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Rebirth Or A New Birth

Rebirth or New Birth? Do you know the difference?

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 ---kathr4453 on 12/3/11
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A Rite is an Initiation ceremony such as baptism, confirmation and Bar or Bat Mitzvah are considered important rites of passage/entry for people of their respective religions.

A rite of entry or rite of passage is a "ritual" event that marks a person's progress from one status to another.

So leej1538, tell us all the other sacramants or RITES theProtestant Calvinists continued from the RCC??
---kathr4453 on 12/10/11


Kathr, as always you lied about what I believe as you lie about what others believe when you said,

"This is WHY MarkV made that aweful statement that teh Holy Spirit REALLY DOESN"T live in you, and that Jesus REALLY isn't in you."

More lies, I have never said such things. What I did say is that, born again is not the indwelling of the Spirit. When a person is born again, it means he is brought to spiritual life, he is then indwelled by the Spirit, and you can call Him the Holy Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ, He is the same God. And then you are sealed by the Spirit forever. You also make up lies about Calvin, because you don't believe in the Eternal Son of God, by your own words. He did.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11


Mark E, your argument concerning "born again" only brings doubt to what it literally means. The phrase lit. means "born from above" Jesus answered a question that Nicodemus does not even ask. Jesus read Nicodemus heart and came to the very core of his problem, the need for spiritual transformation or regeneration, produce by the Holy Spirit. It's a new birth that God created in a person, new in the fact that it has a new beginning, carrying with it eternal life that the person did not have before ( 2 Cor. 5:17: Titus 3:5: 1 Peter 1:3: 1 John 2:29: 3:9: 4:7: 5:1,4,18).
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11


Christan, I already told you what scripture has revealed to us. AFTER Jesus died and rose from the dead, HE TOOK all those ot saints who were in a place called Abraham's Bosom ((according to Jesus in the references on Luke ))TO HEAVEN WITH Him at His ascention.

It appears too in the Bood of Matthew and some too believe that many wwere also resurrected???. It sure wasn't NT Saints who Matthew was referring to.

Any good Bible teacher can tell you this. Get some of Charles Stanley's teachings Christan, even MarV will approve of his teachings, and even his on the New Birth too.

You really need to broaden your understanding of scripture.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/11


MarkV, Yes, some sinners delight in forcing the holy scriptures to say what they do not actually say. But the scripture cannot be broken. For example, when God says, "Love your enemies", he did not mean "agree with your enemies, nor condone their evil, nor even have sexual intimacies with them". But it is the Greek word "agapate" ( < "aga"= gain + "pate"= empathy, feeling), have feeling, care for. "But I say to you, Care for the enemies of you, bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you, and pray over them that shame you and persecute you."
---Eloy on 12/10/11




My sources tell me Calvin held water baptism similar to the OT view on circumcision - a rite of entrance into the faith.Lee1538


Lee1538 and I INSIST you show any one of us any scripture where anyone has/had a rite of entrance into the faith.

THAT's CULTISH!Christan Churches do not practice RITES!RCC DOES! Rite of entrance into teh RCC Church.

So some church splashes water on an infant and that gives that infant a RITE of entrance into the faith????

Was Circumcision on the 8th day a RITE of entrance? NO!Were Girls Circumcised too?NO!

It was as SIGN of the Covenant God made with a NATION, not an individual.

I'm sick, really sick to see how perverted Christianity has become.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/11


kathr, let's recap what you've said,

"OT Saints certainly did commune with God, however were not BORN AGAIN..."

