to the Father. The only way the disciples would be able to be used to do those "greater works" was through the Holy Spirit. Jesus comforted them with the means that would provide them with the necessary resources to accomplish their task without His immediate presence which they had come to depend upon. They could do more works then He did for His time was short. Jesus Christ had the power to create the heavens and the earth, no one has that power.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11


part 2: Christians should never go to far too the left. Power belongeth unto God" and to Him alone. Not a creature in the entire universe has an atom of power save what God delegates. No person has power to preserve himself.
"He upholdeth all things by the word of His power" (Heb. 1:3). He even "holdeth our soul in life" (Psa. 55:9) The WOF teachers have made many claims that man possess this powers, they can order one thing and they get it, just nonsense. And they are completely wrong. They, the Word of Faith teachers openly defy God who is clothed with Omnipotence, who can rend us to pieces or cast us into hell any minute. Beware of this false teachers.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11


Darlene // I was prayed for and my short leg grew out,I had XRays to prove it and worn a piece in my shoe to build it up.

Interesting that one of my cousins had the same experience. However, miracles and wonders do not mean that ones theology is correct. There are those who have seen a vision of the Virgin Mary, but it is impossible to convince them that such a phenomena comes with some very bad theology.

As to spiritual gifts, I believe you will find them in nearly every Christian denominations but all too often the so-called sign gifts are destructive to orderly worship.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


Performing a greater miracle than Christ isn't impossible for all miracles,even from Christ,are done by God who has all power on heaven and earth,which he gave to Christ. I just can't imagine what a greater miracle would be. I was prayed for and my short leg grew out,I had XRays to prove it and worn a piece in my shoe to build it up. My Mother prayed for a lifeless,not breathing man and he came back to life. My cousin and I layed hands on and prayed for man doctors said would die with cancer,he was healed. Just remember no one on earth has ever performed a miracle or healing,its all God.
---Darlene_1 on 12/14/11


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//"Everything" written in the bible is for our use - even today. Christians are to perform miracles even greater than Jesus//
If you really believe what you say, there is a chidrens hospital close by, maybe we could go there and you could perform some of these greater miracles.
---michael_e on 12/13/11


Matt.8:23-27 The story in the quoted passage reflects what is happening today concerning the HS & His gifts. When men feel they do not need GOD, that their knowledge, wealth & resources are OK for them: then the HS cannot work in them. Because of this, it will look as if HS disappears but HE is always everywhere.
---Adetunji on 12/13/11


Strongaxe, the reason I answered Steven G was because of that verse. Not because he said the words. That is why I anwsered the way I did. He nor anyone else can do miracles greater the God Himself in power. Not possible. No one has that power. All believer can do "greater works than these" did not mean greater works in power, but in extent. They would become witnesses to all the world through the power of the indwelling and infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8) and would bring many to salvation because of the Comforter dwelling in them. The focus is on spiritual rather than physical miracles while Christ was with them. Because He next tells them, "because I go to My Father"
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11


Mark_V.:

Perhaps you forgot John 14:12
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father."
---StrongAxe on 12/10/11


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Steven, I disagree with you that a genuine Christian can produce greater miracles then Christ. Just not possible. You are reading too much into the passage. Christ created the heavens and the earth, I don't know of any genuine Christian who can do more then that, even if he has love.
Second, everything in the Bible is useful to all Christians, but not everything applies to the life of every Christian. For example, Jesus upbraids the Pharisees soundly for their concept of corban. We don't have the concept of Corban so it does not apply to our lives now, but the passages are useful to us to learn why Jesus was upset at them.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11


"Everything" written in the bible is for our use - even today. Christians are to perform miracles even greater than Jesus. Have you no faith that anything is possible with God? The gifts are to bring glory to God, but if a christian plans to use it for profit, then God will not allow it.

The reason people don't see miracles today is because love, genuine love, has practically vanished from the earth, save the very few. If a person does not have genuine love within, how do you suppose the Holy Spirit can abide in that person and, in turn, perform miracles? Miracles happen only when the Holy Spirit abides in the christian. Thus showing genuine christians are a rarity today. It is genuine love that will get you into heaven.
---Steveng on 12/9/11


It is true that many believers are excited to pridefully possess personal gifts ("Look at me, I'm so special, I/me has been GIVEN GIFTS/rewards of outstanding excellence").

There are also some who choose not to glorify themselves (glorifying GOD ONLY), and the FRUIT of their spirit is desirable to God....

Ephesians 5:8
"walk as CHILDREN OF LIGHT" (God is LIGHT, not 'THEE light'....new age demonics).

verse 5:9 "for the FRUIT of light....".

If your devotion/worship is a PRIDEFUL ONE that has PERSONAL gifts (tongues, etc.), it is glorifying MAN (ministers, self, etc.), not GOD.
---more_excellent_way on 12/9/11


StrongAxe //If you question tongues, you have an issue with God's policies, since he was the one who instituted them in the first place.
---
Have an issue with tongues? Not at all however, I have witnessed too much the chaos caused by those who speak in tongues.