My question is, if OT saints were never born of the Spirit like you teach and they have passed on from this world, where are they right now? You cannot tell me that they are in Paradise as Jesus contradicts your teaching in John 3:5 declaring, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Your reference to Luke about Abraham and Lazarus seems to ridicule your understanding. That's because Abraham was in Paradise, and according to you, since Abraham was not born of the Spirit, what's he doing there?
---christan on 12/9/11


Kathr, again you produce nothing but lies and accusations not only about Calvin, but anyone who disagrees with your cultic view. Until you believe by faith in the Eternal Son of God, you will never understand. Christ is not dependent upon another for His existence, but is in fact self-existence. You follow a Arius heresy. Because you believe He was created a Son. Twisting meanings in scripture is proof of your lack of believe in the Eternal Son of God.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/11


Kathr4453 - I still insist you provide a reference as none of mine confirm your viewpoint. Namely that Calvin associated water baptism with regeneration.

My sources tell me Calvin held water baptism similar to the OT view on circumcision - a rite of entrance into the faith.

//Calvinism is Reformed RCC. It never really left the RCC teaching completely.

Probably cannot find anyone what would agree with you. From what I can tell, he was one of the most hated by the Roman Church as his theology was totally Biblically based? When is yours going to be the same?
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


Kathr4453 I would still like to have your reference that Calvin believed water baptism is also regeneration.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11
Oh my Lee, are you admitting there are things you do not knwo about Calvin's NON CONVERSION salvation experience?

That's not the only sacraments Calvin believed in.


CALVIN BELIEVED IN INFANT BAPTISM

Calvin said, "Baptism is properly administered to infants is something owed to them."

CALVIN BELIEVED IN SACRAMENTS EQUAL TO GOD'S WORD

"Therefore, let it be regarded as a settled principle that the sacraments have the same office as the Word of God: to offer and set forth Christ to us, and in him the treasures of heavenly grace."
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11




LeeJ, Calvinism is Reformed RCC. It never really left the RCC teaching completely.

It's the RCC's red headed step child!

Calvinists no more understand teh NEW BIRTH than the RCC does.

AND there are no sacraments in scripture. THAT's WORKS salvation...
period...end of story!

And then you all have the audacity to point your fingers at those you call works salvation. OH PLEASE!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


The Council of Trent (1545-63) stated that while Christ "merited for us justification by His most holy passion...the instrumental cause [of justification/regeneration] is the sacrament of baptism....If anyone says that baptism is...not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."1 Vatican II (1962-65) reconfirms all of Trent2 and reiterates the necessity of baptism for salvation,3 as does the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church released by the Vatican in 1993: "Baptism is necessary for salvation...the Church does not know of any [other] means...that assures entry into eternal beatitude...." 4

Calvin held to this belief.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


Kathr4453 I would still like to have your reference that Calvin believed water baptism is also regeneration.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


All my studies with Calvin's theology tells me that Calvin viewed infant baptism as a sign of the covenant Christians enter into similar to physical circumcision in the Old covenant.

---?
---lee1538 on


leej, as you can see , physical circumcision never saved anyone. Many a circumcised Jew is and has rejected Jesus Christ alone as their salvation.

Abraham believed BEFORE circumcision proving circumcision does not save anyone.

Throwing water on anyone no more put one in a covenant relationship with God than the man in the moon, OR Mormons baptizing for the dead.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


\\And No infant can KNOW he is a sinner and receive Jesus for teh Forgivness of sin.\\

To say you have to understand and know things for God to work in your life is the heresy of gnosticism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/9/11


Then what you are teaching is RELIGION. Not personal relationship through faith ALONE. Infants cannot exercise faith KNOWING they are a sinner in need of a savior.

No one is saved by Proxy! and then forced into WORKS salvation to maintain salvation as your faith teaches.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


Christan, it appears you never read Luke or what JESUS told us about Abrahams Bosom, AKA Paradise and the story of Lazarus. NO ONE is in the Lake of fire today who are lost. That wont happen until the final judgment. SO where are lost souls today?
Hell, also known as Hades or sheol had and was divided by a great gulf between the righteous OT Saints and the Lost. Luke gives us a picture of this.
When Jesus rose from the dead, HE TOOK with Him to heaven all OT Saints. He lead captivity captive. The way into the Holy of Holies had opened by Christ death and resurrection and blood.
NO ONE could come into the presence of God except THROUGH Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


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cluny...Scripture clearly says that "they believed and were baptized.
Can an infant believe in Christ?
---JIM on 12/9/11


\\Water Baptism can no more out the Sporit of GOD IN YOU than the man in the moon. \\

That's not what Acts 2 says.

\\And No infant can KNOW he is a sinner and receive Jesus for teh Forgivness of sin.\\

To say you have to understand and know things for God to work in your life is the heresy of gnosticism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/9/11


"Jesus is in Heaven RIGHT, and LOOK at who is with Him NOW. The Spirits of JUST men made perfect were OT Saints who were made PERFECT at Jesus Resurrection." kathr

Another one of your twisted theology and quoting Hebrews 12:22-24 to justify your conviction is nothing more than using the name of the Lord in vain.

If by your understanding that OT saints could have been justified without faith by the Spirit than why doesn't God leave it as it is for those who are post-OT? Your theology smells of works by the law which Paul warns, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:11

Scripture never contradict Scripture.
---christan on 12/9/11


//Calvin believed himself to be regenerated at his infant baptism...

Reference Please!

All my studies with Calvin's theology tells me that Calvin viewed infant baptism as a sign of the covenant Christians enter into similar to physical circumcision in the Old covenant.

What happened to you? Did a Calvinist tell you what you wanted to hear and then after he got what he wanted simply dumped you off on the side of the road someplace?
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


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Calvin believed himself to be regenerated at his infant baptism......WATER SPTINKLED on him. Water Baptism can no more out the Sporit of GOD IN YOU than the man in the moon. And No infant can KNOW he is a sinner and receive Jesus for teh Forgivness of sin. It is a personal one on one experience and no parent can SAVE their child, andymore than a Mormon can baptize anyone for the dead.

Our Baptism is explained in Romans 6-8 and Colossians 2, and in Corinthians.

Calvinism is very much like Mormonism. Joseph Smith came up with many of his ideas from the Calvinists doctrine. I remember hearing a Calvinist teach that we were all spirits before coming to earth, and that is how God knew us before hand.

WRONG!!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


maybe God wants reveal something to her by the teachings of Calvin. He explains things pretty good. The Holy Spirit works through many people to reveal His Word.

Sorry but thats not a man's job. Not any more.


John 14:25,26
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How many times have thousands of people gone astray from listening to one man who comes in the name of Christ? Jesus warned us MANY times in scripture about these people. Apparently the warnings have fallen on deaf ears.
---JackB on 12/9/11


1 John 2:26,27

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
---JackB on 12/9/11


And what's with "They are nearly the same, but not the same."? You're confused aren't you?
---christan on 12/9/11

I have no confusion and no problem aligning my viewpoint with these passages.

What is this "death" in these contexts? Is it not physical death it is separation from God. How are we separated from God and what does that mean in the context of a man's spirit? It can mean two things, one that the spirit is dead or two that the spirit does not exist.

If it means our spirit is dead, then it is resurrected or transformed by God. Therefore, is not new in never existed before. That is incorrect, because the word new in "new creation" indicates that it never existed before.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/9/11


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Jack, I told her that because reading Scripture has not done it, maybe God wants reveal something to her by the teachings of Calvin. He explains things pretty good. The Holy Spirit works through many people to reveal His Word. Because those people have His Word already from Scripture. I hope it helps you. Not trying to be funny. His teachings and many others are very good. Their teachings are done in a systemtic way. What comes first, God, and then everything else, they can help you too, peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/11


--- please then tell us where are the OT saints since the day they died in the flesh? ---christan on 12/9/11


Hebrews 12:22-24
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Jesus is in Heaven RIGHT, and LOOK at who is with Him NOW. The Spirits of JUST men made perfect were OT Saints who were made PERFECT at Jesus Resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


The Reformed group changed the meaning of Born Again. This is why they killed the Anti-baptists.