While I maintain all the spiritual gifts are ours, most are incapable of being responsible and are unable to handle these gifts.

And many that think they have the gift of tongues, they have deceived themselves and merely babble.

Unfortunately Pentecostal make this gift as a indication one is filled with the Holy Spirit, and they are simply wrong.

---lee1538 on 12/9/11


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more_excellent_way:

There is a sign that says "God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts".

Mark_V.:

The whole notion of "gift" (whether we're talking about spiritual gifts or physical objects) is that, they originally belong to the giver, and afterwards belong to the receiver, who can do with them whatever he wishes. If there are string attached, it isn't really a gift.

lee1538:

If a message in tongues is given, it is supposed to have an interpreter to make the meaning clear. If you question tongues, you have an issue with God's policies, since he was the one who instituted them in the first place.
---StrongAxe on 12/9/11


God very generously/graciously gave us all "creation"/nature.

Before I knew His name, I called Him "All Wonder and Beauty" (not just in recognition of His creative works, but because He is where THE 'PEOPLE' came from). My only prayer was that He would send someone to purify THE PEOPLE (I didn't request mercy for myself, but only that I be served justice for my unworthiness). I didn't even know His name, but He had always been teaching me so that my attitude/spirit would be like His attitude/spirit.

We are "vessels of mercy"/grace, Romans 9.

Do not lay claim to the GIFTS of God's kindness/Spirit, we should have "FRUITS" of OURS..."His Spirit in the inner man" Eph. 3:16.
---more_excellent_way on 12/9/11


Lee, so you and Strongaxe both agree that the gifts belong to the one who receives them, and that they are use at their own descretion, that is what it sounds to me you both are saying, right? If they had to be told to stop doing what they were doing, doesn't that mean they were using them as they wanted?
I believe many of the gifts are been used today, but some have stopped. The gifts did not come back until John Wesley taught a definite second work of grace distinct from the remission of sins. By laying special emphasis upon such an instantaneous experience of sanctification subsequent to regeneration.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/11


StrongAxle//Exactly. And the solution? Do exactly what Paul did - admonish those who use the gifts to excess and out of order, to do so in order.
---
I for one would question the benefit of listening to those who speak in tongues as if their message is from the Word of God, why then not have it in a known language to begin with?
---lee1538 on 12/8/11


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lee1538:

Exactly. And the solution? Do exactly what Paul did - admonish those who use the gifts to excess and out of order, to do so in order.
---StrongAxe on 12/8/11


StrongAxle //When Paul encountered the out-of-control "charismania" in the Corinthian church, he correctly chastised them for it. However, he instructed them to keep the gifts under control, NOT to suppress them entirely - that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Agree with you in part, however, it is just too easy to see these sign gifts are too hard to control in a worship service where order is needed.

And all too often what we really hear is babbling from those who believe they have the gift of tongues but really do not.

Perhaps all too often those who possess these gifts really become obsessed with them to the point where they rely on them and not on the word of God.
---lee1538 on 12/8/11


Strongaxe, I disagree on the gifts. Bringing someone from the dead is not a gift of the Holy Spirit to a believers. The gift of healing was. God gave the power for the Apostles to bring people from the dead but it was not one of the Spiritual gifts. When a gift is given to someone, it belongs to him till he dies. Jesus did bring people back to life, He is God after all. There was many healings in that age, this was due to the unique need to accredit the Messiah and to authenticate the first miracles of the Gospel. Once the gospel close, there was no more need for some of the gifts. Paul was sick and never healed himself or even ask another believer to heal him. When Timothy was sick, Paul did not heal him either but told him to take some wine.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/11


Mark_V.:

Then what about the cases where the Apostles raised people from the dead? Or Jesus, when he raised Lazarus and/or the little girl? Were they violating God's sovreignty by bringing someone back to life whom God had already called?

The whole point of being given the power to raise the dead, is that you have the authority to choose to use (or not) it as well. The same discretion is also present in all the other gifts.
---StrongAxe on 12/7/11


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MarkV // if God gave the power to man to bring life where someone has died, that would mean that people have that power to use at their discretion. And if that person had that power, he would be able to bring someone from the dead whom God had already called for.

Our moderator posted that while the gifts are owns,some can can only be used in accordance to God's will. They cannot be used at our discretion.

Appreciate your comments on this issue.
---lee1538 on 12/7/11


Moderator: 'demons in the USA just wear business suits whereas the ones overseas are not so polite. '

I SUSPECT a polite demon can be even more damaging than a visibly demonic one!