Antibaptists believed in being Born Again as a Spiritual Birth from God, being Baptized into Christ's death and resurrection, and re-baptized anyone who truly had a true conversion. Calvin, who believed in infant baptism did not understand the NEW BIRTH according to scriptures, murdered TRUE Born Again, Born of God Christians.

The Anti-baptists will one day be a witness against the false doctrine of Calvin at the Great white Throne Judgement!

This is WHY MarkV made that aweful statement that teh Holy Spirit REALLY DOESN"T live in you, and that Jesus REALLY isn't in you.

Now I understand why he said that!
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


For more information pick-up a Calvin book to help you.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/11


Why would you even ask her to do this? Is scripture not enough? We don't need men to explain scripture to us. The Holy Spirit does that. Maybe thats where you went wrong. It seems you trusted another man's opinion of scripture rather than praying in the Holy Ghost and asking for wisdom and discernment.

I dont know about you but Id rather take the Lords explanation for what his scriptures mean rather than a man who murders in the name of Christ.
---JackB on 12/9/11


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"OT SAints had FAITH without being Born from Above first!" kathr

If there's even an ounce of truth to what you have spoken above, please then tell us where are the OT saints since the day they died in the flesh? I ask this is because by your conviction, it's in total contradiction to what Jesus declared in John 3:5. And according to your conviction they should not be in heaven at all, since they were not born of the Spirit right?

Your quotes from the Scriptures are all skewed towards your own twisted understanding and nothing like what is being taught by Jesus and His apostles in the epistles.
---christan on 12/9/11


"There is no scriptural basis for saying either every person has a dead spirit in them or every person has no spirit in them until new birth." Mark Eaton

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:10,11

This is a declaration by God that all are dead in sins and trespasses, since the day Adam sinned, confirmed again by Paul,

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Romans 5:12

And what's with "They are nearly the same, but not the same."? You're confused aren't you?
---christan on 12/9/11


1 John 3:9
Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God's seed abides in them, they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. (meaning eternally secure)

If all that God did was revive??/ the spirit of man from the fall, it would only relult in going back to the state Adam and Eve were before the fall.

And if that were true, just sinning again, would result in death over again.

That is WHY one must be Born of GOD. This is why Jesus came, because our New Birth is from the Man ABOVE and not below.

One must be Born of GOD to enter the Kingdom of God or even see it. Our life is IN CHRIST alone.

To as many as receive HIM, to them gave He the power to become SONS OF GOD, who are BORN OF GOD!
---kathr4453 on 12/9/11


Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, ....
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11

Who? Israel. Both Houses. Heb8:8/Jer 31:31. Selah.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the "whole house of" Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

14And shall put my spirit in you, ye shall live, I shall place you in your own land:then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

16Moreover, thou son of man,take thee one stick, write upon it, For Judah,for the children of Israel his companions:then take another stick,write upon it, For Joseph,stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
---Trav on 12/9/11


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Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Here is the promise of the New Covenant.

God said. I will put MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU....God's Spirit. Nothing about bringing to life our spirit.

The SOUL that sinneth it shall die. And when Adam /Eve sinned, sin entered the world. In Adam ALL DIE.

Jesus came to redeem our SOUL, not our Spirit.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah

Having God's Spirit WITHIN os not the same as the Spirit UPON.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


The promise of the Father and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are one and the same thing. Luke 24:49

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: ---Act 1:4,5 ---but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The promise of the Father could not come until Christ left this world. John 16:7

The disciples were to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father. Act 1:4, 5
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


Kathr, there is no truth in what you say. Alot of talk and when you post a verse, you twisted it so that it can mean many things, just as you do the rest of Scripture. When God said you will surely die, he did die that day, his own spirit died. Separated from God. He did not die a physical death. His death was spiritual. It does not mean the spirit of God died, his own spirit died. When God, through the Holy Spirit brings someone to spiritual life, He brings the person's own spirit to life, makes them able to see, hear, understand spiritual matters, and gives them a new heart, and then indwells them with the Spirit of Christ, and seals them forever. For more information pick-up a Calvin book to help you.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/11


---
---christan on 12/8/11

That's where you are so very wrong, and this is where there is a total conflict in the TRUTH of Faith and calvins's lie concerning faith.

OT Saints looked forward to the Cross, and didn't receive the Promise of the Spirit JUST AS HEBREWS 11 STATES. They died without receiving the Promise...

YET they were still saved, proving one does not have to be born again FIRST to have faith.

And that is it in a nutshell, concerning the false doctrine of Calvinism, who simply cannot grasp OT Saints lived under the Old Covenant and the Promise of the Spirit was with the NEW COVENANT that didn't come into effect unlil Jesus died and rose again.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


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Hebrews 11: 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

OK Christan, what EXACTLY was the PROMISE they did not receive? Salvation, or the Holy Spirit? AND why did they have to wait for us to be PERFECT?

Even Galatians qualifies that the Promise was the Promise of the Holy Spirit.


OT SAints had FAITH without being Born from Above first!
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


Every descendant of Adam carries with him a spirit dead to God.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11

I say this again, this is conjecture.

There is no scriptural basis for saying either every person has a dead spirit in them or every person has no spirit in them until new birth. They are nearly the same, but not the same.

If I had a dead spirit in me and it came alive, then the word used to describe that would be metamorphosis or transformation. But these words are not used. What is used is new, completely new, never existed before new.

And remember, John 3:3 can be translated "unless a person is born anew" and also translated "born from above".
---Mark_Eaton on 12/8/11


Kathrine, now you call God a liar, when will it stop? If Adam did not die at the moment he sinned, then you are calling God a liar.

---Mark_V. on 12/8/11

When did I ever say Adam did not die the moment he sinned?

Where do you come up with these bazzar comments?
IN ADAM ALL DIE. In Christ will all be made ALIVE.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


Where MarkV has it wrong is this. Adam and Eve did not possess the SPIRIT OF GOD in them. If they had, they would have ETERNAL LIFE just as we do today who have the "Spirit of GOD" in us. The Spirit of GOD cannot DIE!

The Spirit of MAN is not the same thing as the Spirit of GOD.

The SOUL that sinneth it shall die.

God put "HIS SPIRIT" in us when we were Born Again.We have the SPIRIT of the LIFE OF CHRIST in us, His RISEN LIFE! and That is eternal life.

God did not rebirth the spirit of ma.

Many OT scriptures talk about the spirit of man...both good and evil people. God took HIS SPIRIT OFF OF King Saul, not out from in him.
Was Saul Born Again?
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


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"OT Saints certainly did commune with God, however were not BORN AGAIN..." kathr

Jesus declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5. By your understanding, OT saints then will not be entering heaven because they were not born of the Spirit, right? How can that be? Where are they now?

Try explaining Hebrews 11, because it speaks of all the OT saints who have what the Christians have, FAITH which is a gift from God. According to Scriptures, if one is not born of the Spirit, he will never receive FAITH from God and can never enter heaven.

What twisted gospel are you teaching?
---christan on 12/8/11


MarkV: What part of God's Word don't you understand?

Let's do this again to HUMOR MARKV!

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life,

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us,)
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


1.1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


Hebrews 2

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/11


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Kathrine, now you call God a liar, when will it stop? If Adam did not die at the moment he sinned, then you are calling God a liar.

"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die"

In the day, not another day, or 930 years, but in the day. You question the very Word of God. Everything is wrong to you, you should have studied Calvinism. You still did not answer the question, do you believe in "The Eternal Begotten Son of God?."
---Mark_V. on 12/8/11


Christan, the first Adam was a life giving soul. The Last Adam was a life giving Spirit.

WHY is that so hard to understand.