Try reading C.S.Lewis' 'Screwtape Letters' - it's a nice attempt at guessing how demons work
---Peter on 12/7/11


Lee, I disagree with you on the gifts. Here is why, if God gave the power to man to bring life where someone has died, that would mean that people have that power to use at their discretion. And if that person had that power, he would be able to bring someone from the dead whom God had already called for. Just not possible. He would have power over God with his own discretion. He would be able to bring people from any hospital who died to life. No one has that power or gift. Gifts are something given from the Spirit to man. And if that gift still exist, then God is not in control but man is. Or at least certain man have the same power for life as God. Man's discretion is not God's discretion.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11


lee1538:

When Paul encountered the out-of-control "charismania" in the Corinthian church, he correctly chastised them for it. However, he instructed them to keep the gifts under control, NOT to suppress them entirely - that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
---StrongAxe on 12/6/11


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//my answer is no, not all the gifts have disappeared.

What gifts have disappeared, the sign gifts?

My former pastor preached a sermon on gifts when his head deacon came back from a charismatic meeting in Florida. While he preached that he believed all the gifts were legitimate, he simply did not want some of them in his church as they tend to become too disruptive. I respect his viewpoint in light of the chaos found in some Pentecostal / Charismatic churches.
---lee1538 on 12/6/11


Lee, my answer is no, not all the gifts have disappeared. Many have, those that were needed to begin the Apostolic Church since there was no New Testament. Most of the gifts that ended once the Church and the cannon of Scripture was put together were revived by Charles G, Finney in the first half of the nineteenth century. Eighteeth century Methodism is the mother of the nineteened century American Holiness movement which, in turn, bore twenthieth century Pentacostalism. John Wesley taught a definite second work of grace distinct from the remission of sins. Finney's ideas were that believers were so sluggish, not excited, that he purposely geared the believers emotionaly and to high excitment.
---Mark_V. on 12/6/11


"new revelation" as new to the scriptures IE Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses? No way!

None of the nine Spiritual Gifts conflict with the Bible since they are listed in the Bible for believers.
---Moderator on 12/5/11


Moderator// the Gifts are from the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit leads.

Do you as claimed by some who critize charismatics, that new revelation can be introduced thru tongues or the gift of prophecy?

For instance, one group in California back in the 60's prophesied a great earthquate destruction. Some even left high paying jobs and moved elsewhere. Of course, nothing happened.
---lee1538 on 12/5/11


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mima's last posting was in October of this year, when he said he was going on dialysis.
---Cluny on 12/3/11


Cluny - Thanks! I just pray everything is alright since I know he is older.
---Moderator on 12/3/11


\\Cluny, do you know how long ago that was and has he commented back as to how he is doing?
---Moderator on 12/2/11\\

It's been sometime during 2011, when he said he was going on dialysis.

I'll check later and see when his last message was posted.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/3/11


Lee, Yes, the Gifts are from the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit leads. If done in the flesh, nothing is going to happen. God is just working through a person that is being obedient to him typically through prayer, fasting and laying on of hands.
---Moderator on 12/2/11


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Be careful not to confuse the works of the Holy Spirit with the works of Satan. Matt 7:21-24. Rev. 13:13-14 "And he does great wonders making fire to come down from heaven unto earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those that dwell on earth with powerful miracles...".

It is our job to make sure that we are not deceived. Matt: 24:4-5. "Make sure that no man deceives you. For many shall come saying that I (Jesus) am the Christ and shall deceive many".
---barb on 12/2/11


Moderator //I have seen in person and experienced cancers disappear, legs grow out (causes a back to be healed), arms grow out, demons cast out, arthritis healed, migraines instantly leave, etc.
---

Are these 9 spiritual gifts under the control of the recipient or are they displayed only at the discretion of the Holy Spirit?

It would seem that if they gifts were mine, then I could heal anyone I see in a hospital or cast out demons in a cult church.
---lee1538 on 12/2/11


Karen, yes I have seen the nine Spiritual Gifts in operation hundreds of times. As Cluny mentioned by name, I have also seen people operate in the flesh or demonic activity. Frequently, I have seen people operate in the flesh which is I why I can truly understand why some Christians throw the baby out with the bath water if that is all they have ever witnessed.

I have seen in person and experienced cancers disappear, legs grow out (causes a back to be healed), arms grow out, demons cast out, arthritis healed, migraines instantly leave, etc.
---Moderator on 12/2/11


Cluny, do you know how long ago that was and has he commented back as to how he is doing?
---Moderator on 12/2/11


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Moderator....Have you seen these manifestations yourself? Do you have pictures or videos? It would be nice to see these miracles.
---KarenD on 12/2/11


Please tell us what you mean by "completion?"

Do you mean now that Jesus died and rose from the dead? Do you mean that now it is written in black ink and finished being written?

ALL of the Gifts of the Spirit are in operation today. Jesus said if I go away, I will send you another Helper, the Holy Spirit and He will guide you into all truth? How does he do that? By bearing witness with our spirit that we are the Sons of God and cry out Abba Father.
---anon on 12/2/11


lee: No, the never disappeared. But now as 2000 years ago the main issue is what DOCTRINE comes with this or that sign? What fruit does it produce ini the lives of the persons involved?

Oral Roberts might have had a healing ministry, but he clearly fell into the trap of avarice, and pandered to this weakness in many of his followers.

Moderator: mima told us the last time he appeared that he was having to go on dialysis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/2/11


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