Adam & Eve were not indwelt with the Life of Christ or Spirit of God making then born of God. We have been Begotten again, that is Born Again to a living Hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

OT Saints certainly did commune with God, however were not BORN AGAIN, or Begotten again from the Dead BY the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Prophets, Priests and Kings were anointed by the Holy Spirit, but not Born Again of the Spirit of the Resurrected Christ.

Hannah prayed to God and God heard her prayers.

And because you don't know teh difference,you have mislead many.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/11


1 Corinthians 15:45-47
King James Version (KJV)


45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy, the second man is the Lord from heaven.

This is what Calvinists fail to understand.

I think there is this idea our spirit died at the fall and when we accept Christ our dead Spirit is revived. WRONG!
---kathr4453 on 12/7/11


"... (v.2) And do not be conformed to this world, "but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, Mark_V. on 12/7/11

Ephesians 4:22-24


22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Our Old Adam and old adams mind is done away at calvary. It's the NEW CREATURE who is created in righteousness and holiness. If that were not so, there would be no need to be crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/11


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Kathr, you didn't answer the question. "Do you believe in the Eternal Begotten Son of God?" You said you didn't. You believe in the Begotten Son of God because you believe "He was created a Son and not eternal." Just as all the cults. And until you believe He is Eternal begotten Son, you have no life in you. You cannot speak of spiritual things, because the carnal mind is at enmity against God, because those who are in the flesh cannot please God, as you said, those believes are from the pit of hell.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11


Many don't understand that when God created the man, He created them tripatite - body, soul and spirit. (conf. 1 Thess 5:23)
---christan on 12/7/11

I don't know if this is directed to me but I will respond to this by saying this is conjecture on your part and on my part.

The 1 Thess 5 passage confirms the trinity of parts within us, but does not express if this exists within all people or only in the intended audience of the Book, namely believers in Christ.

To say that the "spirit" part of humans exists within unbelievers I feel negates the "totally new, never before existed" new creation we become when we accept Christ. If it exists, then it is transformed or altered but it is not entire new.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/7/11


Mark E, Christan is correct. What you are suggesting is to illimate man's imputed sin from Adam, and all passages that speak of the fall and how it effects us. Adam died on that day, not physically but spiritually. Separated from God. Every descendant of Adam carries with him a spirit dead to God. He must be born again from above, not physically, but spiritually (John 3:3). Common sense tells us that if a man is so fallen so to be at emnity with God, that enmity must be removed before he can have any desire to do God's will. If a sinner is to desire redemption through Christ, he must receive a new disposition. He must be born again from above.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11


Many don't understand that when God created the man, He created them tripatite - body, soul and spirit. (conf. 1 Thess 5:23)

The body is the vessel which the soul and spirit resides, for now while we're in the flesh. The soul is the one that sin against God and the spirit is where the man has no communication with God after the fall of Adam & Eve. And this is without exception until the sinner is born of the Spirit by the will of God.

For the Christian, he knows that this flesh will have to return to dust and when that is fulfilled, he await the new and glorified body when Christ returns on Judgement Day. His soul is the one that God sanctifies wile in the flesh and his spirit being born of God's Spirit does not sin anymore.
---christan on 12/7/11


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To be born of the Spirit as I understand it is to come alive to Christ spiritually. are you saying that is not so?
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11

Wow, how did you get any of that from what I posted.

Before you were born of your mother, did you exist physically? No, and the new man did not exist before you were born of the Spirit.

I believe there is a correlation between physical birth and spiritual birth.

I believe that every man is born with a body and soul, but only those born again of God have a spirit. This new birth really establishes something new, your spirit which is from God.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/7/11


The New Birth is a transformation, if it wasn't then at rebirth we would be complete and perfect, and we are not.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11
At our New Birth we are Complete IN CHRIST and made PERFECT through the Blood of Christ...The Blood of Bulls and Goats could never make anyone PERFECT.

The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of the Lord are have TWO DIFFERENT ministries.

We have the Spirit of the LIFE OF CHRIST making us a New Creature. The Holy Spirit is who is our teacher, comforter etc, but again the Holy Spirit did not die on a cross and rise again, and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Last MAN ADAM who is that life giving Spirit.

MarkV IS TEACING NEW AGE and NOT the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST.

CHRIST is our Life.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/11


What people need to ask MarkV here is, do YOU believe in the Only Begotten Son or Not? You accuse me and lie over that I do not, and that is a LIE from Hell, yet, you in words actually deny His Existance as our New LIFE by giving the Holy Spirit, who never was made Flesh as our LIFE.

I am not Crucified with the Holy Spirit, I wasn't baptized into the Holy Spirit, And the Holy Spirit is NOT the Head of the Church.

Oh then you try to wiggle out of this by saying "They are ALL God"...But that doesn't resolve the issue does it? Then you are denying the Trinity.

Then you said...Jesus REALLY isn't in you. You do not understand salvation at all.

Colossians 3:1-4 you completely deny! CHRIST IS OUR LIFE.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/11


So the real question here is:

Are we "re-birthed" through the Holy Spirit,


OR


are we Born Again through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

IF markv tells us OT Saints were Born Again, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, again he does not understand WHY Jesus died and rose again.

MarkV's definition of re-birth, even is used improperly, does not address his false doctrine of OT Saints being Born Again.

The Holy Spirit's ministry is to empower the Word to our conscience, yet one can REJECT and deny the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit draws you to CHRIST CRUCIFIED!

Heb 6 tells us what happens to those who deny this enlightening of truth.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/11


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Mark E, before I answer you I want to make sure you are saying what I think you are saying.
Are you suggesting that all desendancts of Adam are not born spiritually dead? Is that correct? And that when God said in the day you eat of that tree you will surely die? And that on that day they didn't?
To be born of the Spirit as I understand it is to come alive to Christ spiritually. are you saying that is not so?
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11


When the Holy Spirit brings us spiritual life at regeneration, we began to be transformed,
"But we all, (believers) with unvelied face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, "are being transformed" into the same image from glory to glory, "just as by the Spirit of the Lord" ( 2 Cor. 3:18).

"... (v.2) And do not be conformed to this world, "but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" (Romans 12:1,2).
The New Birth is a transformation, if it wasn't then at rebirth we would be complete and perfect, and we are not.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/11


semantics...based on different understandings of each word or phrase...
---micha9344 on 12/6/11


New Birth.

New (in this context) means that it is entirely new. It is not something old remade into something new, as in the renovation of an old building. This is also not transformation (metamorphosis) either. If it not being changed from an old state into a new state.

No. This new thing did not exist before it was made. Our new spirit did not exist before it was born of God.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/6/11


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kathr4453, you are mistaken. There have always been the righteous and sinuous since the children of mankind. Jesus says, I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Jesus was telling the religious man that keeping the rule and regulations and ceremonies is not good enough, for he was spiritually dead which is equal to the condemned sinner, and that he needed the Spirit in order to be acceptable to God.
---Eloy on 12/6/11


Eloy, thank you for your comments, they are very true. I believe this blog was put up by Kathr to entice me to sin. To argue every point of salvation, from the deity of Christ, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, to every aspect of Scripture. Twisting Scripture passages is a sin. If only she believed in the eternal Begotten Son of God, she would understand Scripture and her intentions would be godly one's.
---Mark_V. on 12/6/11


Eloy, that is exactly what Nichodemius thought...how can one be born all over again, or reborn, or go back into their mothers womb to be reborn.


The NEW creature/NEW MAN in Christ has NEVER exsted prior to their birth IN CHRIST.

And this is exactly what Jesus told Nichodemius.

We are Born Again by the WORD OF GOD!

Our Old man flesh is crucified with Christ, and it is CHRIST who is our Life.

Christ is the first born from the dead. Without His death and resurrection, you could never be Born Again IN CHRIST at all. and NO ONE, not even Calvinists were ever PREBORN of God.

One birth is FLESH, and one Birth is SPIRIT! No one was ever RE_BORN of the Spirit of GOD IN YOU!,.
---kathr4453 on 12/6/11


Philip, you are mistaken, and Cluny is correct. The prefix "re-" has more than one definition. It can mean "back", as in "return", but in this scripture, "Re-born" it does not mean rehabilitated nor refurbished as you are mistaken, but rather it clearly means, "born-again" or "born over again". This correct defintion is substantiated in detail by the scriptures themselves: "And a new heart will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." Ezk.36:26.
---Eloy on 12/5/11


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Phillip, that's exactly how I understand it too.

And whenever I hear of rebirth, I also think of New Agers. Having worked for an Apologetics Ministry, I guess that has helped me understand and now that I do, it is clear as clear can be.

Yes, it is a shame people want to curse first before checking out the facts.
---kathr4453 on 12/5/11


**Anything that is "re" is "new".
**
FALSE. Anything that is "re" is a remake, not something new.
If I (re)heat my food, it's not new food, it's reheated.

The idea of "re" comes from a Theology of being rehabilitated.

Christians are not rehabilitated, re-heated, re-built, re-constructed, re-modeled, or re-born.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. You were never first born of the spirit to be re-born of the spirit again.

RE is the correct term for re-incarnation, or in Buddhism of being a rebirth.

If you don't know the difference, I implore you to find out the truth and study to show yourselves approved.
---Phillip on 12/5/11


\\Rebirth or New Birth?

Since neither are in the bible I say either or.\\

Wrong again, francis, as in most of what you say.

In fact, in the ORIGINAL GREEK NT, the word ANAGEGENNEMENOI appears in 1 Peter 1:23, which means "reborn" (the verb form of the noun "rebirth."

Doesn't it bother you to say things that have no basis in reality?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/5/11


I find it a shame that we have to have New Age teaching mixed with Christianity, and when addressed, those teaching the New Age of rebirth are up in arms.

We as Christians should be up in arms, and pointing out these false teachers.

Good Job kathr. Keep up the good work.
---Phillip on 12/5/11


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A-men Cluny. Jesus told Nicodemus, a religious chief of the Jews, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a person be born of the Spirit, that one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Whom obeying to the Son has everlasting life, but whom disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on that one. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, to them that believe on his name: which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn.3:5,36+ 1:12,13.
---Eloy on 12/5/11


What's this "born again Christian"? Is there a Christian that's not born of the Holy Spirit? I think not.
---christan on 12/5/11


Kathr, coming from you, all you said means nothing to me. The real question is, "Do you believe in the Eternal Son of God?"
Have you changed your mind? If you have, it does not show it.
---Mark_V. on 12/5/11


kathr4453, what is REALLY wrong with you? This question/post sounds like you posted it just to bait Mark_V.

When you teach in a demeaning tone of voice using the words GROW UP, did Jesus ever say that to any of his disciples? Even Judas whom He knew would betray him, didn't say, GROW UP Judas, you're going to hell.

The letter of the law KILLS, it is the Spirit that gives live and you do not sound like you are teaching from your Spirit. You are teaching from your head and head knowledge doesn't do a darn thing for anyone.
---anon on 12/5/11


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Well, I sure don't want that same old me to be born all over again!!!!
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/4/11


Actually MarkV, it is the Born Again Christian, one who has received the NEW BIRTH that knows the difference. One who has not been Born Again, use words like "rebirth" that the majority of people know is referring to re-incarnation.

OR maybe there are SMARTER more intelligent Born Again Christians who read and have a broader understanding than you.

SO to make a rediculous comment as you just did only puts you in the category of one who SHOULD NOT be instructing others....especially when you are wrong, you can't admit it, usig insults calling that person unsaved. THAT is only your FLESH talking, NOT GOD!!!

GROW UP, and maybe then God CAN use you to teach.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/11


Kathr, the question is, do you know the difference? In order to know the difference Scripturally, you need to be born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 12/4/11


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